Issue 2X: old powersets revamp?
By
Aura_Familia,
Posted on: 2012-04-11 09:23 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
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I never said that. Even back in I6, Stalkers still contributed to the team, I never questioned this. The question was how much. And from playing one and from teaming with one, it never struck me as being as much as an even run-of-the-mill Scrapper. Maybe I just didn't run into any exceptional Stalkers, that's possible, but I ran into plenty of pretty good Scrappers and a LOT of really good Brutes.|
Originally Posted by Leo_G
Now prove that Stalkers were tantamount to a waste of space before.
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You run into the opposite end of the spectrum, if that's what you want to argue - Stalkers measured up, but took a lot more effort and knowledge to do it. It doesn't seem to me like they did, but I'll take your word for it. But that's just Defiance 1.0 all over again - the few who managed to use it excelled and everyone who didn't manage to use it died trying to stay low on health.
Stalkers aren't necessarily easier to play now, they're just easier to play at a moderate level of performance.
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On a side note, I'm not sure if Stalkers deal more damage than Scrappers, now, but I assume they do. As you say, it's trivial to prove, I just haven't run the numbers. I guess that's what sent Johnny Butane on a crusade that has nothing to do with with the subject.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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Well we're a far cry from "Stalkers were blacksheep and only got pity spots because they were seen as not contributing much because they [blanket statement] WEREN'T!"|
Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
I never said that. Even back in I6, Stalkers still contributed to the team, I never questioned this. The question was how much. And from playing one and from teaming with one, it never struck me as being as much as an even run-of-the-mill Scrapper.
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But should we go tell those run-of-the-mill Scrappers that they're worth even less now since, you know, Stalker beat them.
That is to say, we're basically gauging run-of-the-mill Scrappers as weak when practically any Scrapper is decent-to-great. That must mean Stalkers were decent-to-great...or am I not adding this up right?
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I would love to see the Devs take another look at Dark Armor.|
Originally Posted by Waylorn
I know is like beating on a dead horse, but I really LOVE to see some serious revamps to old powersets that are flat obsolete or just do not play well with the modern CoH gameplay.
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Cloak of Fear: The accuracy penalty and the endurance cost together are excessive.
Dark Regen: I *love* the recharge but the 33.8 points of endurance at level 16 is excessive. Ideally, I would love to see the end use based on the number of critters hit. But I don't know if that is possible.
I have a level 50 spines/DA which is great on teams and solo. It is such a unique powerset. But it was such a pain in the *** to level until I was able to slot it up with IOs. Make Dark Regen and Cloak of Fear a little more SO friendly and I'll roll some more.
At the very least do something with Cloak of Fear...it is such a cool ******* power.
Fingers crossed that Force Field and Sonic Resonance get an Absorb power. That utility just seems so obvious for those sets. I might actually start playing my retired Force Fielder again.
It would also not be so horrible if the mini-bubbles that came from the big bubble (not the individually cast bubbles, the ones that show up when you go inside the big bubble) had a much longer duration.. like 1 minute. That way people would be protected as long as the just crossed paths with the bubble from time to time instead of having to stand inside it every second.
The accuracy penalty from Cloak of Fear is a -to hit debuff on enemies isn't it?
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I don't understand your question. City of Data Link. Many powers have a base accuracy of 1. Cloak of Fear has a base accuracy of 0.67. CoF does have a toHit debuff of 5% along with the mag 2 fear.
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Originally Posted by warden_de_dios
The accuracy penalty from Cloak of Fear is a -to hit debuff on enemies isn't it?
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I didn't know about the 0.67 accuracy of CoF so I was confused when you said
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I thought the accuracy penalty was a reference to the -to hit.
| Cloak of Fear: The accuracy penalty and the endurance cost together are excessive. |
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Well, that's the stigma. As I said, it wasn't entirely deserve, but it wasn't entirely made-up, either. I've seen Stalkers kicked from teams, I've seen Stalkers refused team spots and I've seen Stalkers made to justify how they were helping. And it wasn't always bad Stalkers, either.|
Originally Posted by Leo_G
Well we're a far cry from "Stalkers were blacksheep and only got pity spots because they were seen as not contributing much because they [blanket statement] WEREN'T!"
