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Only problem with raising the MAX HP further is there increases a distance between Tanker builds. With the current HP cap, any set without Dull Pain cannot ever cap their HP without Frostwork.
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Originally Posted by Scirion
If they were to do *anything* to change Tankers (and Tankers alone), my only requests would be...
Raise the target cap on Taunt. Like, 20 targets or so. 5 is almost not worth using, except in emergency situations (like needing to pull an ambush off the Blaster on a Master run or something. Which it still fails at, because ambushes almost always spawn more than 5 targets). Remove the aggro cap for Tankers. If the tanker wants to aggro the next three rooms at once, why shouldn't they be able to? That *is* their single purpose for being on the team. 90% of the Tankers in the game can handle way more aggro from 90% of the enemy groups in the game than they are allowed to take due to the aggro cap. Removing the aggro cap would also give the side benefit of making the AT more entertaining to play, as the driver would need to pay attention and not aggro more than they can handle, instead of it being as it is now, and just running around punching things while the team blows it all up. Rinse, repeat. Personally, I also believe this would have the side benefit of seeing a resurgence of some of the more "neglected" powersets in the game. In particular, Empathy and Pain Domination. As the tank gets more aggro, they have more need of superior buffs (and possibly healing) that other AT's might not benefit from as much as a Tanker swimming in 80 <insert preferred enemy group here>. Less-used powers like Share Pain would start being useful again, rather than being the "LOL, You took THAT power?! LOL!!ONE" laughingstock it is now. (To that end, I think people are silly not to take it as things are now, but that's irrelevant.) Other "buffs" that I wouldn't mind seeing, but also don't consider terribly important: Raise the HP cap for Tankers. I have a Stone Armor tank that can self-cap HP using only TFC/Freem Phalanx (still missing Portal Jockey) and 3-slotted Earth's Embrace, plus a couple IO bonuses. OK, alot of bonuses. But it still wasn't a primary (or even tertiary) goal with the build. MaxHP was more like 5th place. Ally +MaxHP buffs like Frostwork are almost never taken, because the AT's that could benefit the most from them (namely, Tankers, Blasters on sub-par or Tanker/Brute-less teams, and Stalkers {though if I recall, Stalkers are getting an increase on their cap?}) can't benefit due to the HP cap. And just to clarify things, reducing the effectiveness of buffs to make it harder to hit the existing cap REALLY is NOT the right way to go about making changes. Raise the existing taunt magnitude for all Tanker powers. Scrappers having a taunt aura with the same effectiveness as a Tanker is kind of silly, when you think about it. I had another idea, but I spent so long typing all of that, I forgot about it. Also, I only read the first and 25th pages, I skipped the other 23. So, sorry if this has all been beaten to death in this topic already.  |
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Quoting this but the question goes out to anyone:|
Originally Posted by Arcanaville
It depends on how high is high. If you can soft-cap Willpower, I think it can exceed Invuln on Tankers. But if you can't, the combination of high smash/lethal, perma dull pain, and invincibility is not easy to beat in most content.
Still, anyone who doesn't put Invuln up there as a strong tanking build has suspect judgment, and anyone who doesn't put Electric up there is probably extremely dated in their knowledge of the sets. |
Is this factoring in Incarnate abilities? Reason I ask is can Willpower even cap its HP through IO's?
That HP difference with Rebirth could make substantial gains on an Invul tank.
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If you can judgement 30 targets, I think Tankers should be able to aggro 30, at least.
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Originally Posted by DrGemini
I still would like to see the aggro cap increased (for Tankers only).
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Would give Stone Tankers something to do with their nigh unlimited survivability.
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Quote:
Willpower can get likely cap with IOs/accolades but it may not be worth the other small sacrifices. That said getting very close to the cap is very doable.|
Originally Posted by Ultimus
Quoting this but the question goes out to anyone:
Is this factoring in Incarnate abilities? Reason I ask is can Willpower even cap its HP through IO's? That HP difference with Rebirth could make substantial gains on an Invul tank. |
Click me for Iggy magic
Why Blasters? Empathy Sucks.
