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I agree with your argument. And htank you for making it logically. You would have been better served looking at the TF where (sometimes sigh) a Brute has to tank all the Freedom Phalanx at once. Isn't it pretty rare that things go so bad on the Reichsmman that the lead hard point (tank or brute) has to take all those AVs at once? I have seen so many times the team ends up with all agro from the Freedom Phallax that i cannot count. And its never pretty Tank or Brute.
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Originally Posted by Scirion;4035955On to point three, "any Brute can tank 95% of the content in the game". Sure they can. (only being a tiny bit sarcastic here) A Brute can tank (for example) Reichsman just fine. But what happens when you add in another four level 54 AV's, two of which do Psi damage? Hint. Every one I've seen has a habit of dying. Not to say that NO Brute can do it. I'm sure there are builds around that *could* do it. It's just going to be [I
much harder[/I] to do than with a Tank.
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And here lies the problem!!|
Originally Posted by Scirion
Brutes were intended to provide near-Tanker survivability, while providing near-Scrapper level damage. Unless I'm mistaken, it's been proven on several occasions that with similar builds, a Brute at full Fury outputs roughly the same damage as a Scrapper. [/I]. |
Brutes are hybrids, they should sit between Tanks and Scrappers for both damage and survivability.
Currently their survivability is too close to Tanks and their damage often exceeds Scrappers.
They should have their resistance caps reduced so that they sit midway between the two and there damage needs to be reduced - the last time I looked at the Rikti Pylon list it was topped by Brutes with Scrappers bringing up the rear.
Where's that bat gone? /looks around.
L50s: Tanks: Cryofission - Ice/EM - Dr Celsius - Fire/Ice - Saint George - SD/SS | Controllers: Psichosis - Ill/Kin - Major Chaos - Ill/Stm | Scrappers - Neutron Crusader - DM/SR
Currently Levelling: Angelic Blade - BS/WP Scrapper | Seeds of Destruction - Plant/Kin Controller
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First comparing one attack to another even if ATs share that attack isn't cause for a balance issue when the powers numbers aren't out of whack and only work based on the stats of the AT. |
Originally Posted by Johnny_Butane
They get a TON of mitigation from their attacks. Namely, killing things before they can hurt you and various secondary effects on the attacks. For example, a Brute Foot Stomp mitigates damage BETTER than a Tanker Foot Stomp. They both knock the enemies on their butts just as good as the other, but the Brute inflicts more damage and has a greater chance of killing them. Usually, Tankers don't have the edge here because the numbers are the same, or they favor the Brute because the Brute is outputting more of the ultimate form of mitigation; dead enemies can't hurt you. The truth is, this pushes the actual survivability of Brutes closer to Tankers than looking at their defense, HP and resistance numbers would suggest. . |
Second, Brutes who are less survivable than Tanks, get to survive well because they can defeat things faster. EXACTLY!
Tanks survive longer because they're TOUGHER.
Yet things aren't so cut and dry. There are situations that are capable in the SO part of the game, all the way through IO / Incarnate possibilites that allow certain Tanker combos to out dps certain Brutes and certain Scrapper combos.
Even so, as its been asked of you, if as you state, Tanker mitigation is superfluous - which the same as saying unnecessary for 95% of the content, and damage is more necessary, how much mitigation should Tankers lose in order to have more damage?
Oh wait, you don't want them to lose any mitigation and you want only their damage cap raised yes? When raising that cap will not benefit most Tanker secondaries. You said that 95% of the game is 0/+1 so even with a kin buffer, you aren't going to always have every secondary at cap unless the Tanker is constantly herding up those sparsed out spawns and that's if they're close enough to not get called back to their anchor point.
You can't have it both ways.
Scrappers and Brutes do more damage in order to survive what they can because they aren't as tough as Tankers. Tankers do less damage, but can survive longer. I know you hate that idea as a balance metric, and would prefer something that can be the toughest and dish out high damage constantly, but this isn't, and won't ever be the case for this game.
