Issue 2X: old powersets revamp?
By
Aura_Familia,
Posted on: 2012-04-11 09:23 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
My only issue is that Broadsword and Katana are basically the same powerset with different animations, something that power and weapon customization has now pretty much made unnecessary. It'd be nice if one or the other was tweaked a little to play up their differences, with the animations and weapons being ported over to each other.
Unless that was already done and I missed it. 
Quote:
Agreed, and I get the impression the development team agrees, as well. There were comments on various Dark Blast threads about how bad it was the set had a snipe, with a red name (I want to say it was Synapse, but I don't remember) said that these were misdirected complaints since they would be doing something to snipes in the not too distant future. Nothing concrete was said, but it left an impression that we should stop complaining about the set having a snipe since snipes would stop sucking at some point.|
Originally Posted by Zortel
Snipe Attacks for Blasters/Corruptors/Defenders/Patron Pools
|
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Zortel
Crashing Nukes for the above AT's
|
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Zortel
Regeneration: The Rez power (perhaps resetting integration/reconstruction's recharge, or providing a lingering and decreasing to 0% regen buff) ,Instant Healing (Maybe looking at the duration or recharge time), Resilience (Adding Slow Res)
|
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Zortel
Masterminds: High Endurance cost of attack powers, possibly boosting the attack powers to help pets (like Demon's -res, Beast's movement debuffs)
|
This is another case where a power's drawbacks worked so well everyone just agreed to skip it. Ultimately, the point of having powers in powersets is to make people WANT them, with drawbacks only existing to make sure people want all of them, not just some of them. Instead, these drawbacks have ensured that quite a few otherwise really cool powers never get used.
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Zortel
Stone Armour: Lack of being able to jump just enough to clear a very tiny ledge or floor pipe that otherwise means having to retoggle even though it'd be easy to lift a leg that high to step onto/over it.
|
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
|
Quote:
That's been the case since before Launch. Katana and Broadsword have essentially none of the same numbers for anything. Animation speeds, recharge speeds, effect strengths and so forth are significantly different between the two sets. What's similar between them is the overall set design.
|
Originally Posted by BadWolf
My only issue is that Broadsword and Katana are basically the same powerset with different animations, something that power and weapon customization has now pretty much made unnecessary. It'd be nice if one or the other was tweaked a little to play up their differences, with the animations and weapons being ported over to each other.
Unless that was already done and I missed it. |
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
|
Quote:
Oh ho ho...really?|
Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
Gimmicks are not a good thing or a bad thing, they're just a thing. Gimmicks don't make a set better, just different.
|
Are we going with this argument?
I mean, yeah, sure. That works. Assassin's Focus is definitely a gimmick that makes Stalkers 'different'. And it certainly didn't make them 'better Stalkers'. So yeah, I guess you're right. Sure wish they would have fixed the issues with the AT though.
Quote:
| Battle Axe, War Mace, Broadsword and Katana appeal to "peeps" well enough as it is. Some of us actually prefer the simpler, more straightforward melee combat of the past where I didn't have to be multi-tasking three different gimmicks at once, and all of those sets will be considerably less interesting if you tried to mess with them. |
Yeah, thanks. Posters that say this *really* make me think they care for those 'peeps' that are well enough. Basically a "don't touch the stuff I like but sure, screw with the stuff those guys like...I don't like it so yeah, go ahead and eff with that to your hearts content".
Thanks a bunch, guys.
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Bosstone
Forcefield is boring, but it works. Old Energy Aura didn't work. |
Yeah, I am playing my Claws/EA brute *right now* after having put him away for a while (other projects and/or characters come up and so I shift around a lot). He's just as strong as he was before. He soloed at +2/x4 then and he solos at +2/x4 now, without IOs and with the same relative difficulty.
EA worked fine then, it's only better because they added a +rech utility power. How they changed everything else up was only to please the masses, which is most likely what the OP is talking about.
But yeah, there have been changes that screw with characters too that don't make me want to play them. Removing Repulse and replacing it with Disrupt just soiled my Kin/EA stalker so I just don't play him. Sure, lots of people hated Repulse but it's not like what they replaced it with is all that much more welcomed. So yeah, just loving the concept doesn't mean you'll love the end product...without a knockback aura, he does not work against his Primal Earth counterpart.
