Is there a point to anything but fire?


Aneko

 

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Originally Posted by Reppu View Post
In response to this, the answer is still really 'No'. While Dark brings -ToHit, it brings substantially less damage. It's offered mitigation is not worth the damage loss. Killing things faster is it's own form of mitigation.
See, this is where you say that you're being objective and numbers-based, but really you're just privileging your chosen set of criteria (raw damage output alone absent any evaluation of secondary powerset), while denigrating anyone else's set of criteria (say mitigation via mezzes and/or debuffs or synergy with secondary powerset). I fail to see how your set of criteria are objectively superior to mine. Another_Fan points out that there are multiple ways to quantify set performance, and while your attention to almost nothing beyond damage has the benefit of simplicity, that's also the drawback.

I guarantee you that Fire/Sonic would have been a nightmare of death and debt on my typical 85-90% solo leveling path, while my Dark/Sonic is one of my favorite characters. Dark certainly has the lowest damage output in raw per-blast numbers, but it offers a set of benefits that help make up for some of the challenges of soloing with Sonic Resonance. That has value.

I would certainly welcome any damage buff to all the non-fire/non-ice blast sets, though any such buff would make me even less likely to take Fire blast. Out of at least 20 Corruptors, I've only got 1 Fire blast character (in his mid-30s).


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Reppu View Post
And you're still doing substantially less damage because Dark Blast is a contender for Worst Blast Set In Game.

Either way, it's not my choice of mitigation-based set. Ice would be far and first.

I think I see the point of divergence here.

You are operating on the idea that your secondary/build/set bonuses/team can provide enough mitigation for full size spawns.

Under that case I would have to agree that the best choice would be fire with possible competition from sonic for the extra debuff on teams.


If however you don't have enough mitigation to handle maxed out spawns, other sets than fire can bridge the gap.


 

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Originally Posted by UberGuy View Post
I think it never made it into the patch notes (despite that being pointed out in Beta), but they gave it something like the make-over that Siphon Life in Dark Melee got a long time ago now - it does more damage on a shorter recharge, while the healing was left alone.
Life drain currently does about the normal damage for an 8 second recharge attack - which means it does less damage then gloom (which gets a minor boost since its a DoT) with a lot longer cast time, so as a DPA boosting attack it still pretty much sucks. If they had upped the recharge so it was a true tier 3 and given it appropriate damage it might be comparable to siphon life.

This is actually symptomatic of most of the problems with blast sets that Reppu is pointing out - because they standardized tier 1's and 2's for blaster defiance the DPS on those attacks is very fixed, especially if they have less than 4s/8s recharges. Add that to the fact that even when you get a decent tier 3 attack it rarely compares well to some of the better damaging attacks scrappers get and you have single target dpa that ranges from really sad to average at best.

Just compare the 'best' attacks in ranged sets to melee sets:

Blaze: 111-160 DPA depending on how many dot ticks hit
BiB: 107 DPA
Power Burst: 58 dpa
Executioners shot: 47
Piercing rounds: 52
Lancer Shot: 63
Blazing Arrow: 81

Disembowel: 68
Focus: 72
Midnight Grasp: 84
Incinerate: 93
GFS: 82
Crushing Uppercut: 91
Clobber: 138
Concentrated Strike: 75

There is an easy pattern to see - except for a few standouts (Blaze, BiB and Blazing arrow) all the melee sets I pulled from above features at least 1 single target attack with a far better DPA than the tier 3 ranged attacks - most of which are shorter range than other blaster attacks. Many of those melee sets will have other single target attacks that are at least as good as blaster attacks, if not better.

Even if you figure that blasters get enough AoE to balance out the lack of single target damage you run up against the fact that the best AoE sets are the ones that also have the best single target damage: Fire, Ice and Archery. (note that archery is actually decent AoE outside of RoA even, if not up to fires level - fistfull of arrows and Ex. Arrow are both very fast activating attacks that do decent damage).

Note that I used blaster and scrapper numbers in calculating the above DPA's, since it makes for a more balanced comparasin as they have the same AT damage mod for the attacks in question. I didn't add in crits for scrappers or defiance for blasters to keep things simple.


