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Frankly, I think they're a bunch of scum. Remember back when cable television came along and one of the big selling points was no commercials? We had to pay for it to avoid the commercials. Now we pay more than ever and have just as many commercials as we ever did. So let's not talk about upholding bargains.
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Originally Posted by Durakken
What does that have to do with DVRs? TV, cable and network, the programming you get to see is paid for via commercials. The commercials are based on the idea that they are exchanging paying for the show for time to convince you to buy their product...
By you not watching the commercials you are not upholding your end of the sales thing going and because of that, in essence, not paying for the show you are watching and thus stealing that show... |
Paragon City Search And Rescue
The Mentor Project
DVRs are just the new tech version of VCRs.
Digital distribution of recorded television is like receiving/giving a friend a copy of such a recording you made.
Goodbye may seem forever
Farewell is like the end
But in my heart's the memory
And there you'll always be
-- The Fox and the Hound
The copyright laws have contained an exception under "fair use" laws for personal recordings of "over the air" broadcasts since the 1976 Revision of the Copyright Act. It was originally incuded in the law to allow people to use cassette recorders to copy songs from radio stations. The same provisions have been extended to include video.
As long as you keep it only for personal use, recording shows is not illegal. Advertisers know that this stuff is recorded, and that's all taken into account in advertising rates. It is covered by "fair use," so it is not an issue.
LOCAL MAN! The most famous hero of all. There are more newspaper stories about me than anyone else. "Local Man wins Medal of Honor." "Local Man opens Animal Shelter." "Local Man Charged with..." (Um, forget about that one.)
Guide Links: Earth/Rad Guide, Illusion/Rad Guide, Electric Control
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If you were forced to see the commercials, you couldn't go to the bathroom during the breaks . . .
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Originally Posted by Hopeling
Yes, I realize that commercials pay for the show. But if I have no legal obligation to watch the commercials, it cannot possibly be illegal to not watch them.
Edit: As evidenced by movies, which don't have commercials but can still be pirated. |
LOCAL MAN! The most famous hero of all. There are more newspaper stories about me than anyone else. "Local Man wins Medal of Honor." "Local Man opens Animal Shelter." "Local Man Charged with..." (Um, forget about that one.)
Guide Links: Earth/Rad Guide, Illusion/Rad Guide, Electric Control
I hate the whole argument that just because thousands of people downloaded some type of media, then the company has lost that much in profit. Some people would have bought the media, but others would not even bother if there was no means of obtaining it. Also, people tend to buy books, games, and movies and only use them once before it is never used again.
In order for people to have a reason to buy such items, it is necessary for there to be some incentive to pay for it like sculptures in Collector's Editions. Besides content like Netflix and Steam is how modern content should be. Books, CDs, and DVDs are outdated.
The first step in being sane is to admit that you are insane.
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Honestly, DVRs are simply time-shifting. Not piracy. Yeah, it can get sort of absurd if someone builds themselves one that saves to some multi-terabyte drive array.|
Originally Posted by Durakken
I'm curious how those of you that are against pirating feel about DVRs... What do I mean?
Well, the basic argument is that the reason "pirating" is bad is because you are stealing, not paying for, whatever it is you are pirating. What does that have to do with DVRs? TV, cable and network, the programming you get to see is paid for via commercials. The commercials are based on the idea that they are exchanging paying for the show for time to convince you to buy their product... By you not watching the commercials you are not upholding your end of the sales thing going and because of that, in essence, not paying for the show you are watching and thus stealing that show... DVRs are a big part of our culture now, but I've never heard anything against them, but they pretty much do the same thing as pirating. So... It seems to me that people who are against pirating should be against DVRs... so are you or not? Why or why not? |
But, so long as nobody's SELLING the recorded video to others, I look at it this way.
They got it in one of 2 ways:
- It was broadcast free over the air. If you didn't want people capturing it you (the content producer/distributor) shouldn't broadcast.
- The person paid for the time necessary to capture the video (cable, satellite, etc). So you've (again, content producer/distributor) been paid.
Clicking on the linked image above will take you off the City of Heroes site. However, the guides will be linked back here.
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Originally Posted by Durakken
The same thing that say, the xmas swag thread has, or Why is it during doomsday scenerio's people always make stupid decisions?, or Human potential, or There is a glitch in the matrix when....
