They also mentioned last night that the White Walkers (the Others in the books) haven't been seen in 1000 years, not the 8000 that we'd been throwing around.
It's definitely long enough to forget about the threat, but not so much that people would stop upholding the traditions of the Nights Watch.
Arc# 92382 -- "The S.P.I.D.E.R. and the Tyrant" -- Ninjas! Robots! Praetorians! It's totally epic! Play it now!
Arc # 316340 -- "Husk" -- Azuria loses something, a young woman harbors a dark secret, and the fate of the world is in your hands.
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The 8000 is when the Wall was built, the 1000 is how long its been since there were reports of Others.|
Originally Posted by Defenestrator
They also mentioned last night that the White Walkers (the Others in the books) haven't been seen in 1000 years, not the 8000 that we'd been throwing around.
It's definitely long enough to forget about the threat, but not so much that people would stop upholding the traditions of the Nights Watch. |
And yes, Brienne was great as well as the others you've mentioned.
@Mental Maden @Maden Mental
"....you are now tackle free for life."-ShoNuff
Everything was great about last night's episode. Easily the best of the season so far.
Global name: @k26dp
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Shame on me for getting the quote wrong. I re-watched it today and she actually says "Anyone can be killed". So there you go!
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Originally Posted by Slaunyeh
Eowyn: I am no man!
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Agua Man lvl 48 Water/Electric Blaster
"To die hating NCSoft for shutting down City of Heroes, that was Freedom."
My Favorite characters from the books are Aria, Daenerys and Tyrion. So far in the show they still are though Tyrion is getting more air time to be awesome.
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agreed,
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Originally Posted by Quasadu
I agree that 8000 years is a bit much to ask. But that aside, the idea that the Wall has EVER been an effective deterrent has been entirely dependent on the Night's Watch, and on the nature of the things it is protecting against. Ignoring those aspects of the story is not giving fair consideration to the concept. To recap some of the reasons why it's not such a stretch that the Wall serves a valid purpose (aside from the length of time being what it is):
Regarding Wildlings: 1 - It's not meant to keep out wildlings. 2 - Wildlings don't really care about crossing the Wall anyway. 3 - Wildlings have never ever been organized enough on a whole to get past the Wall and the Watch, except in small numbers (which they do from time to time), even if they DID care. Regarding Snarks and Grumpkins: 1. The Wall is magical. That helps with the snarks and grumpkins. 2. The snarks and grumpkins rely on winter. The Night's Watch knows this. "Winter is Coming" isn't just a cool catch phrase. Preparation matters. 3. The Night's Watch knows other things - or they once did - which I can't expand on without getting spoilery. They also had some help in the past, which I also cannot expand on. 4. The snarks and grumpkins haven't been seen for a long, long time. That is why the Night's Watch isn't ready to fight them now.They've forgotten, and they've dwindled. In the past, they were ready, and they did know how to fight them, and they did a darn good job of it. But it was never easy, and the Wall never did it all by itself. With those things in mind, I think it's not that hard to buy the idea that the Wall and the Night's Watch have been, in the past, an effective barrier against the snarks and grumpkins. Again, the 8000 years part might be a little hard to swallow, but the general concept works. Edit: Your complaint that you have to take for granted that the wall works is really missing the point. What you're expected to believe isn't that the Wall works, it's that the Night's Watch works - or more accurately, that the Night's Watch ONCE worked. And the Wall helps. |
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really trying to not to get too spoilery, but|
Originally Posted by Lothic
I already offered that it doesn't really matter who the "enemy" is now or was 8,000 years ago. The simple logistics of trying to defend a frontier, no matter what you're defending it from, for such a long period of time is simply improbable to say the least. Worried about the Night's Watch falling apart now? Why didn't it fall apart 2, 4 or 6,000 years ago?
 The Romans didn't just man the Hadrian wall - at their height they patrolled and defended a frontier that stretched across Europe and the Middle East. Arguably this was a much more formidable task than whatever distance the Wall is supposed to stretch in this story. Just because the Romans didn't make their walls 700 feet tall or use magic doesn't make them invalid as case study for the Night's Watch, a fictional organization which clearly borrowed quite a lot from how the Roman frontier legions worked. I'm sorry but even with the "standard fantasy" excuses I really can't see the Wall (with the Night's Watch) existing as a status quo deterrent for 8,000 years given the typical political and social fluctuations that humans are prone to. *shrugs* Maybe if Martin had come up with a more believable timeline for his story I wouldn't be having as much trouble with it.  |
-the wall isn't just ice and stone, there is a magical aspect to it as well, which is why it has lasted this long, but with that said, it has decayed over the years. although less so than the Night Watch. Let me give you one hint, I don't think the show really has gone too much in history too much, the books at this point, I believe has given you the overall outline by this point. So the question is, based on that outline, who would've built the wall 8000 years ago?
