Quote:
It wasn't "broken", it probably would still better than most melee characters even after the change if I reslotted. But considering the amount of effort and influence I spent on the build, it isn't worth it for me to try and rebuild. Scrappers and brutes in general can't break the game as well as a good defender/mastermind/corrupter/controller, and most defense sets have enough added survivability to make up for the lack of offensive tools. Shields doesn't give enough extra offense for me to justify the weaknesses (unlike fire, which can be made very survivable and is definitely better than shields on tanks and brutes for offense).
|
Originally Posted by Deacon_NA
I too have to laugh at the "oh my SD is broken with having 60% (or whatever it is) DDR instead of 95" comments and leave it at that. |
TW/Elec Optimization
Quote:
No no, I'm not pointing the finger at you saying "You're the snitch!" I just wasn't aware of the issue and did find the values jaw dropping for PBU+Farsight. I'm guessing FF bubbles must produce similarly ridonkulous values, but no one pays attention to FF.
|
Originally Posted by Hopeling
Don't say that, I'll get hate mail. "You got my HOs nerfed!"
I wasn't the first person to discover HOs in power boost, nor the first person to post about it. I got it from another thread some time ago, don't remember who or when. Plus, it wasn't even three weeks between that thread and the change going up on beta. Development turnaround is NOT that fast. Now, if you mean that the issue of HO'ed Power Boosted Farsight in general prompted this change, rather than that thread specifically, yeah, that's possible. |
Global = Hedgefund (or some derivation thereof)
Quote:
If you're willing to post it (or even PM it to me), I'd like to see this supposed "worthless to fix" */SD build you speak of. I had my own open yesterday and flipped a couple things around to take Maneuvers out of the build and add Spring Attack for a bit of fun. Removed Maneuvers, build is now 48/47.5/47.8 M/R/A, 37.7 S/L Resists, and over 2,000 HP and 300% Regen. 70% DDR means I can take at least one debuff and still be at 45%, two and still be "okay", and considering they average 7.5% a piece, and only last ~10/s in the first place... I'm more likely to have the first one wear off before I get hit a second time. If I was really concerned, I could leave Maneuvers in and stay at 51/50/50 and have enough room to take two debuffs; again still "safe.|
Originally Posted by Combat
...considering the amount of effort and influence I spent on the build, it isn't worth it for me to try and rebuild.
|
Shield has +Dam, +HP, Resits, Defense, and a major offensive AoE. This semi-splashes similarities in nearly every other defense-including secondary out there. It doesn't have a heal, but it gets +HP, it doesn't have a supreme amount of "out of the box" defense or resists, but it gets a nice ramp of +Dam and an attack. They say the best defense is a good offense. The defensive line never has to get on the field if the quarterback never drops the ball!* Honestly, without Membranes, this shows just how balanced the set actually is.
I fully understand that the "feeling" is gone, the love for the character shattered. I still think it is unfortunate, though, that you went so far before you had a chance to take off the blinders.
*Please, don't quote "Rules of the Game", I'm just making a light-hearted comparison.
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Warning: crazy space limit reached. Please delete some crazy and try again. |
It's annoying because I have several characters I need to respec and rework now.
I just worked out a new build for my EM/SD, and actually I was able to add even more defense overall, at the expense of a little end recovery. I think I'll be able to live with that. Personally, my EM/SD is designed to kill everything before it really has a chance to debuff me anyway. I don't think it will have a huge affect on me, aside from a lot of work to respec toons.
my lil RWZ Challenge vid
Quote:
Well, removing the enzymes and membranes before they become practically worthless is just common sense. After that, I didn't see any reason for nostalgia to stop me from kiting out my next character. |
Originally Posted by John_Printemps
If you're willing to post it (or even PM it to me), I'd like to see this supposed "worthless to fix" */SD build you speak of. I had my own open yesterday and flipped a couple things around to take Maneuvers out of the build and add Spring Attack for a bit of fun. Removed Maneuvers, build is now 48/47.5/47.8 M/R/A, 37.7 S/L Resists, and over 2,000 HP and 300% Regen. 70% DDR means I can take at least one debuff and still be at 45%, two and still be "okay", and considering they average 7.5% a piece, and only last ~10/s in the first place... I'm more likely to have the first one wear off before I get hit a second time. If I was really concerned, I could leave Maneuvers in and stay at 51/50/50 and have enough room to take two debuffs; again still "safe.
