Level 53 and weaker than a Hellion
By
AkuTenshiiZero,
Posted on: 2011-12-16 06:40 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
Actually, wanna know how to make it still a challenge?
Make all the regular citizens level 5 just like they are in Praetoria.
The danger comes not from them attacking you, but the fact that even damage auras can one-shot them. Hell, looking at them too hard would likely hurt them.
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Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
City of Heroes is a game about freedom of expression and variety of experiences far more so than it is about representing any one theme, topic or genre.
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Steel Shaman hits the nail on the head. It seems you have yet to be fully blinded by the rage of the forums.|
Originally Posted by Steel_Shaman
*Many very good points*
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Now to give some of my own input on how I think this sort of thing could be improved/how I would have gone about it:
I would fill trials to the brim with nothing stronger than minions. The idea being that your team is an unstoppable cosmic force ripping apart the IDF.
What balances this? AV teams, multiple GMs, and the odd Mega-AV (or Reichsman class).
But fighting those guys would be a more incremental thing. BAF, for it's length, gives a good feel about what it would be like, laser turrets aside: Crushing IDF, kick an AV's butt, beat up more waves of people (or the special mechanic segment), another AV, then AV tag team. There could be small variations, like instead of just fighting two AVs needing to be defeated together, Cole actually throws his own league at yours. (They let off their destiny powers, summon their lore pets, call down judgements, smack you with interface debuffs and DoTs, the idea is that these guys would be a mirror match)
Of course another problem about how hard it is to balance easy and challenge in this game is due to how AVs work in this game.
As Yahtzee: "A boss should be a final exam of everything we've learned up to that point in the game. Not just a standard mook whose downed a couple of protein bars."
And stopping here before I go off on a tangent.
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Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
City of Heroes is a game about freedom of expression and variety of experiences far more so than it is about representing any one theme, topic or genre.
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Is 'Humiliation' an unresistable and unavoidable damage type now?
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Originally Posted by ClawsandEffect
So....if we become as "godlike" as some here think we should become.....how many times can you go and faceroll everything in the game before you get insufferably bored with it and go play something else?
Yeah, getting killed by a rock is pretty silly, but do you really have to be so invincible that nothing in the game is ever a threat to you again? That just.....doesn't sound like much fun. I know Sam's answer already, but how long could you sit and play Doom on godmode before you shut the game off? For me, it was about 20 minutes. The devs are hopelessly screwed here. If they make things easier, people complain because there's no challenge. If they make things harder, people complain because their demigod (gasp!) lost a fight (oh noes!) From what I've read, there's a simple solution to this: Do the damn trial the way you're supposed to do it instead of ignoring an entire aspect of it and you won't be getting killed by rocks. Seems to me like the devs are getting sneakier in their getting you to not ignore things in content. It's like "Okay, fine, you want to completely ignore this part of the trial so you can speed run it? Now you'll get killed by a rock to the head." |
I'm certainly not asking for anything to be made "easier" - I'm asking for better quality content, not some half-arsed, poor quality, immersion breaking piece of junk!
Thelonious Monk
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Originally Posted by ClawsandEffect
So....if we become as "godlike" as some here think we should become.....how many times can you go and faceroll everything in the game before you get insufferably bored with it and go play something else?
Yeah, getting killed by a rock is pretty silly, but do you really have to be so invincible that nothing in the game is ever a threat to you again? That just.....doesn't sound like much fun. I know Sam's answer already, but how long could you sit and play Doom on godmode before you shut the game off? For me, it was about 20 minutes. The devs are hopelessly screwed here. If they make things easier, people complain because there's no challenge. If they make things harder, people complain because their demigod (gasp!) lost a fight (oh noes!) From what I've read, there's a simple solution to this: Do the damn trial the way you're supposed to do it instead of ignoring an entire aspect of it and you won't be getting killed by rocks. Seems to me like the devs are getting sneakier in their getting you to not ignore things in content. It's like "Okay, fine, you want to completely ignore this part of the trial so you can speed run it? Now you'll get killed by a rock to the head." |
Yep. I have to agree with the theme of most posts - the TPN is sketchy. I don't really enjoy it and the premise if far less than epic. We are trying to stop negative publicity etc and this will earn us our god powers. Riiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiight. THEN on top of that, we're getting whooped by citizens with rocks and fire bombs?? I really don't know who comes up the story and ideas but it sucks. Instead of citizens they should have had something a bit more significant; perhaps Praetorian citizens are all superpowered and we can only defeat them when we're level 1-20? Whoever designed the ITF should be doing the trial ideas/content.
