Is there a point to anything but fire?


Aneko

 

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Originally Posted by ClawsandEffect View Post
This post hurts.
Sounds like Judgment Powers to me, and not the average Ranged AoE set. IE: Not Fire Blast. IE: Not Rain of Arrows Shenanigans. Because I know for a fact you're hyperboling like mad about 2 Blasters or 2 Corruptors instan-gibbing every single spawn because you can get into melee. As a Scrapper. One of the more survivable AT's in the game. The AT that should jump in, eat the dang Alpha, and AoE everything so the Squishier Ranged AT's can Debuff and Blast in peace.

Those people who are NOT instantly wiping out a spawn before you attack.

Sorry, Judgment Powers don't count because... you get to use them.

Rain of Arrows is an Outlier and Archery isn't that popular.

Fire Blast's major AoE is heavily DoT based.

It's... it's like you're trying to advocate the Ranged Sets being underperforming because Judgment powers are ranged and Rain of Arrows is stupid.

I have to agree with that quote in your signature now. This was quite the gem.

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Originally Posted by Carnifax_NA View Post
I haven't run the numbers but I'm a bit confused as to how a Fire Corruptor is only as effective as a Katana scrapper. Maybe 1 to 1 against an EB or something (which is probably about right balance-wise) but on a typical 8 man team the Fire Corruptor should be throwing out tonnes more damage?

I've played a Broadsword scrapper (BS/Fire in fact) and a Fire/Dark corruptor and the difference between the 2 is enormous on teams, the Fire/Dark just melts things on a scale the Scrapper can't match. In fact I gave up playing the scrapper due to how slow the animations were and how annoying chasing things to finish it off was.

Ditto with my Nova Form Warshade, yes the single target damage is meh but the AOE frequently mows down the entire spawn around the meleers who are still fighting a boss.

Maybe on paper there's some proof that meleers do more damage but in-game I've never really felt range damage folk were killing less than their melee counterparts, especially on large teams.
Their AoE is better than Katana (the margin isn't as large as you'd hope aside from Corruptors, by the way), but their Single Target really isn't aside from Specific and Extreme Circumstances (Read: Keeping Spiderlings alive).

So... no not really. That Fire Corruptor really isn't doing THAT much more damage. Maybe in the enviroment of AoE damage if you focus PURELY on AoE damage (Which is a flaw. Two years ago I'd agree AoE is all that matters, but Single Target importance is on a rise), but that isn't what a Power Set is defined by.

Fire Blast has Great ST and Great AoE. For a Blast Set.

Katana has a Good Single Target and Good AoE. For a Melee Set.

Fire Blast's ST isn't that much ahead of or equal to Katana.

Fire Blast's AoE is superior to Katana.

Katana is an Average Melee Set.

Fire Blast is the best Ranged Damage Set in the game (and arguably the best Ranged Set in the game because, again, most Ranged Secondary Effects are not worth the Damage and Blaze is one of the few T3 blasts that doesn't suck read; is probably overpowered but is actually pretty average now due to the melee power creep.)

This? Is not balanced.


Edit: Oh, and if anyone even attempts to say "OH but they can deal damage from ranged so it's k' if they do an average of 50% less damage.", you KNOW you're wrong for even suggesting that. Being able to engage in combat a whole 1 second sooner is not worth that damage difference.


 

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Back to the OP's original question.

Yes. There is a tendency to lump the same ATs together as though they are expected to perform and progress in a similar fashion. But, I think doing this is only going to lead to disappointment for someone.

I see comparisons: Corruptors vs Scrappers

What? Perhaps, when taking into account they dish out similar damage. Perhaps not. Player A may have his alpha attack slotted well, Player B not so well. Playstyles vary.

You could give me the "best" PvP Ice/ice/Cold Mastery Blaster build, throw me into Recluse's Victory and I may not shine like other players who haven't logged 4000 hours on their ice blaster like I have. They might beat me silly because of my tendency to lead with freeze ray, even on targets that aren't going to get held.

Different powersets within the same ATs are going to perform differently. Each player must compare and contrast with their own playstyles. Do they do nothing but team with others? Then maybe fire is the way to go, because they don't need to worry so much about mitigation. Maybe it's not, because they should bring more to the table in that context.