I fully understand that the "feeling" is gone, the love for the character shattered. I still think it is unfortunate, though, that you went so far before you had a chance to take off the blinders. |
The build was pretty simple. A little over 45% defense, perma-hasten, sustainable attack chain, and as many damage procs as I could fit in. I probably could still achieve those goals. But I still don't want to make the effort and spend the money to get a lower performance character, and he definitely would have lowered performance.
In my experience, the most common defense debuffs are around 10%, while many are quite a bit more dangerous than that. For instance, the two common cimeroran sword attacks deal 7% and 9% each, respectively. Tarantula mistresses use an attack that is closer to 20%, and many radiation and peacebringer blasts deal more 10%. To me, that is too great a weakness, especially considering that the my main reason for making this character was because he played at a similar level to most groups, so I could solo the most content.
What this does for me is make me much more apt to use fire as a secondary instead of shield. Burn > Shield Charge, FE + BA > AAO, and Resists + HF + added defense > SD's protection. FA is already a much better set for brutes and arguably tankers, and now I think it is arguable that FA may the be better set for all 3 ATs.
TW/Elec Optimization
Quote:
I really don't see this at all. Not as a general statement.
|
Originally Posted by Combat
FA is already a much better set for brutes and arguably tankers, and now I think it is arguable that FA may the be better set for all 3 ATs.
|
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
It kind of seems like you were tired of the character in the first place and the HO fix occurred coincidentally at precisely the correct time to reinforce that feeling.
Quote:
Ageless?
|
Originally Posted by Combat
...no way to make up for the lost DDR...
|
@Jay Leon Hart
Kerensky: this has nothing to do with underwear
Zwillinger: I put on my robe and wizard hat...
Synapse: I had to resist starting my last post off with "Yo dawg!"
Quote:
Yeah....|
Originally Posted by Deacon_NA
Maybe it's coincidence, but when I read this thread:
http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showthread.php?t=280987 I thought the HO fix would get moved up the bug priority list quite a bit. Maybe it was already a priority, dunno. You could look at the difference between Enzymes and the +Def HOs and say the difference is real but not game breaking, the PBUed values for Farsight shown in the above link are game breaking. |
The Dev's have to realize they've got monumental balance problems due to the way buff/debuff stacks. Hell, the RMT'rs have to drive that home every day.
(For an enlightening look at how serious this is, look at the MARTy values again. Yes, those insanely high limits DO get hit a LOT by the RMT farmbots.)
It's City of Debuffs. That's just a fact.
Maybe this fix is a sign the Dev's are finally going to address the buff/debuff stacking issue?
There is no buff stacking issue. Maybe a handful of posters here think that there is but any hope of diminishing returns being added globally to all powers was dead six to eight years ago. Do you actually think the devs are going to fundamentally change one of the basic principles of the game at this point in its existence or are you trying to conflate the hami-o fix with that?
What PC said. I'll concede there's an issue, but it's baked into the game's assumptions so far at this point that too much content actually assumes it exists. Changing it now would be at least the equivalent of ED all over again in terms of player perception, a lot more work for the devs than ED was, and the game is old. I just don't see the return of effort and lost PR being worth it.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
Quote:
What kind of drugs are you on and where can I get them? Because the set still everything it had before except now you have to be more careful. Fire can get squashed like a bug where as shield has a lot of tools to rely on.
|
Originally Posted by Combat
Yes, they are horrible. They don't give defense bonuses or recharge bonuses in general, and those are the most common build goals. It isn't that 4 slots of luck of the gambler aren't better than 2 enzymes (I usually use 1 +7.5% lotg and an enzyme actually), it's that those 2 slots could better be used other powers, which are usually give better set bonuses.