TPN, BAF, Lambda and KEYES trials really don't feel like we're doing anything epic and world saving. We're stopping the lower level stuff...it seems like we're at the foundation of a master plan and we're stopping that plan from becoming a reality. Honestly, these should have been non-incarnate content because there isn't too much epic stuff here. Trials should be the actual event where we're saving the world or something like that.
I also don't get why Maelstrom is so difficult now but was a wuss in tip missions. Did primal Earth's yellow sun sap his powers? He can only be super in Praetoria? Does he wear a big 'S' under his chest plate?
Anyway, some of the trials are good fun but most of the story, theme, content, canon or what have you is underwhelming.
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Superman can apparently be defeated by a gun tossed at his chest. He'll stand there absorbing bullets, but as soon as his enemy runs out and throws the empty gun, now THAT Superman has to dodge, because that stuff is just deadly.
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Originally Posted by Zombie Man
Yeah, it's not like Superman can be taken down with a rock... oh, wait...
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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That's a straw man and you know it. And not the first time you've used that straw man, either.|
Originally Posted by ClawsandEffect
So....if we become as "godlike" as some here think we should become.....how many times can you go and faceroll everything in the game before you get insufferably bored with it and go play something else?
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At what point in which thread did anyone ask to be able to "faceroll" anything? Hell, go and search my "demigods" thread if you want. You won't find it there, either. No-one is asking for easy mode. What people are asking for is challenges that match the threat they're supposed to represent. If a raid is necessary, then have that raid be against the entire Praetorian army, not just one guy who drinks directly from the tap.
Almost everything I've said in relation to Incarnate Trials has been to the effect that we shouldn't be fighting one big bad guy who's stronger than all of us combined. If we must be reduced to a faceless mass of goons, then the only decent reason for this is if this is a war and we're fighting an equally faceless mass of goons on the other side. If we need to fight as an army, then have us fight an army. Don't have us fight one guy who's god-modding.
Like I've said a thousand times before - it's not a question of numbers. It's a question of presentation. It sucks when I get killed by a punk with a baseball bat, but being killed by a giant eldritch demon? Yeah, I can see that. Maybe a robot of war isn't that scary, but a whole platoon of them? Yeah, I can see how they'd be dangerous. Presentation, presentation, presentation.
As the level of threat escalates, that threat needs to be presented in a more believable way. As gods, we should be either fighting other gods one-on-one, or otherwise fighting entire armies as an army of our own. We should not be fighting level 54(+3) rats.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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For me I think trials should try to have breaking points you can set off by doing optional things so that suddenly this slog of a fight against an over powered oppenent shifts rapidly and strongly in your favor. Your outside team manages to kill off about 20 telepaths, the dam breaks and the angry mob goes out of control with the few remaining telepaths unable to hold them at bay and they get swarmed. Then the mob turns their attention to maelstrom and charge him, intent on using whatever blunt object they can get their hands on (including his own arms) to beat maelstrom and his crappy haircut and backstory into a fine paste, your heroes leading the charge against him and his army of IDF before the two fronts clash into a giant melee in the middle of the plaza while you punch, burn, blast, shoot everything thats moving and not wearing street clothes. "Challenge" aside, out of all the trials you would leave the TPN feeling like a badass and probably wanting to go again just so you could rock that mosh pit again. Thats what we need, some trials where you leave and feel like you just curbstomped some heads instead of always feeling like you barely survived by the skin of your teeth or just plain have no idea what happened or how you won/lost.