So, you want to be Mental?
What the hell? Let's buff defenders.
Tactics are for those who do not have a big enough hammer. Wisdom is knowing how big your hammer is.
I'm a little lost. When Arcanaville said Softcap Willpower I assumed he was talking about defense to 45%, not HP. Maybe I need more coffee.
I ran a Softcap (to Defense) Willpower Tank for a couple months in early 2010. It was a god. It Tanked Lord Recluse for 5 minutes while the team took down the towers/buffs. Someone told me later I got lucky, explained the percentages and his higher than softcap attacks in that Task Force. I believe them, but still. That tank never fell. It was the easiest CoH gameplay experience I have ever had, and i was always smack dab in the thick of the worst combats. I used Taunt as my go-to attack each time it cycled up. (Will has that horrid aura of course)
Based on my experience I would not even try to maximize a Willpower Tank's health. You really only need that x% more health if you ever get hit significantly...
With accolades, HPT and some hp set bonuses you'd most likely be getting anyway it is pretty easy to cap WP for HP. WP has it's weaknesses, particularly defense debuffs combined with non s/l damage and also high burst damage.
I am an ebil markeeter and will steal your moneiz ...correction stole your moneiz. I support keeping the poor down because it is impossible to make moneiz in this game.
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The problem with this complaint is that its a severe distortion of the truth. The simple fact is you can't deal damage if you're dead, so there's no such thing as being in a situation that kills everyone but you're doing less damage.|
Originally Posted by Blue_Centurion
I read this above -"The main advantage of Tankers that they trade damage for, survivability, is all too often trivialized in newer content by 'cheating' mechanics. Situations are created that are lethal to all ATs, even Tankers, yet Tankers continue to deal less damage even when they're in just as much danger. I refer to unresisted damage, attacks and hazards that deal a HP percentage and the like. A Tanker can no more shrug off a Battle Maiden Sword Bomb than a Scrapper can, but the Scrapper will be outputting more damage regardless."
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If Scrappers are outdamaging Tankers, its because the Scrappers are actually alive. And if the Scrappers are alive, the Tankers are probably alive also. The argument that the Tanker has more damage mitigation than required in many situations is hazy, but the argument that the tanker's damage mitigation is irrelevant in other situations isn't logical.
Most of the situations where there is no survivability difference between scrappers and tankers are limited metagaming situations, not genuine combat. Don't stand here, or you die. Metagames are usually directed at the player, not the character, and aren't intended to obey the same balance metrics as combat ones.
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She, not he.|
Originally Posted by Blue_Centurion
I'm a little lost. When Arcanaville said Softcap Willpower I assumed he was talking about defense to 45%, not HP. Maybe I need more coffee.
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And yes, she was talking about 45% Defense softcap.
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Originally Posted by Blue_Centurion
Someone told me later I got lucky, explained the percentages and his higher than softcap attacks in that Task Force. I believe them, but still. That tank never fell. It was the easiest CoH gameplay experience I have ever had, and i was always smack dab in the thick of the worst combats.
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1) The reason you did not die is unoikely to be the result of softcapped defenses on their own.
2) The reason you did not die is most likely because of WP's combination of Defenses, Resistances, high HP pool and high regeneration.
3) Reason #2 is why people that think softcapped defense = tanker level mitigation are completely wrong and just come off sounding ridiculous.
4) Its extremely unlikely you could ever pull of the same feat with a Brute or Scrapper version of that build and not die.
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Blue_Centurion
Based on my experience I would not even try to maximize a Willpower Tank's health. You really only need that x% more health if you ever get hit significantly...
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Using easy numbers, if you have 45% Defenses and mobs only have a 5% chance to hit you that doesn't mean they will never hit you.
They will hit you, and when you get hit you want more HP, especially as a WP anything.
