My three corruptors are Ice/Dark, Sonic/Pain and Fire/Rad, and I love them all, so I'd certainly recommend Ice and Sonic, but a lot depends on what you want. Neither Ice nor Sonic does the raw damage of Fire, but Ice has quite a bit of control with its slows and holds, and Sonic...well I just love Sonic. Love that it debuffs, love the control, with its stun and sleep (and kb, if you take it), and the damage is more than good enough for my character to contribute to teams (I don't solo that one).
I would say that my Ice and Sonic are both more support-oriented in the more 'traditional' sense (I'm grappling for the right wording) of bringing debuff, buff, healing, and control to the team (even when they are "the team"; my Ice/Dark solos beautifully). Fire/Rad, on the other hand, supports the team, or herself when solo, by dropping her debuffs and then KILLING THE ENEMY WITH FIRE! All three are wonderfully different experiences to play. So yeah...I think there's a point. :-) But as always, YMMV.
EDIT: You mentioned being interested in several secondaries. Have you tried Fire/Dark? I hear they're all that and a bag of chips and I'm inclined to believe it.
Currently I'm playing a fire/time. Dark is one of the secondaries that I definitely want to try, poison is another.
Why do people phrase questions this way? The answer is obvious.
'I don't like the look of it at all,' said the King: 'however, it may kiss my hand if it likes.'
'I'd rather not,' the Cat remarked.
'Don't be impertinent,' said the King, 'and don't look at me like that!' He got behind Alice as he spoke.
'A cat may look at a king,' said Alice.
Yes it's called BR
fire probably does better damage solo, but on teams sonic will do more as the debuff to Res will make your teammates do more damaage.
and really fire just has no control.
sonic has a great sleep
ice has a hold
so if you only solo and only care about damage, then go fire every time.
but if you only solo and only care about damage you should be a defender instead of a corr.
Every time I make a new corruptor, I ask myself the same question. I have a Fire/Dark, Fire/Cold, Fire/Time....but a Rad/Kin. :P
Don't I know you???
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Because it gets people to look at the thread. I realize that yes, there is a point to other sets. My actual question was in the OP. |
Originally Posted by Aneko
Why do people phrase questions this way? The answer is obvious.
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Why do so many people look only at the thread title and nothing else?
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I wouldn't know.
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Originally Posted by firespray
Why do so many people look only at the thread title and nothing else?
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'I don't like the look of it at all,' said the King: 'however, it may kiss my hand if it likes.'
'I'd rather not,' the Cat remarked.
'Don't be impertinent,' said the King, 'and don't look at me like that!' He got behind Alice as he spoke.
'A cat may look at a king,' said Alice.
Dark/Dark
Where to find me after the end:
The Secret World - Arcadia - Shinzo
Rift - Faeblight - Bloodspeaker
LotRO - Gladden - Aranelion
STO - Holodeck - @Captain_Thiraas
Obviously, I don't care about NCSoft's forum rules, now.
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The only Corruptor I've played to 50 (so far) is Dark/Dark/Dark.
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Originally Posted by Bloodspeaker
Dark/Dark
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'I don't like the look of it at all,' said the King: 'however, it may kiss my hand if it likes.'
'I'd rather not,' the Cat remarked.
'Don't be impertinent,' said the King, 'and don't look at me like that!' He got behind Alice as he spoke.
'A cat may look at a king,' said Alice.
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No it's not just you, many others have mentioned the performance gap specifically between fire and the other primaries. I can't for the life of me roll anything other than fire/ corrs.
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Originally Posted by firespray
Do others feel this way, or is it just me? Are there other sets you would encourage me to try out?
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Archery - has a cool non-crashing nuke on a very short recharge
AR - never played it
Beam - packs a serious ST punch with good AOE up past 32 (non-crashing nuke) and excellent mix of secondary effects
Dark - decent damage, excellent survival, it got buffed and now its heal serves as a decent third ST attack. A ranged attack that does good healing and you're going to spam it anyway... good stuff. Great secondary effects also
DP - because you like hopping around like a monkey on crack with a pair of pistols.
Electric - because your life has no meaning if you can't aaaghrrRPee lighting properly.
Energy Blast is Strong and Pretty.
Fire - Godly.
