The Enzyme Nerf Cometh

Eh. How about giving Super Reflexes Against All Odds? So that it matches Shield for damage output?

Because Shield's alleged survivability was only achieved using an exploit to make it better in every way than SR.

WITH the "nerf," Shields plunges to "very rugged" when softcapped. Sure, it's LESS rugged than SR against SOME enemies -- but it ALWAYS has more hit points and does a ton more damage.

Frankly, if they took away AAO form shields entirely, it would STILL be stronger than SR in some situations, because it has 20% more life.

This change leaves shields monstrously strong -- just not mind-bogglingly strong.

Speaking as someone with a lot of Shields characters, I say, "it's about time."

And if being adjusted relative to other sets makes you angry and makes you lose interest in your characters, stop and think about how SR players have felt since the HO exploit for Shields was discovered. The shoe is simply on the other foot this time.

Absolutely appropriate -- Shields gets MASSIVELY more damage.

Immunity to resistance debuffs? What are you talking about?

Passive resists? Uh, when it's badly hurt -- Shields gets its resists right from the get-go, and applies them to all the damage it takes, not just the last part before defeat.

Basically /SD level survivability? Well, yeah...except for the hit points, resists, knockdown, damage debuff, and much better killing power.

Oh, that's better survivability in every situation except defense debuffs. And against defense debuffs, it has better DDR than Invulnerability -- which can be built to handle defense debuffs just fine.

I've made the point probably 5 times in this thread that SR and SD should not be judged in a vacuum. Yes, SD was better in almost every way. But that isn't a function of SD being overpowered, but instead that SD was designed in a way that matches today's mechanics much better than SR does. Even with this change, shield is arguable better than SR. I do think that SR needs some love, because it currently is way too much of a one-trick pony to compete in today's world. My suggestion was to make evasion a reverse-AAO; giving the strongest damage bonus at 1 enemy, but have it give a defensive buff that scaled upward with more enemies. Rememeber I HAVE a level 50 SR character, and he actually was created before either of my shielders.

Personally, I think shields and willpower are the best designed sets in the game. Both were designed to fit with the modern game, and use multiple ways to gain survivability, and both are adapted to many situations. In contrast, fire and stone are poorly designed, IMO. You can't balance them because they are so niche oriented that they need to be the best at what they do. I think SD and will should be what we aim for balance-wise as opposed to older sets, and recent changes have tried to do that (EA buff for example). This change goes contrary to that. I've accepted the loss of my Shielder, but really I would be okay if HOs became more useful (ie, go back to 50%/50% enhancement values), however as of now this change is solely negative.

I've also made the point that melee in general isn't OP in this game. Anything a melee character can do can be achieved with support sets, and melee only shines in one specific scenario (no temps/insps soloing on high levels of difficulty). So making the case that SD was monstrously overpowered is a case of exaggeration; nothing can approach the OPness of stacked buffs and debuffs.

You stated that shield is now below fire, a bottom tier set (with regard to raw survivability). Um, what changed your mind?

I agree Hami's could use a look at, maybe make them a little more attractive because the supply is more strictly controlled than IO's.

I think you're overstating the "opness" of debuffs from a single individual. Sure debuffers can do extreme things, but these things are no more extreme than those things of which melee is capable.

I feel you're pain (I've played a /regen scrapper since the days when a /regen scrapper could tank Hami, solo) but I have to say, looking at this from the dev's point of view for a moment, they never wanted a single character to be able to do any of those things you listed. You can be proud of having achieved those things, and you can cherish the memories of having done them. But if your character went from being able to do all *that* ... to being average, because they corrected a very old mistake with one enhancement, then I can see why they made the change.

No offense but thats not that big of an accomplishment soloing an MOITF. I soloed a Master of Lord Recluse Strike force on my SS/Fire Brute and I can solo any Giant Monster in the game that I have come across. I can post screenshots from it if you don't believe me.

Congratulations, but this wasn't an ego contest.

But he's going to make it one by $deity.

