Protip: SBE Decimation Build-Up proc
By
Android_5Point9,
Posted on: 2012-03-11 02:46 in Archetypes and Powers General Discussion
SBEs were already better than regular IOs even before considering proc rates. They scaled with the player so you could retain bonuses at a very low level without paying the opportunity costs in enhancement values. Without those advantages I really wouldn't bother with many of the sets.
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Main problem is this never would have happened if they actually gave us time to test these - they showed up on the beta server about 12 hours before they were added to the store on live.
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Originally Posted by blueruckus
Main problem I see with this is that we're paying real money for these now so changing the rules all of a sudden won't go over so well for those who are directly funding their operation further. The market has been open for about what, 5-6 months now, and there's been no issue with these thus far. Synapse made one single vague sentence regarding Performance Shifter in Stamina but nothing in regards to anything else.
In regards to complaining about pay2win, please these things are like 1-2 bucks. You'll spend 10 bucks on fake clothes, but now that they're selling something meaningful it becomes a Paragon witch hunt? If you don't want to buy these, then fine, don't. Your game experience won't change. |
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Originally Posted by Shubbie
Im very good at taking a problem and making it worse.
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is you use a catalyst on these do the PPM get buffed?
The Proc Per Minute feature was a creative way to help power with long recharges. I liked the idea of a proc not being useless in long recharging powers.
Leave it to the players to find ways to break it without breaking the rules. 
Hey guys, be careful, because I think they're looking into this.
http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showt...28#post4147128
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I think there'd be quite a few angry customers looking for refunds if they nerf the ppm system/formula in a big way. And rightfully so.
I'm not saying broken things should be left broken but when something is advertised to work a certain way and you charge real money for it and then change the way it works you've basically got a "bait and switch" situation.
They would have to refund points to anyone who was unsatisfied with how the proc works if changed. Granted the store bought enhancement procs system is designed around recharge times and probably didn't take passive powers into account and changing the way the performance shifter proc (and similar procs) works in a PASSIVE power should be ok. As long as the current proc per minute system continues to function normally in activated powers.
Oh and for some useful information: Powers like pets or pseudo pet creating powers do NOT use the ppm formula based on the casting power's recharge but rather the recharge time of the powers the pets/pseudo pets use.
So say putting the smashing dmg proc from the KB set into Phantasm will not make it so all Phanty's blasts will essentially have guaranteed procs. The proc rate will be based on how quickly Phanty cycles his powers.
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Several bucks on IO's for my characters so I get my uber BU and uber stamina, several more on super packs so I get my superior ATO's, and 15 a month so I can be an all-powerful incarnate that lords over the "poor" guys.|
Originally Posted by blueruckus
In regards to complaining about pay2win, please these things are like 1-2 bucks. You'll spend 10 bucks on fake clothes, but now that they're selling something meaningful it becomes a Paragon witch hunt? If you don't want to buy these, then fine, don't. Your game experience won't change.
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Then if I need influence, I buy enhancement converters and easily get purples/PVP IO's.
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I don't see it that way. To me this is a non-advantage, because I never build characters with that consideration. Also, you cannot boost SBEs with Enhancement boosters. On this count, I would never, ever pay "real money" for these sets.|
Originally Posted by ketch
SBEs were already better than regular IOs even before considering proc rates. They scaled with the player so you could retain bonuses at a very low level without paying the opportunity costs in enhancement values. Without those advantages I really wouldn't bother with many of the sets.
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It's vaguely possible I would consider some of the procs.
Honestly, the only one we've come up with that I consider is the Gaussian's, which doesn't exist yet from the store as far as I know. And that's only if it works like we're speculating.
Bear in mind that SBE damage procs appear to suck horribly compared to the standard ones when slotted in AoEs. Based on our admittedly limited understanding of them so far, it appears that the absolute best average proc rate is one target per attack activation. That's assumes it's slotted in something with a base recharge >= PPM/60 and that you saturate the attack's target cap every time. If you do neither of those things you average less than one proc per activation.
That's pay to lose, IMO.
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You can't use catalysts on anything but ATEs. It does increase the proc rate on those.
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Originally Posted by Dz131
is you use a catalyst on these do the PPM get buffed?
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Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
The new market place IO's are definitely INTERESTING, but I hesitate to buy something that seems so potentially overpowered. Such things usually get nerfed. I'd rather keep my money for the time being until I feel that changes to these things are less likely, and then maybe I'll start factoring them into potential builds.
Set IO's in the game and the one on the market should do "EXACTLY" the same thing. I don't get the debate....
