Discussion: Featured Items at the Paragon Market - 3/20/12

What would you call Going Rogue then which included demons for MM, dual pistols for ranged ATs, Kin melee for melee ats and elec control for the control types? unsavoury I guess.

Really? You are really wanting to go there with this? You seem to forget that GR was a PAID expansion, not free... That being said the powersets that came with that expansion had already been accounted for in the price of the game. It was like prepaying for the sets with a credit card, while still collecting the monthly fee. So I would say unsavory...

No.

The Points you receive are so you can get the extras at no extra cost. With the Points they give you, you can get 6 new power sets a year at no additional cost. Plus whatever extra free stuff is in the 3 no-additional-cost Issues you get.

You're getting more now than you did before.

But they're producing more stuff on top that than they've ever done before. If you want it all, you have to pay extra... like you did for Booster Packs.

VIPs did *NOT* lose anything in the shift to FREEDOM, instead, they *gained.*

That point is a fact.

Zombie, you are usually looked to as the old grandmother (no offense) of this community on issues like these, I respect that, and I also agree with you when you say we should pay for the extra (as I am not crying that we should get everything free as VIP's). There should be a uniformity with pricing, VIP's should have different rates on top of what you quote to be a discount as the 400 is more of a Thank you for staying VIP. That would be like going to a club and reserving a VIP table but you dont have to pay for the 250 dollar bottle of booze as a minimal to get that booth, could be a bad example, but I think you know where I am coming from with using it.

I fail to see how VIP's actually gain from this. I would have rather seen them provide us with an option as to what we want our free set to be versus them picking it for us on top of the price uniformity. It's sad as I am sure you admitted the same thing that a vanity pet like the little green fellah that did not drink green beer and puke rainbows cost as much as a new powerset for a very minor inf buff, then we get other pets that cost 600, 400 and w/e else and they are much more of a liability with detoggling toons of their mez defenses etc, but their abilities are a bit more useful.

I've never heard of being able to buy a car that comes with a guarantee of every single extra you'll ever want for it - but I have heard of stores that only sell car accessories

This is error in view the 400-550 points aren't free or a discount coupon.

We the players have 2 choices when we spend $15.

a) 1320 Paragon points and able to do about 80% of the content.

or

b) 400-550 Paragon Points and able to get about 95% of the content. (I would say 100% but you do have to pay for some power sets.)


With option A you could spend the points to increase the amount of content you get. If Paragon ever allows you to buy incarnate with PP then there is a tipping point where this is the better deal. (or it already is if you don't do incarnate stuff.)

With option B there's less and less that is appealing. Eventually burn out of the extra stuff won't have the appeal it once had. And Paragon won't be keeping up with the demand of the newer "free" shiney as the VIP base drops.

Its like the online music stores. Some places you buy each song you want. Others you subscribe a set price for all the music but only get it for 30 days. First option the music is yours but your catalog is limited by your bank account. The second your catalog is unlimited but in the end you own nothing. (Yes there is the pirate option on music but it doesn't fit the the model of COH.)

VIPs 400-550 points arent extra they are just part of the either or choice.

I can agree with you that the handling of pricing and decisions about what goes to Market can be improved.

However, I was arguing against the point that VIPs should get all powersets free otherwise our VIP status means nothing. VIP status means picking out for free a good chunk of extra content at no extra cost as well as still enjoying the 3 no-extra-cost Issues.



When you qualify for 550 points a month, that's a 150 point month discount for being a long time Vet.

It's already part of 'the plan.'

I made a choice to buy the whole car - by being VIP. Now half the bits are taken away. Sure I used to pay for leather seats over standard cloth but now I'm being asked to pay for the seats! If you want to build your own car from components then that's fine. I don't have the time to sit on the net doing that.

No it isn't a fact. It's your opinion and that doesn't make it a fact.

VIPs used to get powersets for free and now have to pay for them. That's not a gain.

VIPs used to be access all content and now have to pay for it. That's not a gain.

Paragon are more interested in fleecing short-term players via micro transactions on the market than supporting a player base which has been loyal since the beginning. That's why we see the current influx of (even more unecessary) currencies and pay-to-win such as store bought IOs etc. It's no different to the oft-mentioned cash cow of wonder or the RMAH in an up-coming game from the same company.

No matter which way it's sliced up it looks like a rip off. Hearts and minds are important and no hearts and minds are won by appearing to fleece your customers.

CoX had a major attraction and that was the 'all-inclusive' price. Now that's gone out the window and you can spend half your life working out the most 'cost efficient' way to play.

No idea who they brought in to come up with the current implementations but I'd like them to be returned to whichever failed game they came.

