Shield Defense fixed to be able to use two handed weapons?
By
80sBaby,
Posted on: 2011-12-09 08:59 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
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There is a technical limitation to giving us a sheath. The current tech does not allow them to change the appearance of a costume piece based on whether a weapon is drawn or not. Rather than have the weapon still be in the sheath AND in your hand at the same time (which would generate just as many complaints as pulling them out of thin does, if not more), they have opted to continue using "hammer-space."|
Originally Posted by Santorican
Doesn't change the fact that it still looks bad. Where is my sheath or quiver? |
Got no answer for you about quivers, though.
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| Read the above post. How many years had people been asking to color their powers but the developers kept saying that it wasn't possible due to mechanics with the game engine and that it would require a lot of work but it did happen. |
*Due to enormous outcry, they have reconsidered and decided to see if they can make Titan Weapons work as a Stalker set after all. There was not a similar outcry when Shield Defense was released. If you can get the grassroots support going, maybe you can convince the Devs to change their stance on Shield Defense. However, your current attitude during debate is unlikely to win you support from people who are on the fence and unlikely to sway any who oppose you.
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How would you hold and position the shield as needed if both hands are occupied with a two-handed sword?
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Originally Posted by Santorican
Are there any plans on making it so Shield Defense can be used with two handed weapons? Its been quite sometime since this issue arose and I would love to make a Spines, Katana, TW, DB, Staff/Shield Scrapper.
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No, they still have better things to do with their time and resources |
Originally Posted by Santorican
So you're saying it could happen now that they have more people and resources?
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The graphic for a sheathed weapon isn't there, but that isn't an issue with the set being illogical. Just a technical limitation. Properly using a shield while wielding a two-handed axe? That's illogical.
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Originally Posted by SinisterDirge
And are folks really arguing that you can't possibly carry a shield while having both hands wrapped around a weapon because it isn't realistic, but pulling a giant freaking axe out of your back pocket is? C'mon.
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Is there any game you can actually use a shield with a 2-handed weapon? Even a legacy fantasy JRPG? I can't recall any...
My character in Skyrim can't btw 
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Originally Posted by Kioshi
Is there any game you can actually use a shield with a 2-handed weapon? Even a legacy fantasy JRPG? I can't recall any...
My character in Skyrim can't btw |
Can't even use magic and dual-wield there. I never bothered with the 2-handers there, so I dunno about using them with magic...probably not, though.
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The problem boils down to: 1 hand for a shield + 2 hands for a two-hand weapon = 3 hands. When we get playable 3 handed aliens in the game or perhaps prehensile tails, maybe THEN you can revisit this subject.
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Originally Posted by Santorican
Are there any plans on making it so Shield Defense can be used with two handed weapons? Its been quite sometime since this issue arose and I would love to make a Spines, Katana, TW, DB, Staff/Shield Scrapper.
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The weird thing is the Shield Defense set doesn't fit with conventional balance concepts. The general idea, at least in fantasy games, is that shield + weapon gets you more defense than two-handed weapon. That's reasonable and also provides a balancing measure between offense and defense. You want more offense, take the two-handed weapon. More defense, take the shield.
But in City, Shield is actually one of the better offensive defense powersets. And in the most direct comparison you can make of Broadsword and Katana, Katana isn't any stronger than Broadsword. It's arguably slightly better because it's faster, but only slightly. And Shield isn't any better or worse than other defense sets that don't require you to give up a hand for it.
So there's no real balance reason to pick sword and board over a two-hander in City. It makes the current limitations weird. A Broadsword/Shield scrapper has more offense (and possibly more defense) than a Katana/SR, but you can't do Katana/Shield. Why? ...Cuz.
I think I'd be in favor of the option where you can choose a two-hander weapon, you just won't get a shield, and the defense set will just be a general aura thing like every other defense set. Right now, the only reason there's any limitations at all is cosmetic.
De minimis non curat Lex Luthor.
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No, but WOW lets you dual wield 2 handers with the right high end talents as a warrior
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Originally Posted by Kioshi
Is there any game you can actually use a shield with a 2-handed weapon? Even a legacy fantasy JRPG? I can't recall any...