In the end, it's who had fun and who didn't. The one who had fun wins.
If you didnt' have fun, you take a moment and find out why. Do you need KB to buy you some time because your reflexes are slow? or is your damage just that weak? Or, are your tactics just that bad? Are your tactics sound, but your strategy in using that tactic poorly executed?
Only the one behind the keyboard can really make that call.

To the OP: if it means anything, I've looked at all my powersets across all ATs, and i've got more fire primaries and secondaries than any other powerset. For me, it's because I don't want to think about the delay in killing by holding or immobilizing or sleeping or fearing. I just want the NPC trying to kill me to be dead. When I solo, my objective is not XP, but merits. I want it over and done with ASAP so at the end of the day, I'll be closer to getting this goodie or that badge, whatever. Sets that mitigate damage are wonderful! They may not be suitable for every job, and that's ok. The fire/* corruptor isn't suitable for every job either.

Fire is great! They're all great.


"Most people that have no idea what they are doing have no idea that they don't know what they are doing." - John Cleese

@Ukase

 

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Originally Posted by Reppu View Post
Oh, and if anyone even attempts to say "OH but they can deal damage from ranged so it's k' if they do an average of 50% less damage.", you KNOW you're wrong for even suggesting that. Being able to engage in combat a whole 1 second sooner is not worth that damage difference.
50% less damage?

Utter bullcrap. Unless you can mathematically PROVE that corruptors deal an average of 50% less damage compared to a scrapper, stalker or brute, that statement is pure bullfeces.

Tell me, before Incarnate powers, or Envenomed Dagger, how many melee characters successfully soloed Giant Monsters? Yes, they can do it NOW, with the advent of Lore pets and Interface, and chucking temp powers at them. Before that stuff? Not a chance.

Ranged ATs have been doing it for years now. My Rad/Sonic Defender can solo GMs.
Ill/Rad Controllers are known for doing it. Hell, even a well built BLASTER can solo a GM. None of my melee characters can even hope to on their BEST day, not a single one, and I'm no noob at building them.

Now, why is it ranged ATs can do something that no melee AT can do, using just powers from their primary and secondary? Because they get debuffs. It makes a big difference. You know what else matters? Damage output. All the debuffs in the world don't mean squat if you still can't deal enough damage to kill it. Yes, some sets can debuff regeneration rates, but AVs and GMs resist the hell out of them, so it isn't making that huge of a difference.

You can't look at power sets in a vacuum. You have to look at what is available to pair them with as well. Which is why the blast sets are fine, because they are given to ATs that have other means of increasing their damage output.


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Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison
See, it's gems like these that make me check Claws' post history every once in a while to make sure I haven't missed anything good lately.

 

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Originally Posted by ClawsandEffect View Post
Yes, other sets lag behind if you ONLY consider damage.
I think the problem with fire is that it has the best AoE damage, the best Single Target damage, and arguably also some of the best mitigation. Rain of Fire provides top notch damage mitigation as it forces foes to flee the patch while being slowed-- and this mitigation stacks with your secondary and is available every spawn with just SOs. It also is prone to Scourge-Scourge-Scourge-Scourge.

In a game where AoE rules supreme, Rain of Fire beats out a single target mag 3 Stun or Hold attached to a set.


 

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Originally Posted by ClawsandEffect View Post
Yes, other sets lag behind if you ONLY consider damage.
They lag behind Ice Blast if you consider everything.

Ice Blast doesn't have an continuing burn effect. It has -hit/-recharge/-speed instead. Is -hit/-recharge/-speed such an abysmal secondary effect that it justifies doing double the damage of a set with -defense?

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Utter bullcrap. Unless you can mathematically PROVE that corruptors deal an average of 50% less damage compared to a scrapper, stalker or brute, that statement is pure bullfeces.
A Martial Arts Scrapper has a rotation of Thunder Kick (49.8 dpa), Storm Kick (78.2 dpa), Thunder Kick, Crippling Axe Kick (71.8 dpa). The total is 63.9 dps.

An Energy Blast Corruptor has a rotation of Power Bolt (35.1 dpa), Power Blast (37.0 dpa), Power Bolt, Power Burst (39.4 dpa). The total is 37.1 dps.