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To offer a counter-point, I have a friend who played a Stalker since I6. To him, Stalkers were great. When the first round of changes hit, he thought they weren't needed, and he got his own Stalker to 50 just fine. Here's the thing, though: Even though he was confident in his own Stalker, when teaming with pretty much any of my Brutes (except my Stone/Stone one, HAAATE!), even he would comment that I was matching his damage. And remember - this was I6, so no Brute Fury changes.
Sadly, Markus left the game four years ago, if not more, so I haven't been able to get his own input on the changes, but he had a LOT more tolerance for performance than I ever did.
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Originally Posted by Leo_G
That is to say, we're basically gauging run-of-the-mill Scrappers as weak when practically any Scrapper is decent-to-great. That must mean Stalkers were decent-to-great...or am I not adding this up right?
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I don't consider teaming to be a competition. It's really not a question of who contributes the most or the least, so much as a question of gaps. And something that keeps getting lost in the shuffle is I don't believe Stalkers were necessarily contributing that much less total, so much as I feel they were working their ***** off just to break even on contribution. To me, that's simply not fair. It's not fair that I have to work twice as hard just to match the performance of someone simply mashing buttons. If I HAVE mind Hide and I HAVE to mind Assassin's Strike and I HAVE to time Placate and I HAVE to keep my fingers crossed the game doesn't throw up on me and even then basically break even, I feel cheated.
Scrappers aren't worth less now, I don't think, but Scrappers are worth what they are for a LOT less effort. When playing a Scrapper, you really can't mess up, other than getting yourself killed. But provided you don't die, there really is very little you can do wrong as a Scrapper. Pick an enemy, hit him until he falls down, pick another enemy, repeat and don't get dead.
A Stalker, by contrast, can do a LOT of things wrong. He can mess up his hidden Assassin's Strike if he still uses that
He can have his Hide busted because someone attacked too early. He can have his Placate critical messed up because a minion from across the room shot him, or because he had Caltrops tossed at his feet. He can miss his Focus critical because he couldn't tab to an applicable enemy fast enough, or he might not even achieve Focus because he didn't use the right attacks, or because the game didn't feel like triggering Focus off the attacks he did. He can placate the wrong enemy and waste the "can't target" effect, or he can placate the wrong enemy and have that enemy turn around to one-shot the nearby Blaster. There was a lot a Stalker stood to do wrong, and there is even more a Stalker can do wrong now. To me, it's simply not fair that a character walking on eggshells so much should barely match the performance of one who barely even needs any user input.THAT is why I feel Stalkers were "wronged" before the changes. Their performance wasn't terrible... I don't think it was ever GREAT, but it wasn't terrible. But their performance also came at a cost much higher than either Brutes or Scrappers had to pay. Now Stalkers are just as difficult to play, even more so, but the results they generate are well worth the complexity.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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If I were to say one set that needs to be revamped it would be Dark Armor.Now don't give me wrong I love dark armor because it is very strong if built right.However there is 2 abilities that I would say that should not be in Dark Armors power list and these powers are Cloak Of Fear and Oppressive Gloom.These abilities don't work really cause.#1 fear makes cower for about 1-2 seconds then they flee.Even if they are taunted.#2 Stun makes them travel away from you so they don't stick around for your AOE's and such like that.One of the main things with Dark Armor is controlling your endurance because of the amount of toggles you run even with Cardiac Core Paragon.And a class should not half to take a certain Incarnate to be able to function.Now what this class needs is an aggro ability like Invincibility or Rise To The Challenge or something to the sort.At the same time an ability that helps Dark Armor with the end problem that it has.One ability that comes to mind that is like this is Conductive Aura from the Electric Control set which would give the dark armor aggro control and recovery to help the class.Or Given Quick Recovery like Willpower and Regen has.
People will have conflicting opinions. After a revamp people might still have conflicting opinions.
A lot of what goes into a set are things that work towards a concept or a little bit universal with similar concepts.
