I honestly don't get the hate for States. If it was aimed at Jack 'Statesman' Emmert, then sure. Guy was an idiot from the sounds of it.
But States himself? Eh, sure he's old fashioned and quite black/white cut-glass...but he's lived a long time. Life does that to you when you're old and you've seen as many people as he's probably seen die.
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Originally Posted by Zwillinger
GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.
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Originally Posted by Captain_Photon
NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.
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Read the novels/comics? I kid you not, the dude literally spends more time yelling at Manticore than he does saving people.
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Originally Posted by Techbot Alpha
I honestly don't get the hate for States. If it was aimed at Jack 'Statesman' Emmert, then sure. Guy was an idiot from the sounds of it.
But States himself? Eh, sure he's old fashioned and quite black/white cut-glass...but he's lived a long time. Life does that to you when you're old and you've seen as many people as he's probably seen die. |
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he really wasn't, he made hard decisions, much like posi has had to, and was demonized by those who disagreed with them, but overall he was about standard.
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Originally Posted by Techbot Alpha
I honestly don't get the hate for States. If it was aimed at Jack 'Statesman' Emmert, then sure. Guy was an idiot from the sounds of it.
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And yet, all Manticore does is in the comic antagonize people and get in over his head, when he's not comatose that is. Vanguard, Statesman, Positron, Synapse. Everyone yells at him, but only Statesman is called on it.|
Originally Posted by Nalrok_AthZim
Read the novels/comics? I kid you not, the dude literally spends more time yelling at Manticore than he does saving people.
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The Web of Arachnos novel, Statesman is a gentleman rogue turned hero. Very likeable and interesting protagonist.
The Freedom Phalanx novel, he's acting like everyone else because of the emotion control going on. Oh, and a little thing like watching his wife die slowly may also have contributed to that. Just a teeny bit
By the end, he's got his groove back.
I'm looking at the comics now, all the way back to the first promo comic with Thunder Head, Apex and War Witch, and nobody but Manticore and Prometheus (and a whining Ms. Liberty one issue) thinks poorly of him. At we all know how balanced Prometheus is.
At worst, he's inscrutable; keeping his teammates at arms length because in 70 years a lot of people have come and gone.
In game, he barely speaks, let alone has a personality.
The whole 'Statesman is a jerk' is baseless. People pull an example from the worst week in his life, a few scenes with him dealing with an insubordinate team member and ignore the rest.
Really, players are projecting their feelings about Emmert onto the character and their feelings about player characters being treated as inferior to all NPCs.
EDIT: Oh sorry, forgot. Dark Watcher is mad at Statesman too, for completely irrational reasons like not being able to find him in an infinite number of Earths he might be on when DW was really the only one of the Phalanx who could even travel between dimensions.
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Thanks you cute hunk of metal you.|
Originally Posted by Techbot Alpha
SSA will be on the 17th
From CoH FB;  |
I guess Statesman (much like the other Superd***** who wears red and blue from that other comic universe) is just one of those guys you love to hate. Personally, I dislike those who can only see things in black or white.
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Looking at the comic right now; States gets called out because he kicks Manticore out of the Phalanx for voicing his opinion and suggesting they do something out of the norm.|
Originally Posted by Johnny_Butane
And yet, all Manticore does is in the comic antagonize people and get in over his head, when he's not comatose that is. Vanguard, Statesman, Positron, Synapse. Everyone yells at him, but only Statesman is called on it.
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Originally Posted by Johnny_Butane
In game, he barely speaks, let alone has a personality.
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Originally Posted by Johnny_Butane
The whole 'Statesman is a jerk' is baseless. People pull an example from the worst week in his life, a few scenes with him dealing with an insubordinate team member and ignore the rest.
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B) Welcome to politics in general. Think people will ever forget how Clinton couldn't keep his zipper up?
