So lets talk about redside teaming.
By
Abyssus,
Posted on: 2012-04-10 09:25 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
Quote:
You are wrong.|
Originally Posted by GuyPerfect
People being unwilling to form teams, frankly, is not a deficit of redside in any conceivable context. It's the deficit of the people who play redside, or in this case, don't play redside and instead run back to blueside where people will hold their hand.
|
The game does not exist in theory, it exists in reality. It is played by real people. If real players have problems finding a team then there is a problem finding a team.
The attitude of "the system is fine the problem is with the people" is the attitude of people who are very impressed with themselves but produce very poor results.
A system is only as good as the results it achieves, not the results that you can speculate that it could or should achieve.
Quote:
With this I agree with. There is a teaming problem which I think is rooted in the lack of people willingness to take leadership roles. And this is made worse REDside because of its lower population. |
Originally Posted by dugfromthearth
You are wrong.
The game does not exist in theory, it exists in reality. It is played by real people. If real players have problems finding a team then there is a problem finding a team. The attitude of "the system is fine the problem is with the people" is the attitude of people who are very impressed with themselves but produce very poor results. A system is only as good as the results it achieves, not the results that you can speculate that it could or should achieve. |
Oftentimes I have a full awesome team running and when I have to go no one wants to pick up Star duties and it falls apart. Seven competent people, each going in their own direction.
I understand some people don't like picking up the mantle. I feel that way myself and when I do I get my Scrap / Dom / Stalker to solo stuff to kill time.
My question would be what can be done to make leading more enticing or less threatening, or stressing?
Quote:
And what part of my argument focused on finding a preexisting team?|
Originally Posted by dugfromthearth
The game does not exist in theory, it exists in reality. It is played by real people. If real players have problems finding a team then there is a problem finding a team.
|
Of course those aren't as common redside: there aren't as many people redside. But does that make it impossible or even difficult to team? It certainly doesn't. Look at all the other posts in this thread sharing their experiences forming teams redside.
The problem is the people; the ones who say "I want someone to invite me to their team" in a setting where it's quite unlikely to happen that way. In what convoluted route of problem solving can that be interpreted as a problem with the system?
Quote:
Sorry, you can't say the problem is the people.|
Originally Posted by GuyPerfect
And what part of my argument focused on finding a preexisting team?
Of course those aren't as common redside: there aren't as many people redside. But does that make it impossible or even difficult to team? It certainly doesn't. Look at all the other posts in this thread sharing their experiences forming teams redside. The problem is the people; the ones who say "I want someone to invite me to their team" in a setting where it's quite unlikely to happen that way. In what convoluted route of problem solving can that be interpreted as a problem with the system? |
I can link you to a superhero game and tell you to have fun playing it. It has no graphics - you can just imagine them. It has no content - you can just imagine it.
Any flaw can be argued that the people can work around it, pretend it isn't there, use their imagination instead of the game providing, etc.
But the way business and games works is that people have requirements that the game needs to meet, the game does not have requirements that people need to meet.
I understand that you do not have a problem and that therefore you do not consider a problem to exist. But that is not the reality of the situation. Other players do have a problem.
I had really high hopes for Dark Astoria to be the co-op zone of my dreams, where I could take my redside characters to level when nothing was going on in the Isles.
Unfortunately, the design decision was made, for some reason, to make the Arcs repeatable only by means of Ouroboros, which means that they lose their co-op status.
Ah well. Could've been grand.
@Draeth Darkstar
Virtue [Heroes, Roleplay], Freedom [Villains], Exalted [All Sides, Roleplay]
Code:
I24 Proc Chance = (Enhanced Recharge + Activation Time) * (Current PPM * 1.25) / 60*(1 + .75*(.15*Radius - 0.011*Radius*(360-Arc)/30)) Single Target Radius = 0. AoE Non-Cone Arc = 360.
The flaw in your argument, dugfromthearth, is you're putting forth the idea of the teaming problem as a factual reality, i.e. it's a problem and the system must be changed in some way so that it's not a problem any longer. This is a false dilemma because it's not a binary situation. It's not a case of either A) a problem existing and needing corrections to the system to fix or B) no problem at all existing and no one ever having any trouble of any kind.