Globals: @Midnight Mystique/@Magik13

 

Posted

It's worth noting that the type of logic used here to defend Fire as the overly best option for corruptors can also be used to argue that everyone here should be playing SS/Fire brutes instead.

I don't feel gimped using a corruptor over an SS/Fire brute for the same reason I don't feel gimped using anything other than fire/ on corruptors.

In my experience on trials, I've never seen one corruptor massively outshine every other combo. Some are more useful than others, but that usually comes down to skill, and being in the right place in the right time, hitting the right target.

If anything, the difference of primaries doesn't matter nearly as much as the difference a /Kin brings to the team than a /Poison.



I'd also agree with ClawsandEffect. I feel I contribute a lot more on my ranged toons than melee toons, for the simple reason that I get more attacks in while the melees have to run around everywhere.


@Sentry4 @Sentry 4

PvP Redux is discontinued, for obvious reasons. Thanks to everyone who helped and joined.

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by EricHough View Post
Life drain currently does about the normal damage for an 8 second recharge attack - which means it does less damage then gloom (which gets a minor boost since its a DoT) with a lot longer cast time, so as a DPA boosting attack it still pretty much sucks. If they had upped the recharge so it was a true tier 3 and given it appropriate damage it might be comparable to siphon life.
I was not saying it was comparable to Siphon Life. I was saying they gave it a similar treatment in terms of what they changed about it.

It still isn't a great attack, but it's noticeably better than it was, and in cases where you're trying to build a single-target attack chain, it beats the pants off of Moonbeam.


Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Reppu View Post
And you're still doing substantially less damage because Dark Blast is a contender for Worst Blast Set In Game.

Either way, it's not my choice of mitigation-based set. Ice would be far and first.
These sound like single-target damage considerations. I freely admit that Dark Blast's single-target damage is pants. However, I use it regularly to solo on 54/x8 in both Incarnate and non-Incarnate content (so +3 foes or +1 foes with +14% toHit), and find the cones and immobilize invaluable for being able to pull that off - far easier than with Ice Blast, for example. (And in Incarnate content, you're usually getting 2-4 bosses per spawn.)

Yes, when it gets down to the bosses it absolutely slows down a lot. But I think that's actually pretty well balanced by how effectively it neuters large numbers foes up to the aggro cap on Corruptors. Ice Blast absolutely melts the hard targets faster, but definitely isn't as good at helping manage all the LTs and minions. And on a Corruptor, you're not going to be clearing them out with one pass of your AoEs - especially not against +3s.

Do I think Dark Blast is exactly where it ought to be? No. I'd actually like for Life Drain to have even better DPA that it got. But the set has real use in my opinion. It just may not be a use everyone gets mileage out of, since they may not all be off soloing at x8.


Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA

 

Posted

Clearly the set with the most point is Archery. *ba-dum-tish*

Fire does a lot of damage. Ice does good damage and some decent ST control. But a large part of their AoE depends on keeping things in rain patches. Archery does good damage, but the redraw can quickly become annoying if paired with an active set. Sonic is good for hard targets and has a lot of control. Dark has good AoE, gets you hit less, keeps stuff out of melee and adds a heal you might not have in your other set. Psi has decent damage and it's hard to find a power in it that doesn't have significant mitigation attached.

Blast sets are like cars: they all have the goal of getting from A to B but top speed isn't the only thing worth looking at.


 

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Who knows, maybe water blast will have good AoE and ST damage as well as some decent mitigation. Then we'll have a "Is there a point to anything but water?" thread.



 

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Quote:
It's worth noting that the type of logic used here to defend Fire as the overly best option for corruptors can also be used to argue that everyone here should be playing SS/Fire brutes instead.
This doesn't work for several reasons.

First, you make the assumption any potential disparity between powersets is always of the exact same amount compared to its best option in any given archetype. That just isn't true.

Second, you're comparing a primary to a combo - especially on an AT where your role is largely determined by your secondary.

If people were crazy about performance they should definitely play nothing but SS/fire brutes, though. It's an underrated combo. Yes, I'm saying this with a straight face.


