Concerned about Scrappers.
By
Acemace,
Posted on: 2012-03-21 05:04 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
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It was. It came at the same time as an increase in their base self-buff values for DR. (I don't recall if Defense was also affected.) The increase in DR received a lot of opposition, and both it and the cap reduction were dropped together.|
Originally Posted by Zyphoid
For some reason I had thought that did happen with the fury changes. Was it proposed and changed?
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At least that's what I recall.
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I don't. Even with the i22 changes many still see the stalker as damaged goods. At least they do something well and its no longer a clear cut scrapper wins.
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Originally Posted by ClawsandEffect
With the recent stalker changes I started looking at the niche roles the 4 melee archetypes are supposed to fill.
It seems to me that after stalkers got their (admittedly much needed) buff, scrappers are losing their niche. I read a report of a Street Justice/Ninjitsu stalker soloing a Rikti Pylon in 3:52 with no temps, no inspirations, and no Incarnate powers. I've never heard of a scrapper doing it that fast. So, now we have brutes surpassing scrappers in both survivability and high end damage output, especially with the sets that have damage auras and lots of AoE. And with the stalker changes, we have stalkers surpassing scrappers in single target damage, while the survivability gap has been significantly closed. Not only that, but stalkers have the same inherent ability as scrappers and do it better (base crit chance of 10% as opposed to 5, increase to crit chance on teams, and the ability to autocrit when hidden) Now, I'm not calling for a nerf to stalkers. Far from it, because I'm having a blast with my Electric/Energy stalker. I'm just concerned that the original "solo specialist" is being outshined by both of the two other ATs that do much the same thing. I'm not so sure that the higher base damage is enough to keep the playing field level, since brutes and now stalkers are both capable of outdamaging them with their lower base damage. Maybe it's just a perception thing, but I feel that scrappers are getting a bit of a shaft here. Anyone else feel similarly? |
H: Blaster 50, Defender 50, Tank 50, Scrapper 50, Controller 50, PB 50, WS 50
V: Brute 50, Corruptor 50, MM 50, Dominator 50, Stalker 50, AW 50, AS 50
Top 4: Controller, Brute, Scrapper, Corruptor
Bottom 4: (Peacebringer) way below everything else, Mastermind, Dominator, Blaster
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Is it just me, or is everyone forgetting two things? After four pages of bickering I started skimming through stuff, but I don't believe it has been mentioned.
First, Scrapper's Strike has a 2%/3% global critical hit increase on minions, and 4%/6% global increase for all LT enemies and above. This is a buff: just slot the enhancement ANYWHERE and you've got an increased critical hit rate. As for the low numbers regarding minions, the last time I checked minions aren't exactly so durable as to warrant a damage increase on them.
Second, Scrappers have a 1.125 damage scale on their melee attacks (and ranged because for some reason their ranged attacks go off of melee modifiers). Compare this to the following (source)
Scrappers: 1.125
Stalker: 1.000
Spiders: 1.000
Khelds: 0.850
Tankers: 0.800
Brutes: 0.750
Meaning that, by default, the scappers have a higher damage than the other Melee ATs. This is before you factor in criticals, and these criticals go off of the damage scale before anything else. So, after criticals, the numbers look like this between scrappers and stalkers:
Scrapper: 1.181 vs. minions, 1.203 w/ ATO minions, 1.215 w/ SATO minions, 1.238 vs. others, 1.2823 vs others w/ ATO, 1.305 vs. others w/ SATO.
Stalkers: 1.1 alone, 1.13 w/ 1 teammate, 1.16 w/2, 1.19 w/3, 1.22 w/4, 1.25 w/ 5, 1.28 w/6, 1.31 w/7 teammates.