That build that Stratonexus posted, by Iggy, will have an amazing level of survivability due to the combination of DEF, HP, Res and Regen. With him having built specifically for DEF and HP.
On a WP Tanker my first priority would be defenses and then maximizing HP.
No Brute or Scrapper WP build has a chance in hell of even coming close to that build.
Quote:
Still looking for that gender neutral pronoun for English. Seriously, gets old. I saw no indication of male/female in the post. Yes it was (slightly) sexist to default to Him/He/His. Someone has probably corrected me about Arcanaville's gender before. Iseriously don't care if Arcanaville is a Kheldian impersonating a cat-girl. S/he makes great sense and has an encyclopedic knowledge of the game. Argh. Seriously. Argh. Okay, it's more like arg, just nt feeling it today. Back to your regularly scheduled Tank mechanic discussion.|
Originally Posted by Deus_Otiosus
She, not he.
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and PS Deus, you are of course right in your analysis, and in truth the build I had of course was running +HP bonuses. Not sure how many, I relied on you good folks of locker 23 to help me with the design. I am doing more of my own MIDs now, but it takes me days of pouring over details to get one build to where I want it.
Quote:
We have one. The grammatical third person gender indeterminate singular for people is 'they'. It's been in use in English -- American and otherwise -- for centuries.
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Originally Posted by Blue_Centurion
Still looking for that gender neutral pronoun for English.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Softcapping an Invuln is fantastic. Softcapping a Willpower is amazing. Softcapping SR is kissing your sister.
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Doesn't sound right. When I'm talking about one person, but dont know their gender and use Them/They/theirs it seems like either i'm talking about a Schizophrenic or I don't know how to count.
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Originally Posted by Void_Huntress
We have one. The grammatical third person gender indeterminate singular for people is 'they'. It's been in use in English -- American and otherwise -- for centuries.
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I call nonsense. I have been playing on Freedom religiously for the last month and I team with 4 times as many Brutes and Scrappers than I do Tanks. Farming/Zones/TFs all content. |
Originally Posted by Deus_Otiosus
Contrary to this posters constant fear mongering for some sudden extinction of tankers, I see no shortage of Tankers on both Freedom and Virtue server where I run 2-4 Incarnate Trials per night.
I easily see as many Tankers as I do Scrappers and Brutes. |
The player base has caught on. IOs make it more logical to make a Brute. Tanks can use a buff. Brusing isn't good enough. Maybe making all attacks have a brusing effect would work.
I apologize as I haven't read this massive thread, but how unreasonable would it be if EVERY attack had the bruising effect, including AOEs?
It doesn't stack on enemies, so it wouldn't be OP, but, I don't know if that would really fix the AT. Personally I don't think tankers are really in that bad of shape - yeah, I wish they did more damage, of course - especially ice melee - man do I feel weak with that set.
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Originally Posted by JayboH
I apologize as I haven't read this massive thread, but how unreasonable would it be if EVERY attack had the bruising effect, including AOEs?
It doesn't stack on enemies, so it wouldn't be OP, but, I don't know if that would really fix the AT. Personally I don't think tankers are really in that bad of shape - yeah, I wish they did more damage, of course - especially ice melee - man do I feel weak with that set. |
It would be extremely unreasonable.
Take a look at what it takes for a Corr, MM or Controller to put out -20% Resistance on a target.
AoE powers that do that are generally expensive toggles or long recharge powers, and if you scroll up thread you can see where I posted Castle's ideas for Bruising and why they specifically did not add bruising to the powers like you're asking.
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IOs and the Incarnate system "don't count" when it comes to AT issues.|
Originally Posted by New_Dark_Age
I call nonsense. I have been playing on Freedom religiously for the last month and I team with 4 times as many Brutes and Scrappers than I do Tanks. Farming/Zones/TFs all content.
