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Originally Posted by Combat
Too be honest, calling this an exploit is over-stating it. I used the exploit because...
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Haha to you maybe. I scrapped the character that used it the most (which has paid for my next character), and my current character doesn't use it at all. It is an inconvenience that makes the game less fun and doesn't effect balance much, but I am more concerned that HOs have lost most of their utility because of this. As it stands it is hard for me to justify using HOs in my builds at all because their cost is not even close to their utility. |
Originally Posted by Fugacity
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Perhaps in the future you too will have a "fix" that makes a main character less fun to play without greatly effecting game balance. I'm guessing you are new around here; we don't buff/nerf cyclically to make different classes popular like the competition does, and we don't make a point of laughing at people when their OP characters go down in flames. And SD is hardly OP compared many non-melee classes and for brutes at least is just a poor man's /fire (I have 2 shield characters at level 50, a SS/SD brute and a DM/SD scrapper).
You want to know what real exploits look like? Limitless buff-stacking is a 1000 times more exploitive and imbalancing than these HOs were. Would I laugh at you if the devs tried to fix that and made your characters less fun to play? NO! I'm better than that.
I have a shield user, and shield is much more fun with capped DDR. I also have a level 50 SR brute. This change does not make me want to play my SR character any more than before, but has significantly decreased my desire to completely rebuild a build that cost me 10s of billions to make and hours to plan. I have suggested solutions to the SR/SD imbalance that wouldn't rely on a "fix" to SD, so I am not being a hypocrite.
Welcome to our community, but if something you like is "fixed" like this you shouldn't feel bad when the community has no sympathy for you. This change is much like the Energy melee change to me. It makes the set less fun and nothing else.
TW/Elec Optimization
Not to put words into someone else's mouth but I believe the Nelson meme pic was pointing out the humour in the quote "calling this an exploit is over-stating it. I used the exploit because" as the poster immediately called it an exploit himself after saying that calling it an exploit was overstating it.
Defiant 50�s: Generalissimo, Righteous Bob, Splortch, Brutus Cayuga
Union 50's: Chimera Obscura, Diet Anthracite, Grim Proctologist, Puny Little Minion, Raging Bitumen
In Soviet Russia, mission farm you!
I used a few Membranes on some builds, but this change doesn't royally screw me over, nor does it make me want to play my SD characters less. This situation feels much like the BotZ nerf; we'll change our builds and move on with our lives.
@Demobot
Also on Steam
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One of the truest things I've read here.
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Originally Posted by Airhammer
Love the way when something is in YOUR favor its part of the game mechanic now ( which its not ) and should be left alone but if it works AGAINST you it should be fixed and the devs are lazy and taking too long..
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That was in fact the very nub of my gist.
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Originally Posted by Generalissimo
Not to put words into someone else's mouth but I believe the Nelson meme pic was pointing out the humour in the quote "calling this an exploit is over-stating it. I used the exploit because" as the poster immediately called it an exploit himself after saying that calling it an exploit was overstating it.
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Ah, guess if thats what you meant I can accept it. The forum had eaten that post a couple times, and the original said "Calling this an exploit isn't really true. I used it, but really it I only used those HOs because they were the only ones that had any use to me."|
Originally Posted by Fugacity
That was in fact the very nub of my gist.
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Curse me and my revising mind!
TW/Elec Optimization
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I don't think lotgs will skyrocket because it seems based on extensive use of the market that most people, myself among them, already use lotgs rather than enzymes. This is because, I suspect, most people don't come up with builds where the best choice they can make is to spend only two slots per toggle and get no bonuses from them while simultaneously overslotting endurance reduction.|
Originally Posted by TommyBoyTrD
Not all shield characters, just saying in general. Defenders to stalkers make use of HOs, or enzymes (everyone can take pool powers last I checked). My beef with it is how it has been a part of the game since HOs were even implemented (lol 50%).
Also, if you weren't using enzymes in your top-end defense based characters then your definition of top-end and mine are different. LOTGs and Cytos are going to sky rocket. Also, the enhancement diversification "nerf" became one of the best changes to this game. It was a horrible change when it happened, but it really did end up being one of the best things to happen now with the inclusion of sets. What is GDN? I've been subbed since 2004 and never seen that acronym. Considering that this change affects ALL characters, whereas Regen only affected people who played the melee types, then yes, I consider it much worse. Wait, they DID fix Regen. It's called Willpower. |
GDN was the global defense nerf. Paragonwiki has a page about it. My point was not that that and ED were horrific blights upon the game but that they were handled much more stupidly than this. Here we have an exploit with limited use that has been acknowledged as broken by the devs. Their changing it now, three or four years after they last called attention to it, is the polar opposite of the sweeping, abrupt changes they put through in the first two years of the game.
