I'd consider doing three things:
1) scaling aggro cap for tanks up to 50 at level 50. AT threat mod increased to 5.
Tankers should be able to hold more aggro, more easily than other ATs.
2) raise damage cap by 100%.
This improves a tank's ability to build for increased damage and also works with the next addition.
3) Add two inherent mutually exclusive toggles :
Inspiring presence - 50 ft AoE that effects up to 16 targets(including the tank) but only stacks up to 4 times. Effected targets get 5% +maxhp and 5% debuff resistance to all debuffs and mag 1 mez protection to hold/stun.
Tanker's Charge - user gets 50%+ damage and -25% defense. The Damage buff scales down 3.6% for each person on the team.
The two toggles are basically a variation on the updated vigilance. Because defenders are the other 'team-centric' AT there is precedent for an inherent that benefits the solo player with an alternate benefit in a team situation.
I am an ebil markeeter and will steal your moneiz ...correction stole your moneiz. I support keeping the poor down because it is impossible to make moneiz in this game.
Hey guys,
i have only read a few posts based on this so if i reiterate something someone says i apoligise but i have an idea on the set,brutes have fury, brutes should not be nerfed, instead, if tankers get a buff, it should be applicable to their design, now most power sets are getting redone or brought with certain mechanics to make them work, even AT's have their own mechanic, so maybe the tankers mechanic could be enhanced or changed to be called Tanker's Might.
for every foe in melee range their damage raises up to 10 foes but it shouldnt be enough to break the damage cap.
The idea should be good enough to get enough damage out of it more than before.
let me know what you guys think.
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Originally Posted by Redoptic
In other words, though few if anyone is asking for it, don't be shocked if the Brute is again reduced while the devs are looking at the Tanker, why?
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Quote:
| they should not be as capable of withstanding damage as a Tanker. -Castle |
Good thing they aren't capable, even now, of withstanding damage as a Tanker.
Not even FA or Ela against their favored damage types!
25% Higher Base DEF
25% Higher Base RES
25% Higher Base HP
Higher HP Cap
Higher Status protection on some sets
Higher Debuff Resistances on some sets
Its easy for a lot of players (not necessarily you) to gloss over that and pretend like it doesn't exist though, and big orange numbers are oh-so-easy to see.
While we are quoting Castle, let's bring back this quote about Bruising:
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Originally Posted by Castle
Reposted from Beta Forums:
Why was Bruising implemented as a 20% damage resistance debuff rather than a straight up increase in Tankers damage across the board? What benefits does that bring that the later approach does not?
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Do we want another gem?
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Originally Posted by Castle
Reposted from Beta Forums:
Taunt is not "mandatory" for Tankers and nothing in this change makes it so. A Tanker is not meant to be 100% effective as an aggro magnet, just as a controller is not meant to be 100% effective as Crowd Control. The fact that these AT's come as close as they do is pretty darn cool, though, don't you think? Super even. |
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I am just an unfrozen caveman, your world is strange and confusing to me. But even I know that if two AT's have the same caps for Def and Res then they are "capable" of achieving the same level of Def and Res. |
Originally Posted by Deus_Otiosus
[/COLOR][/B]Good thing they aren't capable, even now, of withstanding damage as a Tanker.
Not even FA or Ela against their favored damage types! 25% Higher Base DEF 25% Higher Base RES 25% Higher Base HP Higher HP Cap Higher Status protection on some sets Higher Debuff Resistances on some sets |
Now Tankers do have a higher max HP, but they are not guaranteed to reach it.
So a brute can be buffed to having the same Def, Res, and HP as a tanker. They are capable of withstanding damage as a Tanker. They may not do so in all cases, but they are capable of it.
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Nearly the same hit points: http://wiki.cohtitan.com/wiki/Hit_points|
Originally Posted by dugfromthearth
So a brute can be buffed to having the same Def, Res, and HP as a tanker. They are capable of withstanding damage as a Tanker. They may not do so in all cases, but they are capable of it.
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Tankers cap at 3534, Brutes cap at 3212.7 hit points.
Throwing darts at the board to see if something sticks.....
Come show your resolve and fight my brute!
Tanks: Gauntlet, the streak breaker and you!
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Originally Posted by PapaSlade
Rangle's right....this is fun.
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Originally Posted by dugfromthearth
I am just an unfrozen caveman, your world is strange and confusing to me. But even I know that if two AT's have the same caps for Def and Res then they are "capable" of achieving the same level of Def and Res.
