This isn't just "Enzymes no longer buff defense", for what it's worth. It seems to also be "HOs will no longer enhance things that shouldn't be enhanced". Membranes aren't buffing the defense from my corr's Power Build Up on beta, and once my /shield scrapper transfers I'll check if his Membranes are enhancing Active Defense's DDR if someone hasn't already.
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This could be an unexpected result of the nerf. If that's intended then HO's really lost their glamor.
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Originally Posted by Hopeling
This isn't just "Enzymes no longer buff defense", for what it's worth. It seems to also be "HOs will no longer enhance things that shouldn't be enhanced". Membranes aren't buffing the defense from my corr's Power Build Up on beta, and once my /shield scrapper transfers I'll check if his Membranes are enhancing Active Defense's DDR if someone hasn't already.
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Mains (Freedom) @Auroxis
Auroxis - Emp/Rad/Power Defender Pylon Video Soloing an AV
Pelvic Thunder - SS/Elec/Mu Brute
Sorajin - Elec/Nin Stalker
Neuropain - Sonic/Mental/Elec Blaster
Well the devs did say, a while back, that this was a known issue.
Simply because they didn't (or weren't able to) fix it back then, they pretty much said flat-out that one shouldn't become TOO abusive of this because it'd probably get fixed "eventually".
Well "eventually" is now(ish).
As such, I've deslotted and sold all my enzymes.
Clicking on the linked image above will take you off the City of Heroes site. However, the guides will be linked back here.
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It was always a bug/exploit, just not one they cared enough to punish or fix. I had long since figured they'd never actually fix it, but clearly I was wrong.|
Originally Posted by Auroxis
This could be an unexpected result of the nerf. If that's intended then HO's really lost their glamor.
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Yes, it does make HOs useless for most of the things players currently use them for...
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It's not a nerf, it's a bug fix. Also, it's an expected result. HOs were never intended to work like that, it's just that fixing them wasn't feasible with the original code. (For example, in the code, a defense debuff actually was a defense buff, just a negative one. That's why the code wasn't able to distinguish between the two.)|
Originally Posted by Auroxis
This could be an unexpected result of the nerf. If that's intended then HO's really lost their glamor.
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The developers already stated years ago that we shouldn't expect HOs to stay like that. They just didn't have the technology to fix the problem until now.
10joy
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Oh, they did care. They just weren't able to do anything about it, because of the way the old enhancements were coded.|
Originally Posted by Hopeling
It was always a bug/exploit, just not one they cared enough to punish or fix. I had long since figured they'd never actually fix it, but clearly I was wrong.
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10joy
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Yes, just not enough to punish it nor fix it quickly, using the tools they had at the time, as I said. Eventually, they found a way to fix it that was within their threshold of "we care enough to do this", and now are doing so.|
Originally Posted by Tenjoy
Oh, they did care.
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Edit: To clarify, I agree that it is not their level of care which changed (well, I guess maybe that did too, but probably not a lot), but rather the level of difficulty in fixing it.
What does this mean for Membranes? They'll still buff recharge but not defense?
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They'll still buff defense, but only if it's supposed to be buffable. If you can't slot normal defense enhancements in it, Membranes won't buff it. They'll work fine in Weave, Farsight, or Elude, but will only buff recharge in Active Defense or Power Boost.|
Originally Posted by Granite Agent
What does this mean for Membranes? They'll still buff recharge but not defense?
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I hypothesize that they might half-work the opposite way in something like Mind Link, which can normally be slotted for defense but not recharge, but I have not yet tested that.
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I know the Enzyme nerf(I'm calling it a nerf because it took them so long) was stated as unexpected, but I never read anything about HO's giving otherwise un-enhance-able effects being an unexpected result. Plus, the patch notes state:|
Originally Posted by Tenjoy
It's not a nerf, it's a bug fix. Also, it's an expected result. HOs were never intended to work like that, it's just that fixing them wasn't feasible with the original code. (For example, in the code, a defense debuff actually was a defense buff, just a negative one. That's why the code wasn't able to distinguish between the two.)