So, by comparison a stalker can do more damage than a scrapper with their melee attacks against LTs and above if they have 5 teammates, and they can only surpass scrappers with the superior ATO proc if they have 8 teammates. This is saying that 0.005 is actually a meaningful boost, but I don't believe it is. This is all before damage boosts, too. Though the damage boosts are affected evenly by the critical hit mechanic, they still go off of the scale damage. So if a stalker and a scrapper are both enhanced to have 100% damage increase, then this will double the distance between scrappers and stalkers (2.2 w/ no teammates vs. 2.36 against minions. I'll let you guys do the math on that one).
Another short comparison, is that if we were to compare an attack enhanced scrapper with the SATO enhancement (2.61 scale) to an enhanced brute (1.5 scale), it would take a 148% further damage increase to match the scrapper's damage on Lt.s and above. I haven't played a brute, so I don't know the specifics, but this amount hardly seems trivial. Then again, I don't know how hard it is to maintain 74+ furry. So, a brute can beat a scrapper's DPS output, but only after they've been revved up quite a bit.
In finale, I am worried more about tanks than scrappers. Scrappers have melee damage that often matches and exceeds the scales of stalkers in teams, while having more durability, powersets, and AoEs. Brutes can beat out scrappers in damage only after they've been revved up enough. The main advantage that scrappers have is that they are wash and wear, low maintenance fighters. The only thing you'll need to do is slot the ATO global boost, and you're competitive.
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Actually, no. What you just described is the solution to the manufactured problem of needing shiny gimmicks to begin with. To grab a frequent quote from Arcana, adding gimmicks to ATs is not a good thing or a bad thing. It's just a thing. An AT with more gimmicks appeals to a certain type of player that a simple AT won't appeal to and inversely, a simple AT has appeal to those that don't want to jump through hoops.|
Originally Posted by PleaseRecycle
Scrappers don't really have any shiny tricks to their name. I think at this point that's the problem more than any major numerical deficit.
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I personally enjoy the Stalker gimmick so far, but it IS very laborious and attention-reliant and it can become a pain at time. I enjoy the Brute gimmick of keeping Fury up to the extent that I generally don't need to worry about it, but it's there as positive reinforcement. I enjoy the Scrapper gimmick of not having a gimmick to begin with. When I want a no-nonsense fighter who plain old walks up to people and hits them. I pick a Scrapper. I don't have to worry about attack chains or keeping a status bar up or specific combos or specific buffs or specific gimmick powers or having to build up momentum and so forth.
The Scrapper motto is "Scrappers flip out and kill stuff," and that's a pretty apt description of how they work. One moment I'm sitting idle, chatting with a friend of mine, the next I walk up to the next spawn and BAM! I'm fighting at top capacity and using my AT to its fullest potential. I don't need to worry about being broken out of Hide, I don't need to worry about my performance from a cold start and so on, as I mentioned. One moment I'm idle, the next moment I flip out and kill stuff. And I wouldn't have it any other way.
The biggest problem with the role Scrappers serve on a team is the stubborn insistence of finding one for them. I firmly believe that Scrappers have no set role on a team, beyond the most basic one of "use powers to help make enemies dead." A Scrapper can deal damage if need be, tank if need be or even play support at times. Is a Scrapper better than a Stalker? Sometimes. Is a Scrapper better than a Brute? Sometimes. Not always, obviously, but sometimes. But that's really not the question we should be asking. What you should be asking really isn't "What's better?" but rather "What do I enjoy playing more?"
And honestly, after all's said and done, I still enjoy Scrappers the most.
*edit*
Changed a few instances of "Stalker" when I meant to say "Scrapper." The post makes sense again.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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I'm concerned about the community for getting this thread to 106 posts already...
Seriously... concerned about Scrappers...
I'm so worried about the baggage retrieval system they've got at Heathrow.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rdk-rHAndNc
And, just to make it clear:
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This.
