Are some things in the game not for bases?
I'd love to know this as well. The floor and hanging cages in Pocket D would be a welcome addition to a room in our villainside base... and would make one of my SG members very... Very... VERY happy... Some of the colored spotlights would be really cool too.
Though I built her a dance cage in both our hero and villain bases, and she loves those as well, it would be nice to just have basic models to work with also.
I, personally, would like to see available Personnel added. NPC contacts (with different models, Arachnos, Nurse, Citizen, Longbow, etc) that can provide services like sell inspirations (even if it's just the same ones the autodoc and tree do) Tailors, difficulty managers (Like the Hero Corps or Fortunatas)... Basically any type of 'store' contact in the game, I'd love to see in the bases. Improving functionality and usefulness in bases is a really good thing. Plus when I'm the only one in the base, it feels really empty... just sayin'
I'd even like to see a few 'roving citizens' (in that they're just there wandering around the base like in missions, around town, in Portal Corps, etc..) NPC's that you could add to show connections to particular groups or just to have technicians and stuff roving around so, like I said before, if you're the only one in the base it doesn't feel empty. Maybe your villain group is heavy into gang activity. Maybe you'd like to have a few Hellions in your employ, or maybe some Skulls. Maybe your heroes work closely with the Midnighters, or the Legacy Chain... something for everyone! Though I could see that being a LOT more difficult, I think it would be neat. Maybe even have them be like Civillian NPC's that hand out interesting, kinda useful, information about the world and your character (or other characters in the SG instead of saying 'name of hero in current zone).
I really hope being able to add and do new things with bases is somewhere in there for the future.
"I play characters. I have to have a very strong visual appearance, backstory, name, etc. to get involved with a character, otherwise I simply won't play it very long. I'm not an RPer by any stretch of the imagination, but character concept is very important for me."- Back Alley Brawler
I couldn't agree more.
I was just talking to someone about this today.
There's a lot of reasons. From what I understand there's some concern about actually adding the items to the editor. Also, some of the objects we've added to the game over the years are kind of like a theme park wild west show...a facade with incomplete surfaces that aren't player facing.
There's a lot of things we want to add to the base editor (furniture from Going Rogue, the aforementioned pinball machines, etc, etc...) and hopefully it's something we can accomplish.
Andy Belford
Community Manager
Paragon Studios
Thanks Zwillinger. That makes some degree of sense (not having a lot of technical background in programming). Hopefully you guys (and gals) can accomplish it.
I also get the 'house of cards' effect. I put a lot of work into our bases, so I really respect that all of you are trying to make sure that effort isn't wasted or lost.
EDIT: Damnit... I try to be better than this, but... FPARN
"I play characters. I have to have a very strong visual appearance, backstory, name, etc. to get involved with a character, otherwise I simply won't play it very long. I'm not an RPer by any stretch of the imagination, but character concept is very important for me."- Back Alley Brawler
I couldn't agree more.
Citizens don't "rove", they follow pre-specified paths laid down by the developers. Adding them to bases would require developing an interface to let players specify those paths, and even then, it doesn't always work out right (see the history plaque near the train station in Kings Row, or the citizens walking through walls in Portal Corps).
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Originally Posted by Lycantropus
Though I could see that being a LOT more difficult, I think it would be neat.
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Still think it would be cool to have in bases, though.
"I play characters. I have to have a very strong visual appearance, backstory, name, etc. to get involved with a character, otherwise I simply won't play it very long. I'm not an RPer by any stretch of the imagination, but character concept is very important for me."- Back Alley Brawler
I couldn't agree more.
At the last Player Summit, I "cornered" Dark Watcher (programming guy) and pointed out to him that the REAL problem with the Base Editor essentially amounts to a case of "Do Not Back Up, Severe Tire Damage" and that until the entire legacy base editing system gets replaced, it's never going to amount to more than it currently does (ie. 6 years old and creaky as all get out). I then pointed out to him that what would be Really Useful is a dual use "Map Editor" which would be cross-compatible with both SG Bases and Mission Architect so as to allow for more broadly defined User Created Environments.
YES ... it would be tremendous undertaking (think easily a year or two once a commitment is made to go ahead) ... but at the same time, the rewards of actually overhauling (and documenting?) the game code that makes these things possible would at the same time be an excellent opportunity to streamline and update Developer Tools for creating environments as well, not just Player Accessible Tools for doing the same thing. My point being that the Developers could "get as much out of" such an effort as the Players, and the end result would be a far more stable, and expansionable part of the game allowing User Created Content.