It's a nerd culture forum. No, it's not. If it does I don't know how. Would you care to enlighten me? |
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Originally Posted by Durakken
The same thing that say, the xmas swag thread has, or Why is it during doomsday scenerio's people always make stupid decisions?, or Human potential, or There is a glitch in the matrix when....
It's a nerd culture forum. No, it's not. If it does I don't know how. Would you care to enlighten me? |
This isn't a nerd culture forum. If it is please petition the Mods to change the name of the forum to that. I come to this section of the forums to read about heroes and villains. Not DVR's. And by that logic, what do DVRs have to do with nerd culture.
Unlocking human potential is how we got Captain America.
The Matrix had a hero that could fly and bend his reality to his whims. You know, super powers.
Doomsday scenarios could be in reference to nearly any comic crossover, or if we're talking comics, The Walking Dead comes to mind. Or Marvel Zombies.
Why not just start another Wolverine Vs. Rapheal thread? At least that pertained to Comics.
Willpower has more passive regen than Regen does. Who thought that was a good idea?
Can we get a fix for Energy Melee instead of more new sets?
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This is completely stupid. If I'm watching the show live and walk away while the commercials are playing, is that considered pirating? No. Fast forwarding past them on a recording is no different. Seriously, your question was answered a long time ago. No one's buying your sales pitch. Move on.|
Originally Posted by Durakken
If you aren't watching the commercials you aren't paying for the show thus you shouldn't be watching the show.
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Side note: in case you're trying to use the rational that this isn't piracy so you can then copy DVR recordings to be distributed elsewhere, then don't be surprised if you run into legal problems, because that is piracy, which I'm sure you are well aware of.
@Rylas
Kill 'em all. Let XP sort 'em out.
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Oh, Raphael was definitely the better painter.
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Originally Posted by Gobbledygook
Why not just start another Wolverine Vs. Rapheal thread? At least that pertained to Comics.
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@Rylas
Kill 'em all. Let XP sort 'em out.
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Pretty much all Wolverine paints is MLP/Saw crossover fanart. All of the other X-Men are getting pretty sick of it, especially when he insists on hanging his paintings on the fridge.
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Originally Posted by Rylas
Oh, Raphael was definitely the better painter.
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"You don't lose levels. You don't have equipment to wear out, repair, or lose, or that anyone can steal from you. About the only thing lighter than debt they could do is have an NPC walk by, point and laugh before you can go to the hospital or base." -Memphis_Bill
We will honor the past, and fight to the last, it will be a good way to die...
A show was on, and I went to the bathroom during a commercial break.
Now I'm worried that they are going to sue me for piracy.
Great Wall of Prophecy, reveal to us God's will that we may blindly obey.
Free us from thought and responsibility
We shall read things off of you.
Then do them
Your words guide us.
We're dumb
DVRs are the replacement for VCRs. My VCR has a one minute FF button on it's remote that can stack 3 times. This is an old argument about avoiding commercials.
The one major ability that DVRs don't have versus VCRs is the ability to archive material off of the device. When I first got a VCR in the 80s I went nuts and taped 100s of movies off of HBO and Cinemax. I taped the entire Robotech series. I have tapes of my favorite sporting events, things like close playoff games. With the lack of off loading saved programs as well as adding additional storage, you simply can't do that with DVRs.
The big difference between DVRs and VCRs for the average user, the ability to easily set it to record a program. I never had the problem myself, checking the TV guide and programming a VCR to record what I want but DVRs now makes it trivial enough that my technophobic Mom can fill the DVR with judge shows.
Father Xmas - Level 50 Ice/Ice Tanker - Victory
$725 and $1350 parts lists --- My guide to computer components
Tempus unum hominem manet
Getting a copy of something for free is not pirating. Pirating is the action of making copies.
If somebody hands you a copy which they have made of a dvd or cd or game it is not you who has pirated, it is the person handing the copy to you.
The reason bittorrenting is pirating is because while downloading content you are simultaneously uploading that same content to other users. Since you are uploading you are pirating.
So far as I know nobody has a dvr that broadcasts its programs to other people so the whole concept behind the OP has zero bearing on reality. And just to head off a potential argument, recording a broadcast that you are entitled to receive falls under fair use and it doesn't matter if you zip through the commercials or not. Advertisers do not pay for a guarantee that somebody will watch their commercial. They pay for the possibility that somebody will.
