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Covered in a villain arc where you find that someone is trying to make their own Shivans.
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Originally Posted by SlickRiptide
Supposedly it's really all about getting hold of the shivan meteors but as far as I can tell it's never explained WHY anyone and everyone up to and including the Praetorians want to have them.
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@bpphantom
The Defenders of Paragon
KGB Special Section 8
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fixt
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Originally Posted by bpphantom
He doesn't trust himself to not make a mistake he'll regret or to investigate objectively. He doesn't want to pull a Tyrant or Reichsman.
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Tyrant did the right thing. People are too stupid to make their own decisions.
@bpphantom
The Defenders of Paragon
KGB Special Section 8
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That's a bogus excuse. If it's "Not. Real. World. Honest." then don't state explicitly that Paragon City is an alternate version of Providence. Make it a completely fictional city in a completely fictional part of the USA.|
Originally Posted by bpphantom
Not. Real. World. Honest.
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If I make a game and create a made-up city called Tillicum and place it between Seattle and Tacoma, stating that it grew up in place of either Seattle or Tacoma, then I can pretty much make up whatever history and geography I want for it, within reason.
If I drop a made up city in place of Seattle and then completely ignore the existence of Lake Washington and completely redraw the coastline of Puget Sound such that surrounding freeways have to be moved and nearby towns are completely obliterated then I'm being careless and lazy, no matter how much I wave my hands and say "Not the real world!"
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Everything in their world has to be 100% accurate to ours? Okay. Tell you what, if your answer to the previous question is 'yes' then why don't you Google Maps me the location of the Well of the Furies?|
Originally Posted by SlickRiptide
Have you actually looked at a map of Providence or of Rhode Island in general?
It's not a question of suspending disbelief. Paragon City literally could not fit into the area in question. It would have taken all of five seconds for the people who originally mapped out the city to see that if they had bothered to do so. When you decide that "my city is an alternate version of this real world city" then the logical thing to do is to figure out how your city is analagous to that real world city, not to just make up whatever geography you want and say "but this is a different world with different geography". Venture is absolutely correct, though I suspect it's less "they didn't do the research" and more that the people who drew up that original map didn't actually care. They just picked Providence because it sounded plausible and ran with it. Trust me on this. I've written fanfic set during the initial Rikti invasion and I tried to figure out how the freeways into and out of Paragon City would map onto the real city of Providence. The geography of Paragon City is not quite completely bogus for a city that supposedly sits where Providence sits in our world. |
Do you see my point? Suspend your disbelief. It's a video game. Do you criticize Halo for making Mombasa over sixty times it's size? Do you scoff at Wolfenstein for portraying the SS Paranormal Division as loaded with tesla coils and radioactive zombies? Do you get upset with Devil May Cry because people can't have white hair and fight demons?
FICTIONAL. WORLD.
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"Dark Armor is a complete waste as a tanking set."
Annnnd you're expecting them, after nearly 8 years, to go in and fix this? Not going to happen. Besides this should be in its own topic, but at this point I want the developers focusing on powers, custimization, and end game content. Remapping the city would take a massive overhaul and would be best for a boxed expansion. But as I stated, it's been eight years, let the developers focus on what really matters to the players. I never paid any attention to the location of Paragon. Besides, as stated, this is Fiction!
Nobody said anything about fixing anything. I'm just agreeing with Venture that they didn't do the research.
As for "Fictional world", then make it a fully fictional setting. That's pretty darn easy. Nobody makes a big deal about Metropolis or Gotham City because those places are entirely fictional. If Metropolis was stated to be an analog of New York City,then people would expect it to resemble New York City.
In the greater scheme of things, it's of no consequence. I don't expect the devs or anyone else to ever really care. Heck, I wouldn't really care if I had not gone through the exercise of trying to map Paragon City to Providence and discovering just how badly the two map to each other; which is to say that they pretty much don't map to each other at all.
It's hilarious that people get all over Longbow's case when Arachnos is as bad or worse and blatantly gets away with stuff. But Longbow does something and it's immediately unforgivable.
Lovely double standard.
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So Longbow is a villain group, then?
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Originally Posted by Issen
It's hilarious that people get all over Longbow's case when Arachnos is as bad or worse and blatantly gets away with stuff. But Longbow does something and it's immediately unforgivable.
Lovely double standard. |
De minimis non curat Lex Luthor.
"The Rogue Islands is a sovereign nation" is like Doctor Doom's diplomatic immunity: it is a silly rationale that makes things go more smoothly for the plot. I can suspend my disbelief if such does not get overused.