The player base has caught on. IOs make it more logical to make a Brute. Tanks can use a buff. |
That's the excuse Brute boosters have been regurgitating for years.
It's bogus shield they hide behind so they can keep being utterly broken.
It ignores the fact of what happens when you balance damage against survivability, but allow Brutes and Scrappers, who have the survivability bar pretty high to begin with compared to other ATs, to gain more survivability via IOs and Incarnates without any required decrease in damage. You lower the risk of danger they're in, but they keep their damage edge.
Damage versus survivability is a dumb axis to balance on anyways. More survivability only becomes useful to a point. Once you can take the damage from whatever you're fighting, more than that is redundant. Comparatively, increasing damage is always useful, and doesn't become redundant until you can one shot anything and everything (GMs, Hamidon, you name it).
That is a point unlikely for any character to ever reach.
But being tough enough to handle like, 95% of the game's content, and see no drawback from not being as tough as a Tanker, is a point much more easy to get to, and one Brutes and Scrappers often do get to, and will continue to get to more easily the more Incarnate abilities, IOs, team buffs and temp powers are added to the game.
That should NOT be ignored, regardless of if the game is or is not 'balanced around IOs'.
.
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*snip*|
IOs and the Incarnate system "don't count" when it comes to AT issues. That's the excuse Brute boosters have been regurgitating for years. It's bogus shield they hide behind so they can keep being utterly broken. |
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| But being tough enough to handle like, 95% of the game's content, and see no drawback from not being as tough as a Tanker |
With regards to damage, what about those certain Tanker secondaries that can match or even surpass certain Scrapper and Brute dps attack chains? Now you have a situation where there's a Tanker thats tougher than either Brute or Scrapper, and within the same amount of time, is pulling ahead damage wise.
Everything isn't so black and white as your blanket statements make them out to be.
Regarding Incarnate abilities: Every AT in the game is able to make huge strides with them. There are quite a few controller builds than can put any melee AT to shame when it comes to damage, and still have safety via control. Should that be changed so that Dominators can pull ahead of those few sets that do always? No, because its the intent that Incarnate abilities allow people to do things with their builds that their character couldn't before, or do it with more efficiency.
Tankers can increase their damage potential in quite a few ways, they could increase their regeneration and healing which would always trump that of a Scrapper or Tankers values. And in those instances where a good IO build doesn't necessarily require additional defense, a Tanker can still become work towards adding resistance or recharge, etc...
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Originally Posted by Johnny_Butane
IOs and the Incarnate system "don't count" when it comes to AT issues.
That's the excuse Brute boosters have been regurgitating for years. It's bogus shield they hide behind so they can keep being utterly broken. It ignores the fact of what happens when you balance damage against survivability, but allow Brutes and Scrappers, who have the survivability bar pretty high to begin with compared to other ATs, to gain more survivability via IOs |
You mean like your argument ignores what kind of survivability Tankers are capable of with IOs?
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In fact you can't even get that much Recharge and be softcapped without taking manuevers. Even then its a stretch, and you certainly don't have space for all of the +HP bonuses.
Not good enough? Let me know so I can build you an incarnate softcapped version and I'll let you try to match it with a Brute or Scrapper.
This is where you dodge the Tanker's higher survivability numbers, or pretend they are irrelevant, or hide behind your fantasy scenario of perma-buffed to the caps gameplay that I have never seen in over 1300 incarnate trials.
BAF, Lambda, UG, Keyes, TPN, MoM; I run them all.
How many trials have you run?
Hey guys been gone for awhile, came back and saw this wonderful thread. I particually like where tanks are in the game. I usually play tanks solo or team and have no issues with it.
I don't see a point with increasing survivability of what is already very on tanks. More than 90% caps is rediculouse and there dmg seems fine to me. But if you insist on trying to balance the the melee at's further than there really is only a few options to take.
1. Increase survivability of Tanks to exceed further caps and make them even tougher to stretch the gap further between scrappers and brutes.
