Game of Thrones Season 2!

That's an amazing premise for a novel of an Alternate History WWII!

Martin/Turtledove mash up! Somebody call their literary agents!

Trust me when I say I have no problem accepting fictional story concepts in fantasy/sci-fi. Been watching and enjoying things like Star Trek for well over 30 years now. But I do tend to have problems with certain story elements when even the internal logic doesn't adequately support them.

Even though I haven't read these GoT books in particular I've been familiar enough with stories like these for decades to have a "ballpark idea" of what's in store. Some Ancient Evil(™) has finally awoken after hundreds/thousands of years and it's somehow going to be involved with the dragons and the Coming Storm(™) of war that'll threaten all the human kingdoms in the south. All the warring factions currently fighting each other for the Iron Throne will have to unite against the Common Enemy(™) for the sake of saving the world. Yata-yata-yata...

Again I don't really mean to burst anyone's bubbles over this point. Like I said before it just happens to be a personal nitpick of mine. My main problem with the Wall is the general naivety that all the Kingdoms apparently had to suffer from to think that the Wall by itself was going to be enough to permanently protect them from ANYTHING north of the wall forever. Sure the characters in the story have had 8,000 years to get used to the idea that the status quo would never change and the Wall would save them forever. But any reader from a mile away could smell the obvious hubris of dumb people having faith in a static defense that you know by the end of the story is going to be breached/bypassed in some form or fashion.

I guess I'm just finding the Wall to be a plot device that's a little too obvious and heavy-handed to be accepted at face value. *shrugs*

More of a plot device than dragons? I think they are the most heavy handed of all plot devices, and that's not mentioning our most recent discovery of Melisandre's talents.

That said, Lothic, there is a level of hubris attached to the wall and what could be a false sense of security. At one time there were 19 castles along the Walls 300 miles fully functioning and staffed with Nights Watch i.e. not passive protection. Over the years with magic and the Others seemingly things of fairy tales only 3 castles are being used and the Night Watch's numbers have dwindled. And this could all be important to things happening later in the series. Many even hypothosize that forces may try to bring the wall down and that could be a major plot point in the future, but that's speculation and fodder for the Book spoiler thread. So in a way you may be correct......or not.

Eh, at least the person in my position (enjoying the story for the first time via the TV show) doesn't exactly know what role the dragons will play yet. Are they merely "nuclear weapons" for any army to threaten others with or are they here to "take over" the world and kill all the pesky humans no matter what faction? The only thing the Wall is going to do is eventually fail to serve its purpose as a "speedbump" holding back the Nameless Evil(™) from threatening the world.

It's not really faith in the Wall (the Night's Watch certainly knows how bad things are), but a lack of belief in ANY real threat north of the Wall. It's been thousands of years, and no one believes in the fairy tales any more, and the wildings aren't an organized threat. As far as the realm is concerned, the Wall is just a penal colony for criminals and disgraced noblemen.

I'm also happy to say that your prediction has not exactly come to fruition yet as of book 5. Martin knows the tropes as well as his readers, and he often zigs when you think he will zag.

If whatever Evil(™) in the north is going to threaten the kingdoms of the south the Wall is either going to be breached/bypassed by the end of the story or there's going to have to at least be a credible possibility that that could happen.

This is Chekhov's Gun where this time the Wall itself is the "gun" - if the Wall doesn't fail in some form or fashion then there wasn't much reason for the Wall to be there in the first place.

Breaking out Checkov's Gun again, hey? You're getting into spoilerish territory, Lothic. I can't really respond to that for the sake of the non readers. You are acting like this "issue" isn't addressed in the books, and it is. In subtle and not so subtle ways. Some of us readers are trying to say things without spoiling things for others. Maybe just trust us a little. The usefullness/non-usefullness of the wall is an important subject.

I don't think it's really a "spoiler" to say that the Wall is going to play some kind of key role in this story. I got the gist of that after the first 5 minutes of the first episode.

All I'm suggesting is that they're clearly building up this "hype" that the Wall is the only thing "protecting" the happy-go-lucky peoples of the south from all the ickiness of the north. If that doesn't play itself out in the form of seeing what happens when that protection fails then one has to question what that apparently major plot thread was for in the first place.