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Originally Posted by SpyralPegacyon
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Most importantly, as has been brought up already, scrappers don't have to chase fury, focus, bruising, scourge, or defiance to hit their full potential. Sometimes you just want to wind 'em up and let 'em go, and scrappers are perfect for that. |
@Zethustra
"Now at midnight all the agents and the superhuman crew come out
and round up everyone that knows more than they do"-Dylan
and round up everyone that knows more than they do"-Dylan
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Well stated..VERY well stated. Could not agree more. In bold are the particularly good gems.
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Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
I enjoy the Scrapper gimmick of not having a gimmick to begin with. When I want a no-nonsense fighter who plain old walks up to people and hits them. I pick a Scrapper.
The Scrapper motto is "Scrappers flip out and kill stuff," and that's a pretty apt description of how they work. One moment I'm sitting idle, chatting with a friend of mine, the next I walk up to the next spawn and BAM! I'm fighting at top capacity and using my AT to its fullest potential. I don't need to worry about being broken out of Hide, I don't need to worry about my performance from a cold start and so on, as I mentioned. One moment I'm idle, the next moment I flip out and kill stuff. And I wouldn't have it any other way. I firmly believe that Scrappers have no set role on a team, beyond the most basic one of "use powers to help make enemies dead." |
The development team and this community deserved better than this from NC Soft. Best wishes on your search.
I agree, Sam, but I think that what you quoted there is why this has been coming up so often lately. I don't dislike the stalker change for being a gimmick at all. It's fun and it works, inelegant as some may feel it to be. If that's what it takes to make people happy with an AT, what's wrong with that? The new scrapper bonus power could be a ten second long emote on a five minute timer that makes you foam at the mouth before lashing out wildly in the direction you're facing, that'd probably make someone happy so I wouldn't object to it.
I am personally a brute fan, but all my friends except one still remain with scrappers. They have nothing to fear.
This got long 
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That is definitely part of the issue, but the fact that Brutes and Scrappers can be made to survive this stuff bugs me (but not to the level it may sound in text form), the fact they can be made to survive this stuff and deal more damage doesn't bug me that much because they're supposed to do more damage and surviving is a casualty of being survivable enough (which bugs me on it's own). |
Originally Posted by UberGuy
That doesn't seem to follow, to me. If it's a multiplier (which matches my understanding), they could make the Tanker have the larger multiplier. I don't understand it to be a fixed multiplier shared among ATs.
In any case, it seems to me that the issue (when there is one) is not one of Brutes simply stealing aggro from Tankers. If a Brute steals aggro and dies, then the Tanker can still step in. The issue is that the Brute can steal aggro and usually survive it, which means the Tanker didn't need to be there to start with. |
I've always seen tanks as the playable Phantom army (often) without the stupid, so the ability to survive with more damage and sufficient aggro management tools is what bugs me. The fact that the brute can grab enemy attention unconditionally, like Tankers, and manipulate them (Read:Tank for the team); that's what really gets to me.
And it's not scrappers so much as it's Brutes, though I'll admit scrapper taunt auras annoy me. I'm really, really against non tankers getting taunt auras and Punch-voke, and I have a Spines/Fire Scrapper. I know what can happen if you don't have the aura.
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Originally Posted by UberGuy
Honestly, despite all the gnashing of teeth about cheaty mechanics and irresistible damage, I find Tankers much more reliable in this regard in Incarnate content than Brutes. Don't misunderstand, I know full well that well built and well played Brutes can successfully tank even the most annoying of iTrial bosses. The point is that Tankers seem to have a sufficiently easier time of it that it takes much less optimal builds and/or skilled play to achieve the same result. I think that if there's anywhere that Tankers get to show off how tough they are, iTrials are that place.
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And really, the trials have many ways to temper the damage dealt by characters now-a-days, but those methods don't nullify the damage advantage possesed by damage dealers. If damage is being dealt, better damage dealer dish out more damage. However they also added ways to deal with high survivability, my issue is that the method (autohit unresistable damage) nullifys the tanker's supposed Survivability advantage as the damage dealers still deal proportionately more damage, tankers don't take proportionately less. They're the same as everyone else. If special damage is being taken, tankers take the same as everyone else.