There is a difference between retreating and giving up.
"A good evil villian kills with style"-Galgarion
"Ha you're more full of yourself than I am!"-Jack Spicer
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Spot on, Sam. This is exactly the issue that was raised with the Malta in the Tin Mage TF. They were just guys with guns while the players had just taken their first sip of Incarnate power. The players are a super powered force that needs to be facing off against a super powered threat. Those big robots in the Warworks are a nice start. Giant monsters like the Avatar of Hamidon are acceptable. A brain-washed army grunt? Nope.
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Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
Almost everything I've said in relation to Incarnate Trials has been to the effect that we shouldn't be fighting one big bad guy who's stronger than all of us combined. If we must be reduced to a faceless mass of goons, then the only decent reason for this is if this is a war and we're fighting an equally faceless mass of goons on the other side. If we need to fight as an army, then have us fight an army. Don't have us fight one guy who's god-modding.
Like I've said a thousand times before - it's not a question of numbers. It's a question of presentation. It sucks when I get killed by a punk with a baseball bat, but being killed by a giant eldritch demon? Yeah, I can see that. Maybe a robot of war isn't that scary, but a whole platoon of them? Yeah, I can see how they'd be dangerous. Presentation, presentation, presentation. |
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You are basically asking for what I call alternate/multiple "solution vectors". In other words, multiple ways of accomplishing a particular abstract goal. As it is, nearly every mission, TF, and trial in the game has fixed objectives in the specific, rather than larger objectives in general where the means of meeting those objectives are left to the creative strategic thinking of players. At best, the more epic "Boss Fights" are glorified tactical skirmishes where the goal is merely to figure out how to survive long enough to overcome the boss with overwhelming damage. Of course, since "end game" toons are frequently min-maxed within a % point of perfection, the only tool left to the devs to make these bosses any sort of challenge at all is to gift them with cheat powers: unresistable damage, autohit attacks, full DEF/Res debuffs, impenetrable defenses with a single Kryptonite-like defeat mechanism (Pacification Grenades, Void Storms, etc.).|
Originally Posted by ElementalFury
For me I think trials should try to have breaking points you can set off by doing optional things so that suddenly this slog of a fight against an over powered oppenent shifts rapidly and strongly in your favor...
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I think the devs feel pushed into a corner because it takes extraordinary design talent to make missions that are challenging to the min-maxers without it being impossibly hard for the more casual players and their average toons (and while everyone's Incarnate abilities are created equal, not everyone knows how to reach softcaps with set IOs and Accolade powers). The gimmicks they are resorting to reveals a number of things, at least to me:
- They think that WoW-style raid mechanics "work" and are fun, even for the superhero genre. 12 million players can't all be wrong, right?
- They can't figure out how to make missions that work for teams with a wide disparity in functional power.
- They think leagues of 24 heroes fighting a single god-mode boss is consistent with superhero comic book storytelling. The Hamidon raid was the original manifestation of this thinking, but we could mostly dismiss that as a singular curiosity; the one truly aberrant bit of content in an otherwise very good superhero MMO.
NOR-RAD - 50 Rad/Rad/Elec Defender - Nikki Stryker - 50 DM/SR/Weap Scrapper - Iron Marauder - 50 Eng/Eng/Pow Blaster
Lion of Might - 50 SS/Inv/Eng Tanker - Darling Nikkee - 50 (+3) StJ/WP/Eng Brute - Ice Giant Kurg - 36 Ice/Storm Controller
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Ugh, don't remind me of Tin Mage. Seeing level 54 Malta goons punching supposed Incarnates to death with their fists pissed me off like you wouldn't believe. And the Director himself isn't just out of place, he's also a hideously cheap fight. That's a very bad introduction to Incarnate-dom.|
Originally Posted by ketch
Spot on, Sam. This is exactly the issue that was raised with the Malta in the Tin Mage TF. They were just guys with guns while the players had just taken their first sip of Incarnate power. The players are a super powered force that needs to be facing off against a super powered threat. Those big robots in the Warworks are a nice start. Giant monsters like the Avatar of Hamidon are acceptable. A brain-washed army grunt? Nope.