In fact, I'd wager than any MMO that does something like this would only have but 1 melee AT in their game as a result because anything else would be unnecessary.
Rather then giving up defense or resistance you could always look at the secondaries and increase the damage via slowing down recharge and increasing end costs. This would make tankers more heavy hitters via bursting damage rather then DPSing with faster attacks.
Part of the problem with any defense oriented AT (defenders and tankers pretty much) is that their attack powers are on the same recharge/end cost as the damage ATs when they would be better off doing the same damage as the damage AT's but require more recharge and end costs to do it. In this way they can leverage their improved defenses to take a bit longer per attack ensuring that they hit a little bit harder.
The funny part is that if they did that then Brutes would most likely complain about Tankers doing too much damage because they would need fewer attacks to defeat a mob but wouldn't take into account the recharge and end costs as in higher level play they would become negligible differences on high recharge builds... which is the problem that tankers are talking about verses defenses. So, it may work and it may not but it is something to consider.
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This has already been gone over going back years ago until recently in this thread. There are several problems with this idea.|
Originally Posted by Montaugh
Rather then giving up defense or resistance you could always look at the secondaries and increase the damage via slowing down recharge and increasing end costs. This would make tankers more heavy hitters via bursting damage rather then DPSing with faster attacks.
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First, the early levels: Tankers would be even more penalized with slower recharging attacks, and therefore having an even more lower leveling curve compared to other melee ATs while solo. This is but one of the bullet point reasonings being Bruising.
Second, attack chains: the entire set has to be taken into consideration, and given that you can string attack chains together, an attack chain could still be built around longer recharging powers that could still pull ahead dps wise.
Some Tanker sets already have very high dps chains.
2b, recharge builds: even with Hasten and SOs, a long recharge attack could still be made significantly shorter, given multiple attacks, doing this would still allow for a very high burst, and high dps attack chain.
At which point all you've done is given Tankers over-all more damage.
Something like this would require a high magnitude of dev hours to go through each and every Tanker secondary at which the "high recharge penalty" doesn't really end up a penalty at all for more damage.
Third, increased endurance cost: besides the balance issue and devs hours required to do this, again you've only hurt early level game play with several attacks strung together would still do high damage, but effectively cost more endurance to do this with. This was another early level issue with Tankers as it cost them more endurance to defeat a Target than other melee ATs. Bruising was also meant to lessen this curve to a small extent.
One way of inreasing each Tanker's attack damage and avoid attack chains would be to create a variable forced cool down or lock out of the entire secondary after an attack is triggered. Now you could have a very high damaging single attack, but wouldn't be able to immediatly follow it up with another attack. I think we could all agree that in game play, this would not be very fun.
Another would be to be increase the damage of all secondary attacks, but then have each attack proc a damage debuff for a short duration, so that there's burst damage, but attack chains would pull damage down to near current level for example. This could end up causing multiple issues and conceptually makes zero sense.
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and HEREIN lies the problem. The thread is about how to improve Tanks and a good percentage of the answers are "Nerf Brutes" Seriously. Thats like a mechanic asking you how you want to make your car better. You answer "Thats an easy one dude" and start shooting at other peoples cars. |
Originally Posted by Psiphon
And here lies the problem!!
Brutes are hybrids, they should sit between Tanks and Scrappers for both damage and survivability. Currently their survivability is too close to Tanks and their damage often exceeds Scrappers. They should have their resistance caps reduced so that they sit midway between the two and there damage needs to be reduced - the last time I looked at the Rikti Pylon list it was topped by Brutes with Scrappers bringing up the rear. Where's that bat gone? /looks around. |
The question is "How do you make Tanks better."
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Their mitigation is not close to tankers.|
Originally Posted by Psiphon
Currently their survivability is too close to Tanks and their damage often exceeds Scrappers.
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30 minutes in mids will show you this.
Their damage does not exceed scrappers.
