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Originally Posted by Venture
The fly in the ointment is the map of the Rogue Isles. Quick, what's wrong with this picture?
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Well if Nerva is supposed to be within US waters it's on the wrong side of the map and should be where the "The Rogue Isles" title is.
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I think the real question is: What's Arachnos' excuse for landing their black helicopter AT the Longbow base in Agincourt?|
Originally Posted by AzureSkyCiel
I thought I read something about that, or that Nerva was just contested territory period. Though it does make me wonder: what's Arachnos' excuse for having open bases in Faultline?
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Also, I'm very curious about how Statesman's removal is going to affect things. STF could really have any random NPC giving out the missions, but the LRSF would be a huge difference since you actually fight States.
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For what it's worth, I played the arc red-side and I pulled the trigger on her.
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Originally Posted by Melancton
Of course, I am not too happy that my hero gets to stand around unable to take action while all the murders and such take place, which does not help matters in the enjoyment area.
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@bpphantom
The Defenders of Paragon
KGB Special Section 8
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Considering that's all of ONE source that contradicts the game, and that map isn't referenced at ALL anymore (as far as I'm aware), I'd say the map was a screw-up and was phased out with most of the population unaware of the mistake. Besides, it's easy to believe there was a miscommunication between story and art that was just never cleaned up. But you'll use any excuse to prove the devs wrong, eh?
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Originally Posted by Venture
The fly in the ointment is the map of the Rogue Isles. Quick, what's wrong with this picture?
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"And of course, Steven Jay Blum is in it...He's the Sam Jackson of anime." -AmuroNT1
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Open your in-game map and change from "zone" to "city"...|
Originally Posted by Yamato_Iouko
Considering that's all of ONE source that contradicts the game, and that map isn't referenced at ALL anymore (as far as I'm aware), I'd say the map was a screw-up and was phased out with most of the population unaware of the mistake. Besides, it's easy to believe there was a miscommunication between story and art that was just never cleaned up. But you'll use any excuse to prove the devs wrong, eh?
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No, I mean it. Try it. I'm pretty sure it's the same map, but am not in front of the game to see for myself. However, don't be surprised if it is.
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Different dimension. There's nothing saying she can't send her group into a different dimension.|
Originally Posted by Ogi
When has she sent heroes over?
When you have Praetorians going "Damn, these dudes are hardcore, arresting people with flamethrowers." and having a legitimate point your organization has issues. |
Flamethrowers...when did those become worse than the many Fire Blasting/Fire Melee types that seem to be a common power amongst hero/villains?
Not to mention it's already said the enemies (on either side) are able to take the beating one can dish out and still walk away.
At least, of equal level, I don't see those flamethrowers 1 shotting anyone.
BrandX Future Staff Fighter
The BrandX Collection
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I used to worry about the whole Mary Sue concept when it came to my characters, then I read this and couldn't help but agree.|
Originally Posted by Nalrok_AthZim
I'm not doing anything of the sort. I hate Statesman for the same reason I hate Superman: The characters take the Mary Sue power, run with it, and do little to nothing until they get over their own moral conflict. 'Screw all those people who could use saving or reassurance right now, I need to yell at someone/storm around about someone who died.' You're a damn superhero. By virtue of your choice to be one you've sworn to protect the people first and foremost. Grieving comes later if there's a crisis on the line, whether you want it to work that way or not.
Might wanna read into that a little more. |
And then as a player on Virtue, I've heard people talk about Mary Sues, only to find they say they're against the concept, but damn if they didn't roll up what they say they're against all the time.
BrandX Future Staff Fighter
The BrandX Collection
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Never going to happen, Slick. You are talking like a single Rikti blade-slice could breach Positron's armor and cause an anti-matter explosion. Oh, wait... |
Originally Posted by SlickRiptide
After reading the chapter three and four spoilers I don't expect to be subscribing in March or any other time just to have access to the story.