Doing something like this isn't as simple as changing all my enzymes to LotG: defenses, and even that looks like it would cost half a billion with the rapid inflation they have had in the last few days. I would probably have to invest in either cytoskeletons or more purple IOs, and would certainly have changes elsewhere. If I switched to agility (I have cardiac now), I would have to rework everything to maintain a sustainable attack chain. Then again, I might want to go with barrier over my current rebirth, in order to gain protection against defense debuffs, and... etc. etc. Hours of effort, tons of rethinking, and no way to make up for the lost DDR, even if everything else remains the same. Energy and ice actually have comparable levels of DDR to shield without grant cover, which many view as the most skippable power in the set. Every single set has options for mitigation outside of their defense except SR and SD. Ice has hoarfrost for healing, hibernate as an escape, and energy absorption to gain a little extra defense at will. Energy has energize and energy drain to sap and restore/buff defense. Invuln has good resists and dullpain, and has 50% DDR, which is comparable to shield without GC. Stone of course has granite, and earth's embrance/rooted for regeneration. Willpower has excellent defenses and resists along with its defense. What does shield have? 17% resists to all outside of tough and OwtS, and some minor -damage from AAO. That is basically nothing. On top of that, it is much harder to put defense on a shield user compared to an EA or ice character. With this change, shield drops in my eye down to probably the worst overall set for survivability, or perhaps slightly above /fire for scrappers. Maybe that's where the devs intend for them to be, but I see no reason for me to try to fight the changes with influence in time when I can simply scrap him and make something else that is more survivable and deals more damage. |
Virtue: @Santorican
Dark/Shield Build Thread
Quote:
I know it may sound like nerf-calling for /fire, but really I just find that resistance tends to be better for survivability than defense in today's game and that /fire is better for offense. On Brutes, /fire is by far and away the most common secondary, and there is a reason. It outclassed /shield in every way and when you add defense and recharge becomes very survivable (and SD characters can't use IO sets to make up the difference because of the way those sets work). Tankers have it a little better because they can cap resists while in OwtS, but outside of it they have the same problems; FE is better for damage than AAO by its nature and a base 119 damage power that hits 10 and recharges in 90 seconds isn't as useful as a damage aura and a attack that deal 107 base, hits 5, and recharges in 25 seconds. That, and the difference between resists + HF + added defense and just softcapped defense + resists.|
Originally Posted by UberGuy
I really don't see this at all. Not as a general statement.
|
On scrappers the case is harder to make because every statistic is skewed more towards SD (resists, resist cap, HP, etc. are all lower while AAO is higher). I'd still say that /fire is potentially better than a less consistent /SD, but the difference is arguable.
And yes, I know that diminishing returns should NEVER happen. But still, any combination of 8 defenders, controllers, corrupters, or VEATs is more broken by definition than any melee character can possibly be. Imbalance does exist between melee characters, but in general they will always be less valuable than a buff/debuff character by the rules of the game. My point wasn't that we should fix buff stacking instead of HOs but that sometimes exploits sometimes become features of the game. And fixing this particular imbalance was perhaps the main use for HOs, and only impacts overall gamebalance by nerfing SD slightly.
Oh, and I did forget that Ageless radial gives debuff resistance, but giving up 70 hps for that debuff resistance would be a hard trade to make. Maybe it would be worth it against PPD or other debuff happy critters though.
