genuine need or company spite? *spoilers*
By
Aggelakis,
Posted on: 2012-03-29 18:39 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
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Recluse definitely does, they hint at a possible redemption in a couple of places as far as I can tell. |
Originally Posted by Zombie Man
And, yes, this also means Recluse and Lady Grey have narrative bulls-eyes on their backs.
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For my money, Lady Grey sits more in the sort of position of somewhat mysterious other character, kind of like Dream Doctor, Mender Silos and Nemesis, than the supposed big two of Statesman and Lord Recluse. She's talked about in that sort of position, but I don't know if she is viewed as important in terms of overshadowing our characters, if that makes sense.
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Originally Posted by Tyger
One. Singular.
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Originally Posted by Aneko
One did die, followed by another. If it had said "only one will die", then you would have a case.
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Originally Posted by Tyger
One. Singular.
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Originally Posted by Kitsune Knight
Someone did die. Someone else died also. Do not confuse "one" with "one and only one", they are very different concepts.
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'I don't like the look of it at all,' said the King: 'however, it may kiss my hand if it likes.'
'I'd rather not,' the Cat remarked.
'Don't be impertinent,' said the King, 'and don't look at me like that!' He got behind Alice as he spoke.
'A cat may look at a king,' said Alice.
The "why" of the whole affair really isn't relevant. One need only look at the events together to see how distasteful the whole situation is. The Statesman and Sister Psyche - Jack Emmert's creations - were unceremoniously and needlessly murdered, and Positron - Matt Miller's Mary Sue - was promoted to premier hero in their place. Whether it was intended to be petty or not is only secondary to the very real fact that it IS petty, intentionally or otherwise.
I found the whole concept of marketing a story by asking "why will die" to be distasteful just on its face, but I was willing to roll with it if it felt like they'd craft a story which earned the kill and built on it. What I got, instead, was a "kill 'em all" frag-fest of horrible storytelling and backstage politics. This is just about the most efficient way to make me not give a crap about the story, I have to say. Make it bad AND motivated by personal vendettas.
After the complete disaster that the SSAs brought to the game, the magic is gone for me. A lot like my reaction to the Mass Effect 3 ending, my "affection" for the City of Heroes lore is gone. As a result, my tolerance for storytelling flubs is at an all-time low. Stuff I might have looked past once upon a time not just irritates me, because I'm no longer just happy to ignore it. That's what happens when a company squanders its good will irresponsibly.
They promised us a great story. They asked us to pay for it. And they delivered... That.
Fail.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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In what magical, bizzaro universe did 'one' suddenly become 'two'? Sorry, but your 'counter' makes less than no sense. One is one is one is one. It is not two.
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Originally Posted by Kitsune Knight
Someone did die. Someone else died also. Do not confuse "one" with "one and only one", they are very different concepts.
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Originally Posted by Zwillinger
GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.
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Originally Posted by Captain_Photon
NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.
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Just to pick a nit, Penny and the Clockwork King were/are more powerful. Which, in turn, demotes her to 'one of the most powerful' which isn't the same as 'the most'. Which, in turn, has already moved her barrier.|
Originally Posted by Zombie Man
Psyche, story-wise, was the most powerful psychic on the earth.
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States going I could deal with, even if the scene could maybe have had a bitter of extra 'epic'.
Pysche? Hoo boy, that was a big ol' case of Ol' Idiot Ball washed down with Failcake and Speshul Juice. Seriously.
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Originally Posted by Zwillinger
GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.
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Originally Posted by Captain_Photon
NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.
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Did someone die? Yes, and then someone else did. The second does not invalidate the first.
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Originally Posted by Techbot Alpha
In what magical, bizzaro universe did 'one' suddenly become 'two'? Sorry, but your 'counter' makes less than no sense. One is one is one is one. It is not two.
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'I don't like the look of it at all,' said the King: 'however, it may kiss my hand if it likes.'
'I'd rather not,' the Cat remarked.
