Death of a Statesman

Sorry, but this made me laugh too hard.

Eh? What's funny? The fact that you focused on "wrote fanfic" instead of the subject of the paragraph, which was "attempted to fit Paragon City into a map of Rhode Island"? Does it really matter why I was doing that or are you seriously suggesting that the point of my post was "I wrote some fanfic so that makes me an expert"?

You could fly to the moon with the amount of hand-waving that the writing in CoH has been requiring for quite a while.

Where have you gone, Troy Hickman, a nation turns its lonely eyes to you...

The idea that you writing casual literature, in a serious manner, somehow made you a voice of expertise on something that is obviously not in your field, yes.

I always find it funny when people take something far too seriously, including myself. After the fact.

You should relax, getting this worked up about anything isn't healthy for you.

Except that I didn't say that. Maybe you should go back and read the original post again.

Or maybe you feel that fitting two puzzle pieces together requires special expertise. /shrug

You knee-jerked on the word "fanfic" juxtaposed near the words "trust me". The only reason I mentioned it was to explain why I was going through the exercise of trying to fit Paragon City into Rhode Island. If I had never said that, it would not have changed anything else I said about how Paragon City does not actually fit into Rhode Island.

It made me laugh dude, I wasn't declaring war on fanficism.

You were complaining about the map not matching real life, which is so far out of left field you may as well be playing a different sport.

If you want people to take you seriously, start by formulating an argument where the obvious response isn't "Get a grip and learn how to suspend disbelief."

I'm gonna have to agree with this. Slick making the claim that it's wrong for CoX's Rhode Island to not be the same as Real Life's Rhode Island is just as absurd as someone suggesting that because CoX has a Well of the Furies, Real Life has a Well of the Furies.

It's a game. Whether you've written a story or not you have to understand that it's a game. It baffles me that someone could get so upset with a geographical difference when the world in CoX is, in many other ways, drastically different from the Real World. The two cannot be compared without a suspension of disbelief.

It baffles me that taking issue with the anomalies in the map is interpreted as "being so upset".

Look; they've said that Paragon City is based on Providence. Is that good enough for 99.99999% of the players? Yep, because it never matters except that we can say "Yeah, that's plausible".

Here's the thing - The developers of the game are the ones that said "This is an alternate Providence." THEY are the ones who gave their make-believe city roots in the real world. The plausibility breaks down when even a tiny amount of fact checking reveals that it's nothing like the real world city. Suspend disbelief? Sure, fine. I watch Independence Day and enjoy it as an action movie without crying about the stupidity of composing a virus on a Macintosh and uploading it into an alien computer network.

And if saying "A town that has an ancient underground magical lost city underneath it and miles of sewers and mining tunnels and who knows what all else has probably got a different geography than Providence" does it for you then more power to you. I've no beef with that.

The problems occur when you try to put the place into a greater context than just "how do I get from Atlas Park to Steel Canyon?" If you run with the idea that Paragon City does, indeed, have roots in the real world and you start trying to make it mesh with the real world a little, you find out that it doesn't work without "suspending disbelief" which in this case means saying "Oh, it doesn't really have roots in the real world after all".

It only ever mattered to me because I wanted to visualize what the first day of the Rikti invasion was like. I wanted to know how people would get out of the city, where they would go, and what the congestion would be like. In that context, those missing roots became a problem. *shrug*

To each his own. In the end, it simply comes down to the original statement. "They didn't do the research." If you feel that they never needed to do the research and shouldn't have ever been required to do it because "it's fiction", well, there's no good answer to that. YMMV.

So the problem is that I'm too Srs Bsns, not that you reacted to a claim of "special expertise" (cartography, perhaps?) that I didn't actually make? I understand. Thanks for the enlightenment.

Why would anyone even think CoH's Rhode Island SHOULD match up to the Real World's Rhode Island?

CoH's Rhode Island has been stated in the lore, that it was expanded due to earthquakes and such, making it a much bigger state, and opening up new river ways and all that jazz.

I do a lot of hand-waving too, but in my case it's usually to distract my victims from what's going on below my waist...