Serious answer, I'm still not convinced this wasn't just a kneejerk reaction before testing. My highest /Shield is only 24, and I tried her against some Council earlier. She seems just as squishy as before, so... didn't get anything conclusive.

You keep mentioning debuffs. And I personally keep tossing out your exaggerations. No single debuffing class is going to solo as quickly and as safely as a /shield. Stacked debuffs? Like, say, 4 fire/rads? So you want to compete with multiple characters' ability?

My Plant/Storm and Earth/Storm can solo x8... and at about 4x as long per spawn as it takes a /shield to do so. The same for my /Dark. My fire/kin can solo pretty quickly, but one mis-step and I'm dead. You seem to think debuffs are on a pedestal. Well, they are... it's the price those classes pay for not being able to two-shot a spawn like a SS/Shield or Elec/Shield or live through potential mistakes.

70% DDR. WTF, really. All this whining over the second-best DDR available in the game! What I wouldn't give to have HALF that on my new crab! Waaaah! Waaaah! I can't idle in the middle of 30 defdebuffing mobs for all eternity! Cry me a river.

You accomplished these using exploits specifically called out as such by the devs. If there were a "CoH Olympics" you'd have had your medals stripped after failing the contraband substances tests.

Bots/Traps: Can solo any GM or AV in the game in complete safety.

Ill/Rad, Ill/Cold, Ill/anything with a regen debuff: No risk, same deal.

I'm going to stop there, but you are wrong. You assume stacking buffs and debuffs meant that my character was better than multiple support characters, and that is wrong. He isn't as good as ONE. Look up Silverado, and notice what he doesn't use: melee characters. And for good reason; they aren't as good at what he does.

Look in the Rikti Pylon thread. Notice that many of the top times are not held by scrappers, but by controllers, corrupters, and masterminds. And since you have a Crab, I'll just let you know that the fastest time ever was set by Crab, for a total of over 1000 DPS, over 3 times better than the fastest DM/SD with max mobs in AAO and Soul Drain. So don't cry to me about my character being overpowered when I can safely say that he wasn't the best at any single aspect of the game. And remember, every one of the support characters is much more valuable to a team than any melee character.

To be clear, I'm not angry about losing what I liked about my shielder. I can fairly easily replicate everything that he did on another character, though I am said that I will lose the invested time and effort I put into him. What makes me angry is that this change is not positive in any way. At best, it is a QoL nerf. And when developer time is used to negatively impact the playerbase, something is wrong. I would be willing to lose the ability to slot membranes if it meant that HOs were buffed to the point of actual usefulness, but right now it is just a net loss in usability.

Uh...stacked Shields is just as good as stacked debuffs at wasting everything on the screen. You seem to be arguing that one Shield character is eclipsed by several debuffers. Well, yeah. One debuffer is eclipsed by several Shielders.

You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.

There's actually no way to tell whether extreme melee or extreme de/buff builds solo content easier, at least not from the player's end. The devs have access to that kind of actual data, but players do not.

*sarcasm alert*Yeah, let's look on the forums, I'm sure we'll get an adequate sample of what the entire playerbase is doing. *end sarcasm*

These are extreme builds at extreme levels of player skill. At that level, I'd argue that most toons could do what you are proposing they do, melee or support.

Perhaps stacked was not the correct word to use. I meant more like "complimentary", like -resists and -regen and invincible pets on one character. Many sets have access to both -res and -regen or extremely high amounts of one or the other, and those sets can fairly easily eclipse any melee build in solo or team play. Unfortunately, some support sets bring less to the table (FF for example), and like SR aren't adapted to the new style of play: blitzkrieg, tons of stacking buffs, recharge and defense from IOs, and only +dam, -res, and -regen as useful buffs.