'Don't be impertinent,' said the King, 'and don't look at me like that!' He got behind Alice as he spoke.
'A cat may look at a king,' said Alice.
It's fun to cause pain to heroes, can't do it physically...mess and destroy their mental state MUAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
Glad Statesman is gone.
Glad Sister Psyche is gone too, I mean...that awful outfit...lol
Wish the Freedom Phalanx and Vindicators had powersets reasignments and new cool unique costumes.
I dont buy that excuse about NPC main heroes not getting new costumes because players will want them. NPC mobs got unique costumes all the time, even with the player rig and we still dont get most of those costumes (CoT pope hats, high collar,short cape,jewel belt...Imperial defense coolest pieces, etc)
Also, need Rose Star and Spark Blade already in game, and more W.I.S.D.O.M. spotlight!
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Honestly, I would have loved that part of the arc much better if, after losing his powers, Statesman said "There's... one thing you should know."|
Originally Posted by CactusBrawler
You know I actually think the same, especially given how Statesman died.
Did he heroicly try to fight on after his powers had been stripped from him, and die in the act? No he gave up. That's what makes me think it was an act of spite. |
Darrin Wade sneers, "What's that, old man?"
Statesman says "Before... before I was Statesman... I was a soldier." and pulls out a World War I era pistol, and takes a shot at Wade.
Sure, Wade would take the shot and shrug it off, maybe get some tiny little scar on his face from it and then just summon some Rularuu beastie to smack the life out of Marcus Cole... AND then you run the cutscene.
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"Hey, remember that time when one of Bruce Wayne's parents was killed?"|
Originally Posted by Aneko
Did someone die? Yes, and then someone else did. The second does not invalidate the first.
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"Wait, didn't they both die?"
"Yes. One of them died. And then the other. That's what I said."
While technically true, if that was really what they meant all along, then they are just idiots. I'd rather they changed their minds somewhere between that article, and the release of the SSAs, than think they were being this deliberately obtuse.
Thought for the day:
"Hope is the first step on the road to disappointment."
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It was presented as a mystery; obfuscation is to be expected. You are free to believe it wasn't done well, but I see no need for personal insults.
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Originally Posted by Slaunyeh
While technically true, if that was really what they meant all along, then they are just idiots. I'd rather they changed their minds somewhere between that article, and the release of the SSAs, than think they were being this deliberately obtuse.
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'I don't like the look of it at all,' said the King: 'however, it may kiss my hand if it likes.'
'I'd rather not,' the Cat remarked.
'Don't be impertinent,' said the King, 'and don't look at me like that!' He got behind Alice as he spoke.
'A cat may look at a king,' said Alice.
I don't think she's gone. I think she's riding along somewhere. Might have even faked us out...
@bpphantom
The Defenders of Paragon
KGB Special Section 8
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Then it was presented as the kind of mystery I thought was amazingly clever when I was six. If the reaction they were going for was a collective groan followed by "oh god". Then kudos. Success.|
Originally Posted by Aneko
It was presented as a mystery; obfuscation is to be expected. You are free to believe it wasn't done well, but I see no need for personal insults.
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Personally, I don't think they had planned to off two characters at the time of that article, but you're welcome to assume otherwise.
Thought for the day:
"Hope is the first step on the road to disappointment."
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I like to think so.|
Originally Posted by bpphantom
I don't think she's gone. I think she's riding along somewhere. Might have even faked us out...
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I think there's been some out-of-game comments that suggest otherwise, but the door is still wide open.
Thought for the day:
"Hope is the first step on the road to disappointment."
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Hey hey HEY! That's my job!
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Originally Posted by Kitsune Knight
Why do you keep insisting on implying things about unreleased content? You're like that annoying person that continually drops "hints" about a movie/tv show/book if they know someone hasn't watched/read it yet. Everyone's probably ran into a person that does that...
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Change means progress. If City of Heroes wants to grow then things need to change.
People need to die.