Quote:
|
Sets that are boring but work are best updated by judiciously adding in secondary effects that enhance but do not otherwise change the set's gameplay. It's a limited kind of updating, but it's the best way to make everyone happy. This was the case with the Assassin's Strike change, and from what I understand was mostly the case with the Grav Control changes. It's either that or the devs work with the community who plays that set to see if there's something they all agree they don't like, which can then be overhauled. That's rare and time-consuming, though. Really, the more people who play a set, the less you can do to tweak it, and vice versa. When almost nobody is playing a set, you can do massive overhauls without upsetting anyone, but if there's a lot of people who like it, even a small tweak can raise a shitstorm. Devs have access to those statistics, and if enough people like Energy Blast, then they're not going to pay too much attention to people who say Energy Blast needs an overhaul. |
Electric Blast- I like the idea of a 'mana burn' type of effect. I wonder, if one can have a scaling chance of damage vs a target's HP levels, if one can scale the same chance vs a target's END levels. Basically, add an improved chance of more damage depending on the levels of END of a target. Yeah, you've got Endurance Drain and -Recovery that lowers that, but once you bottom out the target, they're helpless anyway.
Force Field- Someone mentioned the new absorb mechanic. I'd like that added to both Sonic and FF in some fashion. Also, adding -range debuff to some of FF's powers would make their knockback more effective, IMO.
Regen- probably not change the core of the set, but adding some substantial debuff resists may make it a bit more unique without overpowering it. -Movement, -Rech, -Heal and even -Def resistance so whatever buffing it gets, it keeps more of it.
BA/WM/BS/Kat- I don't see adding anything really doing much for them. Probably a purchasable animation set that you can swap would be nice...Don't really have any BA or WM tweek ideas, but maybe a kind of 'two-hands' temporary buff that lets one of your attacks auto-crit/do extra damage for Broadsword and a 'iaido' temporary buff that increases the arc/range of your AoE powers for Katana...
Dual Pistols- Not mentioned, but the swap ammo mechanic needs help. Staff's perfection mechanic seems so much better in every way and yet they're bot paid-for sets...why is this?
The main reason I don't play my FF/Energy defender more is not that her powers are lame, it's simply that I've been playing her (on and off) for seven years and I have other alts. (That, and she ICly spends most of her time battling evil in another dimension.)
Samuel Tow has already explained why some people like "boring" powers and don't want everything to have some "gimmick." What he said goes for me too.
My characters at Virtueverse
Faces of the City
Quote:
You're a classy guy.
|
Originally Posted by Leo_G
Aaaannd, we'll just go ahead and **** on that opinion and go on to discussing possible tweeks to sets because, lol are we suppose to care now?
|
De minimis non curat Lex Luthor.
Quote:
Setting their damage mod to 2.0 would have had pretty much the same effect - Stalkers deal more damage - with considerably less effort. Balance issues aside, a stat boost would have sufficed, the development team simply chose another gimmick to add to Stalkers other eleventy of 'em.|
Originally Posted by Leo_G
I mean, yeah, sure. That works. Assassin's Focus is definitely a gimmick that makes Stalkers 'different'. And it certainly didn't make them 'better Stalkers'. So yeah, I guess you're right. Sure wish they would have fixed the issues with the AT though.
|
Your insensitive sarcasm is welcome as always, but it misses the point entirely. Sets that need to be made better can be made better in ways OTHER than adding gimmicks to them.
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Leo_G
Yeah, thanks. Posters that say this *really* make me think they care for those 'peeps' that are well enough. Basically a "don't touch the stuff I like but sure, screw with the stuff those guys like...I don't like it so yeah, go ahead and eff with that to your hearts content".
|
Leo, some days I feel like you respond to these threads for no reason other than to put people down. While I generally don't have a problem with arguments on the forums - that's what they're here for - I still prefer if we could stick to the thread and not toss around accusations for each other. I know you didn't direct that comment at me, but the point remains: Leave the posters alone and stick to the topic, please.