2 Increase Tanker dmg/dmg cap to make tanks overpowered because they are now better than both brutes and scrappers. (this of course would would make scrappers and brutes redundant)
3. Nerf the resistance caps of brutes and scrappers to match stalkers and make crap, thus making tankers seem better again
4. Increase the difficulty of the game so softcaps are increased making it easier for tanks (but still difficult to reach) than brutes or scrappers
5. keep the game the same?
I dont really know what to say
Electric Armour and the Soft cap
Electric Armour and the 1st 20 levels
Thundra Knight
click here for You want the best TANK!? I'll let you decicde!
Hypothetical question: would it be possible for each Tanker on the team to increase the max targets of all team members by 1? Powers that cap at 16 targets cap at 17, etc? This would increase their damage in a different way (especially if the Tanker him/herself could hit 17 with their own powers, Taunts, etc). You might cap it at a total max of +4 targets to keep things sane, but then again, all-Defender teams aren't discouraged either. The Tanker's Taunt power itself would net 6 targets.
Note that while I think Tankers really need to be force multipliers, I'd rather it not be a "only for everyone within 30ft" kind of thing. Unless it's huge, like 100ft. And definitely limited to just the team, so you don't have 24 member Tanker leagues able to hit 40 targets per attack (although and again, Defenders/Controllers/Corruptors aren't limited from stacking).
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I think you hit the nail on the head. I agree some power sets seem weak as a tank but thats not to say that tanks are inferiour in anyway. What i dont understand is why certain people think tanks are broken? I think power selection is very important to the feel of your characters performance. Ice melee isnt the greatest dmg set around but it provides some nice alternative mitigation which is important to a tank. I good example of Ice melee thats workable is the Resistance based sets (that dont incorporate IO's) Fire Aura for example running on standard IO's or SO's benefits very well paired with Ice melee. Where as Fire melee does more dmg but over all provides little mitigation support to the AT as a whole.|
Originally Posted by JayboH
. Personally I don't think tankers are really in that bad of shape - yeah, I wish they did more damage, of course - especially ice melee - man do I feel weak with that set.
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The matter of the fact is tanks are in a good place and as so scrappers and brutes.
I for one have only just started my 1st brute ever and can honestly say i dont really like all that much so far. In the back of my head im thinking this guys isnt going to be tough enough to tank in end game content/ not like my tank.
The only up side is Brutes have a broadsword and taunt so its my best tankish AT for what i want to achieve. Until the Devs proliferate BS to tanks which i think is not going to happen?
I dont really know what to say
Electric Armour and the Soft cap
Electric Armour and the 1st 20 levels
Thundra Knight
click here for You want the best TANK!? I'll let you decicde!
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Originally Posted by Oedipus_Tex
(although and again, Defenders/Controllers/Corruptors aren't limited from stacking).
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They are however, limited in their ability to mitigate punishment.
I think its a very important distinction.
Your idea on increasing other peoples target caps is interesting though.
My concern is this.
Once you have enough support, you are basically set.
Support in force, is obviously the most powerful thing in the game (support individually leads to us calling them squishies).
Now, going into incarnate trials - you could take some melee ATs who deal damage, or you could take the toughest AT available who is also a force multiplier and allows the rest of the league to deal even more damage.
Which do you choose, given the choice?
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Let me make sure I understand what you're trying to say here.|
Originally Posted by Johnny_Butane
IOs and the Incarnate system "don't count" when it comes to AT issues.