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I have a counter-example, actually - the new Maria Jenkins ark. Now, I get that we were being allowed to fight all the Praetors before, but the way it's done now is so much more satisfying. What's keeping us from early victory isn't that our enemies are too strong, it's just that we keep missing the opportunity to save the Statesman. I'd get to a mission, take out all the Praetorian heavies and be essentially victorious, but it's still a loss because while I kicked ***, I didn't accomplish what I went there to do.
I really like the dialogue on the Praetorians, too. Marauder, especially. He fights with almost complete desperation. "Come on! Compute faster!" "No, I will NOT lose again!" "You win, but you're too late!" Honestly, right at this moment I can't think of a better way to put over the player strong and put a smile on my face walking out. Marauder is a bigshot. He's a meaningful fight. And yet the guy is obviously struggling. It shows me that I'm not just some wimp he expects to curb-stomp but I win by means of cheating with inspirations. It shows me that he's worried. A signature character is worried about fighting me, and if he sees enough danger in me to be worried, that's a compliment of the highest accord.
And that ain't even an Incarnate storyline! THIS is what Incarnates should be. This is how we should be treated - as the big guys, the big threats, the people even signature characters are wary of taking on, the people that, when we fight the big guys, they sweat bullets in the process.
Again, presentation. None of the Maria fights are easy. Marauder in particular is just evil when he uses Unstoppable. He kicked my *** when last I fought him, and damn near ran away with the victory. Functional ease isn't the problem. It's how we're presented as facing this threat, and whether it's with dignity or in disgrace that we face it.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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Oh look, it's the stupid "Ma( or StJ)/WP scrappers realitically shouldn't be relevant in this game so obviously you have super-powers even if you say you don't" argument. tralala.
I'm not even emotionally invested in the trials or anything. I just find the assetion that my characters have ascended to "PHENOMENAL COSMIC POWER" just because I want to play the game hilarious.
my batman is batman.
My superman is superman
I don't let the game change them because
They both exist in a game that has a hard time properly representing either idea.
I figure out why stuff works for myself.
Anyone Who wants to argue about my usual foolishness can find me here.
https://twitter.com/Premmytwit
I'll miss you all.
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Okay.|
Originally Posted by Premonitions
Oh look, it's the stupid "Ma( or StJ)/WP scrappers realitically shouldn't be relevant in this game so obviously you have super-powers even if you say you don't" argument. tralala.
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Can you say that in English?
I have characters that totally can be killed by a lucky, well-placed rock to the dome, and characters that can. They both have to be played in the same game so I don't freak out about such trivialities.
Anyone Who wants to argue about my usual foolishness can find me here.
https://twitter.com/Premmytwit
I'll miss you all.
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You might, but I don't. Not by any definition of "superhero" that I subscribe to. No character calling themselves a superhero, much less an Incarnate of the Gods, should ever be killable by a lucky, well-placed rock to the head. The game engine, through a profound failure to understand its own genre conceits, allows such absurdities to occur, but that's Paragon's conception of my characters, not mine.|
Originally Posted by Premonitions
I have characters that totally can be killed by a lucky, well-placed rock to the dome...
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My choices are to accept these failures with quiet resignation, or participate in community efforts to discuss them and perhaps affect change. Hopefully I'm not the only one who sees the merits of the latter over the former.
NOR-RAD - 50 Rad/Rad/Elec Defender - Nikki Stryker - 50 DM/SR/Weap Scrapper - Iron Marauder - 50 Eng/Eng/Pow Blaster
Lion of Might - 50 SS/Inv/Eng Tanker - Darling Nikkee - 50 (+3) StJ/WP/Eng Brute - Ice Giant Kurg - 36 Ice/Storm Controller
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I would note that the former set of characters probably are not doing Incarnate content, in that case.|
Originally Posted by Premonitions
I have characters that totally can be killed by a lucky, well-placed rock to the dome, and characters that can. They both have to be played in the same game so I don't freak out about such trivialities.