If you have a Brute and Scrapper using equivalent powersets, and the Brute is out-damaging you - its very likely that your build sucks.
Hint: Add persistent +damage bonuses. Musculature is a good start.
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Originally Posted by Psiphon
They should have their resistance caps reduced so that they sit midway between the two
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Originally Posted by Psiphon
and there damage needs to be reduced - the last time I looked at the Rikti Pylon list it was topped by Brutes with Scrappers bringing up the rear.
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There is one Brute build out damaging Scrapper builds.
One build only.
SS/FA/Soul.
When Scrappers get SS, they will out-damage the Brute version. It won't even be a contest.
Hyperbole in every direction aside, Synapse and company have said they're going to look at tanks and see " if " anything needs to be fixed or changed.
We can argue all we want, but in the end they've got the data. They will decide what should, or should not be done. IF they feel the caps for brutes are to high, they'll change them. IF they feel tanks aren't doing enough damage, they'll change it. IF they feel both are sitting where they'd like them... they'll change something else... 
In the meantime, I'm off to find a quieter sandbox to go play in. For those that remain I'd like to mention a quote my wife found recently "wash your hands and don't eat the poo."
Throwing darts at the board to see if something sticks.....
Come show your resolve and fight my brute!
Tanks: Gauntlet, the streak breaker and you!
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Originally Posted by PapaSlade
Rangle's right....this is fun.
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I like my hyperbole covered in a nice dry jerk rub then lightly braised and plated with a warm glass of Kentucky bourbon, Mmmm. |
Originally Posted by Rangle M. Down
Hyperbole in every direction aside, Synapse and company have said they're going to look at tanks and see " if " anything needs to be fixed or changed.
We can argue all we want, but in the end they've got the data. They will decide what should, or should not be done. IF they feel the caps for brutes are to high, they'll change them. IF they feel tanks aren't doing enough damage, they'll change it. IF they feel both are sitting where they'd like them... they'll change something else... In the meantime, I'm off to find a quieter sandbox to go play in. For those that remain I'd like to mention a quote my wife found recently "wash your hands and don't eat the poo." |
But yeah valid point Rangle makes, though by all means keep posting conjecture in here and leave the other thread be.
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Scrappers will get SS when Dominators get Illusion Control... AKA never or not without changes.
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Originally Posted by Deus_Otiosus
Their mitigation is not close to tankers.
30 minutes in mids will show you this. Their damage does not exceed scrappers. If you have a Brute and Scrapper using equivalent powersets, and the Brute is out-damaging you - its very likely that your build sucks. Hint: Add persistent +damage bonuses. Musculature is a good start. They're already midway between the two. Last time you looked you must have had blinders on. There is one Brute build out damaging Scrapper builds. One build only. SS/FA/Soul. When Scrappers get SS, they will out-damage the Brute version. It won't even be a contest. |
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95% of the game is farming....That's why Brutes are as popular as they are, IMO. Because they can turn 95% of the game into a farm. ST/TF, trials, incarnates, it's the majority of what the game either is or can be.|
Originally Posted by Johnny_Butane
95% of the game includes soloing on +0X1 95% of the game includes braindead radio missions. 95% of the game includes street sweeping green con enemies for that matter. |
But you don't want to make Tankers into farmers....pity that.
Apparently, I forgot to put in another minor point in my other post.
Tanker base damage is equal to Brute base + 3% Fury. Tanker damage is just fine where it is, thank you.
I was going to write a big long post with multiple quotes... But then I realized there's just no point.
just some thoughts about tankers.
Increase damage modifier to 0.9 or 0.95.
Argo cap from 16 to 24.
Treat level of tanker from 4 to 5.
Gauntlet AoE taunt from attacks and team size buff for every party member tanker gets 3% resistance and 2% defence to all damage types max 21% resistance 14%.
Dizzy
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Performance is gauged relative to others; Tanks are fine against most AT's but not against Brutes.