Ice - awesome ST, good secondary/control effects, decent AoE + Blizzard which is OMGSOFREAKINGAWESOME with Scourge.
Psychic - long range/good control? never played the blast version, just Mind/, /Psi and Fort
Rad - good AoE, especially if you're going for a melee/pbaoe playstyle. Energy damage is awesome and defense debuff secondary effects = proc heaven.
Sonic - hte mostest -Res. evarh. Decent ST and AoE, decent solo, awesome teamed.
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Heh, mine was originally dark/dark/soul, before I could respec him with the dark app.
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Originally Posted by Aneko
The only Corruptor I've played to 50 (so far) is Dark/Dark/Dark.
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Where to find me after the end:
The Secret World - Arcadia - Shinzo
Rift - Faeblight - Bloodspeaker
LotRO - Gladden - Aranelion
STO - Holodeck - @Captain_Thiraas
Obviously, I don't care about NCSoft's forum rules, now.
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Three caveats to this principle:|
Originally Posted by dugfromthearth
fire probably does better damage solo, but on teams sonic will do more as the debuff to Res will make your teammates do more damaage.
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1. It's only with single hard targets. If you're running a mission with an AV, Fire will bring dramatically more damage to the table throughout the course of the mission since the bulk of damage being dealt is AE (where Fire does 4 - 5 times the damage of Sonic) to minions and players independently engaging the stray targets without piling on a single target. Only once you hit the AV will you be able to stack the debuffs and gain an advantage over Fire.
2. It only works if you have a low activity secondary. Every time you stop nuking to do something else during that AV fight, the impact of your resist debuffs is hurt. That's why Sonic/Sonic is such a popular combination - Sonic Resonance requires you do almost nothing during the fight, so you're free to endlessly lay in with nukes.
In contrast, Fire Blast doesn't suffer all that much from interruption since it merely skips the worst part of its rotation. A sequence of Blaze/Fire Blast/Something Else is nearly as damaging as Blaze/Fire Blast/Flares.
3. A Sonic Attack Corruptor is almost always a poor choice because while the actual damage dealt by Sonic Attack is less for a Defender, the debuffs are 33% larger. If a Sonic Attack Defender and a Sonic Attack Corruptor are both independently chain-nuking a target, they'll reduce the target to 50% at approximately the same speed (past 50%, Scourge gives an edge to the Corruptor). Coupled with the fact that the buff/debuff set is also going to be better for the Defender version, if you want to play Sonic Attack you almost always want to do so as a Defender.
In terms of other power sets, Ice Blast is a solid option to Fire. You'll have lower single target sustained dps, relatively similar AE dps in most situations (since both Rain of Fire and Ice Storm are overkill) and will be better solo/picking off runners due to BiB's superior Scourge performance.
Archery is also a possibility, but you'll only really outperform Fire in scattered AE situations (where you can't fully leverage Rain of Fire) and with Trick Arrow.
I don't know, I consider any build that can solo 4/8 a win regardless of what the primary or secondary are.
1. Why Soft Cap is Important : http://dechskaison.blogspot.com/2011...important.html
2. Limits: http://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Limits
3. Attack Mechanics: http://wiki.cohtitan.com/wiki/Attack_Mechanics
4. Rule of Five: http://wiki.cohtitan.com/wiki/Rule_o...e_Law_of_Fives
Fire is the only set remotely 'balanced' when it comes to Ranged Damage. For supposed Damage ATs, Range ATs have badly fallen off when it comes to their primary source of damage. This is not to ignore their debuffs, but This Is Not The Point.
Fire is the only set right now that does any comparable damage to the Melee Power Creep, and even Fire is falling behind over the years. If you want to contribute Damage with your Support, you really do have to go Fire.
Ice and Archery are decent alternatives, but they don't keep up as well.
Beam Rifle is just Less ST than Fire and none of it's AoE.
Balance!
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Indeed. For the most part the debuffs/utility in blast sets are weighted far too heavily, whereas debuffs/utility in melee sets are given minimal weight. And while Fire is the "outlier" it really is more of the balancing point that other sets should be brought up to.
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Originally Posted by Reppu
Fire is the only set remotely 'balanced' when it comes to Ranged Damage. For supposed Damage ATs, Range ATs have badly fallen off when it comes to their primary source of damage. This is not to ignore their debuffs, but This Is Not The Point.