So if you do it *RIGHT* you achieve the all important Two Birds With One Stone aspect (or even Three, depending on how you tie everything together and code it all on the back end).
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Yea I'm of the mind that a whole new base builder should be made and the old one relegated to maintenance mode. Let the players use the supergroup registrar to choose which system they wanna use for their base (old or new) so that way people who like the old system still have it but a whole new system (with proper documentation and understanding by the current devs) is available that can be expanded upon without the "house of cards" issue.
And honestly? The only way I can see us really getting many of the things requested for bases over the years is for a new builder to be made. So we can have exterior zones and a bunch of virtual "legos" to actually make our base to taste.
Jem - Ill/Rad Controller Lv 50+3 Nic - Mind/Psi Dominator Lv 50+3 Lady Liberation - Invuln/SS Tanker Lv 50+1 Invicitx - Demon/Pain Mastermind Lv 50+1 Celeste - Emp/Arch Defender Lv 50+1 Nightsilver - DB/WP Scrapper Lv 34 Dusk Howl - StJ/Regen Brute Lv 32 Kyriani - Time/Energy Defender Lv 41Psifire - FF/Psi Defender Lv 50
Star Lighter - LB/LA Peacebringer Lv 30
I'm for whatever it takes to add decorative items to bases - like more LIGHTING! - just whatever it takes, make it happen....
I want to be able to put candles on tables, to have windows with scenic vistas or scary eyes peering in, or fireplaces - lit or not - we need beds, we need many more kinds of lighting fixtures that we have.... the base editor is an antiquated, creaky MESS and oh gawd it needs to be addressed yesterday. Jack-o-lanterns.... I need them in the base. We need more chairs! We need more wall-art! We need rugs! What DONT we need, come to think of it. Smaller teleporters! Why does a teleporter take up 100 square feet or whatever?!!
With people buying 78 Superpacks at a time, revenue simply can't be the issue these days. Make it happen already~!
At the last Player Summit, I "cornered" Dark Watcher (programming guy) and pointed out to him that the REAL problem with the Base Editor essentially amounts to a case of "Do Not Back Up, Severe Tire Damage" and that until the entire legacy base editing system gets replaced, it's never going to amount to more than it currently does (ie. 6 years old and creaky as all get out). I then pointed out to him that what would be Really Useful is a dual use "Map Editor" which would be cross-compatible with both SG Bases and Mission Architect so as to allow for more broadly defined User Created Environments.
YES ... it would be tremendous undertaking (think easily a year or two once a commitment is made to go ahead) ... but at the same time, the rewards of actually overhauling (and documenting?) the game code that makes these things possible would at the same time be an excellent opportunity to streamline and update Developer Tools for creating environments as well, not just Player Accessible Tools for doing the same thing. My point being that the Developers could "get as much out of" such an effort as the Players, and the end result would be a far more stable, and expansionable part of the game allowing User Created Content. So if you do it *RIGHT* you achieve the all important Two Birds With One Stone aspect (or even Three, depending on how you tie everything together and code it all on the back end). |
And while a complete overhaul of bases would be great, the return on such an investment makes it highly unattractive. Bases exist to serve three practical purposes: storage, transportation, and (theoretically) content in the form of raids. Everything else is extraneous. There's currently adequate storage for most individual players via character inventory and the vault reserve, and storage can be increased for a price. Transportation is absurdly easy now thanks to the ferry/tram system, Pocket D, Ouroboros, and the other various available teleportation powers. As for raids ... well, the fact that they were never fully online speaks volumes. Additionally, PvP would really need to be balanced before you'd want to activate raiding. And PvP is another legacy system that honestly needs to be completely scrapped and rebuilt from scratch, one that at this point would provide a better return on investment than bases (although possibly still not enough to get it on the schedule at Paragon Studios).
Positron: "There are no bugs [in City of Heroes], just varying degrees of features."
Also, some of the objects we've added to the game over the years are kind of like a theme park wild west show...a facade with incomplete surfaces that aren't player facing.
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Just for the camp factor.
"I saw my advantage and took it. That's what heroes do." - Homer Simpson.
I was just talking to someone about this today.
There's a lot of reasons. From what I understand there's some concern about actually adding the items to the editor. Also, some of the objects we've added to the game over the years are kind of like a theme park wild west show...a facade with incomplete surfaces that aren't player facing. There's a lot of things we want to add to the base editor (furniture from Going Rogue, the aforementioned pinball machines, etc, etc...) and hopefully it's something we can accomplish. |
I know you guys are probably aware of this already but I'll mention this again. Ya'll could make a lot of base builders very happy if the floor tiles could be reskinned (I hope thats the right term) so they have both a top and bottom, instead of only having a graphic on one side.