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Originally Posted by BrandX
Actually, I was always for dropping Brutes max resist to 85% and having it so Tankers had the higher resist potential at 90%.
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Originally Posted by Sarrate
Personally, I think that unresisitible damage was added to actually hurt characters that could get near/hit their resistance caps. By allowing Tankers to resist unresistible damage, it would dilute the effect for the AT it was most likely targetted at.
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I guess it could be said that that's exactly what power cells are, but I don't know, that seems like a perception thing. They aren't enemies, they're objectives, and not every trial has something like that when they all have unresistable damage. That's actually an interesting line of thought...
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Originally Posted by Sarrate
Just to be clear, the multiplier is based off the taunt effect's duration, so in order to make Tanker's have threat parity with Brutes and some Scrappers, Tanker taunt effects would need to be on the order of 50-66% longer than they are now to account for it. In other words:
Standard taunt auras: 13.5s -> 20.25s / 22.41s Long taunt auras: 16.875 -> 25.31s / 28s Taunt: 41s -> 61.5s / 68s That's unslotted duration, mind you. Given how much extra threat taunting characters swim in compared to tauntless characters, I think it would make more sense to lower Brute/Scrapper taunt mods rather than increase Tankers. Seriously, taunt auras that lasted 8-9s should still be plenty of extra threat to offtank / stop runners. |
Murphys Military Law
#23. Teamwork is essential; it gives the enemy other people to shoot at.
#46. If you can't remember, the Claymore is pointed towards you.
#54. Killing for peace is like screwing for virginity.
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Tankers are fine. |
Originally Posted by Johnny_Butane
Oh, and what's the Tanker's shtick? That they're the worst of the four fighters at fighting?
And before you answer "Bruising", I've met a disturbingly large number of new or returning players, playing Tankers that don't know and couldn't tell it even exists. If your shtick isn't noticeable enough that people even know it's there, that says something. But it's unlikely the devs would ever do something so extreme. So we're doomed to argue and keep jockeying the four against each other from now until the time the game ends. Well, jockeying three of them since no one but me really gives a damn about Tankers as long as they make consistent farmers and taunt bots. . |
My SOd (with HP Accolades) Willpower/EM Tanker held aggro on Lord Recluse with a bunch of inspirations to allow for Recluses's massive damage.
Tankers hold aggro like no other, they have a mountain of hit points to soak damage from all those foes they've annoyed, every attack they make directs foes to THEM and a good Tanker with Taunt can make his teammates nigh indestructible. That damage issue? You can do great with Super Strength, Fire Melee and if that isn't enough just get the Musculature Alpha to give yourself a nice boost.
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Scrappers are also fine.They are quite survivable, deal an appreciable amount of damage and can crit appreciably doing nothing more than the game's basic functions. IF the Devs look at Scrappers, I wouldn't mind them having an increased chance to critical if surrounded by multiple foes (not a huge increase mind you, just something that would give a boost when pressed) or something along those lines.
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Just Banes. That's analogous to me of the fact that Illusion Controllers have better invis than Hide.
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Originally Posted by Darth_Khasei
Except SOA's right?
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The City of Heroes Community is a special one and I will always look fondly on my times arguing, discussing and playing with you all. Thanks and thanks to the developers for a special experience.
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I thought it was about giving scrappers something unique and special to them. Oh well no worries it ain't happening anyway so....
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Originally Posted by EvilGeko
Just Banes. That's analogous to me of the fact that Illusion Controllers have better invis than Hide.
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The development team and this community deserved better than this from NC Soft. Best wishes on your search.
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So are you saying that a SOd WP Brute, with a bunch inspirations, couldn't do the same thing, wouldn't be the same individual that makes their teamates nigh indistructable, that they couldn't be the same Mountain of hit points? The taunt auras, the ability to pick up taunt, and a taunt with attack effect doesn't do it for Brutes?|
Originally Posted by Neuronia
Tankers are fine.