We do get Powersets for free. In the last 3 issues we've gotten Time, Dark Control and the also the semi-new Dark Assault and Dark Affinity.

That's pretty much in line with older releases.

We get some extra ones which you have to pay for, but that doesn't mean you aren't pretty much the same number of free ones as you did.

With regards to Content what new Content (I assume you mean Zones, Stories and Arcs) do we have to pay for as VIPs? We've gotten the new DA, the Praetorian zone and a number of new Story arcs and trials recently, none of which I had to pay extra for (having to pay for Going Rogue to get access to some of these maybe counts, but that was before Freedom anyway)

The only new things which we pay for now really are cossie pieces. And we still get some for free (I've been away for a couple of months but Olympic Guard is one which seems newish and free, from the top of my head)

I don't like some of the things going onto the stores, like some IOs which I personally don't think should be there, but a number of your statements above are demonstrably false.

You're really not counting the relative value of that content, though- a single incarnate trial is more play value than three level 10-20 zones in general.

It's not opinion... It is fact. You're just failing to see it.

Let me make it as crystal clear for you as possible, since it's been stated numerous times, in this very thread alone.

If we were still under the old model, where $15 a month got you everything made, and the market didn't exist, you would have aproximately 3 new sets TOTAL FOR THE ENTIRE GORRAM YEAR!!!!!

Think back to how it used to be, I mean really think. Then for the facts go to the Wiki and look at how many powersets came out each calendar year... I'll wait...

Do you see now?

The only reason all the new sets exist is the simple fact that they can charge individually for them, the more sets sell, the more money is devoted to creating more sets ad infinatum.

I'll say it again. If we were still under your preffered model, we'd have gotten 3 sets since GR was released! That's TOTAL.

Now, take that into account and add up how many brand spanking new powersets have been created in just the last two months alone.

See the pattern?

See why we get so worked up when you acuse the Dev's of fleecing?!?
They have issues when it comes to pricing, I'll concede that, the market is far from perfect, but we're far from the nickel and diming that it could be.

Le Sigh...

The big point of it is that the pricing is off. 800 points seems pretty reasonable when you look at it, until you actually think of it.

"Drawing the line" has been mentioned in here quite a few times, so I'm going to use it too. The devs release a new powerset where you pay 800 points, and I'm going to assume staff is going to be 800 as well. In about a month span those two powersets will be out with eachother, which is $20 of just 2 powersets.

Yes this is more than what we usually got but we are already paying to use all of the other features that distinguishes VIP. If 2 powersets are going to be out a month then the 400 i get isn't going to keep up with it very long, especially if I want added benefits of the store.

I think what the point is, is that we VIP are walking away paying the same amount for these 'micro-transactions' as freemium but we have our money invested into years subscription (some less). It does seem like a slap in the face to any kind of loyalty

Since Freedom launched how many new powersets have there been? I don't think it's 2 per month. I think it's < 1 in fact (but more than 0.5, which is to be expected).

Maybe my maths just suck, I haven't bothered working it out too much but assuming that by the start of May we'll have had 5 sets since Freedom (Street Justice, Beam Rifle, Titan Weapons, Beast Mastery and Staff Fighting) for a total of 4000 points. Since Freedom launched at the end of September, 7 months by the end of April / Start of may (actually is that right, my that'd mean they are releasing 5/7s of a powerset a month, or 571 points a months worth of powerset.

So if you wanted absolutely every powerset released you'd be spending 171 points a month, which is 2.13 a month extra (if 400 points = 5 quid)

However if you're a vet with the 550 points per month thing going on then its only a 21 point a month "cost", so 0.26 a month instead for all powersets, on top of your monthly.

Given that the rate of Free sets seems reasonably consistant with pre-Freedom I don't see that being too bad in terms of cost. But then I don't want every new set which comes out personally so I may be biased.

*Edited for counting of months failure!

On what planet could that possibly be true? There are more players who don't have 50s than players who do, even among the players with 50s, there are vastly more characters who have been through 10-20 than have hit 50 (big duh on that one), and not all 50s take part in the incarnate trials.

This *is* a valid line of argument. It is true that because CoH is soaking its players with microtransactions, they are able to create more content than before.

But there is a balance between soaking everybody and just wringing money out of the Premium players. That balance is off. VIPs are already giving the company money, they should get benefits that are demonstrably superior to Premium players. They're not. Instead, NCSoft is trying to grab as much money as they can from the VIPs. They are creating more content but subscribers are being asked to pay more money for it. That is not an improvement over the old model.

A fairer system would give the VIPs every new costume item and powerset for free *and* 400 PP/month to buy vanity items like rocket boards and frizbees. The VIPs are already subscribers and should not be asked to pay more for core parts of the game.