Instead, my experience (and to judge by the replies above, the experience of several other longtime players) is that we have an flawed team-up system that can nevertheless be overcome provided a player is willing to perform the thankless role of leader and team manager.
This player needs to do most or all of the following: prepare missions for the team to accomplish, adjust team difficulty for the best rewards for the time (which does not always mean +4/x8!), communicate with at least minimal effectiveness with other players in terms of global channels, tells, broadcast chat and/or friends lists, and manage a rotating stable of teammates to keep the team going as players drop out over time.
It's understandable that many players might prefer to 'just play' and not want to be bothered with this, but the reality is that if everyone wants to follow and no one wants to lead, then nobody gets anywhere.
Could the /search tool and the team-up system in general do with some improvement, especially a feature allowing a team leader to flag his/her team 'looking for more' and have teammates matched in automatically (or something in a related vein)? Absolutely. There's clear room for improvement. This does not, however, mean that you can't get teams redside, blueside, goldside, whatver. Well, maybe goldside, given that you have a much smaller pool to work with there and far less flexibility in who you can get on the team.
Short version: as it stands now, anyone who's willing to use the tools available and is willing to suffer some minor inconvenience can have a team easily.
If those tools are improved, so much the better.
Iscariot's Guide to the Tri-Form Warshade, version 2.1
I'm sorry that math > your paranoid delusions, but them's the breaks -- Nethergoat
P.E.R.C. Rep for Liberty server
Interestingly enough, the LFG queue can be seen as an attempt to make forming teams and leading them easier. Specially the trials.
And yet, people still opt to form teams and/or wait till someone does instead of just clicking on the Queue button.
Quote:
It's probably better that way so that when you do hit 50 and unlock your Alpha slot to gain access to the arcs you can still get your "free" reward table each arc. Having to burn a table on a sub-50 because you forgot to drop team in time would suck.
|
Originally Posted by Draeth Darkstar
I had really high hopes for Dark Astoria to be the co-op zone of my dreams, where I could take my redside characters to level when nothing was going on in the Isles.
|
Quote:
Well said without snide-idity, or something. |
Originally Posted by Tormentoso
With this I agree with. There is a teaming problem which I think is rooted in the lack of people willingness to take leadership roles. And this is made worse REDside because of its lower population.
|
The real prob I see is that the game's whole population seems to be either contracting and/or solidifying at the end-game material. Both would make playing "at the edges" (AE stories run for fun not farming, late night play, low pop servers, redside play) much more likely to be a solo endeavor. I don't see new co-op zones or anything else helping that out, we just need more damn players.And hey, I have run teams and I have taken over the star on and continued teams before, but it is more work in general than "just playing". Part of the pressure, for me, is the "filltheteamnownownmusthave8let'sgogogo" attitude I see from a some players, I've had teams of four quit and break up after a minute of me searching for others and not being fast enough. That's kind of stressful, you know?
Quote:
The problem with the LFG system is that it allows people to use it who are not, in fact, LFG. Undoubtedly an unfortunate necessity of tying the iTrials to it.|
Originally Posted by Tormentoso
Interestingly enough, the LFG queue can be seen as an attempt to make forming teams and leading them easier. Specially the trials.
And yet, people still opt to form teams and/or wait till someone does instead of just clicking on the Queue button. |
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by GuyPerfect
Of course those aren't as common redside: there aren't as many people redside. But does that make it impossible or even difficult to team? It certainly doesn't.
|
Goodbye may seem forever
Farewell is like the end
But in my heart's the memory
And there you'll always be
-- The Fox and the Hound
Ok, I'll log what I do on the servers that I have toons on and maybe roll a new toon on a server I haven't tried.