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Assuming those weaknesses mean so much to you, of course.
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I agree with this. As much as I think Maelstrom is super cool and a badass...it is a bit silly that you can fight him in Tips, as a Lt no less, then suddenly he becomes a super 54+2 AV. Of course..the obvious reason is he is in him world and empowered by that well again..but its still silly.
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Originally Posted by Winterminal
I happen to very much like the TPN trial, considering I am not a huge fan of Incarnate trials in general. I can hop on one once a week and make nice progress towards unlocking slots and crafting powers. But it is bad enough to be smacked around by the same guy I smack around in tip missions, but I also lose a chunk of xp to a rock and a Molotov cocktail?! Yeah, THAT'S making me feel like I have progressed in power...
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Precisely. You can write whatever weaknesses you want into your characters, but some content simply doesn't work for some characters. A street-level detective hero has no place trading punches giant war machines armed with chainguns and surviving rockets to the face.|
Originally Posted by Lazarillo
I would note that the former set of characters probably are not doing Incarnate content, in that case.
Assuming those weaknesses mean so much to you, of course. |
This is doubly true when you've drunk from the Well and are now a god who, in a future reality, will be powerful enough to take on the whole of the Freedom Phalanx and not even break a sweat.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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Sam and I approach the game from almost opposite sides of the Spectrum [sic] - he wants to be the Sentry, I want to be Daredevil I guess - and it's quite unusual for us to be in such close agreement but I think we're in complete agreement here.
It doesn't matter what level of power you are, for something to feel awesome and astounding, it has to feel like you've come up against some kind of challenge, there's an epic battle and you walk (or limp) away having won a very close, and exciting fight.
This game is called "CIty of Heroes" but there's nothing heroic about going through the entire game, progressively getting stronger, facing bigger, tougher, meaner foes, and then being felled by a few civvies wielding rocks. Maelstrom in the TPN is bad enough as others have pointed out, but at least it can be (weakly) argued that he's gone through some level progression since you last met, just as you have.
But the rocks? It's simply an unacceptably bad bit of story telling.
Thelonious Monk
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There you go, then. Mechanically, what happens is that the Scryers debuff your defenses *and* resistances making you vulnerable to the rock attack, but in-story, you can just treat it as the Scryers incorporating the rock-throwing into their mental attacks.|
Originally Posted by Scythus
It really does appear to be a case of the Seers stacking. Here are the stats on the Seers in question:
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I'm not sure how the devs could "fix" this unless they just removed the damage from rock attacks altogether. That said, I agree with ClawsandEffect. If they removed the challenge, people would just be complaining about how it's too easy. |
"Why are you here? You're not doing anything useful. Every decent citizen hates you. Look at them yelling and throwing things. You're worthless and you should just lay down and *die*."
Adjust as needed for whatever deepest fears your character has.
Character index
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This makes sense. It's a shame we don't have some sort of 'insecure' emote that could activate every time a rock hits without rooting us to show it.|
Originally Posted by Silver Gale
There you go, then. Mechanically, what happens is that the Scryers debuff your defenses *and* resistances making you vulnerable to the rock attack, but in-story, you can just treat it as the Scryers incorporating the rock-throwing into their mental attacks.
"Why are you here? You're not doing anything useful. Every decent citizen hates you. Look at them yelling and throwing things. You're worthless and you should just lay down and *die*." Adjust as needed for whatever deepest fears your character has. |
Eco
MArcs:
The Echo, Arc ID 1688 (5mish, easy, drama)
The Audition, Arc ID 221240 (6 mish, complex mech, comedy)
Storming Citadel, Arc ID 379488 (lowbie, 1mish, 10-min timed)
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Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
[The Incarnate System is] Jack Emmert all over again, only this time it's not "1 hero = 3 white minions" it's "1 hero = 3 white rocks."