 

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Originally Posted by Nihilii View Post
If people were crazy about performance they should definitely play nothing but SS/fire brutes, though. It's an underrated combo. Yes, I'm saying this with a straight face.
If Rage didn't crash I think everyone would. I agree it is underrated.

On topic I must be the only one thinking that Fire Blast doesn't have enough AoE (Breath sucks, RoF is great, everyone can get Fireball).


Princess Darkstar - Proud Member of the Handprints of Union, the #1 ranked SG in Europe!
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Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by ClawsandEffect View Post
Do I need to go into how many times my Scrappers have been rendered completely useless on a team because the entire spawn is dead before I even get close enough to attack it?

That scrapper who runs ahead? He's not showing off, he's trying to feel like he's actually doing something because he's frustrated at getting to a spawn too late every time.
Claws, I always follow your posts and I usually agree with you 99,99% of the time. But... I just couldn`t hold myself and tell you to stop joining teams running +0 difficulty...

For real, if you are having this kind of issues on a team, it`s time to boost the dificulty a little bit. Plus, mobs on DA arcs are usually just too spread for ranged characters AoE them all to death in 2 seconds.

I play both a melee and ranged characters and the only times I had this issue with a melee, I`d ask the leader to bump the difficulty because things were melting way too fast for the team take fully advantage of their potential.

You also don`t really need to -fill- the team to be effective anymore, you can just run with 5 good guys a +3-4x8 where everyone contributes and have fun.


Now back to the post.

Fire is overrated because people only see the pretty damage numbers. Debuff is useful, and ranged damage is fine the way it is. I play a rad/time corruptor with Achiles` Heel proc on every power of my attack chain, and I can solo AV`s faster than my fire/rad.

Rad/rad is a debuff beast..., -def (and achiles proc) on all your primary and massive debuffage on your secundary.

Sonic is a hell of a effective x8 soloer with siren`s song. You can put chance of placate and heal on it, control a whole spawn as you pick mobs with single target attacks.

Dark is effective with a secundary that grants you good defense, like /dark, /traps or /time, the to hit debuff stacks really well with defense buffs, you can get def cap easily with a dark/time if you account the to hit debuff. Oh, it has a decent self heal now too.

Archery/kin anyone? Stack syphon speed, get a nice Fulcrum shift on one pack of mobs, then RoA on the next, with syphon speed, it takes little recharge to get RoA down to 20 seconds.


In short, corruptor`s primaries are fine. (save from a couple really bad ones, like elec) It`s a matter of knowing what secundary to combo with your primary to maximize it`s strenghts.


WARNING!
The post above was made by a brutally honest person. It may contain sarcasm, dark humour, offensive language and typos! Don't lose your time trying to correct my spelling, english is not even my primary language...
My first guide, i15 plant/thorn dominator! Check it. NOW!

 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Panikaze View Post
Archery/kin anyone? Stack syphon speed, get a nice Fulcrum shift on one pack of mobs, then RoA on the next, with syphon speed, it takes little recharge to get RoA down to 20 seconds.
First serious Corr and I like it well enough


 

Posted

Well, water blast is officially on beta now and it's a beast. It's got the 3 standard single target attacks, but they're all 80ft range. It's also got a single target attack/heal over time, similar to life drain, also with an 80ft range. So that makes a 4 attacks available for a single target attack chain. On top of that it has a cone attack, a targetted aoe, a crashless nuke that's also a targetted aoe, plus a location damage skill like rain of fire. The animations are pretty smooth and fast as well for the most part.

My guess is it will be nerfed some before it makes it live, but even then it will probably be one of the top, if not the top, ranged attack set.



 

Posted

Alternatively, maybe if they like that powerset layout, a case can be made for extending the range of the "hard-hitter" attacks and the range of things like Life Drain.


Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by UberGuy View Post
Alternatively, maybe if they like that powerset layout, a case can be made for extending the range of the "hard-hitter" attacks and the range of things like Life Drain.
That would be nice. Currently I think archery is the only set where the "hard-hitter" has the full 80ft range. I'll have to check later to see if that's accurate. Also having a non-weapon set with a crashless nuke helps make the case for removing crashes from the other nukes.