First up, the new kid on the (server) block, Exalted! This friday, at 9 PM PST, I get on my lowbie lvl 23 brute and check the help and global chans. Then I open the search window. Aha! I spy a purple colored name in Mercy, Miss Fortunata. Hmmm... lady luck on my side? I ask her if there's room and she says yes, then invites. Yay! There's 3 of us and later on, a coalie joins us. The enemy mobs were Legacy and Arachnos. Around 10:30 PM, Miss and Huggie Bear have to go so hugs go around and the team breaks up.
As I contemplate making a new team, Glacial pokes for interest in an ITF. I get on my kin and join. About 5-10 mins, Glacial gets a full team and Nocturne 1 leads us in a +2 ITF steamroll. We finish in 52 mins.
Since I want my vill merit, I decide to do speed SSA. A coalie and 27 lady crab joins and the three of us finish in 13 mins.
We decide to do the TV arc next, so off to GV. A scrapper joins us, followed by 3 more lowbies later. On average, the team size was 5-6 people. We play till 3 AM PST and end at the 'Freaks in TV' mission. Mobs were arachnos, malta, council, freaks and DE. The malta gave the most trouble, and our MM managed to get a debt badge. 
Diff was +1 or +2x8.
Going by alpha order, my next stop is Champion!
------
Sat 9 AM PST, I log my lv 14 war mace brute on Champion and start looking around. Search shows less than 5 toons under 20. So I do Ashley's arc of running around meeting people. I check again, and find about 10 or so possible victi---, er, teammates. I advertise for DFB in Help, Mercy, PO and Cap. A couple were returning players, and so I explained what DFB was. There were 2 players that had 1 vet star. I can't tell if they're F2P, so I send these a tell: DFB wanna come? It has good xp and gives buffs as a reward. Accept invite to come, decline if not. These 2 players both joined and then quit 5 seconds later. Oh well.
After getting 5 folks together, we finish a KR mayhem since it was in progress then did DFB. After DFB, folks had to go, so with a team of three, we started Wheeler's arc. I throw out some tells from time to time and managed to get a 7 player team. At 1 PM, my tummy started grumbling, so had to go. Everyone leveled up enough to need new enhancements, so the team disbanded. My brute is a bar away from 20.
BTW, I'm a mostly redside player with just 1 or 2 heroes. It's easy to find teams on Freedom, so next stop, Pinnacle!
-----
After lunch, I head over to Pinnacle with my lv 15 kin. Search shows just a handful of players lvls 1-20. I streetsweep for a bit, do talk missions and check the market. Sales since double xp weekend nets a nice 1 bil which is more than enough for lowbie build. Search shows more players this time, but no leaders under lvl 30. There were a few above 30, but I figure I'd be too low to help.
I try to form a team to do the Golden Roller arc. Team starts out slow with 3 and reaches 5 after a couple of missions later. I suggest DFB and one player said she hasn't done it. So we do a DFB and she thought it was pretty cool. We finish the Golden Roller arc around 7:30 PM PST and my kin is now 20. It was about dinner time, so I say my farewells and the team disbands.
Mobs were CoT, Lost, Arachnos and Wyvern. The Wyvern were a bit annoying since they like to make me a pin cushion after transfusion hits. Breaking LoS helped keep me alive.
For tomorrow, I'm stopping by Protector.
-----
Sunday, 3 PM PST, I dust off my lv 19 kin on Protector. Search reveals a lvl 15 leading a team in PO. I send tell but get no reply. I wait around a bit, selling junk and buying IOs. I search again, but didn't find a leader between lvls 1-30. I do a couple of missions from the Golden Roller and find another player who wants to team. After advertising in Help, another player joins with his friend. When the team is about 5 players, I suggest running DiB. However, the MM doesn't want to play MM anymore, so we decide to run DFB after the MM makes a new lowbie. We do 2 DFB runs and then 2 DiB runs. However, for the 2nd DiB, we only had 4 people and had a hard time at the AVs. The blaster quit after several team wipes, so we didn't complete the trial. Dinner was ready, so I decide to finish up at lvl 22.
Last stop is Triumph!
-----
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Tenzhi
If the only way to get on a team is to form one, I'd say it certainly is difficult.
|
Quote:
It's more challenging than it would be on a busy blueside server, certainly.|
Originally Posted by Tenzhi
If the only way to get on a team is to form one, I'd say it certainly is difficult.
|
That's a real problem I hope they address at some point.