TW/Elec Optimization
Quote:
What I mean is simple. Invuln, granite, electric, and dark are all solidly ahead of shields for survivability because they have much higher natural resists + healing, and when they are at the softcap they are much more naturally tough (but because they don't rely on defense, they can handle defense debuffs better). /SR gets immunity to resistance debuffs and passive resists, which makes it basically /SD level survivability with higher DDR. Ice and energy can both easily build enough defense to take a few debuffs and get healing and soft-control mitigation. Regeneration is regeneration; it requires a much more active approach but it still can be surprisingly survivable. |
Originally Posted by Santorican
What kind of drugs are you on and where can I get them? Because the set still everything it had before except now you have to be more careful. Fire can get squashed like a bug where as shield has a lot of tools to rely on.
|
None of this really changes with the membrane change, as SD outside of its T9 was still probably intentionally less survivable than those sets. The only difference is that now I would put it below fire, which has higher natural resists and a great heal. Again, this is at the very high end where every one has softcap and a ton of recharge, so that's how I am comparing sets. Before, I would have said that a consistentally being above 45% and having OwtS would be better than the extra resists and healing flame, but now the balance tilts more towards fire in my mind.
I'm done for awhile. After all, I still have to play the game.
TW/Elec Optimization
Quote:
I don't think it's the dumbest thing done to the game, I just think it is one of the dumber "fixes" they have done considering the length of time this has been known and how long it has gone as is, because now a large majority of the player population considers it a mechanic. My original post was some what knee jerk but now that I have thought about it more I still consider this down there with with stupid changes. If we eventually get those extra three slots they have mentioned this won't be that bad, but still...the time sink involved respeccing....is very un-motivating. And yes, I loved enszymes specifically because I could save quite a few slots and put elsewhere to maximize my characters. Not to mention getting to the DDR cap with active defense on the shields characters I have. If anything this will let my TW/Ele scrapper shine brighter comparatively.|
Originally Posted by PleaseRecycle
I don't think lotgs will skyrocket because it seems based on extensive use of the market that most people, myself among them, already use lotgs rather than enzymes. This is because, I suspect, most people don't come up with builds where the best choice they can make is to spend only two slots per toggle and get no bonuses from them while simultaneously overslotting endurance reduction.
GDN was the global defense nerf. Paragonwiki has a page about it. My point was not that that and ED were horrific blights upon the game but that they were handled much more stupidly than this. Here we have an exploit with limited use that has been acknowledged as broken by the devs. Their changing it now, three or four years after they last called attention to it, is the polar opposite of the sweeping, abrupt changes they put through in the first two years of the game. The weird part is that you yourself acknowledge in what I've quoted there that there are plenty of ways to make up for enzymes finally being reined in. Are you sure you want to call this the worst thing that has ever happened to the game? |
I agree how ED was handled was VERY bad. It's timing was fairly horrible and it was a bad time to be playing the game, unless you were absolutely new. A LOT of players that were there at launch were lost because of that and how it was handled.
Also, I still don't understand people's hate of being overpowered in a PVE game. In a game about super heroes. Where we had the main dev do interviews in a cape.
Anyways, I say let it stand and re-do tooltips or something, give HOs some form of value.
On the other hand...
Now that HOs are so eclipsed, by set bonuses or by +5 enhancements... Maybe they'll now feel free to make HOs have other benefits.
An easy one would be to make between 33% and 50% of the enhancement value unmodified by ED restrictions a-la Alpha slot.
Though I'm sure there would be other good perks that could be applied.
The cake is a lie! The cake is a lie!
I just don't see how people can say Cytos are now more worthless than an IO Def/End recipe. According to Mids':
Luck of the Gambler: Defense/Endurance (50)
Defense Buffs: 15.94%
Endurance Reduction: 26.5%
Luck of the Gambler: Defense/Endurance (50 +5)
Defense Enhancement: 19.92%
Endurance Reduction: 33.13%
Cytoskeleton Exposure (50)
Defense Buffs: 20%
Endurance Reduction: 33%
ToHit Buffs: 20%
Even ignoring the third stat of ToHit (which some people don't need obviously) the Cyto has, at minimum, almost 5% more enhancement bonus in both defense AND endurance than the level 50 Def/End enhancement. You have to sink five enhancement boosters into the IO before it's almost equal, and even then it's still missing .08%. Not a huge difference, but my point stands.
For those of us who can't/don't wish to buy Enhancement Boosters and don't need set bonuses from a given power, the HO clearly seems superior to the Def/End IO to me.