The Corruptor averages 30% from Scourge while the Scrapper averages 16% from criticals. The result is that the Scrapper does 53% more damage than the Corruptor.

Note that Energy Blast and Martial Arts are fairly 'stock' sets with no exceptional features (germane to our discussion) here. They both fall in the middle of the performance spectrum with regards to single target damage.


 

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I'm not one to argue with numbers but if you read later in the post I'm pretty sure you'll see that he's talking about debuffs balancing that a bit. So if you were to take your numbers and change them for something like freezing rain being present the numbers might not be so drastic.

Also I know this is the corrupter forum but proving that two average sets have a scrapper doing a lot more damage than a corrupter seems less useful to the general point being discussed ie range vs melee set balance. I imagine using blaster numbers would be more fair to that comparison.

In general there's a lot of proving to back up anecdotal statements in a lot of this thread. For instance:

Fire does the most single target damage

Fire does the most aoe damage

Fire is significantly ahead of all other ranged sets

What single and aoe damage of the melee sets are, to try to find just what average actually is.

The gap between average and the outliers in melee and ranged sets.

Edit: And the elephant in the room. Scaling.


 

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Originally Posted by slythetic View Post
I'm not one to argue with numbers but if you read later in the post I'm pretty sure you'll see that he's talking about debuffs balancing that a bit. So if you were to take your numbers and change them for something like freezing rain being present the numbers might not be so drastic.
Actually, he was talking about the debuffs on the blasts. And I pointed out - twice, no less - that even accounting for those debuffs doesn't justify the disparity between various blast sets.

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Also I know this is the corrupter forum but proving that two average sets have a scrapper doing a lot more damage than a corrupter seems less useful to the general point being discussed ie range vs melee set balance. I imagine using blaster numbers would be more fair to that comparison.
That's not actually the discussion. The actual discussion is "why is Fire Blast so out-of-line with the rest of the non-Ice Blast sets?"

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In general there's a lot of proving to back up anecdotal statements in a lot of this thread.
None of those statements are 'anecdotal'. We're not basing our opinions on "I play a Fire Blast Corruptor and I like it". We're basing them on the raw data - available in-game, on Mid's and on City of Data.

If you have a rotation you believe is competitive with Fire Blast for a Corruptor, we'd love to hear what it is. Maybe we missed something. But there really isn't any reason for someone to write a complete guide to every blast set available just so you can be spared the bother of looking it up.


 

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Originally Posted by ClawsandEffect View Post
A lot of derp and herp.
Somebody did the comparison of damage for me. Moving on, let me put emphasis on something; they weren't soloing GM's due to individual. You were soloing GM's for the reason YOU said with Envenomed Dagger: -Regen. And Regen is not equal to damage for anything but... GMs and other HP sponges.

You just don't get it and are just pulling weak excuses out now. Debuffs also do not only work for the caster; they work for the team. That 'Corruptor' who is supposedly 'insta-gibbing spawns' (which you're still lying about) is boosting YOUR damage as well. You get an equal amount of damage from THEIR powers. So please don't even go there.

And really, you're one of those people that says being able to solo a GM by abusing -Regen = DPS?

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Originally Posted by Beauregard View Post
They lag behind Ice Blast if you consider everything.

Ice Blast doesn't have an continuing burn effect. It has -hit/-recharge/-speed instead. Is -hit/-recharge/-speed such an abysmal secondary effect that it justifies doing double the damage of a set with -defense?



A Martial Arts Scrapper has a rotation of Thunder Kick (49.8 dpa), Storm Kick (78.2 dpa), Thunder Kick, Crippling Axe Kick (71.8 dpa). The total is 63.9 dps.

An Energy Blast Corruptor has a rotation of Power Bolt (35.1 dpa), Power Blast (37.0 dpa), Power Bolt, Power Burst (39.4 dpa). The total is 37.1 dps.

The Corruptor averages 30% from Scourge while the Scrapper averages 16% from criticals. The result is that the Scrapper does 53% more damage than the Corruptor.