That alone would save us from having to place hundreds if not thousands of desks, tables, etc. Take that white floor tile next to the safe for example. If it had a graphic on the bottom it would only take 4 of them to make a lowered ceiling/second foor in a 2x2 room.
Another happy happy joy joy item would be the addition of a blank SG symbol in the base editor. A lot of us don't want SG symbols plastered all over the place.
I was just talking to someone about this today.
There's a lot of reasons. From what I understand there's some concern about actually adding the items to the editor. Also, some of the objects we've added to the game over the years are kind of like a theme park wild west show...a facade with incomplete surfaces that aren't player facing. There's a lot of things we want to add to the base editor (furniture from Going Rogue, the aforementioned pinball machines, etc, etc...) and hopefully it's something we can accomplish. |
As for adding things, is it that 'house of cards' description I paraphrased from Positron? That the very coding itself is 'delicate'? I understand the basic terms of hit boxes for where things are, and I wonder if this isn't part of the problem, that hit boxes would have to be created and so on.
For everyone else:
Is this an issue that should get up at say the Player Summit? I can appreciate the amount of work that would go into this to make it work, but I do appreciate what was said about a new system being implemented with the option to use the older editor or a newer one. I don't know how much of a return on investment a new system would be, but Zwill's response seems to indicate wrangling the current base editor is like trying to herd cats. You get nowhere, and the cats create havoc.
I'm not advocating people push for a new base editing system, but it seems to be an either or situation here. Trying to make the old system work tends to break it a lot, and making a new system would be time and resource intensive, though I see a lot of merit in using something akin to the existing Mission Architect design where placement of items exists, however rudimentarily.
Apologies to Zwillinger here; I'm not trying to get bases 'on the agenda', rather more discuss what options are on the table that could be explored for everyone's benefit. I genuinely love what base builders can do, and I take hope from recent developments with character rigs, temp powers and the like. I guess what I'm aiming for is to get bases talked about again with some back and forth to see what can be done rather than wondering what could be done.
I personally love bases whilst never having owned one, and I think anything that can be done to reinvigorate them as social spaces and more importantly creative spaces that compliments the customisation ethic of this game could only be a good thing.
S.
Part of Sister Flame's Clickey-Clack Posse
I was just talking to someone about this today.
There's a lot of reasons. From what I understand there's some concern about actually adding the items to the editor. Also, some of the objects we've added to the game over the years are kind of like a theme park wild west show...a facade with incomplete surfaces that aren't player facing. There's a lot of things we want to add to the base editor (furniture from Going Rogue, the aforementioned pinball machines, etc, etc...) and hopefully it's something we can accomplish. |
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Related to this, I like the way that they've started using some base items on missions maps, like in the new Atlas content and the SSAs - I think that it's a good way to integrate the look of bases into the wider game world.
@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
Thats cool, I wish you guys could find a magic bullet for the bases though. While I like messing with the base editor, I wouldn't mind if you guys scrapped it all together and came up with something completely new that allowed bases to be intergal to the game.
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these would become the new base system, while the old base system could remain for larger SGs.
Personal player housing would give moremplayers a chance to invest in their own living space, rather than being part of an SG that has only 1 or 2 of its memebrs who design the base.
It'd also open up a new cash stream from cosmetic items to enhance the basic player living spaces, and give non-VIPs a purchasable alternative to SGs.
The only major downside could be the drain on server resources, as it'd create a lot of extra instances.
@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
And while a complete overhaul of bases would be great, the return on such an investment makes it highly unattractive. Bases exist to serve three practical purposes: storage, transportation, and (theoretically) content in the form of raids. Everything else is extraneous.
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We have a real opportunity here. It's great to see both dev and player interest in this topic. Now we (devs and players) need to not blow it. If you ask me (and nobody did but I'm going to give my two inf anyway
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One man's terrorist is another man's freedom (or freem?) fighter; just as one man's exploit is another man's feature.
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Or there could just be one instance that's the size of Atlas Park and all these new personal lairs could share the same instance. The base portals would still be used to access your lair, it's just that your lair is more of an apartment. There's 50 other lairs and 50 other players sharing the same instance as you.