There totally is. Only it's actually called Orange Bagel and it's owned by Einstein Brothers.

You can trust me, I'm from the Internet.

Ask Slick, he seems to know.


1 Point to Bosstone.

This. You are spot on. No matter what people think of Statesman, he is the hallmark on what it means to be a Superhero. His reactions and actions in response to his daughter's death keep within his established character. I, for one, am thankful that the Devs did not have him go off half-cocked and begin a systematic war of vengeance as some suggested he should do.

Out of curiosity, and having nothing at all to do with any previous upstream debate, what lore are you referring to?

Shocking, isn't it? Next thing you know, people like me will be complaining that there aren't any lakes within driving distance of Providence that are actually big enough to hold a lake monster.

That is why I think it is up to us to fill Statesman's shoes, in fact I think this is necessary [for our heroes, as participants in the story]. Or maybe in Manticore we are left with the symbol Paragon deserves (a cookie to anyone who knows where I got that )? This is just like when Britannia lost the Avatar. Britannia had to step up when Minax attacked. Okay most of you will have no idea what I'm talking about, but my point is that Statesman is kind of like the Avatar of his universe, long-illustrating the traditional qualities that define many of its heroes. It's up to us now! I was never a Statesman hater, but I believe this is may be a necessary step in the (our?) story.

Ideally, yes, but I'm not ready for that, particularly when the script tends to force me into taking actions against my, and incidently Statesman's, moral code. For instance, I adamantly refuse to accept that heroes be allowed to kill without consequences, and yet not only does the game encourage it, it often forces that outcome.

I could be wrong, but IMO Paragon City should resemble Metropolis rather than Gotham City. If Superman dies and Batman takes over... let's just say we might as well start calling it the City of Vigilantes.

That depends on what the writers allow us players to do.

Do we get to drive Manticore out of the city, or at least put him in his place? Will we be given a scripted option to always follow the "Walking the Path" Badge even when it's unreasonable and puts everyone else at risk? Will Paragon City's NPCs acknowledge our efforts and start acting as helpful informants rather than employers? Will the Phalanx and the other NPC heroes start deferring to the players or will they keep refering to my lvl 53 incarnate as "kid"? Will the villains start taking the players seriously or will they keep giving on speeches about Statesman while we're in the process of rearranging their faces?

All of these problems will need to be corrected once there's no more Statesman, because you really don't want to become the sidekick of Statesman's ghost.

No he isn't. He's a self-centered glory hog who's caused more damage than actual help. The in-game lore shows plenty of times he's a screwup who thinks with his biceps. He doesn't care about collateral damage, he doesn't think about the effects his actions have on those "less" than him, and he views everything through a narrow lens. He's been responsible for knocking spaceships down into populated areas, almost caused World War III, and many other things. He considers himself above the law, above diplomacy or forethought. From invading sovereign nations to brawling with other superpowered entities and letting everyone else pick up the pieces (the plaque in Perez Parks details how he left people to die during his battle with a mysterious villain) he's less a real hero and more an immature man-child with god-like powers that doesn't extend to his intellect.

He's not a superhero, he's not even a hero. He's a narcissistic self-centered screwup who's killed hundreds, put uncounted people in danger, and destroyed billions of dollars in property. Even in the comic for the new tutorial mission, instead of trying to convince Lord Recluse to assist in pushing back the Shivan menace, or doing anything else, he leaps at Recluse like an idiot and gets who knows how many people killed when Recluse knocks his idiotic butt into a building. Seriously, a meteor hits Galaxy City, altered Shivans are killing people, and when he sees Recluse (who mocks him for not being able to keep Galaxy City safe) what does he do? Scream "YOU DID THIS!" and leaps at him. Seriously? Recluse had the power to call down a meteor full of Shivans? It just shows how brainless he is, thinking with nothing more than his fists and leading with his face into any fight.