Don't count your weasels before they pop dink!
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There are two more major diferences between a DVR and VCR.|
Originally Posted by Father Xmas
DVRs are the replacement for VCRs. My VCR has a one minute FF button on it's remote that can stack 3 times. This is an old argument about avoiding commercials.
The one major ability that DVRs don't have versus VCRs is the ability to archive material off of the device. When I first got a VCR in the 80s I went nuts and taped 100s of movies off of HBO and Cinemax. I taped the entire Robotech series. I have tapes of my favorite sporting events, things like close playoff games. With the lack of off loading saved programs as well as adding additional storage, you simply can't do that with DVRs. The big difference between DVRs and VCRs for the average user, the ability to easily set it to record a program. I never had the problem myself, checking the TV guide and programming a VCR to record what I want but DVRs now makes it trivial enough that my technophobic Mom can fill the DVR with judge shows. |
The first is, VCR tapes degrade fairly quickly. Most prerecorded tapes have a lifespan of 5 years with normal use ("by the book" that is, I have movies that are in good shape after 20 years) and mose recordable ones have a lifespan of 8 to 10 years (again "by the book"). Both degrade in quality over time.
DVRs have no such problems and many now do have the capability to offload via a USB port. They are far more stable and far more long lasting with the quality not dropping with each subsiquent replay.
The second difference is copy speed. There are some dual deck VCRs that can do a rapid copy, but that costs sound and picture quality and still takes a fair chunk of time. The vast majority of tape to tape (or even tape to DVD/Tape to hard drive) conversions require real time recording.
DVRs can do it with little or no loss of quality at much higher speeds. DVR recordings can be transmitted large distances with little or no loss of quality or speed at very rapid rates.
On a different note, the television industry caught on to the threat of VCRs fairly quickly but were cautious in their response. Whern VCRs became a common household appliance, they did take some measures to protect their revenue stream. The first of these was one networks too to protect themelves. They invented "the bug." "Bugs" were already common, but it was a unobtrusive, occasional network and station identifier that popped up on the screen from time to time. They took that same tech and began promoting their shows in the same way, startign with simple text "up next" announcements in the lower right corner of the screen. When people didn't complain much, they started pushing what they could do with them adding logos and graphics. Now, you see some that take up 1/6th of the screen (sometimes more) with full motion images, logos, text and occasionally sound.
The second thing they did was expand their show endorsements. There had always been "this show brought to you by" promotion, but it expanded greatly from a post show announcement to one before, during and after the show. The number of shows doing it also expanded, takign it from a "special presentation" and daytime soap thing to common at al hours of the day and night on just about every kind of show.
The third thing they did was look to the film industry and take a page rom their book. They started accepting far more contracts to feature products inside the shows themselves. This program was a gentle expansion, seeing how far they could go before enough viewers noticed and started talking about it. Once they got it dialed in, they leveled off.
The fourth thing they did was take a page formt he early days of television and internalize commercials. Older folks can remember classic TV shows having commercials right inside the show. Suddenly, right in the middle of a scene, Andy Taylor and Barney Fife would pause for a smoke and discuss their cigarettes or decided they needed a bowl of Grape Nuts right then (and take it out of the desk drawer). The new version of this pretty much culminated with the Friends episode "The One With Potter Barn" where the entire show was basically a commercial for how awesome Potter Barn was. That got a lot of backlash at the time and the networks figured out what line not to cross. They went for a more subtle approach after that. Instead of blatantly promopting a store for the episode, they began endorsing products and stores with casual mentions or very short discussion like, "I got it for a great price at Sears" or filming inside Toys R Us with enough signs and pictures of the mascot to choke a mule.
The last major thing they've done so far is Credits Pushes. They crush the credits off to the side or bottom and run a very short ad (or series of ads) right over the credits followed quickly by the start of the next show before the credits end. This is another expansion of earlier practices where they would mute the credits and talk about upcomming shows or would break into the credits with "this show sponsored by" graphics. Not only does that increase their revenue stream, it also keeps people from changing channels.