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Which "Damage" ATs are you talking about? |
Originally Posted by Reppu
Fire is the only set remotely 'balanced' when it comes to Ranged Damage. For supposed Damage ATs, Range ATs have badly fallen off when it comes to their primary source of damage. This is not to ignore their debuffs, but This Is Not The Point.
Fire is the only set right now that does any comparable damage to the Melee Power Creep, and even Fire is falling behind over the years. If you want to contribute Damage with your Support, you really do have to go Fire. Ice and Archery are decent alternatives, but they don't keep up as well. Beam Rifle is just Less ST than Fire and none of it's AoE. Balance! |
The only Damage AT that gets Fire Blast is Blasters. Defenders are Support ATs, and Corruptors are Hybrid Damage/Support ATs, not pure Damage. (If they were meant to be pure Damage, they would not have gotten Support secondaries)
So, the answer to melee power creep is.......ranged power creep?
All of the blast sets perform perfectly well at their job. It's just a matter of figuring out what their job is in the first place. And sorry Reppu, but saying every AT's job is damage and nothing else is a load of crap. (I remember you saying that a Controller's job was damage, that's why I say that)
If you buff all the other blast sets up to the damage output level of Fire Blast, all the other sets will then be overpowered, because they will have the same damage output plus secondary effects. It's the whole "be careful what you wish for" scenario, because if the other sets were buffed to be equal to Fire in damage.....Fire would then be the WORST blast set because it offers absolutely nothing else.
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Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison See, it's gems like these that make me check Claws' post history every once in a while to make sure I haven't missed anything good lately. |
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Fire and Ice are relatively balanced with one another in the manner you believe. Subtract the burn effect from Fire and you get Ice Blast with different options (Hold vs. Snipe/Targeted AE).|
Originally Posted by ClawsandEffect
If you buff all the other blast sets up to the damage output level of Fire Blast, all the other sets will then be overpowered, because they will have the same damage output plus secondary effects. It's the whole "be careful what you wish for" scenario, because if the other sets were buffed to be equal to Fire in damage.....Fire would then be the WORST blast set because it offers absolutely nothing else.
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But everything else lags way behind. It's not so much an issue of raising the damage so they're competitive with Fire - they're not even remotely competitive with Ice.
Originally, you could argue that this was balanced due to recharge and endurance use. Fire and Ice burn through end a ton faster than other sets do. You need perma-Hasten levels of recharge to actually run their high dps single target cycles or make good use of their Rains.
In the modern game, these 'limitations' aren't really limitations at all. You've just got two sets that dramatically outperform the other sets - and one of those two sets that performs the core task of a blast set (dealing damage) a lot better than the other.
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Yes, other sets lag behind if you ONLY consider damage. |
Originally Posted by Beauregard
Fire and Ice are relatively balanced with one another in the manner you believe. Subtract the burn effect from Fire and you get Ice Blast with different options (Hold vs. Snipe/Targeted AE).
But everything else lags way behind. It's not so much an issue of raising the damage so they're competitive with Fire - they're not even remotely competitive with Ice. Originally, you could argue that this was balanced due to recharge and endurance use. Fire and Ice burn through end a ton faster than other sets do. You need perma-Hasten levels of recharge to actually run their high dps single target cycles or make good use of their Rains. In the modern game, these 'limitations' aren't really limitations at all. You've just got two sets that dramatically outperform the other sets - and one of those two sets that performs the core task of a blast set (dealing damage) a lot better than the other. |
And like I said, if you buff those sets up to be equal to Fire's damage, it will make Fire the worst set because those other sets will have the exact same damage output, with useful secondary effects on top of it. Can you imagine how broken Sonic would be if you buffed its base damage to equal Fire? It would have the same damage, and a secondary effect that lets it deal damage ABOVE the damage cap.
Fire's extra damage IS its secondary effect. It always has been.
It's actually the secondary effect of all Fire sets, regardless of AT.
Fire Melee? Damage DoT as secondary effect.
Fire Control? It has Hot Feet and the pets are strictly there for damage, they do nothing else.
Even Fiery Aura has more damage as its gimmick, and it gives up survivability to get it.
Blaster Fire Manipulation is the same. It has 3 utility powers, and the rest of the set is pure damage. It even has the highest damaging immobilize power out of the blaster secondaries.