The silly thing is that we're "shaking up" the establishment so that we can delete Jack Emmert's Mary Sue and replace him with Matt's Mary Sue. Clearly, that's a better situation than what we have now. (Do I need to put sarcasm tags in?) What happens the day that Matt gets kicked upstairs or leaves Paragon Studios? Do we start shouting for Positron's blood? I suppose that's when we REALLY shake up the status quo and use Positron's power to blow him up and the entire city along with him. There won't be anyone more powerful or more important than my character after that, and the world will be a better place for it! |
Well, no worries, apparently it would not level the entire city, it would just vaporize Posi again, but as long as the Dark Watcher is around, he can fix things faster than you can say "Padme Hung."
As I mull it over, I cannot come up with a better reason to kill Statesman, keep him dead and remove him from the game than your theory that his association with Jack is odious to the folks who have the power to make it happen.
The problem is, they have continually depicted Statesman as a self-righteous dill-weed, utterly ignoring the possibilities Troy Hickman introduced, so are we supposed to be sad about it? Perhaps that was part of the plan as well.
There is a tremendous disconnect between the History of Paragon City backstory materials (and perhaps the novels, which I have not read) and the portrayal of Statesman by Fish and other subsequent writers. The Statesman I learned about in the backstory does not deserve the short shrift he is getting and I am not happy to see him depart. Dill-weed Statesman, who was a straw man set up to be knocked down by the "edgy" story-line, I will not miss.
"How do you know you are on the side of good?" a Paragon citizen asked him. "How can we even know what is 'good'?"
"The Most High has spoken, even with His own blood," Melancton replied. "Surely we know."
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Except that Mary Sue isn't limited to female characters, it can present as either gender. Regardless, if a Mary Sue is written well and complex, it can still be a great character (evidenced by Batman)...though by that point it's hardly a Mary Sue anymore. Most people when referring to Mary Sue, usually infer that the character has no mental issues and is just perfect, when there's no reason to expect them to be. Honestly, unless a character is CHEATING in CoH and never takes defeat or even damage, the character's not a Mary Sue. :P (...unless the player insists those defeats aren't real or something, and then that's just...lame.)
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Originally Posted by BrandX
I used to worry about the whole Mary Sue concept when it came to my characters, then I read this and couldn't help but agree.
And then as a player on Virtue, I've heard people talk about Mary Sues, only to find they say they're against the concept, but damn if they didn't roll up what they say they're against all the time. |
"And of course, Steven Jay Blum is in it...He's the Sam Jackson of anime." -AmuroNT1
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So, that's okay, but the Longbow taking on villains who do just that...isn't?
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Originally Posted by Nalrok_AthZim
Well we all know how well Batman keeps the murder rate in Gotham down by ki--
Oh wait. I'm sorry, but if a villain continuously goes off and does terrible horrible things after you defeat and incarcerate them for a period of time, maybe it's about time you solved the problem permanently. I don't know about you but if a guy has a track record of stabbing people in the throat after 'rehabilitation' I'd have put him down by murder number five. |
BrandX Future Staff Fighter
The BrandX Collection
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So, Statesman with his own mental issues, isn't a Mary Sue. As everyone's seemed to agree that having lived so long, seen so many die, has effected his mental state.|
Originally Posted by Yamato_Iouko
Except that Mary Sue isn't limited to female characters, it can present as either gender. Regardless, if a Mary Sue is written well and complex, it can still be a great character (evidenced by Batman)...though by that point it's hardly a Mary Sue anymore. Most people when referring to Mary Sue, usually infer that the character has no mental issues and is just perfect, when there's no reason to expect them to be. Honestly, unless a character is CHEATING in CoH and never takes defeat or even damage, the character's not a Mary Sue. :P (...unless the player insists those defeats aren't real or something, and then that's just...lame.)
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Not to mention Statesman himself has made mistakes, or he wouldn't have adjusted his tactics.
BrandX Future Staff Fighter
The BrandX Collection
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Statesman isn't beloved by ALL. He's called on his choices which are less than stellar by his teammates. The man makes mistakes and isn't infallible, which is why he (and Superman, for the record) are NOT Marty Stu characters. Having unlimited power alone doesn't make a character a Mary Sue, it just makes them more complicated to write well.|
Originally Posted by BrandX
So, Statesman with his own mental issues, isn't a Mary Sue. As everyone's seemed to agree that having lived so long, seen so many die, has effected his mental state.