Change equals Death equals Growth equals Something New, etc. etc. etc.
This game wouldn't go anywhere if Statesman never died, leaving a power vacuum. There would be no point tous as heroes in City of Heroes, and I'd like to believe that the writers and the Devs recognize that and that is why this SSA involved the death of not one, but two major figures.
I would like to see Statesman and Sister Psyche's ghosts chilling with War Witch in Croatoa.
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How can the statement "someone will die" be false? The only way is if no one dies. People often jump to the assumption that 'someone' means 'only one', but that's, grammatically, not what's actually being said in the slightest. The false assumption is especially grating if you're familiar with formal logic, where the difference between "one" and "one and only one" is incredibly important.
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Originally Posted by Techbot Alpha
In what magical, bizzaro universe did 'one' suddenly become 'two'? Sorry, but your 'counter' makes less than no sense. One is one is one is one. It is not two.
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Originally Posted by ShadowNate
;_; ?!?! What the heck is wrong with you, my god, I have never been so confused in my life!
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Originally Posted by Kitsune Knight
How can the statement "someone will die" be false? The only way is if no one dies. People often jump to the assumption that 'someone' means 'only one', but that's, grammatically, not what's actually being said in the slightest. The false assumption is especially grating if you're familiar with formal logic, where the difference between "one" and "one and only one" is incredibly important.
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They said one of the surviing eight will die.
Not one and then another one, not two, not one and maybe some more. Just one of the surving eight.
Brawling Cactus from a distant planet.
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Exact ******* zactly!|
Originally Posted by Kierthos
Honestly, I would have loved that part of the arc much better if, after losing his powers, Statesman said "There's... one thing you should know."
Darrin Wade sneers, "What's that, old man?" Statesman says "Before... before I was Statesman... I was a soldier." and pulls out a World War I era pistol, and takes a shot at Wade. Sure, Wade would take the shot and shrug it off, maybe get some tiny little scar on his face from it and then just summon some Rularuu beastie to smack the life out of Marcus Cole... AND then you run the cutscene. |
Captain America, facing off against Thanos with the infinty guantles, stood his ground and faced off against a being that could blink him out of existance.
Yeah he was killed quickly and with no effort by Thanos, but he at least bleeding tried.
This just smacks of 'Well Jack gave up on the company so his character would as well!" another example of Matt 'Positron' Miller throwing the toys out of the pram.
Brawling Cactus from a distant planet.
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Ah, but one of the Surviving Eight DID die.|
Originally Posted by CactusBrawler
They said one of the surviing eight will die.
Not one and then another one, not two, not one and maybe some more. Just one of the surving eight. |
And then another one of them died, too.
[/end silly semantic argument that means nothing]
The argument being presented is the same as the silly "there are two coins, total value 30 pence, one of them is not a twenty pence piece, what are the two coins?" riddle.
Strictly speaking, saying "one of the surviving eight will die" does not preclude more than one of them dying, yes. It's a form of bait and switch. It's also a valid marketing tool. It's also, in my opinion, sloppy and stupid.
Also, just as an aside, my wife finally finished running SSA 1 last night, and she is utterly convinced that Manticore wasn't the real Manticore, because his actions and behaviour were just too damned stupid.
The wisdom of Shadowe: Ghostraptor: The Shadowe is wise ...; FFM: Shadowe is no longer wise.
; Techbot_Alpha: Also, what Shadowe said. It seems he is still somewhat wise 
; Bull Throttle: Shadowe was unwise in this instance...; Rock_Powerfist: in this instance Shadowe is wise.; Techbot_Alpha: Shadowe is very wise *nods*; Zortel: *Quotable line about Shadowe being wise goes here.*
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You said "just one"; they did not. I don't see why this is so difficult for some people.|
Originally Posted by CactusBrawler
They said one of the surviing eight will die.