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Originally Posted by Blue_Centurion
and HEREIN lies the problem. The thread is about how to improve Tanks and a good percentage of the answers are "Nerf Brutes" Seriously. Thats like a mechanic asking you how you want to make your car better. You answer "Thats an easy one dude" and start shooting at other peoples cars.
The question is "How do you make Tanks better." |
L50s: Tanks: Cryofission - Ice/EM - Dr Celsius - Fire/Ice - Saint George - SD/SS | Controllers: Psichosis - Ill/Kin - Major Chaos - Ill/Stm | Scrappers - Neutron Crusader - DM/SR
Currently Levelling: Angelic Blade - BS/WP Scrapper | Seeds of Destruction - Plant/Kin Controller
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Mids doesn't tell the complete story. Mids operates in isolation of buffs, both team and Insperations|
Originally Posted by Deus_Otiosus
Their mitigation is not close to tankers.
30 minutes in mids will show you this. |
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Originally Posted by Deus_Otiosus
Their damage does not exceed scrappers.
If you have a Brute and Scrapper using equivalent powersets, and the Brute is out-damaging you - its very likely that your build sucks. Hint: Add persistent +damage bonuses. Musculature is a good start. |
http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showthread.php?t=265173
The point is it shouldn't even be open to debate - the fact that it's discussed shows that the damage is too close.
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Originally Posted by Deus_Otiosus
They're already midway between the two.
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L50s: Tanks: Cryofission - Ice/EM - Dr Celsius - Fire/Ice - Saint George - SD/SS | Controllers: Psichosis - Ill/Kin - Major Chaos - Ill/Stm | Scrappers - Neutron Crusader - DM/SR
Currently Levelling: Angelic Blade - BS/WP Scrapper | Seeds of Destruction - Plant/Kin Controller
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There is no other AT that is relatively similar to Tanks other than Brutes. Scrappers are the next nearest thing. Are you saying if Brutes and Scrappers did not exist you would be advocating nerfing Doms because they controlk crowds bettter than tanks and do more damage?|
Originally Posted by Psiphon
Performance is gauged relative to others; Tanks are fine against most AT's but not against Brutes.
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My specific point is that the thread is about how to improve Tanks. Not how if you nerf AT X it will make Tanks seem better.
So, the thread is about how... ah nvm I'm not posting here anymore.
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Many are very vocal about their blatant hatred of Tankers. I don't see the same kind of outcry rallying against the proposed Stalker buffs. Only Tankers elicit the turnout of the same dozen or so players who show up to shout down any proposed improvements.|
Originally Posted by Blue_Centurion
There is no other AT that is relatively similar to Tanks other than Brutes. Scrappers are the next nearest thing. Are you saying if Brutes and Scrappers did not exist you would be advocating nerfing Doms because they controlk crowds bettter than tanks and do more damage?
My specific point is that the thread is about how to improve Tanks. Not how if you nerf AT X it will make Tanks seem better. So, the thread is about how... ah nvm I'm not posting here anymore. |
They've done so for years, even when Bruising was about to be added. They were dead set against anything like Bruising if it was proposed by a player, but the game didn't fall apart when Bruising was added. This suggests their fingers are not as much on the pulse of the devs and the opinions of the true majority of players as they may think.
I think the complaints that lead to Bruising are just as valid (and in some cases are the same) as the complaints fueling this thread and the targeted feedback thread. If the developers do indeed feel there are issues they can address and proceed to do so, I look forward to the haters being proven wrong. Again.
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*snip*| Many are very vocal about their blatant hatred of Tankers |
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| I look forward to the haters being proven wrong. Again. |
I have not seen any posts here, or in the consildated ideas thread, nor elsewhere that would indicate someone hates Tankers. There are a few that have posted that they don't particular enjoy playing the AT, which is fine. Some people don't like Defenders, or Blasters, or Scrappers. Not liking a particular playstyle of an AT is very, very different than hatred. I've don't recall any recent threads in which someone stated they wouldn't invite a Tanker to a team. Some have posted that they feel multiple Tankers are redundant, but again, that's not an example of hatred.