---
Should old sets be improved? Yes, they should, in cases where they under-perform or are using awkward mechanics (Crane Kick chance for critical hit)/ Should sets be revamped and turned into different-feeling sets by the inclusion of gimmicks? No. Why would they be? If you want to introduce a new gimmick, do it in a new set. There's no reason to mess with an old set that people already like how it is.
Honestly, I've lost enough content I liked in this game to the horrid argument of making it "better," only for it to return considerably worse (new Atlas Park vs. old Altas Park + Galaxy City, for instance) that I would really like a much more solid argument in favour of this than "peeps might like it more" with no backing or confirmation. Trying to browbeat me into submission with sarcasm isn't going to change my mind. If anything - and you know this well enough - it's just going to make me dig my heels, and that's how communication breaks down.
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
|
Quote:
Yeah, don't take me too seriously though.|
Originally Posted by Bosstone
You're a classy guy.
|
I just feel that's what people are doing with they say stuff like what was said. And every time I would go to mention my opinion, it's basically a 'who cares?' result.
No actual disrespect to you, Bosstone, just expressing the issues that come with such discussion.
Quote:
I think it's related to the 'ganging up' subtone I read when people start responding to the OP or generally viable viewpoints with dismissiveness or by arguing things the OP never mentioned.|
Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
Leo, some days I feel like you respond to these threads for no reason other than to put people down. While I generally don't have a problem with arguments on the forums - that's what they're here for - I still prefer if we could stick to the thread and not toss around accusations for each other. I know you didn't direct that comment at me, but the point remains: Leave the posters alone and stick to the topic, please. |
Quote:
| Should old sets be improved? Yes, they should, in cases where they under-perform or are using awkward mechanics (Crane Kick chance for critical hit)/ Should sets be revamped and turned into different-feeling sets by the inclusion of gimmicks? No. Why would they be? If you want to introduce a new gimmick, do it in a new set. There's no reason to mess with an old set that people already like how it is. |
Old Gravity Control with Fold Space? Yeah, but the whole rest of the set is the same. Katana getting unique animations? Probably the closest to changing the feel of a powerset without actually changing any of the underlaying mechanics/numbers.
Frankly, I think you're putting words in the OP's mouth if you think he meant smashing Ice Control to pieces and making it a whole new set...
Quote:
And when you bring the "mechanically underperforming" sets up to par (whatever that means to you) and make them "equivalent" to every other set (again whatever that means to you) then we'll be playing "City of Cookie-Cutter Clones". That's even assuming you could make this pseudo-pipedream of yours actually work. |
Originally Posted by Draeth Darkstar
Forgive me for being rude, but this is a stupid argument.
I don't recall seeing anyone complain about the huge host of buffs and usability changes that Gravity Control or Energy Aura just got, for recent examples. Nobody cried when Fiery Aura was made a good offensive armor choice again in Going Rogue, completely changing how two of its powers worked in the process. Mechanically underperforming sets should absolutely be brought up to par, or at least as close to par as possible without creating a new FotM, even if it comes at the expense of the feel of one or two powers - because at the end of it all, the people who love those sets love them conceptually, and after a day adjusting to the changes, they'll be the happiest of all that their favorite set is now as good as the other options on the table. |
Thanks but I'd rather get the measured, incremental improvements we ALREADY get now than to try to have all the powersets in the game work "equally" well to each other. That's not powerset diversity - that's having everyone be locked into being identical. You may not like my take on this, but it is highly debatable which of us has the more "stupid" unrealistic position on this. *shrugs*
Loth 50 Fire/Rad Controller [1392 Badges] [300 non-AE Souvenirs]
Ryver 50 Ele� Blaster [1392 Badges]
Silandra 50 Peacebringer [1138 Badges] [No Redside Badges]
--{=====> Virtue ♀
Quote:
It's more a case of latching onto the supposed need for gimmicks in order for a set to be seen as popular and not being that interested in the rest. I know that's the case for me, and it seems evident that that's the case for quite a few others. The problem, really, is that the OP makes an assertion which flies in the face of convention and offers no argument to back it up aside from "old stuff is old." It's the combination of these that personally irks me.|
Originally Posted by Leo_G
I think it's related to the 'ganging up' subtone I read when people start responding to the OP or generally viable viewpoints with dismissiveness or by arguing things the OP never mentioned.