 

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Originally Posted by Zaloopa View Post
Also having a non-weapon set with a crashless nuke helps make the case for removing crashes from the other nukes.
They have left it with a longer than usual recharge though.


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Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zaloopa View Post
That would be nice. Currently I think archery is the only set where the "hard-hitter" has the full 80ft range. I'll have to check later to see if that's accurate. Also having a non-weapon set with a crashless nuke helps make the case for removing crashes from the other nukes.
Will Domination from Psychic Blast has a 100ft range.

Though, Blazing Arrow and Will Domination are both scale 1.96 (before bonus effects), while most other "hard-hitters" are scale 2.12 (Bitter Ice Blast is scale 2.28, but has a longer recharge and higher end cost, along with 10ft more range than the scale 2.12 attacks).

Blazing Arrow ends up doing more damage than all but Blaze, though. Most likely because it is one of the few that has no built in damage mitigation, also like Blaze. Shout also has no built in mitigation, but doesn't get any sort of trade off. In fact, it costs the most endurance (besides the higher scale BiB) and takes the longest to animate and gets nothing in return. >_>


Trickshooter's Characters | @Trickshooter @Brightside

 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by PrincessDarkstar View Post
They have left it with a longer than usual recharge though.
I can't speak for everyone but I would be more than happy with that tradeoff. As it is now I never use nukes on my non-weapon corruptors because unlike blasters I usually have a team that needs my buffs or debuffs.

Also, Synapse just made some changes to water blast, the range of the hard-hitter was reduced to 40ft.



 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zaloopa View Post
That would be nice. Currently I think archery is the only set where the "hard-hitter" has the full 80ft range. I'll have to check later to see if that's accurate. Also having a non-weapon set with a crashless nuke helps make the case for removing crashes from the other nukes.
Piercing Rounds in Dual Pistols is scale 2.11 at 80' range, although it's a cone instead of a t3 single target blast and so recharges slower and costs more endurance. Executioner's Shot is the 40' scale 2.12 attack, but animates slightly slower - I'm too lazy at the moment to do the Arcanatime calculation to see if they're the same number of ticks, though.

Although it doesn't really matter much: Water Jet's range is getting halved in a patch soon - Synapse posted some changes in the feedback thread and that was one of the things listed.

That said, it seems like a nice enough set just reading the descriptions and it looks great (at least in the character creator - the character I made on beta is only level 2). My only problem was trying to figure out what secondary I wanted to match it with.


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it has gone from unconscionable to downright appalling that we have no way of measuring our characters' wetness.
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Posted

Fire is great and all but many power sets have additional effects that stack very, very well will the corruptor secondaries.

Elec/Dark for example gets double holds for a mag 6 hold. That is actually quite powerful even against AVs

Ice's slow and holds are very nice as well

Dark's Immob is it's signature power that is actually very, very useful

Damage isn't everything in this game. Some say that at 50 it is and that is possibly true but thats only after incarnate.. and eve nthen Sonic is possibly better than fire in that catagory due to -res stacking.

The simple fact is that the extra damage from fire is as neglible as the secondary effect from most other powersets... it comes in the form of a DoT anyway, which is usually not left to kill off the foe, someone will come in and kill the enemy before the DoT finishes making that extra damage overkill.

Fire's real power comes from the super fast animation of Blaze. Serious single target damage with average AoE damage. Fireball carries fire's AoE weight as Firebreath really slows down the set and Rain of Fire is a DoT so it rarely does it's full damage anyway due to enemies moving out of it, getting killed too fast etc.

Scourge sounds nice with fire but honestly, I have found scourge on fire to be no more effective than any other set.

The real 'firepower' set is Sonic at the end. Radiation, with Achille's Heel proc can also hit some nice numbers. Archery's Ultimate make it an amazing contender for burst damage. People underestimate Rain of Arrows so much. There are other examples. Don't let Fire's slightly over exaggerated numbers trick you. It's not as powerful as it seems to be.


Whining about everything since 2006.