You've dug in and aren't really listening to what many of us are saying. It's not just the Wall protecting the realm. It's the Wall and the Night's Watch. That's very important as the realm has almost forgotten them both and it is already playing a significant role in the story. That's why the Night's Watch are on the huge ranging this season. And whether or not this protection actually works is significant in the future of the story. Some of it already (up to Book 5) and some coming up apparently in 6 and 7. You are kind of creating a problem that some of us are saying isn't there without spoiling some of the story for others. That's what we're trying to say.

Edit- And yes saying anything more, would spoil the show for people. Some future events are directly related to this topic that mentioning would ruin significant plot points and surprises.

I'm open to the idea that the original purpose of the Wall itself has become so "outdated" at this point that the Night's Watch is going to have to move out significantly far past it in order to "confront" whatever the current threat is.

But even if it comes down to some kind of "twist" like that then my more generic observation that the wall has "failed" during this story is correct.

Sigh.....It has nothing to do with the Wall being outdated. Something is happening right now that has never happened. And that's the wildlings gathering enmasse. That's why they are ranging, because they want to know why they are organizing. The full reason is a bit spoilery if you'd like to ask me, PM me.

The TV show has already told us the Wildlings are gathering enmasse and that it's never happened before. That's not a spoiler. Why they are doing it has not been revealed yet, but again I say it's probably very safe to say that the fate of the Wall, the Wildlings and the Night's Watch are all fairly well entwined.

Again I'll point out that you don't really need to know ANYTHING about the nature of what's north of the wall to understand that the Wall stands to keep "bad things out" and that it would be a "bad thing" if the wall somehow failed to do that. Tell me how interesting would this story be if we find out the Wall totally did its job as expected and everyone lived happily ever after?

Why they are gathering is spoilery.

It could be a big ole red herring drawing attention away from some place that forces are needed. While that's not necessarily true, Martin has been known to make feints. Part of the story of the Wall is whether or not it is important. You can see that on the show already. The amount of attention given to the wall may or may not be vitally important to who wins the Iron Throne.

The Wall was literally the very first thing we saw in the very first episode of "The Game of Thrones". I don't think it could have been made any more obvious that the Wall will play a critical role in the fate of the Iron Throne.

I just happen to believe the Wall's ultimate fate will center around its tragic failure. Whether it "fails" to keep something out or it "fails" to distract or lure various factions towards it or away from it, will be its primary purpose in the story.

Nobody is arguing that though.

With failure being described this broadly, there is no way the Wall could succeed.

The only thing I've been saying here all along is that this story has the very obvious elephant-in-the-room that the "downfall" of the status quo of the "Era of the Wall" will be part of its climactic conclusion and people have somehow been trying to suggest that there's something "deeper" to it than that. Really?

I simply think it's a tad predictable that we're having to wait how many books/shows before the Wall fails and seals the fate of the Iron Throne. It's sort of like watching the Cameron's Titanic knowing the ship is going to sink and just waiting to see how the people are going to react to its sinking.

I'm just saying a story about an 8,000 year old Wall doing the same thing it's been doing for 8,000 years would be fairly boring wouldn't it?

I can't respond to this without spoilers, unfortunately.

I'm not really asking for any either. I simply refuse to assume that this story is going to end -radically- different from my general musings.

Then you don't know Martin's writing. (BTW, that's a semi joke, so don't take it as any kind of challenge. It just means that Martin likes to turn a story upside down from time to time)

Then perhaps maybe it's better I'm getting to enjoy his story through the "filter" of the TV show that likely requires a bit more sanity for its HBO audience. Perhaps I'll get around to reading the books as soon as he thinks he's done writing them and can't change anything else.

You assume I'm saying they are somehow unsatisfactory by that statement. Quite the contrary, I admire an author that doesn't stick to tired old cliches or obvious plots. Don't get my statement wrong, Martin does things very deliberately and for a purpose, they just aren't necessarily what you or I may come up with. The Wall will obviously play a major role in the story, whether or not it's as cut and dry as you think is highly debatable (though possible). He just always seems to come up with a refreshing take on things. If you take my post to mean there is something wrong with the books or his perspective, you took it completely opposite of what I meant.

No, I was just poking a bit of fun. Obviously the books must be good enough to have warranted a HBO show to begin with.

Hopefully whatever happens (or doesn't happen) to the Wall will make sense once he finishes off the series. Sometimes a cigar at the beginning of a story should remain a cigar even if it would be cute to randomly turn it into a golf cart along the way.