Note that Energy Blast and Martial Arts are fairly 'stock' sets with no exceptional features (germane to our discussion) here. They both fall in the middle of the performance spectrum with regards to single target damage.
MA's pretty up there for Single Target, actually. But that's just Storm Kick being a beast. Also, you could easily swap out the uselessness that is Thunder Kick for Crane and Cobra and do infinitely more damage, I imagine. Or is that not a chainable?

Edit: Also, Fire Blast isn't out of line. The other Blast Sets are just, flatly, garbage for damage with poor secondary effects as faux justification. Fire Blast is the only reason why Ranged Damage is even on the radar. Everything else is really performing poorly and this is due to the Melee Power Creep and Melee Buffs in general. I think the last time Blast Sets got looked at was Archery way back when.

So no, Fire being out of line isn't overpowered.


 

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It seems there is a lot of insulting from some people which is uneeded.

I've played both a scrapper (MA/Shield) and a corrupter (Elec/pain).

Yes, fire wins for pure damage and yes, scrappers can out DPS corrupters, but there are a couple of things to remember.

1) Not every set has to be as powerful as fireblast. Yes, some sets do need a bit more oomph, but overall, not everything needs a damage increase.
2) The mitigation or debuffs other sets provide is important when looking at them. The support aspect of a corrupter can carry over to their attacks. Look at sonic for example, or rad, or ice. All of those powers help the team by increasing their damage, accuracy or meaning they have to deal a bit less damage to do something.
3) Other powers. A scrapper is in the thick of things, dealing damage and taking it. A corrupter can stand back and blast. This means for them, range can be surviability.


 

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Originally Posted by Trilby View Post
1) Not every set has to be as powerful as fireblast. Yes, some sets do need a bit more oomph, but overall, not everything needs a damage increase.
If you claim that Fire does more damage because it has additional damage rather than debuffs/control, then the only set balanced against Fire is Ice. All the other sets do markedly less damage even if you ignore the additional damage from Fire's burn effects.

The only set where the debuffs potentially make up for low damage would be Sonic. Even then this is only really true for the Defender version of the set, it only works when you have a low involvement buff set (such as Force Field or Sonic Resonance) and then only against a single hard target in a team/league setting. If you're willing to accept all those tradeoffs, then Sonic Blast can be fairly useful.

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3) Other powers. A scrapper is in the thick of things, dealing damage and taking it. A corrupter can stand back and blast. This means for them, range can be surviability.
The issue is less a matter of survivability than a rebuttal to the argument that Corruptors get a support secondary without acknowledging that armor sets provide plenty of support as well.

But this really isn't about "Scrapper vs. Corruptor". It's about the fact that the various blast sets aren't remotely balanced.


 

Posted

Back to the OP's original question (again), I feel much the same way to a large extent. Thing is, I would not enjoy playing a fire corruptor unless I had some sort of mitigation from the secondary. I have a /dark and a new /traps, both of which are great for that.

I can see the appeal of a fire/kin (who couldn't?) but it would be my idea of hell to play. When I wanted a villainous /kin, I made it ice/, for the holds and slows. I found out later that the nuke (which I tend not to take on fire corruptors) with fulcrum shift is quite a lovely thing.

On the other hand, I have an archery/rad, which, while not bad, is pretty "meh" for me. It's a very solid team player (and beats the holy heck out of rad/archery defender which it started out as), it still lacks the "oomph" of a fire/anything.

I agree that fire/ has no mitigation whatsoever. None. But on a corruptor, you don't need to have mitigation from the primary - you can get it in spades from the secondary.


 

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I have a 50 Rad/Therm Cor and i absolutely love him. Useful in all SF/TF and can do some dmg/debuff.


 

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Assault Rifle's Full Auto. Hit the button and spin the camera 360 degrees a few times. Can't do that with Fire yo.


 

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Originally Posted by Beauregard View Post
A Martial Arts Scrapper has a rotation of Thunder Kick (49.8 dpa), Storm Kick (78.2 dpa), Thunder Kick, Crippling Axe Kick (71.8 dpa). The total is 63.9 dps.

An Energy Blast Corruptor has a rotation of Power Bolt (35.1 dpa), Power Blast (37.0 dpa), Power Bolt, Power Burst (39.4 dpa). The total is 37.1 dps.