But even with the additional difficulties imposed by low population, in my experience it doesn't take a huge effort to get a team rolling, just the motivation to send tells and round some people up.
The Nethergoat Archive: all my memories, all my characters, all my thoughts on CoH...eventually.
My City Was Gone
The New typical "CoH Experience" Formula:
a) run "Tutorial" to achieve 2nd level
b) run "Death from Below" teams until 15+
c) run "Drowned in Blood" teams until 20+ OR continue with DfB teams until 20+
d) run alignment switch (if red side)
e) solo First Ward arcs and/or run Blueside TFs until 50
g) run Incarnate arcs
h) post "mor endgame plz" "stoopid pets" and "why no staff" posts. 
Seriously though, as I've said before. Redside needs a serious revamp to give people reasons to play a redside toon. Personally, since the trope is that villains do not play well with others in any case, my suggestion is to create more in-depth and length solo-ish arcs featuring the character's climb to infamy as a villain of note.
Then spice it up with "team-up" arcs that require more than one villain/rogue/vigilante to complete goals (like the Rogues teaming up to deal with the Flash, or The Sinister Six with Spidey). Add new aspects like "In order to do this job, it's gonna take some Infamy, chum" to give a reason fr pulling bank jobs and papers again. Also consider "drop in" missions... mission that allow other villians who draw the same mission while it's active to "drop-in" to either work with, or betray the impromptu "partners." (maybe even having a pvp element to it)
Oh, and for Grud sake, let villains be villains. You don't have to allow us to be raving mass-murdering psychopaths, but Jack's gone now... can we at least do four-color villainy?
I think with some distinct changes to redside, it would allow more people to enjoy playing a villain for a change, and more people does make for more teaming.
It's 106 miles to Grandville, we got a full tank of gas, half a pack of cigarettes, it's dark and we're wearing faceless helmets
... Hit it ...
... Hit it ...
Quote:
I would very much like more arcs, especially solo-friendly ones so I can do stuff with my squishier characters without feeling quite so frustrated.
|
Originally Posted by Jet_Boy
Seriously though, as I've said before. Redside needs a serious revamp to give people reasons to play a redside toon. Personally, since the trope is that villains do not play well with others in any case, my suggestion is to create more in-depth and length solo-ish arcs featuring the character's climb to infamy as a villain of note. |
In the room the women come and go
Talking of Michelangelo.
At this point they'd be silly to sink a ton of resources into red side.
I played villains exclusively for a good while & would love some kind of gigantic CoV upgrade, but it makes zero business sense.
The playerbase has spoken, and they prefer heroes.
The Nethergoat Archive: all my memories, all my characters, all my thoughts on CoH...eventually.
My City Was Gone
Quote:
And you have a point, but I would argue that we've never actually been given the chance to play villians... just Jack's homogenized version. I think that (along with the general neglect) is what really put players off about redside. And seeing that new material has been added recently, it might be just the time a bit of a revamp.|
Originally Posted by Nethergoat
At this point they'd be silly to sink a ton of resources into red side.
I played villains exclusively for a good while & would love some kind of gigantic CoV upgrade, but it makes zero business sense. The playerbase has spoken, and they prefer heroes. |
After all we're getting another ward for brassside and NOBODY likes brassside
It's 106 miles to Grandville, we got a full tank of gas, half a pack of cigarettes, it's dark and we're wearing faceless helmets
... Hit it ...
... Hit it ...
Quote:
Redside lead dev was Zeb Cook, although I'm sure Jack's permanent aura of terrible ideas made itself felt.|
Originally Posted by Jet_Boy
And you have a point, but I would argue that we've never actually been given the chance to play villians... just Jack's homogenized version. I think that (along with the general neglect) is what really put players off about redside. And seeing that new material has been added recently, it might be just the time a bit of a revamp.
After all we're getting another ward for brassside and NOBODY likes brassside |
The point is, right now red side is what it is- meaningful improvements would require resources equivalent to making a whole new game.