We actually do have ways of telling who can solo better. Pure single target DPS is one great way, and that's why we have Pylons. We also do field tests, actually trying to fight high level foes without using inspirations or temps. In both tests, support has shown a greater aptitude because they have more tools. Illusion for example doesn't have to worry about survivability and when coupled with a suitable secondary can greatly affect AV regeneration and improve damage. A shield scrapper on the other hand would have to worry about being to survive the AV, keeping enough enemies nearby to overcome the AV's regeneration, and can only overcome AVs and GMs by throwing enough damage at them; if they can't do enough, they fail.

And many of these characters can do these feats without the same amount of investment. For example, I have soloed AVs and GMs with only SOs, before IOs even existed (right after Dark was buffed on my D3). In fact, Silverado has been soloing these foes for quite a while (I think he started before IOs). For a final example, look at the Solo Everything thread (I think it is on Freedom), where an Elec/Cold controller has tried to solo every soloable content in the game, including TFs, AVs, GMs, etc. Before lore pets, virtually NO melee character could have possibly put out enough DPS to hurt a GM. Even now, many sets are simply incapable of achieving these feats at any level of investment.

And you keep making the point that we shouldn't care because only a minority of players ever reach this level of build. Guess what, it still matters. It shouldn't be a focus of developers, but these changes do impact what a fair number of players do, and shouldn't be ignored just because it takes an extreme amount of effort to reach those levels. Remember, you are a minority of one, and you still want your opinion and viewpoints to be considered. So do players like me, who take enjoyment from planning and achieving goals.

To be clear, it's not a "change", it's an exploit fix. What you liked the most about your shielder was his ability to use a known exploit to become more powerful than he was meant to be in the first place. The devs fixing this exploit does not equate to a "QoL nerf" for anyone but exploiters.

I will ask, how did a crab do it?

Exploit: Make full use of and derive benefit from (a resource): "500 companies sprang up to exploit this new technology".

Yes, I exploited it. That's what min-maxers do, by definition. And you know what? I enjoyed it. *Gasp*

And do you want to know why? Because the build with the exploit was a piece of art to me, like any high-end build. Just enough defense, just enough procs, end sustainability, and the ability to protect himself from his greatest weakness.

An exploit is only evil if it negatively impacts the players. This didn't. Using IOs to reach the soft-cap is much more exploitive than using a bug to gain higher DDR. Being able to keep Hasten permanent and 3 decoys out is much more game-changing. Did the devs intend for virtually any character to get soft-capped defense and high recharge with enough influence? Probably not. Therefore, the usage of those sets in such a manner is just as much an unintended consequence as the HO bug, and more exploitive by the actual definition.

Just because the devs didn't intend something doesn't mean that it can't be good for the game. We tried the "Developer's Rules" way of balancing with Emmert, who knew exactly what he intended (3 minion rule anybody?). Instead of judging something by whether or not the devs intended it, judge by the consequences. This change means that anyone who used an enzyme to eke out a little more defense will lose influence and have to remake their build, and it means that any high-end shielder will have to spend tons of influence in build remake (unless they were already using cytos and didn't use membranes, but I could argue that they weren't truly high-end then). It doesn't make other options better, and it only causes player frustration without positively affecting overall balance.

I would be fine with the change if a few things happened.

1. HOs increased in effectiveness to old levels (50% for class A, 33% for class B?). Personally, I feel that they should be level-less and uncombinable, but I would be fine with the current system if they enhancement values were increased.

2. SR changed to be more competive with Shields. I'd suggest some added damage buffs (though not a copy of AAO) and increases to maxHP.

This would be a positive change, and worthy of developer time. It would give players genuine reasons for picking SR over SD or vice versa, and it wouldn't be a slap in the face to builders. If anything, I would spend hours salivating over how to work in the improved HOs into my builds and would make me feel happy about game balance, despite melee-support discrepancies (which will never truly be fixed without a huge playerbase backlash like the SWG fiasco).

I believe that he hovered about the pylon to protect pets from the AoE, and stacked large amounts of -res on the Pylon. Having 6-8 pets with 2xAssault and lots of -res equals a lot of damage when they focus on a single target. Strategy would be harder on AVs and GMs, who use PBAoEs and move, but would be possible with an immobilize (I've practiced the method on a Crab on test, and it does work).