Now Tankers do have a higher max HP, but they are not guaranteed to reach it. So a brute can be buffed to having the same Def, Res, and HP as a tanker. They are capable of withstanding damage as a Tanker. They may not do so in all cases, but they are capable of it. |
In one breath you managed to infer that Brutes have too much mitigation because they are capable of achieving the same level of DEF and RES as a Tanker while simultaneously downplaying Tanker mitigation by stating how Tankers are not guaranteed to reach their max HP.
You also left out how the Brute has a whole lot further to get to their Res caps from buffing than the Tanker does, and how in the case of two equal builds under the same circumstances & buffs the Tanker will always have more mitigation, because they will have more HP.
Why is it we only see what Brutes are only potentially capable of as guaranteed and we see what Tankers are not guaranteed as iffy?
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I understand that there are people inclined more towards Brutes and Scrappers (not being offensive but your post history shows little interest in tanks) who don't care for Tankers getting attention because they are already capable of withstanding the most damage without buffs.|
Originally Posted by Deus_Otiosus
[/COLOR][/B]Good thing they aren't capable, even now, of withstanding damage as a Tanker.
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But here's a reality everyone here is keenly aware of, and certainly the developers as well:
Death is the best mitigation period.
Against everything but an AV[s] the Brutes much higher damage allows it to defeat targets faster then an equivalent Tanker thus limiting damage sustained.
I have many 50 tanks and brutes and some scrappers, and my most played brute is a stone/stone while my least played tank is also a stone/stone, and the reason for that is simple, with one speed boost the s/s brute becomes a one character Armageddon, while the tanker with the same s-b continues being indestructible but is taking twice as long as the brute defeating enemies.
So make whatever point you want for your AT choices but let's be real here, the Brute came from the Tank and was made possibly more fun to play then Tankers, and all of that was done before the concept of making a Hero side Brute was intended.
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You're right, I'm more inclined to those two ATs because I'm willing to take the risk of dying more often to deal more damage. (FWIW I'm more inclined towards Corrs at this point because they are more useful than any melee AT).|
Originally Posted by Redoptic
I understand that there are people inclined more towards Brutes and Scrappers (not being offensive but your post history shows little interest in tanks) who don't care for Tankers getting attention because they are already capable of withstanding the most damage without buffs.
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I have no problem with that trade off.
The Tanker has guaranteed better mitigation hands down.
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Originally Posted by Redoptic
But here's a reality everyone here is keenly aware of, and certainly the developers as well:
Death is the best mitigation period. |
Some enemies just don't die fast enough. I run into this on Incarnate trials a lot, and then there are those pesky AVs that show up from time to time.
In fact I think a lot of what we see on Incarnate trials was specifically added to separate Tankers and Brutes.
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Originally Posted by Redoptic
So make whatever point you want for your AT choices but let's be real here, the Brute came from the Tank and was made possibly more fun to play then Tankers, and all of that was done before the concept of making a Hero side Brute was intended.
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Ultimately what I have a problem with is people being convinced that there is no trade off, and that the Tankers mitigation is irrelevant.
If you think Tankers need more damage, fine, tell me how much of that "irrelevant" mitigation you will sacrifice for more damage? (No one ever answers this)
Or
Do you think Tankers aren't tough enough?
Which is it then? You (the general you) can't have it both ways. They can't both have not enough mitigation AND have a level of mitigation that is irrelevant.
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So sorry I am late to the thread but here is my feed back. For me aside from WP and Stone Armor the other sets do not have enough survivability for me to call them "Tanker". Although I havent tried SR or Shields for tanks its going to be the same as it is for a scrapper or brute once its softcapped for the most part. I still think there is room for making them all tougher or at least closer to WP. Next issue with the tank sets is how they look. I cant stand Stone or Ice armor due to the look. If that were different I might be willing to give it a shot to 50. The issue with stone is that the survivability does not justify the speed and recharge penalty when WP is closer to it in survivability but has no real vulnerabilies. Lastly from an offensive perspective I just see no reason to ever make a tanker because of the damage different between brutes and them. Once you look at how things are in the incarnete trials everyone is super squishie there even stone tanks. So why be a tank if your going to die just like a blaster anyways. Thats just my opinion of things. If we do get more powersets then we need to have a tanker only gimmick otherwise there is no point to play them.