And I don't see much they could do now to make redside more demographically palatable. There are just too many conceptual problems selling you are the bad guy compared to you are the hero.
The Nethergoat Archive: all my memories, all my characters, all my thoughts on CoH...eventually.
My City Was Gone
Quote:
Not asking for a complete revamp|
Originally Posted by Nethergoat
Redside lead dev was Zeb Cook, although I'm sure Jack's permanent aura of terrible ideas made itself felt.
The point is, right now red side is what it is- meaningful improvements would require resources equivalent to making a whole new game. And I don't see much they could do now to make redside more demographically palatable. There are just too many conceptual problems selling you are the bad guy compared to you are the hero. |
Just asking for more access to players such as cross server or even cross side teaming opportunities.
Failing that, just inflate rewards, blatant bribery usually does work.
Boycott Ncsoft if they close down Coh.
Quote:
the screams of complaint from players with no interest in redside (which is most of them) would deafen everyone on the internet. |
Originally Posted by Shubbie
Failing that, just inflate rewards, blatant bribery usually does work.
|
And they would be completely justified.
The Nethergoat Archive: all my memories, all my characters, all my thoughts on CoH...eventually.
My City Was Gone
Quote:
Oh, that's easy. The Ghost Widow/Red Widow Red-Bull-Fueled "Mud-Wrestlers of the Apocalypse" co-op arc should bring them in. Especially when the Shards start exploding out of the mud pit! (And there's something in it for the ladies as well, when mischievous Captain Mako hops in the pit and the REAL fun starts!)
|
Originally Posted by Nethergoat
And I don't see much they could do now to make redside more demographically palatable. There are just too many conceptual problems selling you are the bad guy compared to you are the hero.
|
It's 106 miles to Grandville, we got a full tank of gas, half a pack of cigarettes, it's dark and we're wearing faceless helmets
... Hit it ...
... Hit it ...
Redside is extremely hard to organise a PUG on, anybody who says otherwise isnt in touch with the majority of the game
Sure I could start a lowbie villain team quite easily within 5/10 minutes and have a blast. Reason for that though is because i've been around for so long that i know quite a lot of people to get to team with me. Most of the teams i set up i can guarantee wouldnt happen if i was an unknown/new player.
@Damz Find me on the global channel Union Chat. One of the best "chat channels" ingame!
Quote:
All the RED groups I make are entirely out of HELP and BROADCAST. I belong to no VG and I often forget to announce on the two globals I'm in. |
Originally Posted by EU_Damz
Redside is extremely hard to organise a PUG on, anybody who says otherwise isnt in touch with the majority of the game
Sure I could start a lowbie villain team quite easily within 5/10 minutes and have a blast. Reason for that though is because i've been around for so long that i know quite a lot of people to get to team with me. Most of the teams i set up i can guarantee wouldnt happen if i was an unknown/new player. |
To be fair, I am from Virtue, so this is the only experience I can talk from. And there are some hours of the day combined with days of the week when it is more difficult. 2 am Tuesdays, very unlikely.
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Tormentoso
All the RED groups I make are entirely out of HELP and BROADCAST. I belong to no VG and I often forget to announce on the two globals I'm in.
To be fair, I am from Virtue, so this is the only experience I can talk from. And there are some hours of the day combined with days of the week when it is more difficult. 2 am Tuesdays, very unlikely. |
I believe that Virtue/Freedom should not be included in all aspects of PuG teams
@Damz Find me on the global channel Union Chat. One of the best "chat channels" ingame!
People being unwilling to form teams, frankly, is not a deficit of redside in any conceivable context. It's the deficit of the people who play redside, or in this case, don't play redside and instead run back to blueside where people will hold their hand.
I thought I was joking when I suggested people who can't find a team redside were just waiting for an invitation to drop into their laps. But as this thread progressed, and the more people I talked to about it in-game, the more I've found that's exactly what's going on.
Everyone, know this and learn it well, for it is the summary of the matter: anyone who claims to have a problem with redside teaming is expecting something to be served to them on a silver platter.