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| I don't see the same kind of outcry rallying against the proposed Stalker buffs. Only Tankers elicit the turnout of the same dozen or so players who show up to shout down any proposed improvements. |
With regards to Stalker changes, the issues surrounding that particular AT have been well documented and brought up by the devs on multiple occaisions. Outside of early pvp, Stalkers have never worked how they were intended to, which is why the AT has had as many changes as its had. In othere words, changes for Stalkers are justified.
That's not to say that any change to Tankers isn't. There is a minority of players that feel there isn't a problem with Tankers. Its their opinion, their entitled to it, and entitled to post as such. I'm in rare agreement with you in that something needs to be done for Tankers.
What that is we differ on greatly. I doubt we'll see any new toggle or click powers, mass rebalancing of all the secondaries, etc...Most likely we'll see something done that's more...organic in nature. Something that players won't have to relearn or change tactics to how they play Tankers. I have serious doubts that whatever changes come it'll center around a direct buff to damage or damage potential.
I might be wrong though and I don't mind admitting to that nor would I complain. Its a game after all and I'll conintue to play Tankers even if no other change is ever done to them because I'm still having fun.
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Originally Posted by Johnny_Butane
IOs and the Incarnate system "don't count" when it comes to AT issues.
That's the excuse Brute boosters have been regurgitating for years. It's bogus shield they hide behind so they can keep being utterly broken. It ignores the fact of what happens when you balance damage against survivability, but allow Brutes and Scrappers, who have the survivability bar pretty high to begin with compared to other ATs, to gain more survivability via IOs and Incarnates without any required decrease in damage. You lower the risk of danger they're in, but they keep their damage edge. Damage versus survivability is a dumb axis to balance on anyways. More survivability only becomes useful to a point. Once you can take the damage from whatever you're fighting, more than that is redundant. Comparatively, increasing damage is always useful, and doesn't become redundant until you can one shot anything and everything (GMs, Hamidon, you name it). That is a point unlikely for any character to ever reach. But being tough enough to handle like, 95% of the game's content, and see no drawback from not being as tough as a Tanker, is a point much more easy to get to, and one Brutes and Scrappers often do get to, and will continue to get to more easily the more Incarnate abilities, IOs, team buffs and temp powers are added to the game. That should NOT be ignored, regardless of if the game is or is not 'balanced around IOs'. . |
Well I do not think Brutes need a nerf. I do however agree with you about Tankers receiving a buff. I like the idea of Brusing but its not enough cause it requires spamming of your tier 1 attack. If all attacks had a brusing effect it might work but then the issue comes with it stacking on teams with more than one tanker.
Everyone plays multiple ATs so you cannot really catagorize most people as Brute lovers , or Scrappers or Tankers. Hell most of the people you are arguing against probably like to play Tankers. The opposition on these boards simply comes from a crazy crowd most of which are either too parochial to understand what benefits the game overall or just argue for the sake of arguing. Others are dev worshippers who, for example, in my current thread are actually defending the 20 hour delay restriction with alignment missions despite it being completely irrational for fun reasons and most likely a guise to swindle people out of their money by making them buy an alignment token. Hell I have seen these people argue against having a click heal in Energy Aura and Fire Aura's Burn not being fixed.( Not just my threads only) Yet when these changes occured they all turn faced and praised the changes. The same will happen to Tankers. Brusing alone proves you were right about Tankers needing a buff. When they are buffed yet again , I promise all the people that stood in opposition to you will turn face. You can already tell their whimpy nature with some posters telling others they should ignore you because you are outspoken having been advocating a buff to Tankers for so long. Funny thing is they all play a super hero game yet they lack the main trait of a super hero....eccentricity. They are all interchangeable.
If you want my advice, you should follow the old adage:
"IF YOU CAN'T BEAT THEM, JOIN THEM.