Not one and then another one, not two, not one and maybe some more. Just one of the surving eight. |
Let's say you ask me if I've ever owned a car. Let's also say that I've owned more than one. If I answer your question with a simple "yes", am I lying? Of course not. The number is irrelevant, because you didn't ask about that.
'I don't like the look of it at all,' said the King: 'however, it may kiss my hand if it likes.'
'I'd rather not,' the Cat remarked.
'Don't be impertinent,' said the King, 'and don't look at me like that!' He got behind Alice as he spoke.
'A cat may look at a king,' said Alice.
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Of course, they're still going to be second class citizens. My big time hero still seems to need to find teammates to take down the big bad villain. Needs help in taking down generic soldiers, and gets beat up by ordinary citizens.
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Originally Posted by Zombie Man
Well, since we're having this thread again, let me again make this point:
It's the players' fault Statesman and Sister Psyche were 'killed off.' Players have been grousing about being second class characters in the stories. FedEx missions, glorified lackeys, lacking initiative, etc.... And so, we've seen a concerted effort by the content writers to put players front and center and be more proactive and more consequential. But how can we do that when we're in the shadows of near-immortals who are of a magnitude more powerful than our characters? Oh, sure, we mop up the EB versions of Statesman, Psyche, and Lord Recluse. But the story makes them the most powerful beings on the planet. Statesman can also survive a nuke. A real nuke. Not the declawed version of a Warburg missile. Psyche, story-wise, was the most powerful psychic on the earth. And they're all several generations old, and not likely to die anytime soon of old age. The only way our character can shine story-wise when there is a more powerful generation that just won't die or age out... is to murder them. The content writers have already diminished the Freedom Phalanx in many ways by setting them up for failure. Positron is no new Mary Sue when villains steal the Fire of Prometheus from him; he was inconsequential in saving Psyche or Statesman; and he gets his entire team snared in Diabolique's trap, requiring us to save them all. And, yes, this also means Recluse and Lady Grey have narrative bulls-eyes on their backs. |
BrandX Future Staff Fighter
The BrandX Collection
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No.|
Originally Posted by Kitsune Knight
I approve of killing both of them off. States needed to die, and the Freedom Phalanx needed to be hit harder than just States leaving. SP dying, along with Manticore being left seriously messed up (repeatedly having the crap beaten out of him if you're a villain) will knock the Freedom Phalanx down the several notches that they needed to be.
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Allow me to repeat.
No.
Statesman did NOT need to die and the Freedom Phalanx did NOT need to be taken down several notches.
In fact, I'd really like you to explain just why either of those events "needed" to happen.
The players who were offended that any NPC's should deign to be greater beings than the PC's are a somewhat vocal minority, not a majority. Being offended that some NPC is ostensibly the greatest hero that ever lived is a level of both silliness and self-absorption that I've never been able to properly fathom. Who really gives a rip?
The world of Paragon City was only diminished by these events. It was not built up or strengthened or made greater. The PC is now the headliner who saved the world. Huzzah for him/her/it. Is he going to Disneyland now? What's next?
Oh, right. The same stuff he/she/it has been doing before he/she/it allowed the world's greatest heroes to be destroyed and the premier league of heroes to descend into dissolution and disarray.
Except that now he/she/it can proudly say that no game controlled character is stronger/more capable/better looking/more fabulous than the PC.
/golfclap
Well done, PC. Well done.
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I've pretty much assumed that she's mind riding someone ever since I first saw the cutscene. Most likely she's riding Manticore and it was she, not he, who actually fired that arrow.
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Originally Posted by bpphantom
I don't think she's gone. I think she's riding along somewhere. Might have even faked us out...
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_________
@Inquisitor
For the longest time, Statesman to me was just "that America dude on the cover" with Sister Psyche being "the lady on the cover" because they never had any real impact to my heroes. At least Lord Recluse and his patrons were mentioned nearly everywhere in the villain arcs, building them up for the time when you meet/greet/beat them.
In short, I believe it was a necessary STEP to kill Statesman, but only if they succeed in having the replacement connect more.