My SOd (with HP Accolades) Willpower/EM Tanker held aggro on Lord Recluse with a bunch of inspirations to allow for Recluses's massive damage. Tankers hold aggro like no other, they have a mountain of hit points to soak damage from all those foes they've annoyed, every attack they make directs foes to THEM and a good Tanker with Taunt can make his teammates nigh indestructible. That damage issue? You can do great with Super Strength, Fire Melee and if that isn't enough just get the Musculature Alpha to give yourself a nice boost. ----- |
The damage issue? Not really an issue, because Tankers are supposed to do less damage, but the sets you mentioned are shared with Brutes. You can do great with them on Tanks, but You can do Better on Brutes.
Murphys Military Law
#23. Teamwork is essential; it gives the enemy other people to shoot at.
#46. If you can't remember, the Claymore is pointed towards you.
#54. Killing for peace is like screwing for virginity.
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Sure they can, I've seen many Brutes do this in trials, LRSFs and Master runs...but I wasn't comparing but rather trying to reassure Johnny Butane about his favourite AT. Admittedly, this is probably a lost cause until Tankers launch squadrons of stealth bombers from their fists and can tank trial-level Diabolique at level 10.
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Originally Posted by William_Valence
So are you saying that a SOd WP Brute, with a bunch inspirations, couldn't do the same thing, wouldn't be the same individual that makes their teamates nigh indistructable, that they couldn't be the same Mountain of hit points? The taunt auras, the ability to pick up taunt, and a taunt with attack effect doesn't do it for Brutes?
The damage issue? Not really an issue, because Tankers are supposed to do less damage, but the sets you mentioned are shared with Brutes. You can do great with them on Tanks, but You can do Better on Brutes. |
Questions about the game, either side? /t @Neuronia or @Neuronium, with your queries!
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Is it so wrong to want something even if it is not needed? Man can not live on bread and water alone.
I went over this on the beta boards, and it was pretty much the same posters involved. Scrappers don't need anything, but getting something would be nice as every other AT has seen some form of buff except the scrapper it seems. Yes Scrapper power sets have been adjusted (take regen for example), those are the same sets they share with the other ATs.
I agree with the op, the lines are too blurry right now. The only reason I choose one melee AT over the other at this point is for concept, or a power set. Well, scrappers don't have any exclusive power sets.
I maintain scrappers are the black sheep of the ATs. They even get the shaft when it comes to power proliferation. How long has EM, SS, Ice, and Nin been requested by Scrapper players? What did we get in the last round? Axe, Mace, and EA.
In the past there were excuses passed around about EM. Things like "Energy Transfer would just be too powerful for crits." Now, I see things like "Rage would have to change if scrappers got SS, it would be way OP." BS.
Meh, I don't know why I bother. It is like talking to a brick wall. :/ Yeah scrappers are fine as is, so that is such a great reason not to give them anything else (sarcasm intended). Everyone loves when the scrapper is nerfed, God forbid some kind of buff.
As annoying as Johnny can be, I see where he is coming from. All around him AT's are getting good buffs, and growing in power, and yet the Tank is just kinda stuck. I agree with him, Tanks need a real buff. Not the crap they got in the last adjustment. With AT's starting on either side the Brute does overshadow the Tank.
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I've got a DB/WP scrapper, he proves that scrappers ooze awesome sauce! And thats coming from a guy who plays a blaster almost exclusively
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soloing a rikti pylon isn't really that much of a test
a good test would be to go to DA and do incarnate stuff on x8, and see who moves through that faster
Scrappers are more efficient AOE. Stalkers might kill a pylon faster, but that's just single target...and being the best single target takedown is supposed to be a stalkers' job.
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Proposed then complained about on beta thusly dropped.
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Originally Posted by Zyphoid
For some reason I had thought that did happen with the fury changes. Was it proposed and changed?