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Originally Posted by Ultimus
I asked if he's ever looked into it and he said he has not but he is willing to consider it. I thought I'd stop by before sending off a reply at what he needs to look at. Tankers don't have an egregious level of underperformance but there is room for improvement. With that being said, here's my questions:
What problems do you feel Tankers have? Why do you feel this is a problem? What would you do to Tankers to improve them? Why? And what quantifiable data would you use to justify such a change? |
Bump and Grind Bane/SoA
Kenja No Ishi Earth/Empathy Controller
Legendary Sannin Ninja/Pain Mastermind
Entoxicated Ninja/PSN Mastermind
Ninja Ryukenden Kat/WP Scrapper
Hellish Thoughts Fire/PSI Dominator
Thank You Devs for Merits!!!!
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Wait...hold the phone. Stone and WILLPOWER? |
Originally Posted by EvilRyu
For me aside from WP and Stone Armor the other sets do not have enough survivability for me to call them "Tanker".
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I could see if you'd said Elec, since the resists there are incredible and you can layer a softcap on top of that.
I could easily see Invuln.
But Willpower?
Just gonna give you a funny look and leave it at that.
Clicking on the linked image above will take you off the City of Heroes site. However, the guides will be linked back here.
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Originally Posted by Hyperstrike
Just gonna give you a funny look and leave it at that. |
You should also give him an education on the difference between Brute/Scrapper SD & Tanker SD.
I'll post this and see if he can see the difference. (note, you can take out the very pricey stuff and still get the same base results overall)
3100 HP, before OWTS. 3100
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Why did you leave out Invul? 50% DDR, 25% End/Rec Res, 20% slow resistance, capped S/L, capped Def with IO's...
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Originally Posted by EvilRyu
So sorry I am late to the thread but here is my feed back. For me aside from WP and Stone Armor the other sets do not have enough survivability for me to call them "Tanker". Although I havent tried SR or Shields for tanks its going to be the same as it is for a scrapper or brute once its softcapped for the most part. I still think there is room for making them all tougher or at least closer to WP. Next issue with the tank sets is how they look. I cant stand Stone or Ice armor due to the look. If that were different I might be willing to give it a shot to 50. The issue with stone is that the survivability does not justify the speed and recharge penalty when WP is closer to it in survivability but has no real vulnerabilies. Lastly from an offensive perspective I just see no reason to ever make a tanker because of the damage different between brutes and them. Once you look at how things are in the incarnete trials everyone is super squishie there even stone tanks. So why be a tank if your going to die just like a blaster anyways. Thats just my opinion of things. If we do get more powersets then we need to have a tanker only gimmick otherwise there is no point to play them.
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[QUOTE=Deus_Otiosus;4028072]You should also give him an education on the difference between Brute/Scrapper SD & Tanker SD.
I'll post this and see if he can see the difference. (note, you can take out the very pricey stuff and still get the same base results overall)
3100 HP, before OWTS. 3100
Only seeing 2725 without OWTS.
Could be an error on your side. Could be an import error on mine.
Clicking on the linked image above will take you off the City of Heroes site. However, the guides will be linked back here.
Quote:
Accolades need to be on. |
Originally Posted by Hyperstrike
Only seeing 2725 without OWTS.
Could be an error on your side. Could be an import error on mine. |
(I think I had them off when I exported)
I am still trying to figure out how WP is second to Granite armor? Am I calculating wrong? (Not trying to poke fun or demean his post) I cannot seem to surpass Invul.
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Originally Posted by EvilRyu
Once you look at how things are in the incarnete trials everyone is super squishie there even stone tanks. So why be a tank if your going to die just like a blaster anyways. Thats just my opinion of things.
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Luckily, your opinion has completely deviated from the reality of incarnate trials the rest of us play in.
I fail to see why should we improve the only class (maybe along with Blasters) that is actually performing as it should.
If you think about it, the game was way more balanced back in SO's days. IOs are too good and too much fun to be skipped or ignored, but it is the main reason why some ATs are losing their uniqueness and being replaced -or not so needed- by others.
Now, I'm not saying IOs and Incarnates aren't a good thing - they are and it's the only reason why this game still lives. What I'm saying is IO's should've been made AT specific so that a Scrapper would never be as tough as a Tank; or a Controller wouldn't possibly be able to MELT +4/8 spawns this easily. And so on.
@False Fiction - Virtue / Defiant
Current projects - [Glaciologist - Ill/Cold Troller] [Cloudshaper - Storm/Dark Def] [Harald Wartooth - Elec/Psi Domi]
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I'd likely put WP and Invuln in a tie for 2nd when it comes to straight mitigation on high end builds.
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Originally Posted by Ultimus
I am still trying to figure out how WP is second to Granite armor? Am I calculating wrong? (Not trying to poke fun or demean his post) I cannot seem to surpass Invul.
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Why Blasters? Empathy Sucks.