That's the excuse Brute boosters have been regurgitating for years. It's bogus shield they hide behind so they can keep being utterly broken. It ignores the fact of what happens when you balance damage against survivability, but allow Brutes and Scrappers, who have the survivability bar pretty high to begin with compared to other ATs, to gain more survivability via IOs and Incarnates without any required decrease in damage. You lower the risk of danger they're in, but they keep their damage edge. Damage versus survivability is a dumb axis to balance on anyways. More survivability only becomes useful to a point. Once you can take the damage from whatever you're fighting, more than that is redundant. Comparatively, increasing damage is always useful, and doesn't become redundant until you can one shot anything and everything (GMs, Hamidon, you name it). That is a point unlikely for any character to ever reach. But being tough enough to handle like, 95% of the game's content, and see no drawback from not being as tough as a Tanker, is a point much more easy to get to, and one Brutes and Scrappers often do get to, and will continue to get to more easily the more Incarnate abilities, IOs, team buffs and temp powers are added to the game. That should NOT be ignored, regardless of if the game is or is not 'balanced around IOs'. . |
1) The game is not balanced around IO's/Incarnates, it's balanced around SO's.
I think we can all agree on that. I'm pretty sure that's been said by the devs at some point or something. But honestly, it doesn't really matter at this point.
2) Brutes and Scrappers are clearly inherently better than tanks, because they are (according to you) equally survivable (comparing either of them to a Tank) with IO's, and do significantly more damage than a Tank.
False. More on this in a moment.
3) Any (presumably, you're talking about a high-end IO/Incarnate build on this point) Brute or Scrapper can tank 95% of the content in the game.
Possible. I've seen some pretty impressive Scrappers and Brutes (mostly Scrappers). But what about the other 5%, which sums up about 75% of my personal gameplay on a regular basis?
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I'll cover point two first. Brutes are not inherently better than Tanks. I'm ignoring Scrappers completely because honestly, I'm too tired to compare all three at once. They are different than tanks. Different != Better. Brutes have the same Resistance cap as Tanks, but lower base values. Example: Stone Skin, from Stone Armor. Base of 10% Resistance for Tankers (14.3% two-slotted with Aegis Res + Res/End), 7.5% (10.6%) for Brutes. For the record, 4-slotting common Resistance IO's will get the Brute to about 12.5%. Still short of the Tank. But, it's not just Resistance that the Tank is better at. With equal slotting, Earths Embrace will get the Brute about 800 MaxHP, while the Tanker gets roughly 1,020. The list of things the Tanker can do better to get more survival for that tiny 5% of the game goes on. And on. And on. Brutes were intended to provide near-Tanker survivability, while providing near-Scrapper level damage. Unless I'm mistaken, it's been proven on several occasions that with similar builds, a Brute at full Fury outputs roughly the same damage as a Scrapper.
On to point three, "any Brute can tank 95% of the content in the game". Sure they can. (only being a tiny bit sarcastic here) A Brute can tank (for example) Reichsman just fine. But what happens when you add in another four level 54 AV's, two of which do Psi damage? Hint. Every one I've seen has a habit of dying. Not to say that NO Brute can do it. I'm sure there are builds around that *could* do it. It's just going to be much harder to do than with a Tank.
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Now, just for giggles... Let's see what happens if you build your Brute for pure damage, and ignore trying to build for survival: (This is just a quick build I just whipped up. Someone could probably do better with more time and effort)
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If it wasn't 4AM, I'd give some visual examples. Maybe tomorrow. For now, I'll leave it at this. Your arguement that Tankers are surpassed by Brutes and Scrappers is invalid. Brutes will never be able to get the same high end survival numbers that Tankers can get. Tankers will never be able to do the obscene amounts of damage Brutes are capable of. They just aren't the same.
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You're right, it doesn't matter. It would be stupid and irresponsible to ignore the effects of IOs because they have become a common sight. But the Brute pep squad insists we and the devs do so.|
Originally Posted by Scirion
1) The game is not balanced around IO's/Incarnates, it's balanced around SO's.
I think we can all agree on that. I'm pretty sure that's been said by the devs at some point or something. But honestly, it doesn't really matter at this point. |
Quote:
| On to point three, "any Brute can tank 95% of the content in the game". Sure they can. (only being a tiny bit sarcastic here) A Brute can tank (for example) Reichsman just fine. But what happens when you add in another four level 54 AV's, two of which do Psi damage? |
Nor is it trials.