Not to mention Statesman himself has made mistakes, or he wouldn't have adjusted his tactics. |
If you want a good example of a Mary Sue, look at Bella from Twilight. It's the fact that she gets away with everything and no one even calls her on her actions that makes her such. Fallibility is a major contributor towards or away from Sue-dom.
"And of course, Steven Jay Blum is in it...He's the Sam Jackson of anime." -AmuroNT1
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I'm not the one calling him a mary sue |
Originally Posted by Yamato_Iouko
Statesman isn't beloved by ALL. He's called on his choices which are less than stellar by his teammates. The man makes mistakes and isn't infallible, which is why he (and Superman, for the record) are NOT Marty Stu characters. Having unlimited power alone doesn't make a character a Mary Sue, it just makes them more complicated to write well.
If you want a good example of a Mary Sue, look at Bella from Twilight. It's the fact that she gets away with everything and no one even calls her on her actions that makes her such. Fallibility is a major contributor towards or away from Sue-dom. |
BrandX Future Staff Fighter
The BrandX Collection
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Oh, my reply was a reply to the general thread as well as to you, sorry. ^.^;;
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Originally Posted by BrandX
I'm not the one calling him a mary sue
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"And of course, Steven Jay Blum is in it...He's the Sam Jackson of anime." -AmuroNT1
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As has been pointed out, the map is in-game and has been since i6. The mistake was pointed out back then, too, by lots of people.| Considering that's all of ONE source that contradicts the game, and that map isn't referenced at ALL anymore (as far as I'm aware), I'd say the map was a screw-up and was phased out with most of the population unaware of the mistake. Besides, it's easy to believe there was a miscommunication between story and art that was just never cleaned up. |
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| But you'll use any excuse to prove the devs wrong, eh? |
Current Blog Post: "Why I am an Atheist..."
"And I say now these kittens, they do not get trained/As we did in the days when Victoria reigned!" -- T. S. Eliot, "Gus, the Theatre Cat"
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Could you then explain the villains' plan to me, then? |
Originally Posted by bpphantom
For what it's worth, I played the arc red-side and I pulled the trigger on her.
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***SPOILERS****
Other than "We wanted to do an arc with multiple missions," the sequence and venue of the actions make no sense at this juncture.
If Alexis needed to be killed (for whatever motivation, but likely to make Ms. Liberty go rogue and Statesman commit some grave error "due to grief"), then why did it need to be in Warburg? One would think that if the "extra protection" she got going into a hostile area was so easily neutralized, (see: Manticore's babbled excuses) then one would believe they could have offed her anywhere. But let's assume for a moment that Warburg somehow added some advantages to the villains.
The whole bit about the missiles and "stopping them" was really just attached to the story with a few nails. If Malaise was supposed to get captured, it sure would have complicated things if a massive US nuclear retaliatory strike hit Warburg with him still there. The possibility of the missiles launching adds no benefit that I can see to the overall villain goals--- why risk it?
Why have Alexis appear alive to our character when it is revealed "she had been dead for at least twenty minutes" before we arrived? We would have captured Malaise either way. If we were inclined to kill him for her murder, we would have done so the moment that we realized she was dead and LONG before we took him in. So why kill Alexis and then have her appear to be alive and well and merely captured?
Why does Malaise have to be a prisoner to get close to Sister Psyche? She worked with him in the past, etc., etc. If firing up the Dirge of Chaos was all the advantage he needed, he presumably could have called her up, said "I'm having internal conflict over being a villain again," set up an appointment and gotten near her that way. Fire up the Dirge, prang SP mentally as he did, he still gets his "I am a great artist" bona fides, etc., etc. and the whole Warburg gambit is avoided.
yeah, yeah, yeah, Manticore and Ms. Liberty are all honked off, we had to fight him, we will probably have to fight her, blah blah blah. Again, banged onto the story with some nails to give us something to do and appear really edgy by fighting other heroes.
"Don't leave!" Master Yoda warns. If Luke goes to help his friends, he will sacrifice EVERYTHING THEY HAVE FOUGHT FOR! Luke is not strong enough to face Vader because the training is not complete! Luke leaves, gets his butt kicked and... the Rebels still win. So much for sacrificing everything. Oh, and when Luke returns to complete his training? Yoda tells him his training ACTUALLY IS complete, and the only thing he lacks is that... he must face Vader.