C) He's a superhero. He's the big cheese superhero at that. It's his job to keep calm and carry on; the times he loses composure reflects on his true colors. If he can't suck it up and be a pillar of strength (instead choosing to be a bullhorn of bad decisions) when things are at they're worst, how can we depend on him?
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Originally Posted by Johnny_Butane
Really, players are projecting their feelings about Emmert onto the character and their feelings about player characters being treated as inferior to all NPCs.
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Originally Posted by Johnny_Butane
EDIT: Oh sorry, forgot. Dark Watcher is mad at Statesman too, for completely irrational reasons like not being able to find him in an infinite number of Earths he might be on when DW was really the only one of the Phalanx who could even travel between dimensions.
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"Dark Armor is a complete waste as a tanking set."
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Originally Posted by rian_frostdrake
he really wasn't, he made hard decisions, much like posi has had to, and was demonized by those who disagreed with them, but overall he was about standard.
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Part of the problem with some of Jacks decisions is the explanation given for them. Me and my friends always joked about Jacks Dual wielded nerfbats "The Vision" and "Balance" and Jack tended to be a bit heavy handed with "Vision" and rarely bothered with "Balance". Then Jack goes and makes changes with Balance in mind and hits way too hard. GDN+ED
And While I agree ED was necessary for the game to grow at the time I thought with GDN already done that it was a bit much, especially considering we were told that such major changes to powers wouldn't be coming again anytime soon. Cause ED was an enhancement change and not a powers one hur dur. While technically true it wasn't presented well.
Overall I think after Jack left the Devs have been better about explaining major changes, and overall the community is very appreciative of that.
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Last time I checked, Posi and the current teams way decisions never consisted of their 'vision' of the game, or 'My way or the highway' like Emmert did. |
Originally Posted by rian_frostdrake
he really wasn't, he made hard decisions, much like posi has had to, and was demonized by those who disagreed with them, but overall he was about standard.
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When we don't like stuff these days, the Devs listen and take feedback and make stuff even more awesome. Jack just laughed and told you to go take a hike, 'cos HE was the boss. lolplayerbase et al.
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Originally Posted by Zwillinger
GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.
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Originally Posted by Captain_Photon
NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.
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You know, all of this illustrates how terrible the writing for the game has gotten. The Devs must think it is wickedly clever and/or dramatic, but it is maddenly inconsistent and lacking in logic.
The Rogue Islands is presented as a sovereign nation, like Latveria, and although it is headed by a villain who sends his uniformed super-powered underlings into the U.S.A. to commit crimes, "there is nothing we can do about it."
The Rogue Islands also have missiles pointed at Paragon City. The U.S.A., of course, is fine with having pip-squeak nations a short distance away point missiles at us that can devastate a U.S. city. Just ask the Cubans. We are totally cool with that.
***SPOILERS****
So when the official U.S. Ambassador to negotiate the missiles issue goes to the Rogue Islands and is "kidnapped" and murdered before you can say "Jack Robinson," (and our contact says she was dead 20 minutes before we even arrive to rescue her) and the missiles are being armed for launch, the U.S.A. is still totally fine with that. Why would we take any official action against the Rogue Islands? It wasn't as though the actual leader *wink-wink* ACTUALLY KNEW *wink-wink* that Marshall Blitz was doing any of that. And since they are a SOVEREIGN NATION, we can't legally do ANYTHING to them.
Meanwhile, Ms. Liberty has been sending super-powered uniformed Longbow folks into the Rogue Islands. Since I have never played City of Villains, I don't know what their exact mission or deeds are, but it seems pretty obvious the Devs are playing along with the party line that their mere presence there is "illegal" and that Ms. Liberty is a such-and-such for sending them.