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BrandX Future Staff Fighter
The BrandX Collection
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Scrappers are one of my favorite ATs. The only ones that came close (and recently tied with) them was Stalkers, and before Stalker buffs it was purely out of love of the concept were they up there.|
Originally Posted by Zyphoid
Is it so wrong to want something even if it is not needed? Man can not live on bread and water alone.
I went over this on the beta boards, and it was pretty much the same posters involved. Scrappers don't need anything, but getting something would be nice as every other AT has seen some form of buff except the scrapper it seems. Yes Scrapper power sets have been adjusted (take regen for example), those are the same sets they share with the other ATs. I agree with the op, the lines are too blurry right now. The only reason I choose one melee AT over the other at this point is for concept, or a power set. Well, scrappers don't have any exclusive power sets. I maintain scrappers are the black sheep of the ATs. They even get the shaft when it comes to power proliferation. How long has EM, SS, Ice, and Nin been requested by Scrapper players? What did we get in the last round? Axe, Mace, and EA. In the past there were excuses passed around about EM. Things like "Energy Transfer would just be too powerful for crits." Now, I see things like "Rage would have to change if scrappers got SS, it would be way OP." BS. Meh, I don't know why I bother. It is like talking to a brick wall. :/ Yeah scrappers are fine as is, so that is such a great reason not to give them anything else (sarcasm intended). Everyone loves when the scrapper is nerfed, God forbid some kind of buff. As annoying as Johnny can be, I see where he is coming from. All around him AT's are getting good buffs, and growing in power, and yet the Tank is just kinda stuck. I agree with him, Tanks need a real buff. Not the crap they got in the last adjustment. With AT's starting on either side the Brute does overshadow the Tank. |
So that said, I can say, I'm not one of those "Buff my AT because my AT hasnt seen a buff" type of players. Do Scrappers need a buff? Nope. Would I like to see a flat crit rate across enemy types instead of the 5%, 10% they have now? Yes.
BrandX Future Staff Fighter
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Actually that is the best reason possible for not giving anyone something, no matter who it is. Unless you give them something that is almost pure fluff, it perpetuates the cycle. "Hey, Scrappers got X!, why didn't my favorite AT get something?" Bonus points to the poster that points out "they needed an improvement less than my favorite AT did", because odds are decent that this would be a true statement.|
Originally Posted by Zyphoid
Yeah scrappers are fine as is, so that is such a great reason not to give them anything else (sarcasm intended). Everyone loves when the scrapper is nerfed, God forbid some kind of buff.
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Now...when we Scrappers nerfed?
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
Samuel_Tow said it better than I was going to. Scrappers are, mechanically, totally straightforward and vanilla. That is WHY I like them. I don't think they need buffs, at least not as a whole. Maybe for a few specific sets, I guess. But I'm not particularly bothered by someone who thinks they do. I may disagree, but not viscerally.
But when someone says scrappers need something "unique", some kind of mechanic that makes them special, my gut opinion shifts from "meh, whatever" to "keep your dirty paws off my favorite AT." Actually, it shifts further than that, but I will refrain because profanity is against forum rules. When I play a scrapper, I don't need to worry about whether I'm leveraging my unique mechanics optimally for the situation and my team. I don't need to rush from spawn to spawn chasing fury, I don't need to set up assassin crit combos, I don't need to gather aggro. I just hit things, and they hit me back, usually in vain. Not only is this extremely low-maintenance play that lets me focus on the fun, it also feels more "super" to me (I know that's always an incredibly vague statement, but I can't think of a better way to say it). Any enemy, any time, anywhere, I fight them head on, and I usually win, without needing to worry about or rely on a gimmick.
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I know I've argued about this with you before, but getting 3 sets proliferated at once that aren't the sets you personally want is not neglect or mistreatment of the AT as a whole. I, personally, was far happier with Mace and EA than I would have been for any of the sets you mentioned. I don't begrudge you your disappointment, but you need to stop trying to construe it this way.