Ammo switching for Dual Pistols was my idea:
http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showthread.php?t=135484

 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vel_Overload View Post
Scourge sounds nice with fire but honestly, I have found scourge on fire to be no more effective than any other set.
You haven't used Rain of Fire enough. The Scourge ticks do twice as much damage as the regular ticks, meaning that it is more effective than any other set.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vel_Overload View Post
The real 'firepower' set is Sonic at the end. Radiation, with Achille's Heel proc can also hit some nice numbers. Archery's Ultimate make it an amazing contender for burst damage. People underestimate Rain of Arrows so much. There are other examples. Don't let Fire's slightly over exaggerated numbers trick you. It's not as powerful as it seems to be.
Sonic is better for damage on a team because the -resistance boosts everybody's damage but Sonic Blast is better on a Defender than a Corruptor because -resistance is all it has going for it. Radiation is proc-friendly (as will be Water Blast), and Corruptor Rain of Arrows is only stronger than Defender Rain of Arrows if it Scourges because the pseudopet was created with the wrong AT modifier being used - if you want to talk about Archery go with the Blaster version.


Quote:
Originally Posted by PleaseRecycle View Post
it has gone from unconscionable to downright appalling that we have no way of measuring our characters' wetness.
Quote:
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It's hard to beat the entertainment value of Whackjob Wednesdays.

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Siolfir View Post
You haven't used Rain of Fire enough. The Scourge ticks do twice as much damage as the regular ticks, meaning that it is more effective than any other set.
Rain of Fire is still a DoT aka it does it's damage over a fairly long period of time. and it's damage numbers are a bug that may or may not be fixed.. most likely not though because magic..

If Rain of Fire is so great then so is Ball Lightning, Short Circuit and other DoT attacks.. but sadly they aren't.

I'm not saying fire is bad because it certainly isn't... but I am saying that the extra damage component of Fire does not make it anywhere near the best set for corruptors. Archery is still amazing. Rad 'can' be amazing. Sonic is still the best in my humble opinion that is entirely up to debate.

Don't forget Ice also has the blaster-level damage on it's Ice Storm. Ice Also has delicious holds and the almighty Blizzard that kept it's Blaster Numbers.. that also procs off scourge.

But I think you were there when people made a mega thread comparing Blizzard (and similar rain powers) to nukes and I believe it was aruged that since the damage isn't in one burst that you cannot say that the enemy(s) will stay inside the rain for the entire duration so it's total damage is up to debate.

TL : DR - Rain of Fire may be nice, but if we're using that argument then Ice Blast has the upper hand.


Whining about everything since 2006.

Ammo switching for Dual Pistols was my idea:
http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showthread.php?t=135484

 

Posted

Ice doesn't 'Super Scourge'. That's pretty much why Ice Storm and Fire Blast aren't directly comparable. Also, Rain of Fire's 'Super Scourge' isn't a bug, but simply how it's damage is handled.

Also, as someone who plays an Archery Corruptor... it's really not that great. I tribute it to my inner masochist.


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Reppu View Post
Also, Rain of Fire's 'Super Scourge' isn't a bug, but simply how it's damage is handled.
However, it's an easy out if the devs ever feel the need to change RoF's Scourge.

Judging by how Defender's got a watered down RoF, the Blaster-level damage on other Rain Powers might also be considered a bug.

What about he upcoming water attack that functions like a Rain power, does it use the proper AT damage mods?


 

Posted

Fire: Has the best AoE damage and fine ST chain.

Dark: Has notverygoodbutberable AoE and kick *** ST (notably a wide choice of damage procs, and thats a lot of damage itself).

AR: Is not great overall but it becomes godly AoE combined with TA.

Sonic: Is the best ST damage on earth as soon as you arent solo.

Energy Blast: Is only good to stack recharge procs but I would only advice that on a Defender with a recharge intensive support power set.

Rad and DP: Stands in between Fire and Sonic for both pure damage and indirect damage.

Archery and Beam Riffle: Look cool. But thats it.

Elec and Ice: Has a top ST chain and a Hold. AoE arent amazing.

Psy Blast: Is kina crap unless your goal is to kill AVs under Unstoppable.




So if you want only direct damage with good AoE and ST, yeah go Fire.
If you are willing to trade direct for more indirect damage or AoE for control... than it starts to be a more complicated choice.