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But I agree with other posters, it'd be really great to keep this going ala the interaction that was done for creating a costume set on these forums. I like to think that this can be potentially a brainstorming thread to sort out not only what the standing problems are but what the potential solutions are too. I certainly hope I'm not treading on toes with this, of course.
I love my base building friends to bits and really want to give them the best shot at continuing to wow me.
S.
Part of Sister Flame's Clickey-Clack Posse
We need to know just what we're facing here with the base editor, but we also need to let them know that we're interested in seeing some improvements in the bases (and SGs/VGs in general).
I know I'm not the only one that wants bases to be made Co-Op, and to be able to support teleporters for anywere the group has managed to get a beacon for. I know at least a few people that would like to have Coalitions be Co-Op as well, because not all groups are Black/White morality.
"I do so love taking a nice, well thought out character and putting them through hell. It's like tossing a Faberge Egg onto the stage during a Gallagher concert." - me
@Palador / @Rabid Unicorn
There's no way that the base editor will ever be used by enough people to justify putting in the amount of resources required to get it to where people want it.
It's a legacy system in an 8 year old free to play game with a pretty low user base. I think at this point, especially seeing the population drop that has taken place since the release of newer games, they are (and should be) focusing on adding new content that the majority of the users are going to benefit from.
IMO, the base system will pretty much stay as it is, and that's probably for the best.
Judas_Ace, I sure hope that's not the case. I understand that bases are not a priority feature and really can be a bit of a server resource drain, but I've taken the attitude to CoH lately that this is a 'cottage industry' game.
That's no offence to the professional nature of those who work on it, but we have a small but vocal and strong community. We're not a WoW, we're not a 'big name' game in the numbers sense. But what we are is the leading superhero game, and I still feel that even with two other superhero MMO's out there.
In that position, I feel we should not only lead the pack, but extend the game's unofficial mantra of playing how you want to play into all its aspects. And for many, bases are as much a sense of an identity as anything else. I feel players deserve to have the same kind of options there as they do in the very look of their own character.
If that means or leads to a new system or alternate system for bases, then I see that as a positive that the community would invest in and support rather than be a drain.
S.
Part of Sister Flame's Clickey-Clack Posse
Judas_Ace, I sure hope that's not the case. I understand that bases are not a priority feature and really can be a bit of a server resource drain, but I've taken the attitude to CoH lately that this is a 'cottage industry' game.
That's no offence to the professional nature of those who work on it, but we have a small but vocal and strong community. We're not a WoW, we're not a 'big name' game in the numbers sense. But what we are is the leading superhero game, and I still feel that even with two other superhero MMO's out there. In that position, I feel we should not only lead the pack, but extend the game's unofficial mantra of playing how you want to play into all its aspects. And for many, bases are as much a sense of an identity as anything else. I feel players deserve to have the same kind of options there as they do in the very look of their own character. If that means or leads to a new system or alternate system for bases, then I see that as a positive that the community would invest in and support rather than be a drain. S. |
If you really want to see the SG system improve, the first thing you need to do is convince the devs to turn it from group bases into personal housing. Once everyone can derive the same benefit from it, then it might be on a par with costumes in terms of getting attention from the devs. Until that happens, though, I see no reason for any further expenditure of resources on it, because that ultimately means those resources aren't being spent on things that benefit everyone.
Hi all.
After my little confusion about animations and graphics effects, I was thinking about one of the standout areas in the game that recieves little love (and not because the Devs don't want to, it's more that as I think I can safely paraphrase Positron: 'It's like a house of cards that takes little to crash to the ground') in terms of bases.
The largest factor in why anything with bases is like herding cats is that the original coder for bases is long gone from the game and sorting it out would be a major headache (at least that's my understanding of things).
I'm wondering then: is this why virtually no new decorative items have gone into bases since they were launched? I personally know some amazing base builders that work wonders with the tools and resources at hand, but they and I bemoan the sometimes grinding lag using multiple objects to build say a staircase can take.
From my perspective, I see plenty of tables, chairs, pinball machines, boxes, gurneys, you name it in the game that I think 'well, it's a 3D object, it should be able to go anywhere, right?' But I don't know that for a fact and I wonder if there's some technical hurdle with that which I have no idea about.
I think with newer games featuring base options with animated features but not necessarily the same level of customisation, I'm wondering where the technological gaps are that would either require the whole base building engine to be scrapped to utilise everything, or if there's some spit and chicken-wire way to get things done.
As before, I'd appreciate any and all feedback about this one, because object/world building is something I know very little about from the technical standpoint.
S.
Part of Sister Flame's Clickey-Clack Posse