In short, thanks to VCRs they were ready for the loss of commercial viewers by the time TiVo and its cousins made it a problem and long before DVRs became common. The advent of cable was already setting them up for it. The networks were already looking into al of this before VCRs had a chance to make it difficult for them because they'd blead millions of viewers to cable channels. Now they have to worry about DVRs and such not because of commercial revenue loss but because of unobserved "Time Shifted" viewing which throws off their ratings and effects what they charge for not just commercial slots, but also the stuff I've listed above.
The current experiments in ad delivery are fairly expected. One plan is for computers, game systems and televisions to be merged into a coherent unit and screen space to be dedicated full time to targets ads like on websites (think of the televisions in Idiocracy but lower key). Devo (the band) got into the act by testing "Intravideo Marketing" with their "What We Do" web video where you could move the camera around a video yourself and click on items to purchase inside the video (yes, I still want a red energy dome). The BBC is also tinkering with commercial possibilities with their Red Button setup, a technology that is being looked at for commercial possibilities outside the UK. Motion controller tech, especially "no remote" tech like the Kinect, is also being look at so you could point to an item in a show and ask about it, pausing the show and being taken to an info and purchase page, but the tech's not quite there yet. The most interesting and intrusive experement is going on right now with cable boxes that scan the room and identify who is in the room watching the television along with what they're watching. It's being used for ratings right now, but the future of the technology is to increase the camera fidelity and observe interest levels to tailor commercials and ad placement inside shows. Beyond that is another boost in fidelity to observe and interpret eye movement and blink rates. Beyond that is another increase in fidelity to alow ad targeting and product access with nothing more than eye movement and iris response.
Basically, DVR technology is less of a problem for the industry and more of a godsend. With VCRs they couldn't intigrate technologies like these. With digital signals, they can imbed the necessary links and software inside the broadcast and your DVR record them along with the show.
I dont see it as pirating for a number of reasons. One is advertisers need to flat-out come up with another method instead of commercials. 99% of the time I skip past them or just watch it on netflix if its available. It just does not work for the most part. The next thing is it costs us zero dollars out of pocket and we as the consumer have no way to pay for said programing so technically you can not pirate it. Commercials are an annoyance at best and really serve no purpose so few people actually buy what they see from tv. For me its extremely rare I buy something I see on TV.
Bump and Grind Bane/SoA
Kenja No Ishi Earth/Empathy Controller
Legendary Sannin Ninja/Pain Mastermind
Entoxicated Ninja/PSN Mastermind
Ninja Ryukenden Kat/WP Scrapper
Hellish Thoughts Fire/PSI Dominator
Thank You Devs for Merits!!!!
Redbone, with all that being said do you think that commercials, in the traditional sense, will be removed and the shows, the content, will be extended to be hour long rather than 42 minutes with commercials?
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It already exists with the series on the movie channels. Game of Thrones, True Blood and others that are on networks like Showtime, HBO etc... But for channels available on basic or expanded basic I don't see that happening. Sure people can fast forward through commercials but human nature is to be impatient. There are plenty of people who aren't willing to wait to watch a program on their dvr. They have to watch it live. So long as that demographic is substantial commercials will continue to exist.|
Originally Posted by Durakken
Redbone, with all that being said do you think that commercials, in the traditional sense, will be removed and the shows, the content, will be extended to be hour long rather than 42 minutes with commercials?
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EDIT: And I forgot to mention a scary aspect. It is possible for DVRs to be triggered to not fast forward through commercials. You can actually see this function used in some VOD selections. Most of the VODs that include commercials allow you to fast forward but some of them the commercials are unskippable. So the technology is available to make all commercials work that way.
Don't count your weasels before they pop dink!
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As long as mid-show commercials show a return, they will continue to exist. I should also add that by "return" we're not just talking about selling products but also selling the brand. Brand recognition is still intensely important as is building brand loyality on top of that. One way to do both is through constant repitition and commercials are a large aspect of that (even going outside television). The fastest and easiest way currently avaliable to introduce a new product or even new class of product is a heavy air campaign on television. That will not change much in the forseeable future. While there has been some success with things like viral marketing, that field is still too hit-and-miss to pump vast sums into and only works when the competition for attention is low. Television commercials don't suffer that problem.|
Originally Posted by Durakken
Redbone, with all that being said do you think that commercials, in the traditional sense, will be removed and the shows, the content, will be extended to be hour long rather than 42 minutes with commercials?