My character in Skyrim can't btw |
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I don't think anyone ever made any argument that this was balance-related. |
Originally Posted by Bosstone
The weird thing is the Shield Defense set doesn't fit with conventional balance concepts. The general idea, at least in fantasy games, is that shield + weapon gets you more defense than two-handed weapon. That's reasonable and also provides a balancing measure between offense and defense. You want more offense, take the two-handed weapon. More defense, take the shield.
But in City, Shield is actually one of the better offensive defense powersets. And in the most direct comparison you can make of Broadsword and Katana, Katana isn't any stronger than Broadsword. It's arguably slightly better because it's faster, but only slightly. And Shield isn't any better or worse than other defense sets that don't require you to give up a hand for it. So there's no real balance reason to pick sword and board over a two-hander in City. It makes the current limitations weird. A Broadsword/Shield scrapper has more offense (and possibly more defense) than a Katana/SR, but you can't do Katana/Shield. Why? ...Cuz. I think I'd be in favor of the option where you can choose a two-hander weapon, you just won't get a shield, and the defense set will just be a general aura thing like every other defense set. Right now, the only reason there's any limitations at all is cosmetic. |
This is mainly just an issue that-
-You need to make an alternate animation set for each attack powerset to make it compatible with shield. That takes resources, and no small amount of them.
-Some powersets- which conceptually or logically use two hands for their attack- make less sense than others to be paired with shield. Rethinking these sets as to be shield-compatible becomes even more work and of questionable value.
-Resources are finite.
-Resources invested in that item of questionable value are resources NOT done in something less questionable.
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WoW (and many other MMO's, to be honest) also has single-handed weapons sized in such a way that no human could possibly wield them single-handedly and stylized in ways that they wouldn't be functional regardless.|
Originally Posted by Tyger42
No, but WOW lets you dual wield 2 handers with the right high end talents as a warrior
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Granted, the general 'suspension of disbelief' of the superhero genre means that any and all of that are valid ideas here.
I have this great superhero-y idea for a telekinetic weapons-master that dual-wields titan weapons with his mind while using a shield to protect himself and I won't be satisfied with the devs until they stop preventing me from playing the character I want to play.
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Didn't say they did. I brought up the argument. Balance is usually the reason for the trade-off between sword and board and two-hander in games, but it doesn't exist in City.|
Originally Posted by Chase_Arcanum
I don't think anyone ever made any argument that this was balance-related.
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It's not something I feel terribly strongly about, but it is sort of an odd thing.
De minimis non curat Lex Luthor.
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Old style dikuMUDs had a "wielded" position, "shield" position, and a "held" position as part of the default equipment slots. You could wield a two-handed weapon (since it didn't differentiate one- or two-handed), hold another, and use a shield (no matter how large). Plus you could cast any spell you knew while doing so. |
Originally Posted by Kioshi
Is there any game you can actually use a shield with a 2-handed weapon? Even a legacy fantasy JRPG? I can't recall any...
My character in Skyrim can't btw |
Later MUDs added even more spots for extra silliness, but those are just default settings.
Edit to add: There was also a "light" position that you held to use. So you could hold a light, wield a two-handed weapon in one hand, and hold a two-handed weapon in the other (potentially dual-wielding both, but that's not stock Diku) while wearing a shield. And still do all of your normal skills. Realism? What's that?
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As far as Katana/Shied goes - katana has several animation issues as is with how the weapons model is held.
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You can't, but as you know you can dual wield magic (one type in each hand, or double fireball or whatever) or use magic in one hand and a one handed weapon on another.|
Originally Posted by Furio
Can't even use magic and dual-wield there. I never bothered with the 2-handers there, so I dunno about using them with magic...probably not, though.
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Which is fine by me, I use a bow most of the time (so two hands) and switching to magic is like the redraw in CoX when you use 'magic' (like, Tar Patch on a weapon wielding corr/def) since it's quite fast to switch (at least in how it affects you in combat, the switching menu is kinda lame even using the favorites option because you have to pause the game, it's single player anyway).