The weird part is that you yourself acknowledge in what I've quoted there that there are plenty of ways to make up for enzymes finally being reined in. Are you sure you want to call this the worst thing that has ever happened to the game?
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Defense and resist IO sets are horrible, which is why I always try to avoid slotting them except for the uniques. And the LotG: Defense has already shot up drastically. Enzymes allowed builders to avoid putting more than 2 slots in most defense powers, allowing us to focus on areas that give much great band for our buck. If we had a defense/resist purple set, enzymes would never have been needed. |
Originally Posted by PleaseRecycle
I don't think lotgs will skyrocket because it seems based on extensive use of the market that most people, myself among them, already use lotgs rather than enzymes. This is because, I suspect, most people don't come up with builds where the best choice they can make is to spend only two slots per toggle and get no bonuses from them while simultaneously overslotting endurance reduction.
GDN was the global defense nerf. Paragonwiki has a page about it. My point was not that that and ED were horrific blights upon the game but that they were handled much more stupidly than this. Here we have an exploit with limited use that has been acknowledged as broken by the devs. Their changing it now, three or four years after they last called attention to it, is the polar opposite of the sweeping, abrupt changes they put through in the first two years of the game. The weird part is that you yourself acknowledge in what I've quoted there that there are plenty of ways to make up for enzymes finally being reined in. Are you sure you want to call this the worst thing that has ever happened to the game? |
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Originally Posted by Demobot
I used a few Membranes on some builds, but this change doesn't royally screw me over, nor does it make me want to play my SD characters less. This situation feels much like the BotZ nerf; we'll change our builds and move on with our lives.
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Defense debuffs are ridiculously common, and now a single one will double incoming damage and start cascading defense failure. Other defense sets either have enough defense to protect themselves, like ice or energy, or alternate means of protection, like willpower. With this change SD is weakened in a way completely changes the way I would have to play the game and is not something I can build to change. Therefore, I've decided it isn't worth the effort.
TW/Elec Optimization
Lots of melodrama being spewed out in this thread for sure.
The development team and this community deserved better than this from NC Soft. Best wishes on your search.
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I think, yes, that calling shinanigans might be in place at this point. The difference of an Enzyme build versus a full IO build was 1%. For the most part, the Agility Alpha makes up for HO's (and then some) while still maintaining what most players sought (the recharge of Spiritual). In regard to Membranes, so you can't get 98% DDR, 70% isn't all that bad and a hell of a sight better than some secondaries get (which is like, none, actually). |
Originally Posted by Combat
...Therefore, I've decided it isn't worth the effort.
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It definitely comes off like you're /em crai a lot heavier than some. To completely strip and delete a toon over 1%? You're not going to go stand at the front of the forums with a picket-sign screaming about the "1%" are you? You're entitled to your opinion on this, of course, but you might be taking it a liiiiiiiiiittle too harshly.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Warning: crazy space limit reached. Please delete some crazy and try again. |
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Enzymes were just an annoyance, and will just result in me using +5 LotG: defense instead. Membranes are the big nerf. Like I said, the difference between 70% (50% without GC) and 95% DDR isn't tiny. It means any group with defense debuffs will be at least 5 times deadlier. That's an 80% drop in survivability, not a 1%. And shield has none of the tools other defense sets without 95% DDR have except for OwtS. |
Originally Posted by John_Printemps
I think, yes, that calling shinanigans might be in place at this point. The difference of an Enzyme build versus a full IO build was 1%. For the most part, the Agility Alpha makes up for HO's (and then some) while still maintaining what most players sought (the recharge of Spiritual). In regard to Membranes, so you can't get 98% DDR, 70% isn't all that bad and a hell of a sight better than some secondaries get (which is like, none, actually).
It definitely comes off like you're /em crai a lot heavier than some. To completely strip and delete a toon over 1%? You're not going to go stand at the front of the forums with a picket-sign screaming about the "1%" are you? You're entitled to your opinion on this, of course, but you might be taking it a liiiiiiiiiittle too harshly. |
I've played other defense sets to 50, and I know what they have in compensation for a lack DDR. Energy and ice can easily get their defense high enough to blow off a defense debuff or two (and get heals to keep them up if they do get debuffed), and willpower, invulnerability and stone both have amble resists/regeneration to make up for their lack of debuff protection. Shield has nothing except a godmode that will not always be available. Given the commonness of defense debuffs, that means a shield character is now much more susceptible to losing their defenses (even with 70% protection, it would only take a few hits to lose all their defense), and at that point they basically have the defenses of a squishy without epic shields.