|
That, and gimmicks. I've been an opponent of gimmicks very much since Dual Blades, and I remain one to this day. Gimmicks utterly ruined Dual Pistols for me, as I consider Swap Ammo to be a major cause for the set's poor performance in my eyes. Yes, the slooow animations contribute to this, but the gimmick is also at fault. For the longest time, sets have had to pay for their gimmicks with raw performance, usually being forced to mess with the gimmick just to break even. It wasn't until Titan Weapons where a set's gimmick actually allowed it to be STRONGER for having it than it would have been if it hadn't had it. Synapse wasn't kidding when he said he'd have to gut many of the powers if he stripped their requirement to have Momentum to use them.
My central point that gimmicks don't make a set "better," so they're not the one-size-fits-all solution to making a set more desirable. As a point of fact, one of the key draws for some of these old sets is that they DON'T have a gimmick. If a bird in the hand is worth two in the bush, then it really doesn't make sense to change old sets and cross your fingers. Make new ones for new gimmicks, and focus on just giving old sets the kind of stats they need to measure up, if they even need them.
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Leo_G
I'm pretty sure that's what the OP meant. I mean, tell me a powerset that we have, so far, been completely revamped and turned into a different-feeling set? With the exclusion of Stalkers since that's an AT, I don't believe there have been any, only changes to powers/a power which I wouldn't consider to be a 'revamp'.
|
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Waylorn
Battle Axe/War Mace/Broad Sword/Katana - these stay on the same boat: they're not bad, they're simply...meh. New weapon sets just have more gimmicks, more interesting mechanics, more appeal than just whack-a-fu. Probably they just need something special, if not unique, to appeal peeps. Dual blades, for example, is not a wonderful set, but it feels unique in its way. Claws is another example of uniqueness in swift attacks and a nice mix of ranged and melee.
|
I don't want any more sets like Dual Blades. In fact, Synapse doesn't seem to want any more sets like Dual Blades since his take on the "combos" mechanic is greatly superior. Street Justice manages to capture the concept of stringing together combos without requiring me to follow its precise instructions step by step, but that just shows you that less gimmick is a better gimmick, at least in this case.
As for sets being changed into something COMPLETELY different, of course not. But I'm not talking about "completely" different, so much as having a different feel. It's as simple as a DB/SR Scrapper and a DB/SR Brute. Same powersets, same powers, same in-set gimmick, but the added gimmick of Fury turns the whole dynamic around. It's not a deep, complex mechanical change, it's as simple as adding a gimmick and the set becomes entirely different.
This comes into play a lot - people wanting to introduce gimmicks to old concepts. You were there for the thread about Johnny Butane... I mean, the thread about being concerned for Scrappers, and you saw what the suggestions there were like: Add gimmicks to them. I forget all the ideas, but there as here, if we're going to be "doing" something with old sets and ATs, I'd rather we messed with their basic stats than messed with their basic mechanics.
I like Broadsword because it's simple. I don't have to worry about combos, I don't have to worry about maintaining a buff, I don't have to worry about attack order, I just have to remember what each power does and simply wail on my enemies. I want that to remain, and I don't want it to be made even a smidgen more complex. If I want a more complex set, there are others which fit the bill, and I do play a Dual Blades Stalker - pretty much the pinnacle of gimmickness. Hell, that Stalker has so many gimmicks they blend together, since Assassin's Focus uses the same yellow ring over Assassin's Sttrike as my Empower and Weaken combos do.
My point is that old sets don't need to be changed for the sake of changing them. If we can prove that they're underperforming, then I'm open to suggestions that improve them, but only if they leave the set's core gamplay mechanics intact. I'm not against change per se, I'm against change that threatens to once again rob me of something I like for... No real reason other than because what I like happens to be old.
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
|
All the "boring" sets like broadsword, katana, battleaxe, mace, et cetera really need is some new animation options added to the power customization section of the character builder.