Also, let's not forget more exotic combinations of HO's, that I've never seen in IO's. Damage/Mez duration comes to mind. My controllers adore those, and they're a huge help - any extra damage for Containment is always a bonus.
Sorry, I wasn't going to post again, but I was in three teams last night with three different /Shielders and hearing them refuse to shut up about this left me with a bad taste in my mouth. Hami-O's are not obsolete.
Quote:
...|
Originally Posted by Combat
I know it may sound like nerf-calling for /fire, but really I just find that resistance tends to be better for survivability than defense in today's game
|
What? Seriously, what makes you say that? In the case of a scrapper, even resist sets have to be content with 75% mitigation via resists if they can hit the cap at all. With a tank or brute, they are likely to approach 90% mitigation only on fire (for a fire armor toon). A shield toon (at some investment, true) approaches that mitigation regardless of AT via the defense softcap. I do not understand, therefore, how you can make the assertion that resistance sets, under any circumstances, really, somehow offer better mitigation. At the very best, fire offers similar survivability in niche circumstances such as a fire farm.
Quote:
| and that /fire is better for offense. |
Quote:
Is it rational to compare what 8 support characters can do with what a single melee character can do? |
Originally Posted by Combat
And yes, I know that diminishing returns should NEVER happen. But still, any combination of 8 defenders, controllers, corrupters, or VEATs is more broken by definition than any melee character can possibly be.
|
Your basic argument in this thread seems to be that since Shield Defense will no longer be the number one and best possible defensive set, then it therefore has become be the worst set. Doom and gloom! The reasoning just isn't there, however, as you have brushed aside up to half the powers from /SD to try and make your point seem valid when comparing it with other sets.
For years the general consensus on these forums has been, "Why go /SR when you can just exploit /SD and get soft-capped defense with the same DDR plus a whole lot more?". Super Reflexes has been the red-headed stepchild for far too long, mainly due to a well known and long abused exploit.
The only trick /SR has ever really had is not getting hit, so it just makes sense that it should be the only set that can achieve capped DDR without much effort. Shield Defense still has a host of tricks up its sleeve that /SR will never have: higher base hp, passive and (oh snap!) clickable t9 resists to most damage, toggle damage boost and damage reduction for foes, tele-nuke.
Quote:
Actually, if you want ultimate DDR, you get a Wii and Hottest Party 3 |
Originally Posted by kinaki
If you want ultimate DDR, you play SR. If you want to sacrifice DDR for damage you play Shields. If you want to be pretty with still even less DDR, you play EA.
|
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BGB7QYQJOVo
Quote:
Put 20-30 billion into a fire build and the same amount into a /SD build, and the FA build will be tougher. You are comparing SD with defense softcapped to fire with no defense added, and yes, SD ends up on top at that level of investment. But if you add a lot of defense (usually smashing/lethal instead of positional) to fire, it becomes a much tougher set. This is part of the problem IOs have created; resistance sets can add tons of defense but defense sets cannot add similar levels of resistance. Before I would have agreed with you because any defense added to fire would be susceptible to defense debuffs while SD would remain at the softcap, but now that SD takes 5 times as much debuff the advantage is much less. |
Originally Posted by JustBling
...
What? Seriously, what makes you say that? In the case of a scrapper, even resist sets have to be content with 75% mitigation via resists if they can hit the cap at all. With a tank or brute, they are likely to approach 90% mitigation only on fire (for a fire armor toon). A shield toon (at some investment, true) approaches that mitigation regardless of AT via the defense softcap. I do not understand, therefore, how you can make the assertion that resistance sets, under any circumstances, really, somehow offer better mitigation. At the very best, fire offers similar survivability in niche circumstances such as a fire farm. |
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Fugacity
Is it rational to compare what 8 support characters can do with what a single melee character can do?
|
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Fugacity
Your basic argument in this thread seems to be that since Shield Defense will no longer be the number one and best possible defensive set, then it therefore has become be the worst set. Doom and gloom! The reasoning just isn't there, however, as you have brushed aside up to half the powers from /SD to try and make your point seem valid when comparing it with other sets.
|
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Fugacity
For years the general consensus on these forums has been, "Why go /SR when you can just exploit /SD and get soft-capped defense with the same DDR plus a whole lot more?". Super Reflexes has been the red-headed stepchild for far too long, mainly due to a well known and long abused exploit.