"How do you know you are on the side of good?" a Paragon citizen asked him. "How can we even know what is 'good'?"
"The Most High has spoken, even with His own blood," Melancton replied. "Surely we know."
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Aren't you ignoring the fact that Longbow is theoretically a hero organization and therefore held to a higher standard? If they are Ms. Liberty's private army (a nd many of us are of that opinion) then they are mercenaries and should be treated as such rather than as heroes.
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Originally Posted by Issen
It's hilarious that people get all over Longbow's case when Arachnos is as bad or worse and blatantly gets away with stuff. But Longbow does something and it's immediately unforgivable.
Lovely double standard. |
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They're not even 80% heroic, if that's what you're asking. They're technically not sanctioned by anyone (though supplied by NATO) and, according to the official website, they're fighting to control the Isles for the resources found there. We all know how popular actions like that are.|
Originally Posted by Bosstone
So Longbow is a villain group, then?
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Arachnos may be more out-in-the-open about their motives, but for every Arachnos Flyer that lands near a bank there's a politically questionable plan by Longbow to do something less than reputable.
Even better, upon first encountering Longbow, the Praetorian PD's first reaction was "What? They use LETHAL weapons to subdue people?!"
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"Dark Armor is a complete waste as a tanking set."
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That's basically what Bosstone was getting at.
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Originally Posted by Nalrok_AthZim
They're not even 80% heroic, if that's what you're asking. They're technically not sanctioned by anyone (though supplied by NATO) and, according to the official website, they're fighting to control the Isles for the resources found there. We all know how popular actions like that are.
Arachnos may be more out-in-the-open about their motives, but for every Arachnos Flyer that lands near a bank there's a politically questionable plan by Longbow to do something less than reputable. Even better, upon first encountering Longbow, the Praetorian PD's first reaction was "What? They use LETHAL weapons to subdue people?!" |
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Softcapping an Invuln is fantastic. Softcapping a Willpower is amazing. Softcapping SR is kissing your sister.
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Well, in that case, they're considered a Hero group much in the same way Kraft is considered gourmet.
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Originally Posted by Void_Huntress
That's basically what Bosstone was getting at.
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My guides:Dark Melee/Dark Armor/Soul Mastery, Illusion Control/Kinetics/Primal Forces Mastery, Electric Armor
"Dark Armor is a complete waste as a tanking set."
The point is they position themselves as a Hero group, when their actions out them as neutral at best and villainous at worst. Heros are held to different standards (by the audience) than villains. Of course Arachnos "gets a pass" from players: we expect them to rob and destroy and conquer, so it's not surprising when they do. But we then expect Longbow to act in the interests of civilians and law-abiding individuals, so when they don't we (again, as players, it's important to stress) are justified in pointing out the hypocrisy.
De minimis non curat Lex Luthor.
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Why is making up a region of Washington between Seattle and Tacoma ok, but not making up a region of Seattle itself? That line appears purely abitrary.
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Originally Posted by SlickRiptide
That's a bogus excuse. If it's "Not. Real. World. Honest." then don't state explicitly that Paragon City is an alternate version of Providence. Make it a completely fictional city in a completely fictional part of the USA.
If I make a game and create a made-up city called Tillicum and place it between Seattle and Tacoma, stating that it grew up in place of either Seattle or Tacoma, then I can pretty much make up whatever history and geography I want for it, within reason. If I drop a made up city in place of Seattle and then completely ignore the existence of Lake Washington and completely redraw the coastline of Puget Sound such that surrounding freeways have to be moved and nearby towns are completely obliterated then I'm being careless and lazy, no matter how much I wave my hands and say "Not the real world!" |
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I see the differences this way:|
Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Why is making up a region of Washington between Seattle and Tacoma ok, but not making up a region of Seattle itself? That line appears purely abitrary.
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For the case of converting Sea-Tac into a metropolis in its own right with its own name and its own unique history, it's a given that pretty much everything about it is going to be different. There are no huge geographic features to speak of and because the whole thing is made up out of whole cloth I don't really care much about the fact that I might have to re-route a lot of the real-life roads and suburbs and what-not. I might have to relocate Seattle-Tacoma International Airport, but then again, I might just leave it and just rename it Tillicum International Airport.