These sets fill the same conceptual niche as Willpower; a simple and straightforward powerset that fullfills its primary purpose without the need to micromanage anything. When I'm just in the mood to mindlessly slaughterize things I pop on my Claws/Willpower Scrapper and proceed to rip things to pieces without having to worry about power combos (or even build-up... that's handled automatically by mashing one of my attack buttons), defensive click-powers, or much of anything beyond where my next target is to be found.
And I agree with what others have posted above... as more and more new sets get gimmicks, the very fact that a set doesn't have one actually becomes that set's gimmick.
As much as I love Broad Sword, War Mace and Katana... Battle Axe seems lacking to me. Maybe it's the animations but I seriously doubt it.
I'm nowhere near the number cruncher that some people are but I can't seem to get hooked on Battle Axe even with a solid concept that I enjoy.
Any thoughts? I would especially like to hear from people who DO like the set considering I want to like it. Though, I'm repeatedly told that if I want an axe go with the one in Titan Weapons.
Quote:
For whatever it is worth:|
Originally Posted by stevie_james
As much as I love Broad Sword, War Mace and Katana... Battle Axe seems lacking to me. Maybe it's the animations but I seriously doubt it.
I'm nowhere near the number cruncher that some people are but I can't seem to get hooked on Battle Axe even with a solid concept that I enjoy. Any thoughts? I would especially like to hear from people who DO like the set considering I want to like it. Though, I'm repeatedly told that if I want an axe go with the one in Titan Weapons. |
I often feel like the weapon options in Battle Axe really hold it back for me and my enjoyment.
I've never actually made one, so I can't speak to playing one, but one of the biggest reasons I've never made one is because the weapon choices just never seem to appeal to me.
I think, mostly, they just seem too small. I don't want ginormous axes, but just something slightly more super.
@Zethustra
"Now at midnight all the agents and the superhuman crew come out
and round up everyone that knows more than they do"-Dylan
and round up everyone that knows more than they do"-Dylan
Quote:
This can't happen. Thought experiment.|
Originally Posted by Lothic
And when you bring the "mechanically underperforming" sets up to par...
|
Imagine you change the lowest-performing set of each archetype, so that it was universally recognized to be the highest-performing set (yes, I realize this is impossible, bear with me).
You have not removed the lowest-performing set. You've simply changed it's name (and brought it's performance up, at least somewhat). There's still a "worst set", and there always will be.
So you repeat the process, taking the second lowest-performing set, and make it the new best set. Well, you've only done the same thing - there's still a best set, and there's still a worst set.
And so on.
The current situation - with virtually every archetype having a range of "good-better-best" powersets (...and maybe the occasional "bad") - is, in that sense, optimal.
Note that I'm not arguing against bringing up significantly underperforming powersets (or archetypes, like Blasters). That's a different question. Everything should be within spittin' distance of "average", for certain undefinable values of "spittin' distance".
+1 for giving new sets a break for just one issue and really bringing the old sets up to standard.
@Winter. Because I'm Winter. Period.
I am a blaster first, and an alt-oholic second.
Ohh, I love these threads 
Quote:
The problem with electric is two-fold, an all or nothing secondary effect and the lack of a Tier 3 single target blast. Give Tesla Cage damage on par with Cosmic Burst from Radiation Blast, and at least damage-wise it'd be comparable to the other sets. Energy Blast's solution is pretty obvious, with its versibility and the fact that it accesses the Tier 3 attack by lvl 6, if it had knockdown instead of knockback in the AoE cone and spread-ball Energy would be one of the most popular sets in the game, even if numerically mediocre.|
Originally Posted by Waylorn
Electrical Blast and Energy Blast - hardly seeing anyone playing these.