The Corruptor averages 30% from Scourge while the Scrapper averages 16% from criticals. The result is that the Scrapper does 53% more damage than the Corruptor.

Note that Energy Blast and Martial Arts are fairly 'stock' sets with no exceptional features (germane to our discussion) here. They both fall in the middle of the performance spectrum with regards to single target damage.

In fairness, those are the numbers before applying buffs and debuffs. The Corruptor probably does typically do less damage than a Scrapper in my experience, but not 50% less when all is said and done. Most Corruptor sets carry around a 20-30% resist debuff at minimum or else +damage (sometimes both).

On a team, of course, it gets trickier: both the Scrapper and Corruptor benefit from the Corruptor's debuff.


 

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Originally Posted by Oedipus_Tex View Post
In fairness, those are the numbers before applying buffs and debuffs. The Corruptor probably does typically do less damage than a Scrapper in my experience, but not 50% less when all is said and done. Most Corruptor sets carry around a 20-30% resist debuff at minimum or else +damage (sometimes both).

On a team, of course, it gets trickier: both the Scrapper and Corruptor benefit from the Corruptor's debuff.
It's not that tricky, any damage your team does due to a buff/debuff you put out there is YOUR damage.
The scrapper and the rest of your team are just your pets.


 

Posted

There are 4 sets that I would try and they are distinctive enough IMO.

1. Fire: Best raw damage period but you get like almost no control at all.

2. Ice: Great controls/debuffs and very good ST damage. It's one of the best soloing sets.

3. Sonic: Great ST damage and controls for soloing and its -resistance can stack up very very nicely. It's perfect for a team that needs to kill a tough AV/Monster. When you have a sonic on an AV, you can really tell the increased dps as a team.

4. Dark: It used to lack a tier 3 attack but now Life Drain is a decent attack on a much shorter recharge. It's the only primary set with self healing that can be used once every 8s or less. Dark also has good soft controls. I think it's unique enough to try.

The rest are ok. I hate Radiation. I prefer Beam Rifle on Blaster (due to redraws). I find Psionic damage too resisted when it happens and it really doesn't excel in any area. Archery is better on Blaster with Aim/Build Up IMO. Energy blast is just a very very mediocre set. Assault Rifle has good aoe but doesn't stand out enough for me. Electricity Blast has good aoe but Fire is better. Dual Pistol has good aoe but ST damage is quite bad with long animation time.


What's left is to normalize all Assassin Strikes and improve Stalker's old sets (Claw, MA and EM)! You don't need to bring back the missing PbAoE attack. You just need to make the existing ones better! For example, make Slice a WIDER and LONGER cone.

 

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Originally Posted by StratoNexus View Post
Not to disappoint, but they nerfed camspin a bit.
I just tried it and it is true.


 

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Originally Posted by Jibikao View Post
4. Dark: It used to lack a tier 3 attack but now Life Drain is a decent attack on a much shorter recharge. It's the only primary set with self healing that can be used once every 8s or less. Dark also has good soft controls. I think it's unique enough to try.

I didn't know they altered Life Drain....what did they do to it, or when?


Don't I know you???

 

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Originally Posted by dougnukem View Post
I didn't know they altered Life Drain....what did they do to it, or when?
I think it never made it into the patch notes (despite that being pointed out in Beta), but they gave it something like the make-over that Siphon Life in Dark Melee got a long time ago now - it does more damage on a shorter recharge, while the healing was left alone.


Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA

 

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Originally Posted by UberGuy View Post
I think it never made it into the patch notes (despite that being pointed out in Beta), but they gave it something like the make-over that Siphon Life in Dark Melee got a long time ago now - it does more damage on a shorter recharge, while the healing was left alone.
Interesting, thanks! Gonna have to check it out, and make a new Dark/ corruptor then.


Don't I know you???

 

Posted

(sorry for raising this thread from the dead, didn't realize it was almost a month old before I commented.)

Is there a point to corruptor blast sets other than Fire?

Certainly. As someone who tends to solo a lot, and someone who even occasionally turns off xp in order to make sure I hit all the content I want, I value mitigation on my corruptors. When I made a /Sonic Resonance corruptor, I looked for a blast set that would help me cope with the real lack of mitigation in my secondary. Dark blast was perfect, offering both a -to hit effect, some controls (aoe stun and immobilize), and a self heal.