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And yet people get upset at those of us who want to play Dual Pistols/Defensive Set characters, and claim it doesnt make sense. |
Originally Posted by Chase_Arcanum
WoW (and many other MMO's, to be honest) also has single-handed weapons sized in such a way that no human could possibly wield them single-handedly and stylized in ways that they wouldn't be functional regardless.
Granted, the general 'suspension of disbelief' of the superhero genre means that any and all of that are valid ideas here. I have this great superhero-y idea for a telekinetic weapons-master that dual-wields titan weapons with his mind while using a shield to protect himself and I won't be satisfied with the devs until they stop preventing me from playing the character I want to play. |
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You can make a Katana/Shield user!|
Originally Posted by Bosstone
The weird thing is the Shield Defense set doesn't fit with conventional balance concepts. The general idea, at least in fantasy games, is that shield + weapon gets you more defense than two-handed weapon. That's reasonable and also provides a balancing measure between offense and defense. You want more offense, take the two-handed weapon. More defense, take the shield.
But in City, Shield is actually one of the better offensive defense powersets. And in the most direct comparison you can make of Broadsword and Katana, Katana isn't any stronger than Broadsword. It's arguably slightly better because it's faster, but only slightly. And Shield isn't any better or worse than other defense sets that don't require you to give up a hand for it. So there's no real balance reason to pick sword and board over a two-hander in City. It makes the current limitations weird. A Broadsword/Shield scrapper has more offense (and possibly more defense) than a Katana/SR, but you can't do Katana/Shield. Why? ...Cuz. I think I'd be in favor of the option where you can choose a two-hander weapon, you just won't get a shield, and the defense set will just be a general aura thing like every other defense set. Right now, the only reason there's any limitations at all is cosmetic. |
Broadsword has a Katana weapon skin!
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Yeah, the Tsoo Katana, which is like a stick of metal with some cloth wrapped around the end. |
Originally Posted by BrandX
You can make a Katana/Shield user!
Broadsword has a Katana weapon skin! |
Ooogleh.
De minimis non curat Lex Luthor.
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Still makes the concept possible.
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Originally Posted by Bosstone
Yeah, the Tsoo Katana, which is like a stick of metal with some cloth wrapped around the end.
Ooogleh. |
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I think we may be talking at cross-purposes. I used Katana and Broadsword because they're very similar, yet one is one-handed and can be used with Shield and one is two-handed. Mechanically I can't see any reason this would be so; the decision to exclude some sets from being paired with Shield was an aesthetic one, not a balance one. It's similar to the decision to not give Stalkers Titan Weapons.|
Originally Posted by BrandX
Still makes the concept possible.
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It's a shame, because Shield has some interesting powers that no other defense powerset has. It's also not a very big deal, since there's just enough overlap that you can approximate it well enough by taking SR or Energy and throwing in Spring Attack.
De minimis non curat Lex Luthor.
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It wasn't a themetic reason, or at least it wasn't mainly a themetic reason, it was because it can't be done with the current way character models are setup.
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Originally Posted by Bosstone
I think we may be talking at cross-purposes. I used Katana and Broadsword because they're very similar, yet one is one-handed and can be used with Shield and one is two-handed. Mechanically I can't see any reason this would be so; the decision to exclude some sets from being paired with Shield was an aesthetic one, not a balance one. It's similar to the decision to not give Stalkers Titan Weapons.
It's a shame, because Shield has some interesting powers that no other defense powerset has. It's also not a very big deal, since there's just enough overlap that you can approximate it well enough by taking SR or Energy and throwing in Spring Attack. |
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Then can we get a "Two Handed Defense" set? I dunno, call it "Weapon Guard" or some such only usable by 2 handed powersets? Titan Weapons, Katana, Dual Blades, Claws, Spines and I guess Stone Melee (it had to have new animations made for its mallet powers).
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i can't tell... are you being facetious?
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Originally Posted by Leo_G
Then can we get a "Two Handed Defense" set? I dunno, call it "Weapon Guard" or some such only usable by 2 handed powersets? Titan Weapons, Katana, Dual Blades, Claws, Spines and I guess Stone Melee (it had to have new animations made for its mallet powers).
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Ah, but neither do you.|
Originally Posted by Santorican
Because you don't have a valid argument to use.
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"I want." doesn't cut it.
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