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In the near term we'll see a similar reliance on mid-show commercials as a primary medium. Over a few decades that will lessen as the entire TV medium moves into a a new, 21st century era of broadcasting that takes into account a higher and higher penetration of "on demand" and time-shifted style viewing and takes advantage of digital signals to deliver marketing in newer ways.
If you made me make a guess, in 50 years the mid-show commercials we have today will seem as out of place as the in-show, in-universe commercials of the 50s and 60s. Show run times won't actually alter that much as far as how much plot and action are in them, but the run times will alter from the standpoint that more time will be taken up with lingering product placement and endorsement along with product placement and endorsement being folded in as plot points of the shows themselves.
In my opinion, children's cartoons are leading the way. Entire shows dedicated to marketing specific products, a specific company or a narrow set of products will eventualy become the norm. In that era two primary things will control what is on the air and what stays on the air.
The first will be corporate backing. A show that isn't watched much will have a better chance of surviving if it has, say, Coke behind it than a show that gets more viewers but is backed by Dr. Smooth Soda. The Coke show will simply be able to buy its way in and last as long as Coke wants it to so long as its function as a product vehicle remains viable.
The second will be production house ownership. A network that owns the production house making the show will be more likely to leave it on over one made by a production house it doesn't own, even if it's less profitable. The reason is the lower rated show is wholly or majority owned by the network, so it will get more of the pie from syndication, DVD and iStore sales as well as product placement and whatever ad revenue there is than one they do not own.
The second one already heavily influences scheduling and cancellation decisions (Firefly is a great example, one thing that went a long way towards its death was FOX not owning the production house).
We're well on our way to all first run shows on Network X being created and made by a production house owned entirely or in majority by Network X and independent freelance production houses that will work with any network vanishing. That way the networks can collect all the money from product placement and endorsements, making those the life's blood of the industry rather than mid-show ads. The indies will only survive by buying airtime on the networks and paying for the time (rather like infomercials) so the network can recoup the lost ad revenue.
Marketers have used product placements as well as ad spots because of DVRs. Because of this, I am still keeping up my end of the bargain.
/thread.
The City of Heroes Community is a special one and I will always look fondly on my times arguing, discussing and playing with you all. Thanks and thanks to the developers for a special experience.
Don't know whose DVRs you have in your area Redbone but around where I live the two cable companies in my area, Cox and Comcast, use a Motorola DVR that isn't extendable or have the capability to export recorded programs. Well the box itself may have those features but both cable companies have those features disabled. Can't even get a down-sampled analog signal out to feed into a VCR, HDMI out only.
Father Xmas - Level 50 Ice/Ice Tanker - Victory
$725 and $1350 parts lists --- My guide to computer components
Tempus unum hominem manet
In many ways DVRs are the new VCR. When the VCR came about the entertainment industry sued to make them illegal. That failed. When DVRs were introduced, multiple suits were tried and each time they were defeated.
Some have said that a VCR tape is a permanent copy. However, theres nothing stopping a person with a DVR and a DVD recorder from doing the same. The inputs and outputs are there and they have been ever since the introduction of the DVDR. I know of a gentleman (and no, Im not talking me here) who has for the past couple years been renting from his local library and making personal copies of everything. He is a pirate.
There are antenna/cable tuners for your PC that turn it into a DVR. I dont know of a single PC sold in the US in the past 4 years that hasnt had a DVD recorder in it. My TiVo is connected to my PC by way of wifi and a little program provided by TiVo called TiVo Desktop. With it, I can transfer my TiVo recordings to my PC and free up space on my recorder. They dont have infinite capacity. (I first found out about the TiVo Desktop a couple years ago when I was trying to save my recordings of a Canadian/South African show called Charlie Jade.) Once on my PC, another program translates it to DVD format and my DVDR makes me a permanent copy, just like that VCR tape. In fact once any program is on a PC from many a different format its rather easy to convert it to DVD. There are even free programs to do so nowadays. They will even let you chop out the commercials easily.
So, this longwinded explanation is to say that DVRs, even when used to make a permanent copy, are no more illegal or pirating than a VCR.