|
Quote:
| Force Field - this is odd: it just adds def, some def and another bit of def to everyone that's already softcapped. Really useful just in low-mid lvls. Have no idea how to make it more yummy or something. |
Quote:
| Battle Axe/War Mace/Broad Sword/Katana - these stay on the same boat: they're not bad, they're simply...meh. New weapon sets just have more gimmicks, more interesting mechanics, more appeal than just whack-a-fu. Probably they just need something special, if not unique, to appeal peeps. Dual blades, for example, is not a wonderful set, but it feels unique in its way. Claws is another example of uniqueness in swift attacks and a nice mix of ranged and melee. |
Quote:
| Regeneration - good for pvp. whait, who said lolpvp? This one lost its uniqueness with the, albeit needed, old big nerf. Playing it nowadays in normal/high content is just asking for a hard beating. Needs something more than a bit of s/l res. |
Quote:
| Ice Melee - Uhm. Well, I just never ever played this one, so it may be an hidden treasure, lol. Seriously, a bit of touch may be needed, especially in the DPS department. |
Quote:
| Ninja and Mercenaries - Need some work to be on par with other MM sets. Some survivability tool for ninjas and attack cycles revamp, especially for the tier2 henchies, for mercs. Oh, and shorten the laughable recharge on serum, at least. |
Quote:
| I know it's a big pile of work, but I think it's needed to give more difference and variety to the playerbase. |
Quote:
I find this all to be a subjective viewpoint though. It takes the stance that, a gimmick is there, therefore it should be used...all the time. Why can't stuff be there just to be there and if you want to use it, use it and if you don't, then don't? Probably that was the whole complaint many had with Stalkers before: it has Assassin's Strike so it should use Assassin's Strike...all the time.|
Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
What everyone's referring to is this: The problem is what this paragraph seems to be suggesting. Dual Blades is a TERRIBLE set. Not in terms of performance, of course - it's pretty solid - but in terms of gameplay experience. Dual Baldes is probably second only to Dual Pistols in terms of having the worst, most intrusive, irritating gimmick in the game. |
But meh, that's rather beside the point.
The way I read the OP's post:
"Battle Axe/War Mace/Broad Sword/Katana - these stay on the same boat: they're not bad, they're simply...meh. New weapon sets just have more gimmicks, more interesting mechanics, more appeal than just whack-a-fu. Probably they just need something special, if not unique, to appeal peeps. Dual blades, for example, is not a wonderful set, but it feels unique in its way. Claws is another example of uniqueness in swift attacks and a nice mix of ranged and melee."The mention of DB being a 'not wonderful set' but feeling unique vs Claws which is a very similar set but is just as viable and unique. That's not saying make those other sets into something like DB, but add some flavor to them that can improve the set if needed or be as subtle and interesting as Claws is. He made both examples to distinguish between two possibilities.
Quote:
| The whole set is a "my way or the high way" thing, where either I dance to the set's tune, or I'm playing a weaker version of other sets. And you know for a fact that I have enough experience with the set to hold an opinion on it. |
It has been expressed that Dual Blades is better if you don't bother with the combos. The combos are there to help the guys not at the top min/maxed builds and/or unique fluff to the set. Considering Dual Blades is practically analogous to Claws, DB pays nothing except range and that its version of 'Focus' is slower, gaining instead combos. Of course, DB isn't going to get the endurance and recharge discounts that Claws gets...that's that set's unique 'thing'.
I don't see why you consider DB terrible unless you think Claws is terrible (maybe on a Stalker...). Unless you feel the range it gives up is more valuable than the extra 'dancing' you have to do.
Quote:
|
I don't want any more sets like Dual Blades. In fact, Synapse doesn't seem to want any more sets like Dual Blades since his take on the "combos" mechanic is greatly superior. Street Justice manages to capture the concept of stringing together combos without requiring me to follow its precise instructions step by step, but that just shows you that less gimmick is a better gimmick, at least in this case. As for sets being changed into something COMPLETELY different, of course not. But I'm not talking about "completely" different, so much as having a different feel. It's as simple as a DB/SR Scrapper and a DB/SR Brute. Same powersets, same powers, same in-set gimmick, but the added gimmick of Fury turns the whole dynamic around. It's not a deep, complex mechanical change, it's as simple as adding a gimmick and the set becomes entirely different. |
The problem with retrofitting the new mechanic into older DB is because their combos are greatly more powerful than StJ's combo/finisher gameplay. Yes, combos have their clunkiness and problems, but people have grown fond of them so changing it should be out of the question.