If I drop in a replacement for Seattle, on the other hand, and I am stating up-front that Tillicum is a version of Seattle that developed along different historical lines, then I am dealing with well-known (To Northwesterners, at any rate) history, freeways, ferry systems, geography like Lake Washington and Puget Sound. I have interesting things to consider like whether "skid row", a term that originated in Seattle, ever was invented or if it was invented differently. I have to consider how nearby (relatively speaking) cities like Portland and Vancouver, BC developed in light of this megalopolis occupying Seattle's position. I might lay out the city in a somewhat different pattern but I wouldn't cut out half of Lake Washington as if it wasn't there, nor would I move Ship Harbor into North Seattle just because I felt like having a harbor there.
If it's a variation, then by definition, some things must be the same or at least have the same origin.
Paragon City has been stated to be a variation of Providence, but the fact is that the geography of the city is nothing like Providence. The people who drew the map of Paragon City did not even pretend to be drawing a map of an alternate Providence.
Which is fine - just don't sell it as an alternate Providence. It's like selling it as an alternate Paris, except, you know it doesn't actually have any of the geographical features of Paris. But that's okay, because "It's. Not. The. Real. World." Right?
There's a real simple difference:
Paris is important.
Providence and Seattle not so much.
Wavicle, Energy/Energy Blaster, dinged 50 in Issue 4, summer of 2005.
@Wavicle, mostly on the Justice server.
I always imagined that in CoH, the state lines were drawn a bit differently, too. And the sea coast isn't exactly the same shape. Close, but different.
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If you feel curious enough, google up a map of Rhode Island and a map of Paragon City and put the one on top of the other. I'd be curious if the result fits your conception of "close but different". It fails mine, but maybe I'm too stringent.
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Originally Posted by Zombie Man
I always imagined that in CoH, the state lines were drawn a bit differently, too. And the sea coast isn't exactly the same shape. Close, but different.
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Ignoring the implied "burn", where do you then draw the line where something is "too important" for "It's. Not. The. Real. World." to apply? Because if there IS a line then it pretty much says that is a bogus excuse, as I've been saying.
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Originally Posted by Wavicle
There's a real simple difference:
Paris is important. Providence and Seattle not so much. |
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This is assuming your own conclusion. The question is why is that more acceptable. The only reason given appears to be because you don't care as much.
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Originally Posted by SlickRiptide
For the case of converting Sea-Tac into a metropolis in its own right with its own name and its own unique history, it's a given that pretty much everything about it is going to be different. There are no huge geographic features to speak of and because the whole thing is made up out of whole cloth I don't really care much about the fact that I might have to re-route a lot of the real-life roads and suburbs and what-not. I might have to relocate Seattle-Tacoma International Airport, but then again, I might just leave it and just rename it Tillicum International Airport.
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Quote:
Fair enough. I value consistency. My mythical conversion of Sea-Tac into Tillicum was stated from the beginning to have no basis in the real world. My conversion of Seattle into Tillicum had an implied basis in the real world by virtue of it being a variation of Seattle.|
Originally Posted by Arcanaville
This is assuming your own conclusion. The question is why is that more acceptable. The only reason given appears to be because you don't care as much.
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When the coastline of Paragon City becomes nonsensical when applied to the real world coastline of Rhode Island in general and of Providence in specific then it violates my sense of consistency. Paragon City has no basis in the real world, despite assertions that it is a variation of a real world place.
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I don't. If they wanted to redraw the map of Paris I would be totally ok with that.|
Originally Posted by SlickRiptide
Ignoring the implied "burn", where do you then draw the line where something is "too important" for "It's. Not. The. Real. World." to apply? Because if there IS a line then it pretty much says that is a bogus excuse, as I've been saying.
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There is no such line. It's not the real world.
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I draw the line at gross physical features like ocean and continent shapes and the number of moons orbiting the earth.
Wavicle, Energy/Energy Blaster, dinged 50 in Issue 4, summer of 2005.
@Wavicle, mostly on the Justice server.
Is he actively attacking Civilians or is he just there laughing at Statesman and the Phalanx?
Likewise, when you play through the new Atlas Park missions, you learn that Arachnos is specifically kidnapping and potentially killing civilians as part of a ploy to take over Paragon City in true moustache-twirling villain fashion.
The newbie-zone Arachnos is based on Saturday-morning cartoons. It doesn't have any sort of basis in real-world consequences of one sovereign nation invading another, especially when the victim is the USA.
Supposedly it's really all about getting hold of the shivan meteors but as far as I can tell it's never explained WHY anyone and everyone up to and including the Praetorians want to have them.