If we didn't differ on ideas then we may as well not have choices.
Changing any one thing can upset someone somewhere. Often a move in one direction for an advantage can mean a disadvantage in some form. More recharge means more eps. Lower cast times means less recovery over attack chains.
Sure gimmicks could be added but I thought Procs, Incarnates were doing that job.
If I was a Dev I would be looking to make things more universally acceptable. Some people hate KB, some don't you can then make IO sets to reduce KB but then in a fair trade make those sets mean less damage per endurance. What other things aren't too popular? Interrupt time? Perhaps a 0s interrupt set can offer no reduce rechg. Then things like Tripmine can be dropped there and then but you can't drop so many.
I'd much rather things furthered along with new things or changes that can effect all powersets via new IO sets. No one suffers at someones idea as all things take is the purchase of things that are purely voluntary.
He will honor his words; he will definitely carry out his actions. What he promises he will fulfill. He does not care about his bodily self, putting his life and death aside to come forward for another's troubled besiegement. He does not boast about his ability, or shamelessly extol his own virtues. - Sima Qian.
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Originally Posted by Nethergoat
There are genuinely underperforming sets out there that could use help. But the devs rarely make drastic, massive changes to established sets- they tinker, they fiddle, they tweak, improving things over time.
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Indeed.. A certain other company who runs a well known MMO tend to do the "Drastic change routine". The results are generally pretty.. Cataclysmic *wink wink* at times, with massive power shifts between uber and gimpy.
The Dark powersets have always been really odd ducks, though from what I've played of my DA Scrapper I'd agree that a few powers are just not worth taking.
And yeah, making drastic changes to old mechanics of a 6 year old MMO is just asking for trouble, unless those changes are obviously needed.
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While they may be old; they still work well for the most part.
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Originally Posted by Prof_Backfire
The Dark powersets have always been really odd ducks, though from what I've played of my DA Scrapper I'd agree that a few powers are just not worth taking.
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And they do it with EVERY expansion. I'm in the revamp wagon, but what they do with that game is insane. Learn to play your class, learn builds, get the equipment and 1 year later... scrap all that and start from the beginning because they revamped even the way the class is played.|
Originally Posted by Primantiss
Indeed.. A certain other company who runs a well known MMO tend to do the "Drastic change routine". The results are generally pretty.. Cataclysmic *wink wink* at times, with massive power shifts between uber and gimpy.
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What is it with the head-grabbing Jackie Chan pic, by the way? I see it all over the 'net and I can't tell when or why it started being used.|
Originally Posted by Lord_Kalistoh
And they do it with EVERY expansion. I'm in the revamp wagon, but what they do with that game is insane. Learn to play your class, learn builds, get the equipment and 1 year later... scrap all that and start from the beginning because they revamped even the way the class is played.
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On the subject of Dark powers, I feel what they need first and foremost is a new set of choosable custom animations, and possibly better, less smoke-looking effects. Dark is not weak in any of its powersets, but it just looks so bad because it's always such a kludge. Dark Melee may well be the worst offender. It's just using Braw, Flurry, Recall Friend and the standard cast animation, just with smoky tendrils around the arms. I doesn't look like darkness manipulation, it looks like smoke brawling. I honestly feel the set needs to have better-looking Dark effects and it needs to have less-generic, more dark-power-specific animations AS AN OPTION first before we start messing with its mechanics.
That aside, I feel Dark Armour has problems. Those aren't problems that make is weak, they're just problems that make it awkward. Its lack of knockback protection is the most obvious one. I'll never understand this design decision, especially now that you can just out-and-out solve it with a single special enhancement. It's less deadly than it is just annoying. Same with Fiery Aura, in fact.
There's this, and then there's Cloak of Fear. I'm sure it's a good power, but GOOD GOD it doesn't need to cost this much endurance. In a set with seven toggles (pretty much all but Soul Transfer and Dark Regeneration), it's just EVIL to put in a power that costs this much. I get that it's good for to-hit debuffs, but the fear portion in it is crap and I've never had a character who could afford to run it AND run even most of the other toggles. If we're worried about the thing being overpowered if it cost less or did more, um... Yeah, Oppressive Gloom says hi. Last time I played my Dark/Dark Scrapper, it honestly felt like I was cheating because most of the time I fought enemies who weren't fighting back. Yeah, it's just minions, I know, but even at "more enemies" difficulties, that's still the bulk of what I fight.