The developers already stated years ago that we shouldn't expect HOs to stay like that. They just didn't have the technology to fix the problem until now. 10joy |
"attributes other than those specified by the enhancement"
Which does not mean "attributes other than those specified by the power".
Something here is off, and it's either in the patch notes or the fix.
Mains (Freedom) @Auroxis
Auroxis - Emp/Rad/Power Defender Pylon Video Soloing an AV
Pelvic Thunder - SS/Elec/Mu Brute
Sorajin - Elec/Nin Stalker
Neuropain - Sonic/Mental/Elec Blaster
Is this certain? So active defense is getting gutted and we can't slot it for defense any more??
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Nothing is certain, it's the beta.
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Originally Posted by Granite Agent
Is this certain? So active defense is getting gutted and we can't slot it for defense any more??
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Mains (Freedom) @Auroxis
Auroxis - Emp/Rad/Power Defender Pylon Video Soloing an AV
Pelvic Thunder - SS/Elec/Mu Brute
Sorajin - Elec/Nin Stalker
Neuropain - Sonic/Mental/Elec Blaster
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You can still slot AD for defense but you won't be able to get capped DDR anymore without that nice extra 13% enhancement coming from enzymes. What is going to hurt me the most is that I have two L52+ Enzymes slotted in BA that is going to get hit hard when the changes come. |
Originally Posted by Granite Agent
Is this certain? So active defense is getting gutted and we can't slot it for defense any more??
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Virtue: @Santorican
Dark/Shield Build Thread
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How? If Membranes don't work then Cytos shouldn't work either. And MIDS at least says normal DEF IOs cannot be slotted into AD, only endo or recharge.
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Originally Posted by Santorican
You can still slot AD for defense but you won't be able to get capped DDR anymore without that nice extra 13% enhancement coming from enzymes. What is going to hurt me the most is that I have two L52+ Enzymes slotted in BA that is going to get hit hard when the changes come.
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Well, it was definitely in that context that Castle spoke. For years it's been specifically mentioned in lots of Shield threads that using HOs to enhance the DDR of Active Defense is precisely the sort of unintended thing Castle warned us might get fixed one day.|
Originally Posted by Auroxis
I know the Enzyme nerf(I'm calling it a nerf because it took them so long) was stated as unexpected, but I never read anything about HO's giving otherwise un-enhance-able effects being an unexpected result.
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edited to add: as far as "never read anything," it's on the Paragonwiki HO page in bold:
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_Castle_ once posted about this issue: Slotting enhancements into powers they were not meant to be slottable in is an 'exploit.' We've pretty much firmly established that. The question isn't if something being abused in this manner will be changed, it's a matter of when. To be on the safe side, you should never use a Debuff enhancement to Buff a power and vice versa. |
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Originally Posted by Granite Agent
Is this certain? So active defense is getting gutted
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What it won't have is the same DDR as Super Reflexes but be better in almost every other way on top of that.
If we are to die, let us die like men. -- Patrick Cleburne
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The rule is that they must be loved. --Jayne Fynes-Clinton, Death of an Abandoned Dog
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Yes but what I am trying to clarify -- there does not appear to be any other way to enhance the defense values of AD except by slotting Hami-Os, as AD does not take normal def IOs. Correct? And the slot-Hami-O option is getting taken away by this change, correct? That is, a slotted +def Hami-O in AD will NOT buf def, since AD does not appear to allow def to be buffed by normal IOs. |
Originally Posted by Sailboat
No, Active Defense will still provide decent DDR. Shields as a whole will still be among the best sets for DDR.
What it won't have is the same DDR as Super Reflexes but be better in almost every other way on top of that. |
That's what hopeling said above, and I am trying to confirm it. San's comment above confused me.
I'm busy selling my HOs now before I22 hits. Its a good thing I scrapped my DM/SD already, after achieving all my goals with him, because I don't have any desire to play him after this change.
It will mean that a lot of my builds will get a lot more LotG: Defense and Defense/End instead of an HO though.
Without this change, HOs are basically worthless. I can think of only very few situations where I would use them. I anticipate a drop down to about 4-10 million influence a piece for them.