The only trick /SR has ever really had is not getting hit, so it just makes sense that it should be the only set that can achieve capped DDR without much effort. Shield Defense still has a host of tricks up its sleeve that /SR will never have: higher base hp, passive and (oh snap!) clickable t9 resists to most damage, toggle damage boost and damage reduction for foes, tele-nuke. |
TW/Elec Optimization
Quote:
Hey now, you're downplaying SR a bit too much here. Don't forget that while the other sets need to pack up on defense bonuses to get better survivability than SR, SR has better recharge and can stock up on damage bonuses instead. Also, SR can use heavy DPS primaries SD can't like Katana, DB, and TW.|
Originally Posted by Combat
I want /SR to do better, but making /SD worse will not change the fact the SR is a one-trick pony with little going for it except how cheap it is to build.
|
Take away AAO saturation(just one target) and a top-end SR build(with a DPS primary i mentioned above) will surpass a top-end SD build in DPS. After this change, SR will be very close to SD's survivability as well.
Mains (Freedom) @Auroxis
Auroxis - Emp/Rad/Power Defender Pylon Video Soloing an AV
Pelvic Thunder - SS/Elec/Mu Brute
Sorajin - Elec/Nin Stalker
Neuropain - Sonic/Mental/Elec Blaster
Quote:
What you're complaining about is the alleged performance of the sets at a level of investment that the vast majority of players will never experience. I'm not even sure if your allegations are accurate, or to what degree fire has "greater survivability". The inability of the devs to balance around such numbers is less an indictment of class balance, and more of a shining example that some people will complain about everything. |
Originally Posted by Combat
Put 20-30 billion into a fire build and the same amount into a /SD build, and the FA build will be tougher. You are comparing SD with defense softcapped to fire with no defense added, and yes, SD ends up on top at that level of investment. But if you add a lot of defense (usually smashing/lethal instead of positional) to fire, it becomes a much tougher set. This is part of the problem IOs have created; resistance sets can add tons of defense but defense sets cannot add similar levels of resistance. Before I would have agreed with you because any defense added to fire would be susceptible to defense debuffs while SD would remain at the softcap, but now that SD takes 5 times as much debuff the advantage is much less.
|
You knew Hami-O's were broken. Your earlier performance as shield was the result of an exploited mechanic. Only now you point out the alleged disparity between shield and other armors.
This isn't about the actual powers or sets at all. It's about you and your anger, which should be more self-directed, as it was you that took advantage of a broken mechanic for however long it was relevant. Any wasted investment in the character that this change "ruins" is your fault.
Maybe you should have been in the forums a few weeks before this change was announced, pointing out that fire is way better than shield at ridiculously high levels of investment. The fact that you weren't doing so makes you appear simply petty.
Edit: To be honest, I'm not sure if my response is "I'm sorry you feel that way" or "cry moar pls" regarding your character.
Quote:
The people calling HOs obsolete in comparason to a def end recipe in the context of a maxed out shield build are probably comparing those HOs to +5 def end IOs.
|
Originally Posted by Kazz
I just don't see how people can say Cytos are now more worthless than an IO Def/End recipe.
|
The cake is a lie! The cake is a lie!
http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showthread.php?t=280987
I thought the HO fix would get moved up the bug priority list quite a bit. Maybe it was already a priority, dunno.
I wasn't the first person to discover HOs in power boost, nor the first person to post about it. I got it from another thread some time ago, don't remember who or when. Plus, it wasn't even three weeks between that thread and the change going up on beta. Development turnaround is NOT that fast.
Now, if you mean that the issue of HO'ed Power Boosted Farsight in general prompted this change, rather than that thread specifically, yeah, that's possible.