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as mentioned the Chinese Dynasty and the ancient Egyptians were static for periods at least just as long|
Originally Posted by Lothic
I'm sorry but even "fantasy" worlds like this usually tend to follow -some- kind of logic, or at least offer some kind of explanation for why logic should be disregarded if necessary. If the books explain -why- nothing's changed in thousands of years I might be more willing to accept the scenario in question.
The Han Dynasties of China weren't -that- static. But even if you could successfully demonstrate this point that'd only be at most 1/8 the time the people in this book supposedly managed their sociological miracle. Instead of "dug in" I would probably use the phrase "accepted certain immutable truths about human nature". *shrugs* I suppose I'll just conclude this line of discussion by saying I'd more readily believe that things like dragons and/or magic could actually be real on some planet in some universe than to believe a human (or at least human-like) race of people could remain -that- static for 8,000+ years. It's not going to stop me from watching this show, or maybe even eventually reading these books someday, but it will leave me with a certain bitter pill I'll just have to stomach to get past. *shrugs* P.S. Ironically enough tonight's episode of South Park had Mr. Garrison trying to teach the class about "World History" and he starts off by saying, "What we start to see in world history is a pattern much like the Greeks and Romans. Remember that there were seven families fighting for the control of the kingdoms of Westeros..." and as he goes on it's clear that all he's talking about is Game of Thrones as if it was -actual- world history. |
Another factor which while it has been mentioned, but not made clear to the extent it is in the books, is this. Seasons operate differently in the world of Game of Thrones. Due to differences in orbital mechanics, seasons last for years or decades. The good side is, you have growing seasons that last for years or decades, the bad side you have winters lasting just as long, which would be tough on a medival agrarian society like Westeros. just imagine the amount of snow that builds up as well, and the flooding once things start melting. The majority of Westeros is impacted by this, its less clear what sort of effect the long winters have on the southern lands. But that would be a huge factor in the stasis your seeing here.
And what people are expecting here, is getting the blizzard of '78 type winter, except their blizzard of '78 lasting 10-20 years
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I have to agree, she's fantastic.
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Originally Posted by MentalMaden
That kid can flat out act. You heard it here first. She has to be a front runner for supporting actress this year. Maisie and Dinklage will get Emmy's this year.
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Thought for the day:
"Hope is the first step on the road to disappointment."
=][=
No comments on last week's episode? For shame!
I liked it.
Agua Man lvl 48 Water/Electric Blaster
"To die hating NCSoft for shutting down City of Heroes, that was Freedom."
Quote:
I havn't seen it. |
Originally Posted by Mental_Giant
No comments on last week's episode? For shame!
I liked it. |
Thought for the day:
"Hope is the first step on the road to disappointment."
=][=
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I started writing up some thoughts about three different times but got pulled away for work stuff everytime. A lot of what I had to say was more for the spoiler thread though.|
Originally Posted by Mental_Giant
No comments on last week's episode? For shame!
I liked it. |
I think we're at the episode that was more "TV show direction" than "book direction". Which is fine. (Not a complaint) By far the least off the page episode of either season. I will finally post in the Book thread my thoughts on the changes, etc. They are all pretty positive though, so yeah, I enjoyed it.
@Mental Maden @Maden Mental
"....you are now tackle free for life."-ShoNuff
You know nothing, Jon Snow.
Great episode, but I think it had some major departures from the book, especially in Quarth... but I need to read the Westeros.org analysis to see if I'm right.
Agua Man lvl 48 Water/Electric Blaster
"To die hating NCSoft for shutting down City of Heroes, that was Freedom."
Quote:
No, there were tons of departures these past two episodes. The departures do shorten the journey to get the characters where they need to be to wrap up the season, but it's the downside of having only ten episodes.|
Originally Posted by Mental_Giant
You know nothing, Jon Snow.
Great episode, but I think it had some major departures from the book, especially in Quarth... but I need to read the Westeros.org analysis to see if I'm right. |
But they're also giving screen time to characters who would otherwise be receiving fairly little -- Tywin Lannister (loving his scenes with Arya), Jaime Lannister, and even Queen Cersei. Also, in the book version, Dany really doesn't do a whole lot in the second book. The whole "kidnapped dragons" subplot seems a bit of a cliche, but it is breaking her character down to rock bottom so she can build herself back up.
Arc# 92382 -- "The S.P.I.D.E.R. and the Tyrant" -- Ninjas! Robots! Praetorians! It's totally epic! Play it now!
Arc # 316340 -- "Husk" -- Azuria loses something, a young woman harbors a dark secret, and the fate of the world is in your hands.