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This is really the crux of it. I have no problem with my characters being weak and being overpowered by incredibly tough odds. In the beginning. We all have to start somewhere, and even if I were to claim that my character has the power to shape the universe to her will (which I have), I still have to start her off as a weakling and explain why that is. In the beginning, we're all street-level heroes who fight thugs and gangsters and whose reach doesn't go much beyond the neighbourhood. That's normal, good, in fact.|
Originally Posted by Scarlet Shocker
This game is called "CIty of Heroes" but there's nothing heroic about going through the entire game, progressively getting stronger, facing bigger, tougher, meaner foes, and then being felled by a few civvies wielding rocks. Maelstrom in the TPN is bad enough as others have pointed out, but at least it can be (weakly) argued that he's gone through some level progression since you last met, just as you have.
But the rocks? It's simply an unacceptably bad bit of story telling. |
However, sooner or later, the game has to progress, it has to grow bigger and bolder and expand both our powers and our horizons. At some point, we can no longer be street level heroes who fight gangbangers and carjackers, because we grow powerful enough to take on the bigger world-wide foes, and eventually even cosmic foes. To match them, our powers have to grow, and eventually we need to grow to be on their levels. After a certain point, "I hit it with my axe" just doesn't cut it... Actually literally speaking. We end up having to explain why we're able to cut heavily armoured mechs, we need to explain why we're able to survive taking ballistic missiles to the face, we need to be able to explain how we can singularly best the greatest combatants of an entire dimension. We need to explain how we can defeat A GOD in single combat.
Mind you, I don't look down on street-level heroes. I don't see them as pathetic and quaint or a lower level of super hero progression. A tough cop who's taken up arms to stop the violent gang wars in his home town is very respectable, and his not being able to just shoot Cthulu in the face and save all of reality isn't something to be ashamed of. Everyone has his limitations, and the people who become famous for fighting street crime are usually surpassing their own limitations in the adventures they have.
Nevertheless, there is a totem pole of super power, and street level crime is towards the bottom of it. If you want your hero to be a street level fighter, then that's fine - lock him to that level and keep him there. I respect that. But once you move up the totem pole, you have to accept the escalation that comes with it. When you're fighting ancient gods, space aliens and armies of robots, this comes with certain prerequisites. You're expected to be able to take them, you're expected to be able to survive, you're expected to be able to perform on that level. And, really, the game doesn't let you not perform. To GET to that level, you have to have earned the power to BE at that level. To claim your Incarnate is a street-level fighter who only has his fists and his wits is to defy the basic structure of progression in this game.
When the Incarnate system first came out, many people said "Well, most of my characters won't become Incarnates. It doesn't make sense for them to be Incarnate." This I respect, because to these people, their character's in-story power level was more important than orange numbers on the screen, and they kept their characters to the power level they were supposed to have. That's just fine, and that IS an option. But once we have gone down the path of the Incarnate, we can no longer claim we just aren't, because that's missing the point of both the system and the storyline entirely.
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I'm reminded of the fight between Alucard and Luke Valentine. Luke fancies himself the strongest vampire in the world and challenges Alucard. He seems to be winning, until Alucard "gets serious," turns into something with a lot of eyes and shoots off both of Vincent's legs. Then comes the infamous few lines:
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| What's wrong? You've only had a couple of legs blown off. Come get me! Summon your familiars! Transform your body! Regenerate your legs and get up!!! The night is young! Hurry! Hurry! Hurry! The real fun's just begun! ... I see, you're just like the others, then? You're nothing but a worthless lump of flesh. You're nothing but dog food. So... That's what he was after all? Damn punk. |
I have nothing against people not wanting to be gods. The game permits it. But if you shoot for the top levels of power, you need to accept that this means you will HAVE the top levels of power.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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Hey, why don't we just turn these Praetorian citizens and rocks on the Battalion. Have the Seers tell them how lousy they are and then they get beaned by rocks and drop. Coming Storm solved!