You can't beat the system. Make a Brute, IO him up and be done with it. Although I do love this game for its customization, changes take years to implement. In 3 years when Tankers are finally buffed adequately, remake one, jump on Freedom, buy an xp booster, and drop some bones on a farm. Or just resurrect your current tankers.
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Only in your head. People don't hate on Tankers, they just find kinda weird all this whining about 'we don't feel needed anymore' from some (emphasis on some) Tanker players, when no AT is really needed in the game.|
Originally Posted by Johnny_Butane
Many are very vocal about their blatant hatred of Tankers. I don't see the same kind of outcry rallying against the proposed Stalker buffs. Only Tankers elicit the turnout of the same dozen or so players who show up to shout down any proposed improvements.
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And apparently you've never been to the Stalker forums, there's always some dumbhead who say 'this would make Stalkers overpowered' (like giving them TW), and then they show with their words that they've never played a Stalker by saying that the playstyle is like this or that and are usually dead wrong. Have you ever seen an OP'ed Stalker btw? lol
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People are asking if a combo is better on one or the other, not always which one does more damage.|
Originally Posted by Psiphon
I'm playing devils advocate. Alot of my thoughts are based on what I've read as well as what I see. I often see threads on "X Better on Scrapper or Brute?", often it goes the way of the Brute - you yourself were involved in this one.
http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showthread.php?t=265173 The point is it shouldn't even be open to debate - the fact that it's discussed shows that the damage is too close. |
More damage, goes to the Scrapper. Include musculature, and the Scrapper pulls ahead further.
A lot of things you read aren't based on numbers either. A lot of people just "feel" stuff.
Which is pretty useless as a gauge.
Brutes are damage dealers, they have 12% HP advantage over scrappers. For that advantage they give up consistent damage output as Fury can be affected by encounter design or simply not enough enemies or too slow of a pace.
Its very hard to test this, and almost no one does.
Every time you see Brutes compared to Scrappers you will see the Brute in the optimal permanent 80% Fury Scenario. (Even then equivalent Scrapper builds outdamage them)
Every time you see Brutes compared to Tankers you will see the Brute in the optimal permanent res cap buffed scenario. (Even then equivalent Tanker builds out mitigate them)
They have a higher resistance cap, but they don't actually have a higher base resistance so for some sets - SR, WP, SD & EA for example, the higher cap is all but irrelevant. You will not be playing with capped resistances, although you can hit it from time to time.
Other sets gain benefit from the higher res cap in their specialty like FA, which makes out OK if you like farming and Ela which makes out well in the endgame. Invuln Brutes generally don't get past the 75% SM/L res mark without buffs, but they are close enough that its an advantage.
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Originally Posted by Psiphon
I was under the impression that Brutes and Tanks both capped resistance at 90%, has that changed?
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Here's a quick (purposefully simplistic) side by side comparison of what an average WP Scrapper, Brute and Tanker will look like - including a rough guesstimate of the effect of IO bonuses (primarily on +HP):
WP Scrapper
2200 HP
50% SM/L Res
90-100 HP/S Regen
Softcapped to SM/L DEF
About 35-40 ENE/NEG/FIRE/COLD DEF
WP Brute
2600 HP
50% SM/L Res
100-115 HP/S
Softcapped to SM/L DEF
About 35-40 ENE/NEG/FIRE/COLD DEF
WP Tanker
3000-3100 HP
71% SM/L Res
120-130 HP/S
Softcapped to SM/L/ENE/NEG/FIRE/COLD
So if you look, you will see that the Brute is about Halfway between the Tanker in terms of HP, but basically the same as a Scrapper in every other area.
However if you even just include SM/L RES and nothing else, the Tanker's effective HP pool pulls away even further (because a 1000 HP SM/L attack that lands only does 290 damage to Tanker, vs doing 500 vs. the Brute.