Some great acting in this episode. I won't discuss changes from the book here as they could be spoilery. But I will say that so far there aren't many that I really disagree with.
@Mental Maden @Maden Mental
"....you are now tackle free for life."-ShoNuff
Still liking the show for the most part, probably because they haven't mentioned the Wall lately as much as anything else.
A few random comments:
1) The millisecond John Snow found an "attractive Wildling" you pretty much knew she was going to be his eventual first sexual experience (tell me that's -not- going to happen) and that somehow she was going to lead him "Dances with Wolves" style toward interacting with the Wildlings. I'm not going to assume Snow will totally "go native" and join the Wildlings at this point, but his interaction with them will at least help him learn more about these people and understand who he's dealing with when the time comes.
2) The instant "The Mother of Dragons" entered Qarth you pretty much knew that someone there would take her dragons and that there'd be some intrigue with that. It's hardly surprising that the guy who helped her into the city would be the one to take advantage of her vulnerable situation. I'm not going to pretend I know exactly how her visit to Qarth will be resolved, but you pretty much had to know that the city was not going to be the safe haven it first appeared to be.
3) The moment they put that messenger/squire guy (sorry, forgot his name) in with Jamie Lannister we knew that he was going to be a dead man. Once you've established a character nasty enough to push boys from tall towers you pretty much expect the only way Jamie's going to handle anyone else he considers "inferior" to himself is as sacrificial pawns. Not saying I don't like the way he operates (for instance I loved his disrespectful quips at Brienne and how he overtly told his new "squire buddy" that he was going to die). Just saying he's become a bit predictable in his dickishness.
4) I figure there's about a 99.5% chance that those two burned bodies Theon displayed back in Winterfell are NOT the two Stark boys. They were probably those two farmboys we saw running around that Theon used as a diversion to let the real Stark boys escape. Yes Theon's having to be all brutal and nasty to prove his worth to his father but I suspect he still cares enough about the Starks to not want to want to kill them outright. He's clearly not totally evil because he wants to be - he's just stuck in the position of having to be nasty in order to gain back his family's respect.
5) It'll be interesting to see what Tywin Lannister does with Arya Stark. He pretty much knows she's not a commoner and at this point he might even already know exactly who she is. But sooner or later he'll have unquestionable proof as to her identity. I suppose he'll try to use her to get Jamie back but of course she still has one more "kill any man you want" card from that assassin guy so maybe she'll kill Tywin via that guy.
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Quote:
1) There is another way to look at this. Won't spoil it for you though.|
Originally Posted by Lothic
Still liking the show for the most part, probably because they haven't mentioned the Wall lately as much as anything else.
A few random comments: 1) The millisecond John Snow found an "attractive Wildling" you pretty much knew she was going to be his eventual first sexual experience (tell me that's -not- going to happen) and that somehow she was going to lead him "Dances with Wolves" style toward interacting with the Wildlings. I'm not going to assume Snow will totally "go native" and join the Wildlings at this point, but his interaction with them will at least help him learn more about these people and understand who he's dealing with when the time comes. 2) The instant "The Mother of Dragons" entered Qarth you pretty much knew that someone there would take her dragons and that there'd be some intrigue with that. It's hardly surprising that the guy who helped her into the city would be the one to take advantage of her vulnerable situation. I'm not going to pretend I know exactly how her visit to Qarth will be resolved, but you pretty much had to know that the city was not going to be the safe haven it first appeared to be. 3) The moment they put that messenger/squire guy (sorry, forgot his name) in with Jamie Lannister we knew that he was going to be a dead man. Once you've established a character nasty enough to push boys from tall towers you pretty much expect the only way Jamie's going to handle anyone else he considers "inferior" to himself is as sacrificial pawns. Not saying I don't like the way he operates (for instance I loved his disrespectful quips at Brienne and how he overtly told his new "squire buddy" that he was going to die). Just saying he's become a bit predictable in his dickishness. 4) I figure there's about a 99.5% chance that those two burned bodies Theon displayed back in Winterfell are NOT the two Stark boys. They were probably those two farmboys we saw running around that Theon used as a diversion to let the real Stark boys escape. Yes Theon's having to be all brutal and nasty to prove his worth to his father but I suspect he still cares enough about the Starks to not want to want to kill them outright. He's clearly not totally evil because he wants to be - he's just stuck in the position of having to be nasty in order to gain back his family's respect. 5) It'll be interesting to see what Tywin Lannister does with Arya Stark. He pretty much knows she's not a commoner and at this point he might even already know exactly who she is. But sooner or later he'll have unquestionable proof as to her identity. I suppose he'll try to use her to get Jamie back but of course she still has one more "kill any man you want" card from that assassin guy so maybe she'll kill Tywin via that guy. |
2) This entire storyline is a radical departure from the books. And a welcome one in my opinion. Not so much backstabbing and stealing in the books. More just proposals and prophesizing.... and waiting around. Honestly it's a welcome addition to her story. It's also nice as its a good source of surprises for us readers.