The very negative depictions of Statesman and Ms. Liberty are at odds with the History of Paragon City backstory feature on the CoH website. There, Statesman is a noble hero who saves the day time and again. The worst I see there is that two Rikti ships crash into the city after he blows through them in the opening minutes of the initial Rikti assault, which he notices and changes his tactics. A bad mistake, but that is about it. Ms. Liberty is chosen by Hero 1 to bear Excalibur until his return. Since he realized he was going on a suicide mission (and purportedly, Lady Jayne was his love interest, so that angle is not there), he was, in effect, entrusting the sword to her. Apparently she had qualities that made her worthy of the honor... but not so's you could tell from the way she acts in the comics and the game.
I agree with those who theorize that the deaths of her mother and Statesman will all make Ms. Liberty conveniently bat-guano crazy and turn her into an overt Vigilante, and she will REALLY go to work, killing everyone and everything she thinks is responsible. Since anti-hero Manticore was the darling of the CoH comics and he was running Wyvern, a vigilante operation if I understand it correctly, I don't see why they have to add Ms. Liberty to the roster of those taking the law into their own hands.
So Statesman is depicted an arrogant dill-weed goody-two-shoes over and over, and he is about to die. Ms. Liberty is an unpleasant, petulant, superhero-princess-mean-girl who will be Going Rogue. Why are we supposed to care about these developments? The Devs are going out of their way to make them creeps nobody would like... is the idea for us to simply shout "Good riddance"?
What lousy writing.
"How do you know you are on the side of good?" a Paragon citizen asked him. "How can we even know what is 'good'?"
"The Most High has spoken, even with His own blood," Melancton replied. "Surely we know."
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That's all fine and dandy for, what, the first few years of having super powers? Powers he got while trying to find a cure for being mustard gassed, remember. |
Originally Posted by Nalrok_AthZim
I'm not doing anything of the sort. I hate Statesman for the same reason I hate Superman: The characters take the Mary Sue power, run with it, and do little to nothing until they get over their own moral conflict. 'Screw all those people who could use saving or reassurance right now, I need to yell at someone/storm around about someone who died.' You're a damn superhero. By virtue of your choice to be one you've sworn to protect the people first and foremost. Grieving comes later if there's a crisis on the line, whether you want it to work that way or not.
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And then you probably get a little jaded as all the years go by. And then you probably just get damn sick of people expecting you to 'man up' and 'take one for the team' and all that. If everyone's relying on you, ALL the time...who do you rely on? When do you get a break?
Asking that of anyone all the time, 24/7 every week, every month, every year? And you thin HE is a jerk? It's called 'being human'. States is still Marcus Cole under the spandex, and he's an old, probably pretty jaded human being at the core. Humans aren't flawless. Period.
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Originally Posted by Zwillinger
GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.
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Originally Posted by Captain_Photon
NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.
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The Praetorian Marcus Cole had a solution for that problem |
Originally Posted by Techbot Alpha
And then you probably just get damn sick of people expecting you to 'man up' and 'take one for the team' and all that.
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@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
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Here's the thing with that, Melancton:|
Originally Posted by Melancton
So when the official U.S. Ambassador to negotiate the missiles issue goes to the Rogue Islands and is "kidnapped" and murdered before you can say "Jack Robinson," (and our contact says she was dead 20 minutes before we even arrive to rescue her) and the missiles are being armed for launch, the U.S.A. is still totally fine with that. Why would we take any official action against the Rogue Islands? It wasn't as though the actual leader *wink-wink* ACTUALLY KNEW *wink-wink* that Marshall Blitz was doing any of that. And since they are a SOVEREIGN NATION, we can't legally do ANYTHING to them. |
So far, the only mention of Arachnos in the SSA's comes with Rogue Arachnos. The official organization, the one headed by Recluse, has done crap-all in the arc. We haven't seen them do anything since... well, since Recluse and his Four showed up in the Galaxy City in-game comic, and even before that they've done nothing interesting.
So no, Arachnos can't be held accountable for Blitz. He's not with Recluse anymore. Do you blame your car dealer when you strip the bolt on your oil pan?
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Originally Posted by Golden Girl
The Praetorian Marcus Cole had a solution for that problem
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Oh crap, I agree with GG. D:
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"Dark Armor is a complete waste as a tanking set."