The SSAs are making about as much sense as Yoda did.
"How do you know you are on the side of good?" a Paragon citizen asked him. "How can we even know what is 'good'?"
"The Most High has spoken, even with His own blood," Melancton replied. "Surely we know."
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Setting aside the fact that the US coast isn't a straight line and I'm sure there's a way to jigsaw that map so it works, that comes off as an immensely egotistical thing to say, especially since some of us think your 'corrections' are a load and that the writing staff is a lot better than you give credit.
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Originally Posted by Venture
If they weren't wrong so often I wouldn't have to correct them so much.
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"And of course, Steven Jay Blum is in it...He's the Sam Jackson of anime." -AmuroNT1
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The pillar can't steal a person's powers permanently if they're still alive. The first SSA showed that.
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Originally Posted by Melancton
If Alexis needed to be killed (for whatever motivation,
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"And of course, Steven Jay Blum is in it...He's the Sam Jackson of anime." -AmuroNT1
In my opinion...
I have to ask as to 'why' they are getting rid of the signature character. The character they have so many images and who is the 'face' of the game.
In the old days past.. he was the face we all saw on the boxes etc.
In the redesign for 'free to play' he is shown again, he even right now still shows at the top of this web page.
So, why are they choosing to get rid of him? For marketing? To say yeah we did it, we are 'drastic' about our game changes now?
Do they want to hit a tag line.. "YOU are the next legend!"???
Will they just turn around at a later time and bring him back?
Why is the company getting rid of their Marketing Face?
Irregardless of the story of 'how' he goes. Which in my opinion is not a very good story at all. To me, it leaves far too many holes in it.
The fact that no one can find him right now? Please, tell me that all the tech, all the psionics, all the magic out there and they can't find Statesman??
The idea that they have now figured a way to kill him when we have seen him survive so much before?
Then the story itself. Hmmm they apparently weren't able to put in a cut scene, a few comics panels... nothing and I mean absolutely nothing other than a few lines of text about the great loss of Miss Liberty. You would think the daughter of the most popular (in game lore) hero would have rated something more than a few lines of text. From the players perspective, it was glossed over. In the real world, a lackluster actress can get arrested for a minor offense and the media will bombard us with every detail of her life and we are forced to endure photo and story after photo and story for months at times. Yet, the death of a former heroine, one who was struck down as she was would have been considered high profile and the developers didn't put in anything other than those few lines of text we got. Wow... just .. wow.
Positron now says that removing the character from the game will have to be a full release because of 'elements of the game per say'.
SO, we are to be fed this line of story of him dying, but there is no real game change until later???
Why was this SSA not pushed back until it could be done during this 'later game release'??
DC killed Superman and they actually stopped having him be around for a while, and it was immediate. One issue he is alive and around, the next he is not.
I understand that a game takes a lot of planning, work, etc to change.
So why wasn't this planned and executed better? Why wasn't it planned to execute at the same time?? In my opinion, yet another example of a bad choice. Much as the same choice to remove the Statesman character from the game.
For as much as people like or dislike Statesman character, whether that is a like or dislike for the character or the former developer who created and installed him into the game.
All changes to the character should have been made not from the small percentage of people who use the forums, I certainly hope that they didnt make these changes because of what the forum population has said over the years.
These changes were made from the current team and I know we will probably never know 'why' those changes were made.
- Were they made because of a time limit? That after so long the Statesman name and images revert back to someone else's ownership?
- Were they made because they wanted the shock effect similar to what DC did?
- Were they made in some attempt to somehow place prominence on our characters? How is that even possible in a game where thousands play and the rest of the Freedom Phalanx is still around? How do they justify trying to tell us that we will be the prominent one when the rest of the Phalanx is still around?
Far too many unanswered and unanswerable questions remain to make these changes ..... palatable.
This is of course just my opinion and I know it matters for naught.
Member of Team Awesome���
Justice Server
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Did Alexis have any super powers to steal? It appears to be a gray area; she may have retired because she no longer had powers. I have not seen a definitive answer there, and there have been claims either way. I don't know the answer.|
Originally Posted by Yamato_Iouko
The pillar can't steal a person's powers permanently if they're still alive. The first SSA showed that.