If $15/month isn't enough to cover that, they should have the courage to up the subscription cost to $20 or $25/month. Being a VIP should mean more than having a colored name on the forums. There should be no question that it is better to be a VIP than a Premium player. Right now that's very much in doubt.

Gotcha.

Yeh don't misunderstand my opinion/points/arguements I am not asking that we VIP's should get everything free. I am fine with micro-transactions, that's what gets us more content, more powers and more more more. I am in total disagreement with the presentation or roll out, if you will, of the fluctuating pricing scale. That and I still believe that the market should have, at least, another 10% or so extra discount to listed items for subscribed members. I think that to be fair and not alot to ask for along with the uniformity of pricing, Then perhaps F2P will see a reason to go VIP and Paragon can make more money to develop more content, powers, etc.

EDIT: ALso where is everyone getting this 400-550 PP I only see a consecutive 400 per month, unless I missed something more recent...

Also I would like to have the option of choosing which powerset I'd like to receive free, even if I have to wait for its release. IE Dark Control came out, beautiful set, and I would have bought it anyway but I would have selected staves as my prime choice of power, I am a melee person at heart, what can I say.

When I say VIP I mean those that have paid 1 month to a 1 year plus (consecutive or in total) or that have hung around before launch of freedom. I use 7+ years as I express thats how long I have been paying and playing.

EDIT: Also you need to read what i said to Zombie and you will see you have misunderstood what I was talking about in general...

I think I'll go to one of those accessory stores right now and demand everything for free... after all I pay Ford $400 a month subscription fee.

No, it's fact. Let me show you...


There are VIPs who have said in this thread they haven't had to pay anything more than their the $15 sub fee for all the power sets. They used their VIP Paragon Points, which they got for free, to freely obtain those sets.



Subscribers had to pay for CoV to use it its first few years. Subscribers had to pay for Going Rogue to use it. So, it's indeed a fact that not all content used to be free to subscribers.

And what content is now gated away from VIPs? That costs more to obtain? Are you counting costumes and certain powers? We used to have to pay for booster packs, remember?

It is a FACT that not all content was pay-one-price previously.

It is a FACT that VIPs are getting more now than they did previously:

• Full access to the game: VIPs don't have to pay for Preatoria, but previously, subs did

• One free stackable server transfer per month for VIPs, but previously used to cost $10

• 3 free Issues a year which still includes new power sets -- the same

• VIPs get a stipend to buy even more stuff than what was in booster packs; previously, you shelled out at least $30 for what came out in a year in boosters.

Tier 9 VIPs get 550pp as their stipend per month. So tiers 1 through 8 get 400pp a month, Teir 9s get an extra 150 points a month.

That's interesting, because I am tier 9 and have been and I never seen 550 PP I always seens 400. I will go to my master account and double check as i dont ever recall 550. Ty for the reply though...

EDIT: OIC It's noted as bonus with the completed 400 points. That would be a cool thing to add to balance VIP and F2P an additional amount of points per full subscribed year with you PP, instead of the other discount option I mentioned, that could be a simple fix.

I've been a Tier-9 VIP since day 1 of Freedom. I haven't spent a dime on microtransactions -- I refuse to. I've used my points to buy power sets, one costume set (barbarian) and I think a costume slot. I still do not have Street Fighting. I could get it, but I'm saving points for Staff Fighting. I will not be able to get both until June (by which time more powersets may be offered). It *might* be possible to get all the powersets using only the VIP stipend, but only for Tier-9 VIPs, and only if they forgo everything else on the market.

Conversely, a Premium subscriber only has to pay $5-$10 per powerset -- please correct me if I'm wrong. They can get all of the new power sets for one half the price of my *discounted* yearly subscription. If you're only interested in power sets, it's far, far better to be a Premium player. (In fact, it's better to be a Premium player in all cases except incarnate content.)

Both CoV and Going Rogue were huge expansions. I don't think anyone minds paying a one-time price for those.

I did not like the booster packs, mostly because I knew that they would end in a vile microtransaction system. But I bought them because I wanted to support the game. That kind of goodwill fades after time unless renewed, and they've done nothing to renew it.

But it is a fact that VIPs are being treated better than Premium players? I'm not sure, but I think not.

I'll grant that 'City of Heroes: Freedom' has a lot to offer above and beyond the old CoH. But the main beneficiaries of the new content are the microtransaction-happy Premium players. Loyal subscribers -- the VIPs and long-term vets -- are being treated like cash cows who will stick around no matter how much they milk us. And milking us they are.

We do get about half for free and the other half could be argued would not be there at all if they did not charge for them. I would rather have half free and the others we waited five years for like staff fighting paid otherwise we don't get the.