Quote:
| This comes into play a lot - people wanting to introduce gimmicks to old concepts. You were there for the thread about Johnny Butane... I mean, the thread about being concerned for Scrappers, and you saw what the suggestions there were like: Add gimmicks to them. I forget all the ideas, but there as here, if we're going to be "doing" something with old sets and ATs, I'd rather we messed with their basic stats than messed with their basic mechanics. |
All well and good, but that isn't the only way...just like a 'gimmick' doesn't have to be adding clunky combos. I mean, I *just* made a suggestion on ways to add 'gimmicks' to those sets without actually warping them into something else. I particularly like the idea of making Katana's redraw for the AoE powers like Flashing Steel and Golden Dragonfly into larger AoEs upon drawing them and making Broadsword's ST attacks higher powered upon drawing them to further their separate their function. Would you have to use those gimmicks to make the set worthwile? Not unless you feel the sets aren't worthwhile now without them. But sets that are penalized with redraw can have some solace in knowing they have something to capitalize on.
Quote:
| My point is that old sets don't need to be changed for the sake of changing them... |
Quote:
| If we can prove that they're underperforming, then I'm open to suggestions that improve them, but only if they leave the set's core gamplay mechanics intact... |
I'm still waiting for the community at large to at least admit that the changes made to Stalkers didn't actually help the AT but morphed them into something else entirely. So far, I've basically been met with 'Well I like them now so you're wrong!'. Wrong? As if I said they were better off before, just saying they could have been changed to help them instead of tossing them in the trash.
But they weren't as popular and slightly underperforming? Well, the mentioned sets aren't eeking out Dual Blades, Street Justice, Darkness Control, Time Manipulation and the like...
tl;dr
Your argument reflects other past contrary statements and perspectives. They're nearly mirror reflections too.
Quote:
I agree, and I want to take a stab at possibly describing what you're referring to. I believe you're less interested in an axe that's overall "bigger" so much as one with a longer hilt, which therefore makes wider swings when you attack with it.|
Originally Posted by Electric-Knight
I often feel like the weapon options in Battle Axe really hold it back for me and my enjoyment.
I think, mostly, they just seem too small. I don't want ginormous axes, but just something slightly more super. |
I agree that Battle Axe REALLY suffers from lack of weapon variety. Unlike Broadswrod, which has a fair few long, two-handed weapons in it and unlike War Mace, which has a few long-shafted maces, Battle Axe has pretty much all decidedly one-handed, short axes. You can make the axe head as big as you want, but when the shaft is only as long as my forearm, it's simply not big enough, because it's not big in the right way.
It's a simple matter of practical physics that the longer the weapon you swing is and the farther out its centre of gravity is, the more it will hurt when you hit somebody with it. Short weapons like the Gladius are primarily good for thrusting with, but battle axes are slashing weapons, and you really need a wide swing arc to slash with.
---
I will freely admit that I want to see new, unique animations for Broadsword, Battle Axe and War Mace. Of course I do. That'd be awesome! I also want to see entire new "weapon packs" for them, like what we had for Titan Weapons. Say, six new axes in a variety of sizes and themes. I'd buy that in a heartbeat. It would give the set a brand new fresh look and feel, yet it will remain the set I know and love on the inside, and I REALLY do love Battle Axe.
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
|
Quote:
I'll just reiterate that I agree with this too.|
Originally Posted by Titan_III
All the "boring" sets like broadsword, katana, battleaxe, mace, et cetera really need is some new animation options added to the power customization section of the character builder.
|
Not actually *adding* to Claws' animations, but after re-picking up my Claws/EA brute, respecing him (mainly more slots in 'Conserve Power' and removing the heal enhancements in Energy Drain to replace with a couple of +def enhancements), I also gave him the Leaping pool, which I hadn't before. I took and slotted Spring Attack and damnit if it doesn't just *fit* with Eviscerate! I know, lots of people hate Eviscerate, but have you tried it with Spring attack?
You've got a mob surrounding you while you're beating on the tough boss, then you simply LEAP straight up, come crashing down a bit behind the guys who were behind you (while still targeting the boss) then *FLIP* in the air for a vicious aerial swipe on everything in front of you!