This doesn't even count the advantage of higher BASE DEF in the build, allowing for the Tanker to actually work in more +HP bonues, more +rech bonuses easier as well as simply having better coverage vs. all damage types.
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Originally Posted by Johnny_Butane
Many are very vocal about their blatant hatred of Tankers.
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Because you certainly do hate them.
You hate Tankers, you hate being the biggest, hardest to kill mitigation specialist in the game. You hate giving up damage potential to be harder to kill vs. anything that inst a special mechanic.
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Originally Posted by Johnny_Butane
I don't see the same kind of outcry rallying against the proposed Stalker buffs.
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Again, I do trials every night and I see at least 2 to 8 tankers in every league I'm in.
I see maybe 1 stalker in every 3 or 4 leagues I join.
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Originally Posted by Johnny_Butane
Only Tankers elicit the turnout of the same dozen or so players who show up to shout down any proposed improvements.
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You know, the ones that think Tankers should have the same (or more!) mitigation than now and do damage on par with damage dealers because of some mary sue they loved when they were reading comics as a kid.
I have nothing against the Tanker AT itself. Neither do my friends who play Tankers, they don't seem to hate Tankers like you do.
Oh yeah, still waiting for you to tell me:
How much of the irrelevant mitigation (your words) are you willing to give up in order to deal more damage?
The day you answer that question honestly is the day I can start considering to take you seriously.
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What did Brutes and Scrappers give up for getting high IO level defense mitigation? Did they give up their damage ? .....Nope
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Originally Posted by Deus_Otiosus
How much of the irrelevant mitigation (your words) are you willing to give up in order to deal more damage? The day you answer that question honestly is the day I can start considering to take you seriously. |
[quote]What did Brutes and Scrappers give up for getting high IO level defense mitigation? Did they give up their damage ? .....Nope[quote]
Thankfully, and I know some people don't like to admit this as truth or see this as some form of hyperbole, but the majority of the game isn't designed nor balanced around high IO investments.
Even so, there are many ATs that can put out quite impressive defensive values while still pumping out a lot of damage, some which can put brutes and scrappers to shame.
With comparitive builds, Tanker don't haveto invest as much as either Scrappers or Brutes to reach those same values. Which allows them for flexibility for building in different directions. You know, there are Tankers that can still put up really decent dps chains, while still being tougher than either Scrappers or Brutes.
An great example of this was Silverado making a Blaster than can take down AVs. Or Boomie's elec / cold taking on quite a few AVs pre-incarnate pets. Particularly when at the time, quite a few people stated the two sets had little synergy.
And the devs did pretty much admit that they wish they hadn't focused so much on defense values for IOs and offered more resistance as well.
The point is, asking to either nerf Brutes and / or Scrappers isn't how one should go about seeking changes for Tankers.
Also asking for the toughest defensive (not just + defense values but all attributes therein) melee AT to also be consistantly as good offensively as either Brutes or Scrappers isn't how one should go about seeking changes for this AT.
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IO mitigation is primarily Defense.|
Originally Posted by New_Dark_Age
What did Brutes and Scrappers give up for getting high IO level defense mitigation? Did they give up their damage ? .....Nope
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Tankers also benefit from building for Defense as well.
What do they give up to get that extra mitigation above their SO baseline?
Nothing, just like the Scrappers and Brutes give up nothing.
So what you have is all three ATs, with the Tanker still on top for mitigation by a large margin. You can refer to my WP example to a simplistic view of how that works.
The Truth is that no matter how you present your case, Tankers still have much higher base mitigation advantages.
Its there, it exists, no one can deny the numbers.
So you are saying those advantages are not relevant to 95% of the game.
OK, I'm listening.
Then how much of that mitigation, that you say is not relevant, are you willing to cut down so Tankers can deal more damage as you would like them to?
Are you willing to see Tanker base DEF, base RES and base HP all come down from being 25% higher than a Brute to being say, only 10% higher? And then, see Tankers get an increase in damage potential?