Fire powers get extra damage because, almost without exception, they provide no mitigation whatsoever. Fire Blast has only one way of reducing incoming damage: Kill your enemy before it kills you. It doesn't get a stun, or a hold, or a sleep, or any kind of mez power at all that actually prevents damage (except Fire Control, but that's because it's a control set).
The other sets are VERY unlikely to get a buff to make them competitive with Fire, because that would remove the thing that is unique about Fire: It's damage output advantage. Give other sets similar damage output, and Fire will start to become the worst possible choice for just about any character.
Each set is good at something. Fire is only good at damage. If you make everything else just as good at damage, Fire will fall behind because it sucks at everything else.
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Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison See, it's gems like these that make me check Claws' post history every once in a while to make sure I haven't missed anything good lately. |
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If they buffed everything to Fire's level of damage, everything would be doing Average Melee Set Damage. Don't believe me? Tough, you read the forums enough to go find the threads yourself. Fire Blast is Bloody Average in the long-term of damage dealing sets.|
Originally Posted by ClawsandEffect
Which "Damage" ATs are you talking about?
The only Damage AT that gets Fire Blast is Blasters. Defenders are Support ATs, and Corruptors are Hybrid Damage/Support ATs, not pure Damage. (If they were meant to be pure Damage, they would not have gotten Support secondaries) So, the answer to melee power creep is.......ranged power creep? All of the blast sets perform perfectly well at their job. It's just a matter of figuring out what their job is in the first place. And sorry Reppu, but saying every AT's job is damage and nothing else is a load of crap. (I remember you saying that a Controller's job was damage, that's why I say that) If you buff all the other blast sets up to the damage output level of Fire Blast, all the other sets will then be overpowered, because they will have the same damage output plus secondary effects. It's the whole "be careful what you wish for" scenario, because if the other sets were buffed to be equal to Fire in damage.....Fire would then be the WORST blast set because it offers absolutely nothing else. |
Moreover, try to quote me and not assume you remember what I said. I said a Controller, once they've Controlled, should be dealing damage. When you've locked down a spawn, are you just going to go AFK for thirty seconds while the damage dealers clean up?
No! Deal damage! Or, if your support set is Active (Read: Time. Just Time, really), keep doing other stuff! But otherwise, nine times out of ten you better be dealing damage.
It's like those Empathy Defenders who take no attacks and assume they're only there to support. No, you're there to get kicked from the team so hard you fall into a Triple Hami Bloom.
So no, I'm sorry Claws. Let's review the AT's that get Fire Blast.
Defenders: Support/Ranged Damage AT. Note that second part. No, I'm sorry. This is not a "Support AT". This is a "Support/Ranged Damage" AT. In fact. Support/Ranged Damage.
I made it as obvious as I can, because people tend to ignore that last bit. When you're done supporting/debuffing, you better be dealing damage. Again, kicked so hard you'll land in a Triple Hami Bloom.
Corruptors: Ranged Damage/Support - Went ahead and put the emphasis there. As a Corruptor, you're there to deal damage. Your support is your secondary (and obviously your opening because derp). But you need to deal damage. Guess which is the only mildly useful Primary for Corruptors to deal actually competitive damage? Yeah, that one.
Blasters: Garbage/Garbage - Okay that's not nice but you know what I mean.
I won't get into Controllers. They have Containment. Their damage is deceptively high. When you have nothing else to do (often), deal damage or get out of the team. You have no reason not to. This? This was the point I was stressing. If you're done controlling, you can deal your Containment Damage like a Boss.
Like. A. Bawss.
And I'm sorry, the pathetic Secondary Effects of the other sets (Sonic Blast nonwitstanding ON DEFENDERS) is not worth Fire Blast's superior damage. It's not even the additional DoT Damage; Fire Blast is superior even ignoring that.
And, yes Claws. You can only fix the Melee Power Creep by buffing Ranged Sets. Or do you want to see the cosmic backlash of nerfing Titan Weapons and Street Justice, like I've been advocating? It won't happen, so we need buffs.
Fire Blast is equal to an average Melee Set right now. It SHOULD be "High End". It should be dealing damage roughly below Street Justice (and obviously Titan Weapons), because they shouldn't do QUITE as much damage as melee sets.