So, yeah, Dark Melee and Dark Armour are pretty good sets, I just feel they suffer from a few debilitating old Geko decisions that never got addressed.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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The exact meaning can't be posted here, word filter would get it. But it's posted to show a combination of frustration and bewilderment. "Why do you DO that?!" is also a valid translation.
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Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
What is it with the head-grabbing Jackie Chan pic, by the way? I see it all over the 'net and I can't tell when or why it started being used.
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Aegis Rose, Forcefield/Energy Defender - Freedom
"Bubble up for safety!"
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"jackie chan head grabbing meme" on google got me the lowdown.|
Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
What is it with the head-grabbing Jackie Chan pic, by the way? I see it all over the 'net and I can't tell when or why it started being used.
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=D
The Nethergoat Archive: all my memories, all my characters, all my thoughts on CoH...eventually.
My City Was Gone
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Seconded! I would love a all sword animation for my Fire/Invuln tank, or a all mallet animation for a Stone Stone, that would look awesome...
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Originally Posted by Zemblanity
Ohh, I love these threads
 I don't like it when melee sets mix swords and mallets and elemental punches and such. Stone melee and Fire melee suffer from the same problem (IMO), no consistency in its animations. Giving an alternate "non-sword" animation to sword/mallet attacks, plus alternate "sword" animation to non-sword attacks would be enough for me to play it (well, fire, I don't like ice, but whatever). |
"when i can savagely beat sheep while issuing ultimatums and torturing people, then i may go back into it" -vara nocturne
Not enough Evil...
I take it back NC SOFT is enough evil for anyone...
Number tweaks can be all that's needed to turn an unappealing set into a popular one. Shame people (both devs and players) always want to throw everything out of the window and reinvent the wheel instead of building on what's already there.
Two of my current levelling projects are an elec/
Ice Control - needs some love, back to the times it was awesomesauce, now it just sits at the bottom of the pile. Sad.
Force Field - this is odd: it just adds def, some def and another bit of def to everyone that's already softcapped. Really useful just in low-mid lvls. Have no idea how to make it more yummy or something.
Battle Axe/War Mace/Broad Sword/Katana - these stay on the same boat: they're not bad, they're simply...meh. New weapon sets just have more gimmicks, more interesting mechanics, more appeal than just whack-a-fu. Probably they just need something special, if not unique, to appeal peeps. Dual blades, for example, is not a wonderful set, but it feels unique in its way. Claws is another example of uniqueness in swift attacks and a nice mix of ranged and melee.
Regeneration - good for pvp. whait, who said lolpvp? This one lost its uniqueness with the, albeit needed, old big nerf. Playing it nowadays in normal/high content is just asking for a hard beating. Needs something more than a bit of s/l res.
Ice Melee - Uhm. Well, I just never ever played this one, so it may be an hidden treasure, lol. Seriously, a bit of touch may be needed, especially in the DPS department.
Ninja and Mercenaries - Need some work to be on par with other MM sets. Some survivability tool for ninjas and attack cycles revamp, especially for the tier2 henchies, for mercs. Oh, and shorten the laughable recharge on serum, at least.
I know it's a big pile of work, but I think it's needed to give more difference and variety to the playerbase.
Which makes sense, because if you're going to drastically change an existing set you're probably better off just starting from scratch on a new one. More is better, even if some sets end up being percieved as stuffy or old fashioned.
And it's been my experience over the years that every set or AT, however underperforming, has its fans & adherents.
Over time most legitimate complaints get addressed. Perhaps not as dramatically and comprehensively as we'd like, but it's a big, complex game and even little changes take a lot of time and energy.
The Nethergoat Archive: all my memories, all my characters, all my thoughts on CoH...eventually.
My City Was Gone