The development team and this community deserved better than this from NC Soft. Best wishes on your search.
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Thing is, they don't. The procs in store specifically have the wording "fires roughly X times per minute". This was why I thought they were initially inferior to crafted versions.|
Originally Posted by Darth_Khasei
Set IO's in the game and the one on the market should do "EXACTLY" the same thing. I don't get the debate....
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It's just weird how much they differ, haha. Fast recharging power? Stick a crafted one. Long recharge? Stick a store one. AoE? Uh... your guess is as good as mine.
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Seems like the devs don't agree with you. There was little reason to use IO procs in slow recharge attacks and it seems like they recognized that. SBE offers more flexibility and now makes procs viable in all powers. The new PPM system is a definite improvement.|
Originally Posted by Darth_Khasei
Set IO's in the game and the one on the market should do "EXACTLY" the same thing. I don't get the debate....
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If your disagreement is on the method of obtaining them, well that's a different story, but should be a separate debate from the idea that PPM is a better/worse system.
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Originally Posted by Arbiter Hawk
This is a bit of a trick question - these procs that you mention function like store-bought IO procs, so their chance to proc with any given power activation fluctuates with the power's recharge time and some other factors. The long and short of it is that you should put the proc in a power you like to use, but this Proc-per-minute functionality does not advantage, say, Neutrino Bolt over X-Ray Eyes, if you like using X-Ray more. Slot the procs into attacks that you use, and you'll see them go off fairly regularly.
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You may not see it that way, but it's undeniably easier to build towards certain goals like perma-dom or perma-PA when you don't have to worry about your set bonuses dropping out. You get the bonuses at lower levels and you don't lose the enhancement you would slotting a level 35 vs a level 50 enhancement. As to boosters, I generally am not using them on powers that I have 4-6 slotted for bonuses as they often already hit diminishing returns on important aspects. Mostly, I've reserved them for to get more mileage out of powers like Hasten or Stamina that I want to push to 95%+ enhancement on 2 slots.|
Originally Posted by UberGuy
I don't see it that way. To me this is a non-advantage, because I never build characters with that consideration. Also, you cannot boost SBEs with Enhancement boosters. On this count, I would never, ever pay "real money" for these sets.
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It's vaguely possible I would consider some of the procs. Honestly, the only one we've come up with that I consider is the Gaussian's, which doesn't exist yet from the store as far as I know. And that's only if it works like we're speculating. Bear in mind that SBE damage procs appear to suck horribly compared to the standard ones when slotted in AoEs. Based on our admittedly limited understanding of them so far, it appears that the absolute best average proc rate is one target per attack activation. That's assumes it's slotted in something with a base recharge >= PPM/60 and that you saturate the attack's target cap every time. If you do neither of those things you average less than one proc per activation. That's pay to lose, IMO. |
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If they change them after the fact they can just refund the points. Not seeing an issue here.
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Originally Posted by blueruckus
Main problem I see with this is that we're paying real money for these now so changing the rules all of a sudden won't go over so well for those who are directly funding their operation further. The market has been open for about what, 5-6 months now, and there's been no issue with these thus far. Synapse made one single vague sentence regarding Performance Shifter in Stamina but nothing in regards to anything else.
In regards to complaining about pay2win, please these things are like 1-2 bucks. You'll spend 10 bucks on fake clothes, but now that they're selling something meaningful it becomes a Paragon witch hunt? If you don't want to buy these, then fine, don't. Your game experience won't change. |
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Do you honestly see that happening? If they do, that's great, but I just cant imagine them saying "Alright, we screwed up, here's your money back, everyone.". That's a dangerous precedent to set.
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Originally Posted by Aura_Familia
If they change them after the fact they can just refund the points. Not seeing an issue here.
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you can pretty much guarantee that it won't happen now, discoveries like this need to be kept tight lipped imo Hope the ppm formula doesn't get nerfed cause the op wasn't savy enough to keep quiet
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Originally Posted by DreadShinobi
They haven't done Gaussians set yet have they? Cause the BU proc from that, if they follow trend @ 1 PPM, would be 100% proc rate in any BU or Aim power lol.
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Can't really imagine Paragon becoming upset at all the cash coming in from the surge in SBE purchases. This is a business after all.