Everything else needs to be a degree or so lower than Fire Blast, but not radically so. Again, most of those secondary effects? Are pretty bad.
There's absolutely no reason why Fire Blast is roughly equal to Katana levels of performance when you get down to fully comparing them (maybe somewhat ahead, I don't remember the exact difference but Fire Blast was comparable to Katana, and Katana is Average Melee with the recent creepings of StJ/Titan Weapons/MA Buffs/Dual Blades/Kinetic Melee/Etc).
You buff Fire Blast to High End Melee, but not above that.
You buff everything else Above Average/Average depending on the set. They should get Fairly Close to Fire Blast but NEVER above Fire Blast. We're talking like maybe a 10% total damage difference, or so. The secondary effects aren't worth THAT much but it needs to be considered.
Oh, and Normalize the Range 40 Tier 3 Blasts. Seriously.
TL;DR - Corruptors are there to deal damage and support. Defenders are there to support and deal damage. Blasters are there to die. Controllers are there to deal damage when they've done their controlling/supporting as needed. If any of these AT's are failing to deal damage (sans Blasters, they're there to die), after performing their designated tasks, they're not performing at peak optimization and need to get intimate with Hamidon.
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roflmao!
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Originally Posted by reppu
blasters are there to die.
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The development team and this community deserved better than this from NC Soft. Best wishes on your search.
Do I need to go into how many times my Scrappers have been rendered completely useless on a team because the entire spawn is dead before I even get close enough to attack it?
That scrapper who runs ahead? He's not showing off, he's trying to feel like he's actually doing something because he's frustrated at getting to a spawn too late every time.
Why does that happen? Because ranged damage sets have....well, range. Any melee set that doesn't have significant ranged ability built in is at an inherent disadvantage to a ranged character. Don't believe me? Join a team that has 2 or more ranged damage dealers with a melee character and watch how much of a given spawn is obliterated before you are even in range to attack. If you're lucky you might get a hit or two on a boss or kill a LT with a sliver of health left.
Say a spawn is 60 feet away. Every ranged set in the entire game can attack that spawn from right where they are standing. A melee character has to spend at least a couple seconds closing that distance before he can attack anything at all. In the "modern game" people keep spouting off about, that means everything but a boss is going to be dead before the melee character even reaches the spawn.
I couldn't even tell you how many teams I've quit because I felt like a leecher. I'd head toward the spawn to start attacking, only to have the last enemy drop dead right as I get to him. I would then start going ahead of the team so I could actually attack things, only to get yelled at and told to stay with the team.
Even with the supposed melee damage advantage, a ranged character can kill enemies before that melee is close enough to deal any damage at all. It's a simple fact: Add enough ranged damage dealers and you make melee characters completely useless on a team. There is no place for a scrapper on a team that has 2 blasters or corruptors already.
If you start buffing ranged sets, all that damage that melee sets have is going to mean squat, because they will hardly ever get to use it on a team unless they run ahead and get yelled at. Lots of ranged damage = useless melee.
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Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison See, it's gems like these that make me check Claws' post history every once in a while to make sure I haven't missed anything good lately. |
I haven't run the numbers but I'm a bit confused as to how a Fire Corruptor is only as effective as a Katana scrapper. Maybe 1 to 1 against an EB or something (which is probably about right balance-wise) but on a typical 8 man team the Fire Corruptor should be throwing out tonnes more damage?
I've played a Broadsword scrapper (BS/Fire in fact) and a Fire/Dark corruptor and the difference between the 2 is enormous on teams, the Fire/Dark just melts things on a scale the Scrapper can't match. In fact I gave up playing the scrapper due to how slow the animations were and how annoying chasing things to finish it off was.
Ditto with my Nova Form Warshade, yes the single target damage is meh but the AOE frequently mows down the entire spawn around the meleers who are still fighting a boss.
Maybe on paper there's some proof that meleers do more damage but in-game I've never really felt range damage folk were killing less than their melee counterparts, especially on large teams.
I've recently gotten into playing corruptors. There are several secodaries that I still want to try, but every time I make one, I look at the primaries, and want to play fire blast every time. I love it conceptually, and performance wise it seems to outshine the other sets as well.
Do others feel this way, or is it just me? Are there other sets you would encourage me to try out?