You've cherry-picked one inapplicable definition of the word in order to justify yourself. This is about "Exploit (online gaming)" which means "you are cheating".

ex·ploit (ksploit, k-sploit)
n.
An act or deed, especially a brilliant or heroic one. See Synonyms at feat1.
tr.v. (k-sploit, ksploit) ex·ploit·ed, ex·ploit·ing, ex·ploits
1. To employ to the greatest possible advantage: exploit one's talents.
2. To make use of selfishly or unethically: a country that exploited peasant labor. See Synonyms at manipulate.
3. To advertise; promote.
[Middle English, from Old French esploit, from Latin explicitum, neuter past participle of explicre, to unfold; see explicate.]
ex·ploita·bili·ty n.
ex·ploita·ble adj.
ex·ploita·tive, ex·ploitive adj.
ex·ploita·tive·ly, ex·ploitive·ly adv.
ex·ploiter n.
The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition copyright ©2000 by Houghton Mifflin Company. Updated in 2009. Published by Houghton Mifflin Company. All rights reserved.
exploit
n [ˈɛksplɔɪt]
a notable deed or feat, esp one that is noble or heroic
vb [ɪkˈsplɔɪt] (tr)
1. to take advantage of (a person, situation, etc.), esp unethically or unjustly for one's own ends
2. to make the best use of to exploit natural resources
[from Old French: accomplishment, from Latin explicitum (something) unfolded, from explicāre to explicate]
exploitable adj
exploitation n
exploitive , exploitative adj

Better?

I have to agree. This bug fix is minor compared to the above changes. I have one or 2 characters it impacts and would prefer to leave it as is, but as nerfs go it is not major.

Yes. I believe this is the part they were after.

Also, that crab time included Lore pets and was circumstantial; on their own the crab only did something lilike 200-250 dps.

Originally Posted by Arcanaville Warning: crazy space limit reached. Please delete some crazy and try again.

To be fair, having full AAO+Soul Drain saturation on a DM/SD can be viewed as circumstantial as well. Meanwhile, SS/FA/Soul brutes have pylon times on par with the DM/SD's, with no saturation dependencies and obviously better AoE. Plus, DM/SD's don't even hold the top scrapper pylon times anymore, i believe Microcosm's DB/Elec/Levi does.

Technically speaking, you can't use a change to HOs as evidence that the devs don't balance around SOs. If they balance around SOs, they would then be less inclined to care as much about radical performance changes that occur in non-SOed builds when a bug is fixed. They would still be inclined to fix a bug regardless.

Or to put it simply, there aren't any SOed balance issues with fixing HOs, by definition.


I have some sympathy for min/maxers that used the HOs in this way and never read the forums or participated in any discussions with any other players aware of the public discussions surrounding the matter, if any such people actually exist, but for the rest of us we were all warned, multiple times, that this behavior was unintended and subject to change without warning. Doing it anyway in the face of such warnings because of an assumption that if enough people do it the devs won't change it is taking and automatically accepting a calculated risk. A calculated risk that in this case was not a good one in the long run. As recently as just over a year ago I publicly stated the odds of this bug being closed within the next two years were about two to three in favor. So my recommendation to other players was don't gamble with what you can't afford to lose.

Min/maxing in an MMO is not for the risk-averse. You are specifically playing in the area of the game most likely to see disruptive changes, and you're supposed to realize that fact when you min/max. The game changes constantly, and many changes alter how min/maxed builds function. There is no more sure thing in an MMO than that yesterdays min/maxed build is tomorrow's broken build.

Even the soft-cap itself was a disruptive min/max change**, and the devs began chipping at it (with things like Praetorian base tohit and increased use of tohit buffs) almost two years ago.


** When it was first introduced, some people complained that under the I7 system while low to moderate defense got stronger, powers like Elude actually got somewhat weaker: in some cases almost *50%* weaker.