Concerned about Scrappers.

I can't believe I'm actually agreeing with Johnny Butane but Scrappers do not need anything. They're probably one of the best balanced ATs in the game.

I don't. Why should I buff the damage of any Brutes and Scrappers around me even more? I already take all the heat off them and they already take more than they give back.

You know what? Nerf Scrapper damage 20% and give them a 25% -res debuff on all attacks. There. They effectively do 5% more damage, and actually contribute to the team now.


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I attempt to agree with you, and you go on the attack.

See, unlike some I do like having a tank on the team over a brute, because most tanks actually take taunt. They actually attempt to hold agro rather than just minding the fury bar. I am convince that there is NOTHING the devs could do to tanks that would make you happy, because you don't want to be happy. Until tanks are like Superman and can take more damage than anyone else (which they already can) AND do more damage than anyone else, you are not going to like it. As much as you complain why have you not found a new game to play yet?

I'd certainly take that...on my Stalkers even. Had that been the change, -10% res on critical hits, would have made the AT properly unique vs rolling them into standard melee DPS viability...

Did anyone actually say Scrappers needed anything?

Uh... all 3 of my Brutes have already/ are going to take taunt. The only one who might not is the Staff Fighting, and I'm not sure if I'm rolling a Brute or a Scrapper in that case.

Originally Posted by Shubbie Im very good at taking a problem and making it worse.

All of my Tankers hit the damage cap with ONE Kin on the team. Without any IOs for +dam. All of my SS Tankers and my Shield can do it on their own. And at the cap they'll still do less damage than my Brute, who doesn't faceplant and still has plenty of room to improve offensively and defensively.

What do I care about +Dam when it doesn't do jack until they bring Tanker caps in line with Brute caps. They get the same regen, resistance and defense potential as Tankers, and only 10% less max HP potential. Tankers get a heck of a lot less then -10% Brute damage potential.

And yes, I have been fighting the the caps to be reevaluated.


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This is an honest question, but didn't the brute resistance cap get lowered when the fury changes were made?

Ah, but stalkers should've been shredding pylons from the beginning. They're supposed to be the kings of single-target burst damage, the new changes actually made that into reality. But its a trade-off. Scrappers get better survivability and superior AoE.

Most importantly, as has been brought up already, scrappers don't have to chase fury, focus, bruising, scourge, or defiance to hit their full potential. Sometimes you just want to wind 'em up and let 'em go, and scrappers are perfect for that.

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Um... There are only two times my Brutes hit their damage caps - either with 2+ Kins in play (usually only on trials) or by chomping a tray of reds - in which case I'm farming. Is it really that big an issue that I can chomp 2.5 times the number of reds to cap for farming purposes?

As an aside - I think any defense based set should give more Defense Debuff resistance to tankers than Brutes.

Originally Posted by Shubbie Im very good at taking a problem and making it worse.

Your "attempt to agree" with me included a backhanded insult.

...and right after you try to be even more inflammatory.



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I don't think the Resistance caps were changed then. however the Brute Damage Cap most definitely was. IIRC the cap was changed so that a Brute at Capped Damage would be doing noticeably less damage than a Capped Scrapper.

Of course that doesn't change the inbetween where I think Brutes can more readily match/surpass Scrapper damage.

If you factor in Criticals then Scrappers remain ahead at all times.

Originally Posted by Shubbie Im very good at taking a problem and making it worse.

No.


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Times like these I wish I had that, "don't know if stupid or trolling," picture handy.

But yeah, Stalkers have the same chance to crit that Scrappers have on Lietuneants all the time. Stalkers have a base 10% crit chance on underlings, minions, lieutenants, bosses, archvillains, etc. It goes up with teammates in range. It's an auto-crit for most single-target powers out of Hide, and a 50% chance for aoe powers out of Hide. AFAIK, they can double crit as well if the stars align and they get a Hide crit in addition to their 10-30% base chance to crit.

And, as mentioned, critical hits aren't even exclusive to Scrappers and Stalkers. Corruptors have them, and so do Controllers. Those are gated behind conditions unlike Stalkers, but they still occur with enough frequency that not factoring them in is a bit silly.

There you go then, Scrappers out damage Brutes, Brutes survive better than Scrappers.

Hooray the melee AT's actually line up the way they were supposed to

Survivability -> Damage

Tanker, Brute, Scrapper, Stalker

The first time I didn't intend to, but can see how it would be taken as such.

The second time it was intentional.

I didn't say that, and I'm the one that started the thread.

The only thing I suggested was MAYBE increase the base critical chance to 10%, and I also said in the same paragraph that I wasn't convinced it was needed or that it wouldn't be overpowered.

If anything, the stalker buffs have done nothing but make stalkers LESS unique than they were before. Not in the idea behind them, but in the way people are actually playing them now.

My level 33 Electric/Energy stalker (who I am enjoying greatly btw) does not have Placate, and I have no plans to take it. I also rarely use AS while Hidden anymore.

What it seems to have done, in an effort to appease stalker players, is make stalkers more like scrappers and less like a unique AT of their own.

Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison See, it's gems like these that make me check Claws' post history every once in a while to make sure I haven't missed anything good lately.

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Unfortunately, the things that made Stalkers unique were not very practically valuable in the game, for several reasons. For one thing, their AT-specific abilities relied on mechanics that didn't mesh well with the way lots of teams play. They also were generally able to match the sustained damage of other melee ATs only under highly specific conditions, usually with a more single-target focus, while simultaneously being the most fragile melee AT.

There may well have been other changes that would have kept Stalkers "more unique", but I honestly do not think many people would have valued that sense of uniqueness as much as having the perception that Stalkers were highly competitive in damage dealing. I don't know what motivations the Devs had for the course they took with the change Stalkers got, but I suspect that they were simply something they realized they could leverage relatively easily from several new-ish tech features added to the engine - the DB\StJ combo features and the Titan Weapon power "swapping". They were probably looking for a "quick hit" change, which probably simply made Stalkers into slightly different Scrappers.

Edit: To be fair, I think Stalkers were always functionally closer in my mind to Scrappers than Scrappers were to Brutes, because of how Brutes straddle the Scrapper / Tanker role. Stalkers just weren't as good at it as they are now.

Holy bejeebus! I've been saying the exact same thing before the Stalker changes went into beta!

And no, I'm not crying about my Stalkers. I've embraced my Stalkers fully as Scrappers, because that's what they are now. I've played and fixed up the build on my Spines/Dark stalker, I've offered to play along with other people on the forums with my Dark/WP, and all the while I can forego using placate and actually turn off hide if I feel like it.

My Stalkers play great now...they just aren't really Stalkers, though...

Same here.