I'm not angry, but it is a big drop in power level and will require a lot of tweaking for tons of high-end builds and basically eliminates HOs as a viable enhancement or option compared to IOs. I say that if this change goes through and we still want them to be desirable, increase enhancement strength back to what they were at the beginning of the game (50% dam/50% accuracy, for example).
TW/Elec Optimization
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There was never supposed to be a way to enhance the defense values of Active Defense at all. The fact that it doesn't accept defense enhancements illustrates that nicely. It was a completely unintentional side effect of the way Hami-Os were originally coded. |
Originally Posted by Granite Agent
Yes but what I am trying to clarify -- there does not appear to be any other way to enhance the defense values of AD
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I'm sure the developers said "Ah, crap, I was hoping they wouldn't stumble across that" when the first person figured out that Membranes would increase the amount of DDR Active Defense gave you.
I'm also pretty sure that the use of Membranes in that way is one of the things that prompted them to work on this change sooner rather than later. Shield wasn't meant to be superior to SR in every way, and the only reason it had the same DDR is because people were using an exploit to get it.
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Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison See, it's gems like these that make me check Claws' post history every once in a while to make sure I haven't missed anything good lately. |
How unfortunate. I had hoped that the HOs would remain useful content.
But, between this and the ability to +5 purples, HOs may go the way of arena pets.
Prices already are in freefall on Enzymes and Membrances on Live, especially Synthetic versions (which is just stupid as they are the same as normal ones afaik).
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Possibly but I think the difference here is that Active Defense doesn't take any sets just normal IOs and not defense IOs. Therefore slotting defense in there through Hamidon enhancements was an exploit.|
Originally Posted by Hopeling
I hypothesize that they might half-work the opposite way in something like Mind Link, which can normally be slotted for defense but not recharge, but I have not yet tested that.
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Mind Link on the other hand doesn't take recharge but does take sets that include recharge in their components. There a few powers that work like that. Not sure if that was considered an exploit or just a extra benefit of the invention system
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They still will be useful. I feel for anyone using Enzymes and/or bought any. This does is kill the Enzyme's value. This also probably increases Membrane and Cyto's values on the market in the future.
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Originally Posted by all_hell
How unfortunate. I had hoped that the HOs would remain useful content.
But, between this and the ability to +5 purples, HOs may go the way of arena pets. |
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Why do you say that? I personally I sold all my defense HOs already, and see no future use for them in the future. Literally, none. |
Originally Posted by ChaosAngelGeno
They still will be useful. I feel for anyone using Enzymes and/or bought any. This does is kill the Enzyme's value. This also probably increases Membrane and Cyto's values on the market in the future.
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What will, and already has, been boosted is defense IO sets.
Again, HOs only have a future if they are boosted to higher levels of enhancement value. As they are now, they are basically cheap IOs with slightly better enhancement values than non-purples and much harder to obtain. Heck, at this point I wouldn't even be mad if HOs no longer dropped, as I wouldn't use them.
TW/Elec Optimization
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I agree, I have used Hamidon's in my builds for a long time. Any cone AOE benefits much more from slotting in a few of those cheap Dam/Range Hamidons. I use the Dam/Mez in things like Rise of the Phoenix or the ACC/Mez in single target immobilize powers that I have to take but don't want to slot.|
Originally Posted by ChaosAngelGeno
They still will be useful. I feel for anyone using Enzymes and/or bought any. This does is kill the Enzyme's value. This also probably increases Membrane and Cyto's values on the market in the future.
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Not saying they will be as useful as before but they have their place and won't go completely away after they are fixed to work as they always were intended to work.
From i22 patch notes:
I know a lot of min-maxers would not appreciate this change, but maybe the rumored 3 extra slots in the future will ease the pain.
Also, this is beta so everything is subject to change.
Mains (Freedom) @Auroxis
Auroxis - Emp/Rad/Power Defender Pylon Video Soloing an AV
Pelvic Thunder - SS/Elec/Mu Brute
Sorajin - Elec/Nin Stalker
Neuropain - Sonic/Mental/Elec Blaster