His grand-daughter's claim to fame seems to be more her grandfather and mother and her super-powered corrupt PMC than anything, except for occupying the Rogue Isles (even prior to their invasion of American soil following the destruction of Galaxy City), trying to take over an official UN body because she feels she can do it better, and other wonderful things. Even the Vindicators seem to be more involved with turning the Rogue Isles into a battleground than actually trying to change things. She acts just like you'd expect Statesman's sidekick to act, arrogant and above the law.

He's also the GM self-insertion of (from all accounts) a poor tabletop GM who created CoX as an offshoot of the Champions game he played IRL. Statesman is little more than a power-fantasy GMNPC who was more to show how you how cool the GM was was anything that really moves forward the plot or meaningfully affects the game world.

I could write a post 3X as long describing everything wrong with Statesman.

It's perfectly in character for him to run off instead of actually, you know, doing something useful that demands acting like an adult instead of an immature idiot. Don't give me "but his daughter was just killed" or "he just lost a child", non-superheroes have it happen who don't have so many responsibilities on them, and they do their best to keep up their duties and responsibilities. But rather than consider "Hey, wait, this seems to be a big plot, what could they be after? Just taking my powers or killing me can't be their end-game, what is this huge involved and intricate plot about?" he runs off and I'm willing to bet he runs face first into whatever trap that's been set up. Why? Because he can't use his head, can't think of anything beyond "I'll just punch whatever is going on in the face, that'll solve the problems!" like we've seen out of him so far in the lore and the game itself.

I'm glad the Dev's are ditching him. Hopefully we'll see Positron or anyone else step up and takes the reigns. Acting more like a mentor and someone interested in doing good than showing off and impressing everyone. I'm hoping the newest center-stage iconics approach the Rikti menace without the arrogance and stupidity that seemed to revolve around Statesman. Maybe without Statesman around Ms. Liberty will come across as more than a self-centered spoiled little brat, and Longbow won't be given carte blanch to do whatever they want, coming across more like a rogue PMC than an actual hero organization.

By ditching him, not only will it force other heroes to step up, but will create a power vacuum that will have long lasting and long reaching effects.

Maybe now we'll get NPC's who do more than think with their powers and biceps, and a little more characterization in the iconics beyond "Aren't we cool! Don't you wish you could make a difference like I do!" while they stand around in place and do little more than send other heroes out on missions that they could have handled. With "The Coming Storm", the Rikti War, and the Praetorian Invasion, there's now in-game lore reasons for younger/lesser powered heroes to have to take up the mantle, to take care of things for the iconic heroes. Assisting Positron with his TF because he's helping push back a major assault by the Rikti, or he's helping to keep the Shivan menace from escaping the ruins of Galaxy City is much more believable than the reasons given.

I'm hoping they will do some work on characterization to make the characters more than just two dimensional flat characters they way they are now.

With Galaxy City being destroyed, there's a lot of room for us to see character growth for the other iconics within the story. Even having Marcus Cole drained of his power and returning to mere mortal status, so that Statesman "dies" but Marcus Cole lives on can provide a lot of story movement and serious shakeups to the world.

I wouldn't even mind if the dev's did a lot of retconning to the in-game lore.

With characters beginning to become incarnates, and hints in the SSA that the PC's will now be offered a place in the Freedom Phalanx, more and more the players will have to step up into the shoes of a powerful Incarnate like Statesman. I applaud the changes, if it lets the characters step up.

I'm just worried that in SSA #6 or #7 Statesman will get rescued or brought back from the dead with full power, despite the fact that Statesman is supposed to be removed from active missions and TF's.

TLDR; Statesman is a crappy character who isn't a hero in any way shape or form, with an overinflated opinion of himself and a PR department that takes his monumental screwups and makes them into victories, and the game is well rid of him.

You seriously blame Statesman for all of that? Or are you blaming the writers for some sort of mania that is going to be cured by Statesman's death? Statesman has so little presence in the game proper that I'm raising an eyebrow at the suggestion that he somehow stole so much screen time that everyone else either got developed poorly or never got the chance to develop.

I sure don't see how Statesman dying is going to change the characterization of Longbow or Ms. Liberty. Her mother's death doesn't seem to have fazed her too awfully much.