So, you want to be Mental?
What the hell? Let's buff defenders.
Tactics are for those who do not have a big enough hammer. Wisdom is knowing how big your hammer is.
Up tanker Threat! I hated seeing my Ice/Ice Tanker have aggro pulled off her by a Fire/Shield Scrapper, even though I ran and got the attention of the AV first, had 2 DMG auras, punchvoke and Taunt all going.
Make it so Bruising can stack on a target from multiple Tankers (I still see people go "Multiple Tankers? *sigh*" when it comes to teaming).
Make Bruising 30% -Resist, and a little more likely to go off.
Increase their DMG cap.
And lastly...
Lower Brute max resist to 85. Raise Scrappers to 80.
BrandX Future Staff Fighter
The BrandX Collection
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I thought it was already a guaranteed thing.
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Originally Posted by BrandX
Make Bruising 30% -Resist, and a little more likely to go off.
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Nope it's resistible right now.
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Originally Posted by Clawstriker
I thought it was already a guaranteed thing.
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It depends on how high is high. If you can soft-cap Willpower, I think it can exceed Invuln on Tankers. But if you can't, the combination of high smash/lethal, perma dull pain, and invincibility is not easy to beat in most content.|
Originally Posted by StratoNexus
I'd likely put WP and Invuln in a tie for 2nd when it comes to straight mitigation on high end builds.
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Still, anyone who doesn't put Invuln up there as a strong tanking build has suspect judgment, and anyone who doesn't put Electric up there is probably extremely dated in their knowledge of the sets.
[Guide to Defense] [Scrapper Secondaries Comparison] [Archetype Popularity Analysis]
In one little corner of the universe, there's nothing more irritating than a misfile...
(Please support the best webcomic about a cosmic universal realignment by impaired angelic interference resulting in identity crisis angst. Or I release the pigmy water thieves.)
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That's non-sequitor. Resistability has nothing to do with the frequency at which it goes off. |
Originally Posted by Redoptic
Nope it's resistible right now.
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Bruising goes off 100% of the time the attack hits the target: I don't see a specific reason to make it go off more often than that, which would basically require making the effect autohit.
Can't make it unresistable. That would be horribly broken.
[Guide to Defense] [Scrapper Secondaries Comparison] [Archetype Popularity Analysis]
In one little corner of the universe, there's nothing more irritating than a misfile...
(Please support the best webcomic about a cosmic universal realignment by impaired angelic interference resulting in identity crisis angst. Or I release the pigmy water thieves.)
When I started this game I went straight to Tanks. It was the Archtype I perceived I played in every game previously. Even Armored Core. would build the heavier, slower, tougher, harder hitting characters. Only.... Okay. So, after 3 years on Brutes really glad those are available Blueside, and now I'm Blueside mostly.
But I did learn what Tanks seem to be in this game. To me, the Tank is a controller, with only one trick, agro, and the ability to really make that trick work. Sure, you can build them to be different, but that is the core design.
I read this above -"The main advantage of Tankers that they trade damage for, survivability, is all too often trivialized in newer content by 'cheating' mechanics. Situations are created that are lethal to all ATs, even Tankers, yet Tankers continue to deal less damage even when they're in just as much danger. I refer to unresisted damage, attacks and hazards that deal a HP percentage and the like. A Tanker can no more shrug off a Battle Maiden Sword Bomb than a Scrapper can, but the Scrapper will be outputting more damage regardless."
So, as has been pointed out, Tanks give up a lot of what Scrappers and Brutes get for the ability to survive and play the agro card constantly. Why not let them resist the unresistable? the only AT in the game that can do it. And those percent damage things? Scale it back for Tanks, only Tanks. make it 50% of what it does to everyone else, or 25%, or even 10%, or heck 75%, but throw them a bone. Just code back into the game the only serious power Tanks have that no one else gets, it takes two trucks running into them and 14 guys with machine guns to even get their attention.
I'm pulling this quote to reply from the Consolidated Tanker thread so as not to muddy that up.
See, this is why I resist nerf calls, because they are seductive.
Yes, this solution would instantly and completely affirm Tankers as the toughest AT.... But the price is severe.
Every Scrapper and Brute built to the softcap suddenly starts taking twice as much damage as they did before.
I've wanted to do it for YEARS and I finally got approval to do it, albeit with a slight caveat.
Reasoning, in a nutshell, is that they should not be as capable of withstanding damage as a Tanker. -Castle
In other words, though few if anyone is asking for it, don't be shocked if the Brute is again reduced while the devs are looking at the Tanker, why?