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Originally Posted by Zyphoid
I maintain scrappers are the black sheep of the ATs. They even get the shaft when it comes to power proliferation. How long has EM, SS, Ice, and Nin been requested by Scrapper players? What did we get in the last round? Axe, Mace, and EA.
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If you're just talking about threat, then you're mistaken. Brutes hold the crown for threat generation, and depending on circumstances, Scrappers can win, too.|
Originally Posted by Neuronia
Tankers hold aggro like no other
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Reasoning:
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Brute Scrapper Tanker Threat Mod 4 3 4 *Modified Dmg Mod 2.5125 2.358 1.56 Taunt/Confront 41 23.1 41 Long Aura Duration 16.875 16.875 16.875 Aura Duration 13.5 13.5 13.5 * Modified Dmg Mod is DmgMod * Enhancements * Bonus Brute Bonus == 1.4 for 70% Fury; (this actually gets added into enhancements and not multiplied afterwords.) Scrapper Bonus == 1.075 for crits Tanker == No bonus since Bruising would help Brutes/Scrappers, too
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Threat Build Chart ------------------------------- Brute Taunt (slotted): 803.5 Tanker Taunt (slotted): 498.9 Brute Taunt : 412.0 Scrapper Taunt (slotted): 318.6 Tanker Taunt : 255.8 Brute Long Aura : 169.6 Scrapper Taunt : 163.4 Brute Aura : 135.7 Scrapper Long Aura : 119.4 Tanker Long Aura : 105.3 Scrapper Aura : 95.5 Tanker Aura : 84.2 Threat Build == Threat Mod * Modified Dmg Mod * Taunt Effect Duration
...I really need to get around to writing that threat guide.
[edit: The [ code ] tags still don't use unisized fonts? Gah!]
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Originally Posted by William_Valence
I would be incredibly disappointed if unresistable, unavoidable damage was added with tanker's in mind, rather than mistakenly ignoring the effect on tankers when targeting things not supposed to have the level of survivablility. Brutes; sure. Scrappers; yeah. Blasters;definitely. Tankers? Heck no. They're supposed to take damage better than other classes. They trade their AT damage scale for their AT resistance/Defense mods. The only way I'd buy that there should be Damage that ignores their resistance is if a trial is added where the only way to kill specific, required enemies is by using a Temp power that does the same damage no matter what AT uses it.
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It gets even worse when you start throwing reistance in the mix. Suppose a Blaster with base hp and 25% resistance, an effective hp pool of 1606.4. A Tanker with base hp would have 33.33% resistance, and an effective hp pool of 2811.2. That's a survivability bonus of 75%. Pull that same stunt at capped hp and the difference jumps to 148%.
These are pretty low numbers, compare the extreme, hp & res capped Blaster vs the same on a Tanker. The Blaster would have an effective hp pool of 6425.6 while the Tanker sports an effective hp pool of 35,340, or an additional 450% survivability.
If you're a designer trying to make a dangerous attack, what number do you use? If it's just dangerous to a Blaster, it will tickle a Tanker. Make it dangerous to a Tanker, it could insta-gib a Blaster.
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Originally Posted by William_Valence
Doesn't the WP aura last like 3s, and it was found that a tanker couldn't Taunt (ranged taunt) an enemy off? I can't remember what was going on with that, or if I got that right, I don't know if you remember the details on that or not.
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Threat mechanics are incredibly complex and haven't been fully explained (because of their complexity), but range does play a role - the farther away you are, the less threat you generate. Also, taunt effects, while they generate threat in and of themselves, are mainly threat multipliers. It's far more effective to Taunt something then hit it with a damaging attack than it is to just spam Taunt. It is also easier to hold aggro than it is to steal it. We've been told that stealing aggro requires building up double the threat the current target has.