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If she had powers, I sure did not see her use any in her defense. Maybe I missed it, but I do not recall seeing any.
"How do you know you are on the side of good?" a Paragon citizen asked him. "How can we even know what is 'good'?"
"The Most High has spoken, even with His own blood," Melancton replied. "Surely we know."
*Spoilery stuff...
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Alexis' death served two purposes. One, as has been noted, was psychological warfare against the Freedom Phalanx. Get Ms. Liberty, Statesman, and Manticore all fighting with each other. The other reason, revealed only in the villain arcs, was because Wade intended to carry out a ritual that would get him some Statesman-empowered blood (apparently not realizing that it can be purchased at the Black Market for a fairly insignificant amount of influence).|
Originally Posted by Melancton
If Alexis needed to be killed (for whatever motivation, but likely to make Ms. Liberty go rogue and Statesman commit some grave error "due to grief"), then why did it need to be in Warburg? One would think that if the "extra protection" she got going into a hostile area was so easily neutralized, (see: Manticore's babbled excuses) then one would believe they could have offed her anywhere. But let's assume for a moment that Warburg somehow added some advantages to the villains.
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Warburg was, essentially, a convenient way to get Alexis to the Isles and buy Wade time for the ritual. He could have killed her by sneaking an assassin into Paragon, sure, but he couldn't have drawn the power he wanted.
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| The whole bit about the missiles and "stopping them" was really just attached to the story with a few nails. If Malaise was supposed to get captured, it sure would have complicated things if a massive US nuclear retaliatory strike hit Warburg with him still there. The possibility of the missiles launching adds no benefit that I can see to the overall villain goals--- why risk it? |
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| Why have Alexis appear alive to our character when it is revealed "she had been dead for at least twenty minutes" before we arrived? We would have captured Malaise either way. If we were inclined to kill him for her murder, we would have done so the moment that we realized she was dead and LONG before we took him in. So why kill Alexis and then have her appear to be alive and well and merely captured? |
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| Why does Malaise have to be a prisoner to get close to Sister Psyche? She worked with him in the past, etc., etc. If firing up the Dirge of Chaos was all the advantage he needed, he presumably could have called her up, said "I'm having internal conflict over being a villain again," set up an appointment and gotten near her that way. Fire up the Dirge, prang SP mentally as he did, he still gets his "I am a great artist" bona fides, etc., etc. and the whole Warburg gambit is avoided. |
I hope he really dies and dont comeback at the end of SSA7 all well and nice.
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Since she's Statesman's daughter, she latently had his potential, essentially. However, even that is more or less just a means to Wade's end.
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Originally Posted by Melancton
Did Alexis have any super powers to steal? It appears to be a gray area; she may have retired because she no longer had powers. I have not seen a definitive answer there, and there have been claims either way. I don't know the answer.
If she had powers, I sure did not see her use any in her defense. Maybe I missed it, but I do not recall seeing any. |
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Maybe he entered the Mutara Nebula. |
Originally Posted by Cosmic_Herald
To me, it leaves far too many holes in it.
The fact that no one can find him right now? Please, tell me that all the tech, all the psionics, all the magic out there and they can't find Statesman?? |
Excellent question.
Purportedly, he is "flying around to clear his head" as opposed to wreaking havoc on the perps who offed his daughter, or even investigating it.
As you say, a lot of holes.
"How do you know you are on the side of good?" a Paragon citizen asked him. "How can we even know what is 'good'?"
"The Most High has spoken, even with His own blood," Melancton replied. "Surely we know."
After reading the chapter three and four spoilers I don't expect to be subscribing in March or any other time just to have access to the story.
The silly thing is that we're "shaking up" the establishment so that we can delete Jack Emmert's Mary Sue and replace him with Matt's Mary Sue. Clearly, that's a better situation than what we have now. (Do I need to put sarcasm tags in?)
What happens the day that Matt gets kicked upstairs or leaves Paragon Studios? Do we start shouting for Positron's blood? I suppose that's when we REALLY shake up the status quo and use Positron's power to blow him up and the entire city along with him. There won't be anyone more powerful or more important than my character after that, and the world will be a better place for it!