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Originally Posted by Cheetatron
you can pretty much guarantee that it won't happen now, discoveries like this need to be kept tight lipped imo Hope the ppm formula doesn't get nerfed cause the op wasn't savy enough to keep quiet
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If it is not working as intended, then it _should_ be fixed, better now than 3 months-3 years down the line when there will be many unhappy customers. |
Originally Posted by Cheetatron
yuo can pretty much guarantee that it won't happen now discoveries like this need to be kept tight lipped imo Hope thid doesn't get nerfed cause the op wasn't savy enough to keep quiet
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If it is working as intended, and the developers do decide to nerf it, then it will be on them to refund people their points. But honestly, I don't think it's broken. It is better than the normal version, but so are all of the SBEs. And if they do nerf it, it's not going to be because of this thread. And if they don't implement the Gaussian proc at 1 PPM, it won't be because of this thread. If it wasn't meant to be in the game, then it wasn't meant to be in the game, thread or not.
Being all secretive over stuff like this is pretty silly.
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Well said, sir.
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Originally Posted by DreadShinobi
If it is not working as intended, then it _should_ be fixed, better now than 3 months-3 years down the line when there will be many unhappy customers.
If it is working as intended, and the developers do decide to nerf it, then it will be on them to refund people their points. But honestly, I don't think it's broken. It is better than the normal version, but so are all of the SBEs. And if they do nerf it, it's not going to be because of this thread. And if they don't implement the Gaussian proc at 1 PPM, it won't be because of this thread. If it wasn't meant to be in the game, then it wasn't meant to be in the game, thread or not. Being all secretive over stuff like this is pretty silly. |
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If we players can figure it out, the devs can figure it out even more easily. Even if you could somehow convince every player to never talk about it, you couldn't prevent the devs from finding this kind of thing. At worst, Ghost Falcon would get curious when he added the Gaussian set to the store and sold tons of procs, and would look into it. Far better to get it fixed before it can upset too many people.|
Originally Posted by Cheetatron
you can pretty much guarantee that it won't happen now, discoveries like this need to be kept tight lipped imo Hope the ppm formula doesn't get nerfed cause the op wasn't savy enough to keep quiet
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Oh, and yeah, broken things should be fixed.
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Well seeing as they didn't give a respec this issue, despite the fact they created giant needs for them, you are probably right.|
Originally Posted by blueruckus
Do you honestly see that happening? If they do, that's great, but I just cant imagine them saying "Alright, we screwed up, here's your money back, everyone.". That's a dangerous precedent to set.
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As to being a dangerous precedent most people would call it normal business practice. Imagine if you were in a restaurant and after you had ordered they get new menus in with revised prices. You would hardly expect to pay the revised prices and the restaurant would hardly expect you to.
Of course this is the problem with selling power in game. Its one thing to change part of how a game works, its another thing to sell people one thing and change what they bought post purchase.
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That's a stupid approach. If something isn't balanced, whether it be too weak or too strong, we need to bring it up and see that it is. The developers of this game *do* depend on us quite a bit in order to determine what is balanced and what isn't, but if we as a community decided to start being purposefully deceitful about the performance of something just because we want to be more powerful in the vidja game, then they won't listen to us anymore. Instead, you will just have to deal with whatever they think is most appropriate given their much smaller data-pool. They'd much rather work from that than the advice of a bunch of self-promoting liars.
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Originally Posted by Cheetatron
you can pretty much guarantee that it won't happen now, discoveries like this need to be kept tight lipped imo Hope the ppm formula doesn't get nerfed cause the op wasn't savy enough to keep quiet
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Would YOU be aware of the P-Shifter proc if somebody else hadn't posted about it? Even if you personally would be, the majority would probably not. There are very few plausible situations in which players are widely aware of something and taking advantage of it, and the devs are totally in the dark for very long. Again, worst case, they would sell an unexpectedly huge number of Performance Shifter procs and start wondering why.|
Originally Posted by Cheetatron
the devs have lots of things to be concerned with and given that the community worked out the HO exploit and all the ways it could be used before the devs were aware of it I can't help but feel unually awesome turns of events can be just as awesome in secret. Synapse being made aware of the P shifter in stamina sweetness sucks; now I won't be able to buy and use it without worrying that it will get nerfed where as before I might have stumbled on to it and enjoyed it like the rest of the ppms.
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And again, things that are broken should be fixed. That's why we refer to them as "broken".
In regards to complaining about pay2win, please these things are like 1-2 bucks. You'll spend 10 bucks on fake clothes, but now that they're selling something meaningful it becomes a Paragon witch hunt? If you don't want to buy these, then fine, don't. Your game experience won't change.
Currently on Virtue:
Jinrazuo - Crab Spider
RWZ All-Pylon Solo Run