3) This was a good window into the way Jaime thinks and acts. Some differences from the books but getting us to the same place. And yes his interaction with Brienne was spot on Jaime.
4) Too spoilery to say one thing or the other on this plot point.
5) Another non book plotline and a welcome one solely for the quality of the scenes between the two actors. Without getting too spoilery on the outcome of Harrenhal, I won't say much more than that. It will definitely play out a bit differently, but end in the same place I believe.
Some pretty good observations, Lothic. If you have specific questions you want answered send me a PM.
MM
@Mental Maden @Maden Mental
"....you are now tackle free for life."-ShoNuff
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Thanks but I'll just watch how it plays out in the show. From what you imply there seems to be enough book-divergent parts that it'll be something everyone ought to watch regardless of prior book knowledge. And if there's stuff I guessed wrong we'll all know soon enough. |
Originally Posted by MentalMaden
Some pretty good observations, Lothic. If you have specific questions you want answered send me a PM.
MM |
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Heh, yeah the Qarth stuff has been fun for this "reader". It's always nice to be surprised, even when you love the source material. I figured you'd want to just watch and be surprised, etc, but figured I'd offer.
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Originally Posted by Lothic
Thanks but I'll just watch how it plays out in the show. From what you imply there seems to be enough book-divergent parts that it'll be something everyone ought to watch regardless of prior book knowledge. And if there's stuff I guessed wrong we'll all know soon enough.
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@Mental Maden @Maden Mental
"....you are now tackle free for life."-ShoNuff
As awesome as Peter Dinklage has been this season and really throughout the whole series, Charles Dance is rapidly becoming my favorite actor to watch in the series. ...Hopefully he's spared.
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Dance has been a great addition to the cast, without doubt. And after reading the books, I really can't image anyone else as Tywin Lannister. He's completely nailed that part.|
Originally Posted by ChaosAngelGeno
As awesome as Peter Dinklage has been this season and really throughout the whole series, Charles Dance is rapidly becoming my favorite actor to watch in the series. ...Hopefully he's spared.
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Likewise for Nikolaj Coster-Waldau, who has managed to sum up all of Jaime's personality quirks in the few scenes he's had this season. Just great work from him in last night's episode.
Arc# 92382 -- "The S.P.I.D.E.R. and the Tyrant" -- Ninjas! Robots! Praetorians! It's totally epic! Play it now!
Arc # 316340 -- "Husk" -- Azuria loses something, a young woman harbors a dark secret, and the fate of the world is in your hands.
Quote:
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Originally Posted by ChaosAngelGeno
As awesome as Peter Dinklage has been this season and really throughout the whole series, Charles Dance is rapidly becoming my favorite actor to watch in the series. ...Hopefully he's spared.
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Originally Posted by Defenestrator
Dance has been a great addition to the cast, without doubt. And after reading the books, I really can't image anyone else as Tywin Lannister. He's completely nailed that part.
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So....pretty much new to the series and must say...WOW! This is truly am excellent show and am glad I was able to watch season one all the way up to the current episode....
Khal Drogo....pretty much Conan on the next level....shame what happened to him.
You only fail if you give up. - Dana Scully
Time Jesum Transeuntum Et Non Riverentum - Nick Cave
We're not just destroyers, at the same time we can be saviors. - Allen Walker
Ok, the "all books" thread seems to be going strong, but I'm dealing with the story from a strictly cinematic perspective and don't want literary spoilers, so am chiming in on this thread. Blackwater battle was suitably epic and I was pleased and unsurprised to see my man, Tyrion step up as a true leader. Joffrey's cowardice and betrayal (to me, it was clearly his man, though perhaps directed by Sersi, who cleaved him at the battle's end) was also no surprise. Tyrion's steward desrves some serious props and I hope he ends up being a long term character. I look forward to Joffrey's demise more than I have craved a cinematic villain's comeupance in quite some time (thinking Delores Umbrage). Great season. It will be a long wait for season 3.
And, yes, Maisie Williams is doing great. As are Sofie Turner and Jack Gleeson.
After rewatching the 4th episode last night, I think Gleeson should also be in the running for Best Supporting. He is absolutely CHILLING in that scene with the two...ahem...ladies.
Arc# 92382 -- "The S.P.I.D.E.R. and the Tyrant" -- Ninjas! Robots! Praetorians! It's totally epic! Play it now!
Arc # 316340 -- "Husk" -- Azuria loses something, a young woman harbors a dark secret, and the fate of the world is in your hands.