I think I have the option to feel strongly about my character. This is the character I have soloed TFs with, done every level 50 storyarc at /x8/AVs, and soloed almost every GM. I invested billions into him. If just enzymes were changed, I would simply change my slotting and perhaps give up some damage procs to maintain 45% to all. But the membrane change means that I cannot never be nearly as strong, and would either have to forgo large amounts of +recharge and damage procs in order to build more defense or have a much larger drop in survivability in order to get a character that cannot achieve what my old character did. And given how nicely my other projects are going, I cannot justify spending billions more and hours rebuilding him because of this change.
TW/Elec Optimization
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I think there's a ton of overly thick drama in this thread, but to call this "horribly broken and wrong" is just as idiotic.|
Originally Posted by Airhammer
Sorry I have no tears when you utilize something you KNOW is horribly broken and WRONG and it gets fixed..
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We were, pretty bluntly, told that doing this was a minor sin that would not be punished, but that our ability to commit it might some day end. That day is now. Those faced with the end shouldn't be wailing in the streets, but no one else really has a place castigating them for doing some great wrong.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
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They're horrible, are they? So 10% regen, 1.13% max hp, 7.5% global recharge and 9% global accuracy along with 55% defense enhancement and 40% endurance enhancement for four slots is objectively worse in all ways than 55% defense enhancement and 66% endurance enhancement for two slots?|
Originally Posted by Combat
Defense and resist IO sets are horrible, which is why I always try to avoid slotting them except for the uniques. And the LotG: Defense has already shot up drastically. Enzymes allowed builders to avoid putting more than 2 slots in most defense powers, allowing us to focus on areas that give much great band for our buck. If we had a defense/resist purple set, enzymes would never have been needed.
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| Well, I was quite fond of my DM/SD, and had spent many, many hours and billions of influence to get a top-level build. I liked how consistent he was; anything without auto-hit endurance drains or +tohit wasn't horribly dangerous. Now I am left with lots of worthless enhancements and a horrible weakness to the most common debuff in the game. I played that character enough without that weakness that forcing him to play with it isn't worth the effort, and neither is spending billions to remake the build (which will still be worse at nearly everything). |
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| Defense debuffs are ridiculously common, and now a single one will double incoming damage and start cascading defense failure. Other defense sets either have enough defense to protect themselves, like ice or energy, or alternate means of protection, like willpower. With this change SD is weakened in a way completely changes the way I would have to play the game and is not something I can build to change. Therefore, I've decided it isn't worth the effort. |
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Yes, they are horrible. They don't give defense bonuses or recharge bonuses in general, and those are the most common build goals. It isn't that 4 slots of luck of the gambler aren't better than 2 enzymes (I usually use 1 +7.5% lotg and an enzyme actually), it's that those 2 slots could better be used other powers, which are usually give better set bonuses. |
Originally Posted by PleaseRecycle
They're horrible, are they? So 10% regen, 1.13% max hp, 7.5% global recharge and 9% global accuracy along with 55% defense enhancement and 40% endurance enhancement for four slots is objectively worse in all ways than 55% defense enhancement and 66% endurance enhancement for two slots?
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Originally Posted by PleaseRecycle
Uhh well there aren't any purple defense sets so I fail to see how you'll have to spend billions to alter your character. You may have to give up a few slots in certain powers to get the same enhancement values in your defensive powers but as I said they'll come with a raft of bonuses you never had before and can take advantage of. It's possible you'll need to be slightly more careful with your endurance management. Woe is you?
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Originally Posted by PleaseRecycle
The list of caveats presented here indicates that you already know the answer to this question, but how many sets do you think there are with better DDR than shield in i22? Surprise, there's one set. How many sets even get close to shield's DDR in i22? Only the one that exceeds it.
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What does shield have? 17% resists to all outside of tough and OwtS, and some minor -damage from AAO. That is basically nothing. On top of that, it is much harder to put defense on a shield user compared to an EA or ice character. With this change, shield drops in my eye down to probably the worst overall set for survivability, or perhaps slightly above /fire for scrappers. Maybe that's where the devs intend for them to be, but I see no reason for me to try to fight the changes with influence in time when I can simply scrap him and make something else that is more survivable and deals more damage.