95% of the game includes soloing on +0X1
95% of the game includes braindead radio missions.
95% of the game includes street sweeping green con enemies for that matter.
In all of those situations, Tankers having survivability over Brutes or Scrappers is superfluous. There is a much much smaller percentage of situations in the entire game that it is not. Maybe it's not 5%, but it's a heck of a lot less than the damage gap and the damage potential gap between Brutes and Tankers. And, that percentage only gets smaller the more IOs, buffs and Incarnate abilities Brutes and Scrappers are permitted that improve their toughness.
Also, something you and others forget: Not all survivability is derived from your build numbers. The Tanker primary and Brute secondary aren't the only thing that keeps them upright.
They get a TON of mitigation from their attacks. Namely, killing things before they can hurt you and various secondary effects on the attacks. For example, a Brute Foot Stomp mitigates damage BETTER than a Tanker Foot Stomp. They both knock the enemies on their butts just as good as the other, but the Brute inflicts more damage and has a greater chance of killing them. Usually, Tankers don't have the edge here because the numbers are the same, or they favor the Brute because the Brute is outputting more of the ultimate form of mitigation; dead enemies can't hurt you.
The truth is, this pushes the actual survivability of Brutes closer to Tankers than looking at their defense, HP and resistance numbers would suggest.
.
If they were to do *anything* to change Tankers (and Tankers alone), my only requests would be...
Raise the target cap on Taunt. Like, 20 targets or so. 5 is almost not worth using, except in emergency situations (like needing to pull an ambush off the Blaster on a Master run or something. Which it still fails at, because ambushes almost always spawn more than 5 targets).
Remove the aggro cap for Tankers. If the tanker wants to aggro the next three rooms at once, why shouldn't they be able to? That *is* their single purpose for being on the team. 90% of the Tankers in the game can handle way more aggro from 90% of the enemy groups in the game than they are allowed to take due to the aggro cap. Removing the aggro cap would also give the side benefit of making the AT more entertaining to play, as the driver would need to pay attention and not aggro more than they can handle, instead of it being as it is now, and just running around punching things while the team blows it all up. Rinse, repeat.
Personally, I also believe this would have the side benefit of seeing a resurgence of some of the more "neglected" powersets in the game. In particular, Empathy and Pain Domination. As the tank gets more aggro, they have more need of superior buffs (and possibly healing) that other AT's might not benefit from as much as a Tanker swimming in 80 <insert preferred enemy group here>. Less-used powers like Share Pain would start being useful again, rather than being the "LOL, You took THAT power?! LOL!!ONE" laughingstock it is now. (To that end, I think people are silly not to take it as things are now, but that's irrelevant.)
Other "buffs" that I wouldn't mind seeing, but also don't consider terribly important:
Raise the HP cap for Tankers. I have a Stone Armor tank that can self-cap HP using only TFC/Freem Phalanx (still missing Portal Jockey) and 3-slotted Earth's Embrace, plus a couple IO bonuses. OK, alot of bonuses. But it still wasn't a primary (or even tertiary) goal with the build. MaxHP was more like 5th place. Ally +MaxHP buffs like Frostwork are almost never taken, because the AT's that could benefit the most from them (namely, Tankers, Blasters on sub-par or Tanker/Brute-less teams, and Stalkers {though if I recall, Stalkers are getting an increase on their cap?}) can't benefit due to the HP cap. And just to clarify things, reducing the effectiveness of buffs to make it harder to hit the existing cap REALLY is NOT the right way to go about making changes.
Raise the existing taunt magnitude for all Tanker powers. Scrappers having a taunt aura with the same effectiveness as a Tanker is kind of silly, when you think about it.
I had another idea, but I spent so long typing all of that, I forgot about it.
Also, I only read the first and 25th pages, I skipped the other 23. So, sorry if this has all been beaten to death in this topic already.