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My issue is, the Blaster isn't supposed to have survivablility. Maybe someday Arcanaville will succeed, and Blasters will be intended to have survivablility, but now they're not supposed to. I don't bat an eyelash at those numbers because that's what's supposed to be. The problem is, Tanks are supposed to be gainfully more survivable than everyone else as well. I just don't know if that's the case. |
Originally Posted by Sarrate
I say it's more likely aimed at Tankers because of how their survivability ramps up. Think about it this way, a Blaster has 1204.8 hp base, Tankers have 1874. That's a survivability advandate of ~55.5% just on raw hitpoints. HP capped, a Blaster has a meager 1606.4 and a Tanker has 3534, a survivability edge of ~120%.
It gets even worse when you start throwing reistance in the mix. Suppose a Blaster with base hp and 25% resistance, an effective hp pool of 1606.4. A Tanker with base hp would have 33.33% resistance, and an effective hp pool of 2811.2. That's a survivability bonus of 75%. Pull that same stunt at capped hp and the difference jumps to 148%. These are pretty low numbers, compare the extreme, hp & res capped Blaster vs the same on a Tanker. The Blaster would have an effective hp pool of 6425.6 while the Tanker sports an effective hp pool of 35,340, or an additional 450% survivability. If you're a designer trying to make a dangerous attack, what number do you use? If it's just dangerous to a Blaster, it will tickle a Tanker. Make it dangerous to a Tanker, it could insta-gib a Blaster. |
When you have a Brute with it's HP level, access to buffs, and caps; I don't see Tankers as gainfully more survivable in that case. When you go HP vs HP, there is a 10% difference in HP at the cap, 20% at base. It'd be interesting to see how many more ticks of turret damage a tanker can take with that HP. That's what, 9% to 16% equivilant resistance, or did I do the conversion wrong?
And if I'm a designer making a dangerous attack, I wouldn't forget that the Tank AT is intended by design to take those attacks as a proxy for allies. That's what taunt is for, that's what Gauntlet is for, that's what the auras are for, that's what the damage secondary (with lesser damage mods) is for and that's what the survivablility primary (with greater mods) is for. The two problems are, and I've been harping on this for a few posts now, Brutes have access to the same tools as a legacy from being the exclusive aggro controlling class, as well as incredibly competative survivability that is within the bounds of being enough for all content I can think of, or was at least enough for the redside content up to side switching.
When you look at the survivability problem you can Either make content more damaging, to the point where Tankers numbers are required to survive holding aggro, but that would hurt everyone including baby Tanks without the Apocolypse level, soft-capped Ela/ builds. Or you can look at the part that hits everyone incredibly hard, and make it hit Tanks less.
It wouldn't drastically change the meta, (or even the lack of survivability gap between brutes and tankers) and make tanks the uber trial AT, if tankers get to ignore marked for death, disintigration, nova fist, the AM pulse, the pink patches, or the blue patches. It would however change perception quite a bit. Sure, the Brute can hold it's own against the iTrial spawns and he can do more damage, but he gets the hell outa dodge when he see's Marked for Death or Pink Swirlies. Me? I'm a Tank, I stand in the middle of it and shrug it off! That what what I'm thinking when I say let them avoid this crap.
Add to that the need for Tanks to be the best aggro managers, and I think you could set aside all legitimate gripes about the AT.
Murphys Military Law
#23. Teamwork is essential; it gives the enemy other people to shoot at.
#46. If you can't remember, the Claymore is pointed towards you.
#54. Killing for peace is like screwing for virginity.
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Yeah. Arwen Darkblade has stolen aggro from Major Decoy. Not in a way that using taunt wouldn't get it right back, but I needed to use taunt, despite attacking constantly. Granted, I didn't have Rage active, and a Super Strength tank without Rage active is very low on the spectrum of tanker damage, but the point remains that a scrapper was stealing aggro.
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Originally Posted by Sarrate
If you're just talking about threat, then you're mistaken. Brutes hold the crown for threat generation, and depending on circumstances, Scrappers can win, too.
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The development team and this community deserved better than this from NC Soft. Best wishes on your search.