It doesn't add animations to Claws but it makes one of the animations more relevant to me! And that's one thing that has really made my day playing this old character.
Quote:
What I'd like to see is "alternate powers"- at certain tiers you can choose between two powers, but can't take them both. One example would be letting Blasters choose between Build Up and a new defensive power.|
Originally Posted by Lothic
The problem with "tinkering" with sets like this is that you risk upsetting the people who actually like them the way they are now.
|
This way old sets could be freshened up without affecting players who like things as they are now.
This post is not a blanket NO to adjusting, fixing and tweaking things, so please don't take it that way.
What I believe to be the most elusive and problematic factor in determining under-performance of a powerset/AT, and the reasons for it, is accounting for playstyle and personal preference.
Among players, the personal perspective easily skews the reality of differentiation.
What style of play sets the standard for determining ineffectiveness? And if you use one playstyle, then is there no longer the wonderful differentiation for the players that do enjoy the outliers?
Should an mmorpg be about having every single AT and powerset capable of doing everything relatively the same way? The common perceptions of acceptability may not be enjoyed by everyone. Remove a reasonable amount of struggling from an AT or a powerset and does it lose the luster that made it appealing to others? Remove the oddities from powerset options and, sure, more players interested in one particular playstyle might choose any of the powersets, but should the grand scope of an mmorpg be to accommodate and maintain a standard or is it better to cater to differentiation?
Forget the number of people playing the specific powersets, as that is what only the developers know and then they can decide if it needs addressing.
What I am referring to is the actual direction of changes people wish for.
Should every powerset within an AT be able to stand toe-to-toe with their enemies in roughly the same fashion and succeed with roughly the same strategy?
If everything is basically equal on the main scale of complacently standing, attacking and surviving, then the balancing factor of the differences must also be equal... And if you equal out those differences... what would be different at all? Just the animations and effects?
Some people would love for /Devices to be made more like the other secondary powersets. Some people love the completely different way of successfully using that powerset (although, I think everyone agrees that Time Bomb could be fixed in a major way).
Devices may be the most extreme example there is.
Often times, it is the different nature of successfully using a powerset that makes some people dislike a powerset and/or claim that it is under-performing and requires help.
Often times, it is just a matter of personal preference. Much like different vehicles or even foods.
Harry might like the lighter, more maneuverable vehicle, while Frank prefers the heavier, more powerful vehicle.
I see a lot of Franks test drive Harry's vehicle and claim it needs to be fixed.
Anyway, this is not a post about never changing or fixing anything.
It is just a personal observation on the nature of perceived needs vs. acceptable differences.
And I had some time and some ramble in me.
@Zethustra
"Now at midnight all the agents and the superhuman crew come out
and round up everyone that knows more than they do"-Dylan
and round up everyone that knows more than they do"-Dylan
Quote:
You know, that just might make it an interresting set. Give Force Bolt and Repulsion Bomb a serious damage upgrade. On par with Blaster blasts (or maybe Corrs), but enough damage to actually want to use them as part of one's ST DPS (like Gloom on Brutes/Tankers) as it'd be a serious increase in their DPS and as one AOE damage (in the case of Repulsion Bomb), then give Repulsion Field a little damage to go along with it.|
Originally Posted by daveyj3
for forcefield i'd say up the dmg of force bolt, give repulsion field a little dmg too, and give force bubble a -to hit debuff or something O_O. then it would so be my favorite set evar.
|
Sure, RF would KB everything, but no worries there!
But I wouldn't say give it -tohit. Something instead I think, is to give Dispersion Bubble (the highest amount) and the Ally bubbles some -Defense Debuff resistance.
You increase the damage output of a Force Fielder by other means than -Regen or -Resist (OH HEY LOOK! I just have better DPS!) and the DDR could make people want them more than the Icers.
BTW: I have nothing against Icers, and still love FFers on the team. But FF could use some love.
BrandX Future Staff Fighter
The BrandX Collection
I'd love it if Electrical Blast received a third single target attack that isn't the snipe or hold...
As an energy/energy blaster the only change I want to see for energy blast is a new look. The current energy blast is really starting to show its age so would love to see that looked into.