Do people even realize how ridiculous that rationalization sounds?
I'm getting tired of people making excuses for poor writing and bad design.
This is why we keep getting handed crap. Because people keep making excuses for the devs having mundanes armed with rocks killing demigods. Nothing is too outrageous to defend when you're a fanboy.
The content in question is poorly designed for characters who are said to have the power of the gods. Period. That's a problem because Incarnate trials are designed for Incarnates, NOT for low level street vigilantes who by all rights should turn off their XP and stay in Kings Row. Getting beaned by a civilian hurled rock is not godlike, no matter what excuse you want to make for the developers.
The developers promised universe shaking cosmic challenges. These trials are NOT THAT. There's nothing cosmic about facing the same crap we once dealt with in the Outbreak tutorial; sticks and stones.
Instead of moving into a new sphere and operating on grander cosmic scale, we were handed a tower defense mini game about killing escaping mental patients. And this is half way through the Incarnate system. Even if they do wheel in the vaguely threatening Battalion tomorrow, that doesn't remove the mundane rocks, moldy War Walkers and all the other symptoms of the poorly thought out design the game suffers from.
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As dirty as I feel saying it, I agree with Johnny_Butane. I personally feel that all of the Incarnate trials (as well as Apex/Tin Mage) that we have currently should have been wrapped up as solo/single-team content in a story arc with the only Incarnate part of it being taking on Tyrant after he was retconned out of the mission he appeared in before.
After taking on "godlike" power, we should be fighting "godlike" things. Not something that's getting an empowerment from something that was empowered by someone that was empowered by the the source of our power as well... and yet somehow is still more powerful than us despite all of the dilution. Heck, my EM/Elec Brute has already defeated a god (in Scirocco's patron arc) and handed another Incarnate their head on a silver platter (Recluse), and she did so without 23 other people - or, for that matter, even one extra person - hanging around.
It's not a good sense of progressing power; it is, as has been listed here repeatedly, a sense of horrible regression. This should not be Incarnate content - the Praetorian story could easily have been wrapped up like this without needing to tie into the "endgame". And if this has to be Incarnate content, the civilians should spawn at -50 and be unable to harm anything more than your reputation in the trial.
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Originally Posted by PleaseRecycle
it has gone from unconscionable to downright appalling that we have no way of measuring our characters' wetness.
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Originally Posted by Brillig
It's hard to beat the entertainment value of Whackjob Wednesdays.
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It really does appear to be a case of the Seers stacking. Here are the stats on the Seers in question:
Scryer
Scyers are among the elite of Mother Mayhem's Seers. They make up the rank and file combatants among the elite. They specialize in tearing their foes' minds apart with their mental assault while peering into the mind of their foes to find their weakness.
Level: 40+
Powers
Psionic Dart Ranged, Minor DMG(Psionic), Target -Recharge
This basic attack does moderate Psionic damage, and can slightly reduce a target's attack speed. Damage: Moderate, Recharge: Fast
Reveal Weakness Ranged Foe -DEF, -RES (All)
The Scryer peers deep into their victim's mind and finds what they are most vulnerable to. Targets affected by this power have their defense and damage resistance reduced for a short time. Recharge: Long
Subdual Ranged, Moderate DOT(Psionic), Foe Immobilize
Subdual deals moderate Psionic damage and may leave the targeted foe Immobilized for a brief time. Immobilized foes cannot move but can still attack. Damage: Moderate, Recharge: Moderate
Resistance Auto: +20% Res(Psi), +4% Def(Melee, Ranged)
Seers are able to predict their foes' incoming attacks granting them a minor defense buff, and are quite resistant to psychic damage.
I'm not sure how the devs could "fix" this unless they just removed the damage from rock attacks altogether. That said, I agree with ClawsandEffect. If they removed the challenge, people would just be complaining about how it's too easy.