TW/Elec Optimization
The defense set I didn't name, red fortune, gives both recharge and defense bonuses and is an excellent low budget alternative to luck of the gambler for characters who can afford the slots either because they need the ranged defense or because they have the leeway. This is without even bringing up reactive armor and aegis, sets which can deliver exceptional amounts of defense considering the values you can get, or gift of the ancients and impervium armor which are more esoteric but can be godsends on certain builds. Then again, we aren't talking about certain builds, we appear to be talking about TF soloing shield defense characters.
Obviously "I might want to go with barrier over my current rebirth, in order to gain protection against defense debuffs, and..." is incredibly hyperbolic since we both know that for a set with as much resistance and defense as shield plus fighting has, rebirth is better by leagues. What you might have to do is take two or three lucks in the course of soloing an ITF. Is that really a big deal? You can still use inspirations on a master of! I'm also fairly sure that you enjoy thinking about builds given your posts that I've seen so I don't buy that it's too much trouble, either.
The funny thing is, by far my most defended meleer lately has been EA and it has I believe the standard 51% DDR. You're right, I don't have trouble with defense debuffs on that character, even on ITFs and such. Know what else I've been running lately? Fire armor, dark armor, willpower and regen. If you split all of their DDR between them they wouldn't have enough for the bus ride to Cimerora, yet that has somehow failed to stop me from abusing our distant ancestors' evil cousins with a variety of fighting techniques. In that light I find it hard to believe that a mere 70% DDR is completely insufficient for an effective character.
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Red Fortune has good set bonuses - both defense AND recharge, a lovely combination. The problem with defense/resist sets, though, is that unlike an attack, you don't WANT to put 5-6 slots in most defensive powers. 5 Crushing Impacts or 6 Mako's Bites in an attack is fine, every enhancement gives you something useful, and you'd usually be 5- or 6-slotting an attack anyway. 6 Red Fortunes in a defensive power gives you lots of endredux and recharge enhancement, and most defensive powers don't need or want at least one of those things, plus you'd use 3-4 slots at most if you didn't want a set bonus.
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Originally Posted by PleaseRecycle
The defense set I didn't name, red fortune, gives both recharge and defense bonuses and is an excellent low budget alternative to luck of the gambler for characters who can afford the slots either because they need the ranged defense or because they have the leeway.
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I agree, and I don't use red fortune on melee ATs personally. That doesn't make it a horrible set, however. It's also the only defense or resistance set that really encourages you to six slot it; aegis comes in at five (or three) slots, and the rest give you the good stuff with three or four slots.
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So if you skip a power then Shield's DDR drops to the same level as Energy and Ice, but only if you choose to skip that power?|
Originally Posted by Combat
Energy and ice actually have comparable levels of DDR to shield without grant cover, which many view as the most skippable power in the set.
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Originally Posted by Combat
Every single set has options for mitigation outside of their defense except SR and SD.
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Originally Posted by Combat
Ice has hoarfrost for healing, hibernate as an escape, and energy absorption to gain a little extra defense at will. Energy has energize and energy drain to sap and restore/buff defense. Invuln has good resists and dullpain, and has 50% DDR, which is comparable to shield without GC. Stone of course has granite, and earth's embrance/rooted for regeneration. Willpower has excellent defenses and resists along with its defense.
What does shield have? 17% resists to all outside of tough and OwtS, and some minor -damage from AAO. That is basically nothing. |
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Since Shield is also the strongest set offensively except /fire, I don't see this as an actual balance problem. It is certainly enough to make a character less appealing, though.
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Originally Posted by Combat
With this change, shield drops in my eye down to probably the worst overall set for survivability, or perhaps slightly above /fire for scrappers. Maybe that's where the devs intend for them to be,
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Meh. My shield brute never had more than around high 70s DDR anyway, and while I get the difference numerically, it never felt gimpy. Ever. /SD will be fine.
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Also this.|
Originally Posted by UberGuy
I think there's a ton of overly thick drama in this thread, but to call this "horribly broken and wrong" is just as idiotic.
We were, pretty bluntly, told that doing this was a minor sin that would not be punished, but that our ability to commit it might some day end. That day is now. Those faced with the end shouldn't be wailing in the streets, but no one else really has a place castigating them for doing some great wrong. |
Because o_0 at the rest of this thread!