But the entertainment industry are very worried about them because of the ease in which they can be used to let people become pirates for profit. Once on a PC and edited (which might take a couple hours, depending on edits), a two hour program can be recorded to DVD in under 10 minutes. That same program on a VCR would still take two hours to make each copy. With DVDs, there are copiers that you can buy that can let you make 10 or more copies at the same time. 60 copies an hour 1440 possible in a day. That terrifies the Hollywood executive.
Unfortunately the entertainment industry has taken a very weird and unrealistic stance on piracy. They see every copy watched/copied, but not paid for, as a lost sale. However, no matter how many studies that show that those who pirate actually buy more stuff than those who dont, and despite the fact that we dont know how many people who pirate would have never have bought the product ever, they continue to cling to their ridiculous views. The entertainment industrys Nirvana would be that each time a person listens to a song, views a movie or television show, or reads a book, they get paid some money. It will never happen, but thats what they want.
Anyways, DVR=VCR as far as the courts are concerned. And that means that no DVR is a piracy tool any more than any VCR is.
I find there are two different styles of piracy, bootlegging and personal. Bootlegging should be illegal no matter the circumstances since it brings profit to someone other than the artist. Personal is more grey.
As long as it is just one person watching the content, then it depends on the type of content. Fansubs and Scanlations for anime and manga is not completely the artist's work anymore. Therefore, the legality rests on the group that altered the work than the person that downloaded it. TV shows and music are also a grey area since if it can be recorded on a DVR so what does it matter how a person obtains the show. Exclusive content that is only available through a channel like HBO would be illegal unless a person has access to the exclusive content.
The first step in being sane is to admit that you are insane.
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Dish Network has several models that offer the USB attachment/functionality. It'll support up to a 2TB external hard drive.
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Originally Posted by Father Xmas
Don't know whose DVRs you have in your area Redbone but around where I live the two cable companies in my area, Cox and Comcast, use a Motorola DVR that isn't extendable or have the capability to export recorded programs. Well the box itself may have those features but both cable companies have those features disabled. Can't even get a down-sampled analog signal out to feed into a VCR, HDMI out only.
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I figured that by the time we got it here in the backwards, deep south, middle-of-nowhere everyone would have it. Maybe we're ahead of the curve for once, but my current "freebies" from the cable company (Charter, the fourth largest in the US behind both the ones you list) can export pretty much at will to just about any storage medium I choose (I can even export wirelessly and copy to this computer from the box in the bedroom or the one in the den). Admitted, both boxes are basically new (put in a little under a year ago), but the same is true of the ones at my parents house and both next-door-neighbours. We might even have similar DVRs since both mine are Motorolas.|
Originally Posted by Father Xmas
Don't know whose DVRs you have in your area Redbone but around where I live the two cable companies in my area, Cox and Comcast, use a Motorola DVR that isn't extendable or have the capability to export recorded programs. Well the box itself may have those features but both cable companies have those features disabled. Can't even get a down-sampled analog signal out to feed into a VCR, HDMI out only.
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EDIT: Just out of curiosity, the neighbour and I ran a little test. If he opens up his wireless network with the DVR attached, I can also access what he has on his DVR. I assume the same is true across the board and this little row of three houses could access each other fairly readily (I can access both their networks, and each can access mine, but not each others).
If you're DVRing something, you likely have some kind of cable service that you're paying for in order to get the channels that you record. Part of that payment goes toward the content providers. Even if you're DVRing and skipping commercials, you're still paying them somehow.
The same goes for streaming from Hulu/Netflix. You're paying Netflix, and Netflix has deals with the providers to bring you the content you're streaming. With Hulu, you're still watching commercials which you can't skip, even if you're using the premium subscription version. In fact you're probably watching more commercials in viewing a show on Hulu than you are just DVRing it.
If you're downloading a movie/TV show, you're not paying the content providers at all. Commercials are completely cut out, and you're not paying anyone for access rights. (And no, paying for your internet doesn't count here, the money you pay for internet access doesn't in any way go toward the providers of the content in question here.)
So anyway, no, I'm not against DVRs, I have one and use it religiously every single day, for everything I watch. And yes, I enjoy that I don't have to sit through 20 minutes of commercials for a 40 minute show. But I'm still paying for both the DVR and the cable service to it. The only time I download shows is when my DVR glitches and doesn't record correctly, and I can't find it for streaming on any legal sites. Then I'll download the episode I missed, watch it, and continue to DVR the rest of the series.