When I wanted to make a /Kinetics corruptor, I knew I wanted something that would allow me to stay within melee range of my enemies (to best leverage Fulcrum Shift, the heal, and the endurance power). Radiation blast offered a pbaoe blast, a targeted aoe blast that can be used in melee range, a secondary effect that helps my kinetics powers hit (the -defense) and a stun in the third blast to help put mezzing enemies out of commission. Fire blast actually would have been okay here, though the lack of mezzing powers or any mitigation would have meant lots of time running back from the hospital.

My main is an Ice/Cold. I made him before I knew anything about synergy in this game, but in retrospect Cold was only doable by a neophyte like me because Ice's mitigation carried me until Cold's late blooming awesomeness began to kick in.

Because I am concerned about character concept, synergy with my secondary, and soloability at all levels, I almost always choose something other than Fire blast. I do really want to make a Fire/Dark. Fire/Dark has good synergy and soloability, but I just haven't found the right concept yet.


 

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Originally Posted by Pattern Walker View Post
(sorry for raising this thread from the dead, didn't realize it was almost a month old before I commented.)

Is there a point to corruptor blast sets other than Fire?

Certainly. As someone who tends to solo a lot, and someone who even occasionally turns off xp in order to make sure I hit all the content I want, I value mitigation on my corruptors. When I made a /Sonic Resonance corruptor, I looked for a blast set that would help me cope with the real lack of mitigation in my secondary. Dark blast was perfect, offering both a -to hit effect, some controls (aoe stun and immobilize), and a self heal.

When I wanted to make a /Kinetics corruptor, I knew I wanted something that would allow me to stay within melee range of my enemies (to best leverage Fulcrum Shift, the heal, and the endurance power). Radiation blast offered a pbaoe blast, a targeted aoe blast that can be used in melee range, a secondary effect that helps my kinetics powers hit (the -defense) and a stun in the third blast to help put mezzing enemies out of commission. Fire blast actually would have been okay here, though the lack of mezzing powers or any mitigation would have meant lots of time running back from the hospital.

My main is an Ice/Cold. I made him before I knew anything about synergy in this game, but in retrospect Cold was only doable by a neophyte like me because Ice's mitigation carried me until Cold's late blooming awesomeness began to kick in.

Because I am concerned about character concept, synergy with my secondary, and soloability at all levels, I almost always choose something other than Fire blast. I do really want to make a Fire/Dark. Fire/Dark has good synergy and soloability, but I just haven't found the right concept yet.
In response to this, the answer is still really 'No'. While Dark brings -ToHit, it brings substantially less damage. It's offered mitigation is not worth the damage loss. Killing things faster is it's own form of mitigation.

The same goes for Radiation; the damage loss is not worth the -DEF.

Ice would probably one of the only contenders against Fire, due to Ice Storm and a good single target chain. Beyond that?

... Maybe Archery for some shenanigans with Rain of Arrows? Maybe.


 

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Originally Posted by Reppu View Post
In response to this, the answer is still really 'No'. While Dark brings -ToHit, it brings substantially less damage. It's offered mitigation is not worth the damage loss. Killing things faster is it's own form of mitigation.
Damage increase doesn't scale well against spawn size. A 25% increase in damage output may take you from an x4 spawn to an x5 spawn (no bosses). 25% improvement to your mitigation numbers (defense, disruption etc) can take you from an x4 spawn to an x8 spawn.

In dark's case you have an enormous amount of mitigation from dark pit, torrent, and life drain.


 

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Originally Posted by Another_Fan View Post
Damage increase doesn't scale well against spawn size. A 25% increase in damage output may take you from an x4 spawn to an x5 spawn (no bosses). 25% improvement to your mitigation numbers (defense, disruption etc) can take you from an x4 spawn to an x8 spawn.

In dark's case you have an enormous amount of mitigation from dark pit, torrent, and life drain.
And you're still doing substantially less damage because Dark Blast is a contender for Worst Blast Set In Game.

Either way, it's not my choice of mitigation-based set. Ice would be far and first.