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Red fortune gives 5% recharge and 2.5% to melee. Those both require significant slot investment, slots better used for other powers as they will both give more needed enhancement values and potentially better values for one or the other, such as purples. Reactive is decent for nonpositional defences, but is pretty crappy for shields, though aegis is decent for AoE defense (though it still uses way to many slots for a defense power). Again, first priority almost always goes to recharge and defense buffs in powers that needs multiple aspects enhanced, and defense and resist sets generally don't qualify. And if you think my scrapper was OP, I will tell you virtually any character could solo that TF with incarnate powers and a similar level of investment. Actually, my character would have considerably more difficulty now than many sets at the same investment level.|
Originally Posted by PleaseRecycle
The defense set I didn't name, red fortune, gives both recharge and defense bonuses and is an excellent low budget alternative to luck of the gambler for characters who can afford the slots either because they need the ranged defense or because they have the leeway. This is without even bringing up reactive armor and aegis, sets which can deliver exceptional amounts of defense considering the values you can get, or gift of the ancients and impervium armor which are more esoteric but can be godsends on certain builds. Then again, we aren't talking about certain builds, we appear to be talking about TF soloing shield defense characters.
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Originally Posted by PleaseRecycle
Obviously "I might want to go with barrier over my current rebirth, in order to gain protection against defense debuffs, and..." is incredibly hyperbolic since we both know that for a set with as much resistance and defense as shield plus fighting has, rebirth is better by leagues. What you might have to do is take two or three lucks in the course of soloing an ITF. Is that really a big deal? You can still use inspirations on a master of! I'm also fairly sure that you enjoy thinking about builds given your posts that I've seen so I don't buy that it's too much trouble, either.
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Originally Posted by PleaseRecycle
The funny thing is, by far my most defended meleer lately has been EA and it has I believe the standard 51% DDR. You're right, I don't have trouble with defense debuffs on that character, even on ITFs and such. Know what else I've been running lately? Fire armor, dark armor, willpower and regen. If you split all of their DDR between them they wouldn't have enough for the bus ride to Cimerora, yet that has somehow failed to stop me from abusing our distant ancestors' evil cousins with a variety of fighting techniques. In that light I find it hard to believe that a mere 70% DDR is completely insufficient for an effective character.
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Again, all of those characters either do not rely on defense or have other means of protection. I mean, if shields gets an additional 20-40% resistance to all resistances, or 100+ hps you may have a point, but as of now it takes only a few sword swings to basically lose my main protection. And resistance sets do not have to worry about incredible amounts of resistance debuffs because very few enemies have them; in contrast almost every enemy group has some manner of defense debuffing.
Shield has roughly the same amount of protection outside of defense as invulnerability has with its passives and tough. Do you consider that sufficient protection?
I don't feel particularly betrayed by this, and maybe it makes sense to make /SD a much less consistent defense set. It has made me lose interest in a character because of the level of effort required to make that character the same, but I have already scrapped him for later projects. However, with this change HOs are even further reduced in usability, and that is concerning for both nostalgia reasons and for game balance reasons.
TW/Elec Optimization
Maybe it's coincidence, but when I read this thread:
http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showthread.php?t=280987
I thought the HO fix would get moved up the bug priority list quite a bit. Maybe it was already a priority, dunno.
You could look at the difference between Enzymes and the +Def HOs and say the difference is real but not game breaking, the PBUed values for Farsight shown in the above link are game breaking.
I too have to laugh at the "oh my SD is broken with having 60% (or whatever it is) DDR instead of 95" comments and leave it at that.
Global = Hedgefund (or some derivation thereof)
If you want ultimate DDR, you play SR. If you want to sacrifice DDR for damage you play Shields. If you want to be pretty with still even less DDR, you play EA.
This was honestly a long time coming. People wanted their cake and to eat it too with max DDR on shields. Just be glad you're not playing a bane. HAH!
If you think this is dumber than the GDN or ED or the many, many nerfings of Regen that were based on fallacious internal data, well... maybe you do play nothing but shield defense characters.
Also, if you weren't using enzymes in your top-end defense based characters then your definition of top-end and mine are different. LOTGs and Cytos are going to sky rocket.
Also, the enhancement diversification "nerf" became one of the best changes to this game. It was a horrible change when it happened, but it really did end up being one of the best things to happen now with the inclusion of sets. What is GDN? I've been subbed since 2004 and never seen that acronym.
Considering that this change affects ALL characters, whereas Regen only affected people who played the melee types, then yes, I consider it much worse. Wait, they DID fix Regen. It's called Willpower.