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If you can call it a solution...
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Originally Posted by Golden Girl
The Praetorian Marcus Cole had a solution for that problem
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Originally Posted by Zwillinger
GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Captain_Photon
NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.
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He's on Recluse's territory, using Recluse's missle facilities, while Recluse has deployed a token force to try and "recapture" the island from him.
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Originally Posted by Nalrok_AthZim
So no, Arachnos can't be held accountable for Blitz. He's not with Recluse anymore.
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@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
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It's one the Primal Marcus Cole has refused - because he's a hero |
Originally Posted by Techbot Alpha
If you can call it a solution...
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@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
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To be fair, in that case, Recluse can't exactly protect Warburg and go "Nope! Sovereign nation! Leave him be!" Basically, Blitz is either acting as a rogue agent (in which case, Blitz would be crushed in Melancton's scenario), or he's a protected official (in which case, the entire Rogue Isles would be crushed).
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Originally Posted by Nalrok_AthZim
So no, Arachnos can't be held accountable for Blitz. He's not with Recluse anymore. Do you blame your car dealer when you strip the bolt on your oil pan?
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Originally Posted by Golden Girl
He's on Recluse's territory, using Recluse's missle facilities, while Recluse has deployed a token force to try and "recapture" the island from him.
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And this force constantly gets interference from Longbow, who can send more troops to Warburg because unlike Recluse they do not have a nation to secure back home.
The Fact that Recluse has troops to recapture the facilities shows that Blitz is independent from Arachnos. After all if Blitz was a part of Arachnos, Aarchnos troops wouldn't need to be in Warburg trying to recapture the facilities from Blitz now would they?
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So there's zero chance that someone like Recluse would put on a show for the international community that he was taking action? |
Originally Posted by DMystic
The Fact that Recluse has troops to recapture the facilities shows that Blitz is independent from Arachnos. After all if Blitz was a part of Arachnos, Aarchnos troops wouldn't need to be in Warburg trying to recapture the facilities from Blitz now would they?
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@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
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Been to Warburg lately (see: since it came out)?
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Originally Posted by Golden Girl
So there's zero chance that someone like Recluse would put on a show for the international community that he was taking action?
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"Dark Armor is a complete waste as a tanking set."
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Can you prove a definite connection between Blitz and Arachnos? have you any evidence to show that Blitz is acting on the orders of Recluse?|
Originally Posted by Golden Girl
So there's zero chance that someone like Recluse would put on a show for the international community that he was taking action?
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What was it you were saying in that other thread.....
"Innocent until proven guilty as any Hero knows"
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Look harder. He suspends Manticore for murdering Protean and then suggesting they lift the Phalanx's "no lethal force" policy to make it OK.|
Originally Posted by Nalrok_AthZim
Looking at the comic right now; States gets called out because he kicks Manticore out of the Phalanx for voicing his opinion and suggesting they do something out of the norm.
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And yes, it was a murder in cold blood. The first two arrows had already disabled Protean. The kill shot was made after he was away from Back Alley Brawler, and it was made with an arrow designed specifically to kill Protean, as opposed to subdue him.
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| I'm not doing anything of the sort. I hate Statesman for the same reason I hate Superman: The characters take the Mary Sue power, run with it, and do little to nothing until they get over their own moral conflict. |
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I used to believe that Marshall Blitz was an Arachnos operative whose "rebellion" was a front for grabbing control of Warburg and generally giving Arachnos some plausible deniability when they wanted it.|
Originally Posted by Golden Girl
Yeah. Right
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Events over the years seem to indicate otherwise, however.
That pompous idiot gets to live for another 2 weeks?? Damn... was soo looking forward to ringing in 2012 with beating his face in...
"Well, there's going to be some light music and a short note of apology saying, 'The universe ended last week, we're really sorry, we don't know what you're doing here, didn't you get the message?'"- Steve Moffat