So I got a PM from Synapse about buffing Tankers

I asked if he's ever looked into it and he said he has not but he is willing to consider it. I thought I'd stop by before sending off a reply at what he needs to look at. Tankers don't have an egregious level of underperformance but there is room for improvement. With that being said, here's my questions:

What problems do you feel Tankers have?

Why do you feel this is a problem?

What would you do to Tankers to improve them? Why?

And what quantifiable data would you use to justify such a change?

The thing for me is that anything a Tanker can do, a Brute or Scrapper can do pretty much equally well while dealing significantly more damage at the same time. However the thing is this isn't specifically a problem with the tanker class, more its a subtle issue with the game itself in that the survivability of a tank is never needed over that of a Brute or Scrapper because of how combat mechanics in this game as well as the in general very low difficulty of all content. Anything that needs to be "tanked" in this game can have its aggro held by a Brute or Scrapper and they can equally sustain any damage as well as a tank assuming both are built equally well.

I find Tankers are very good already especially with Bruising effect. They tank better than most Brutes I've seen and their damage is not bad. It's just that their good damage comes later, just like Dominator.

I'll be surprised if they buff Tanker even more. What they can do is to nerf Brute. :P

I actually have no problem with Tankers in general. Individual sets could do with boosting, sure, but that's about it.

Brutes might need nerfing a little (if they're still doing Scrapper-level damage with close to Tanker-level survivability).

But on a Tanker I find I'm still 'in demand' as the go-to AT for not-dying and helping everyone else not-die.

Ok let me add another question then, lets say the Developers are happy with Brute's performance.

If this is the case, do Tanker's need a buffing? If so, refer back to the questions in post 1.

I'd look at it on a set by set basis... I think the AT itself is in pretty good shape now although some sets could use some attention. The only general improvement that comes to mind and might not be out of hand (I haven't figured any numbers here so it's off the cuff) would be a SMALL boost to base HP along the lines of 5-10% in order to move tankers slightly farther in durability from brutes.

Now when we look at sets there's two that jump out at me anyway and those are WP and SR. Both of them could really use a boost to their taunt auras, WP's only has a 1.25 second duration and SR is even worse with a 1 second one. Strangely the Brute version of SR has a 13.6 second duration taunt... somethings certainly out of sorts there. My opinion has always been that a tanker who can't hold aggro is no tanker at all; those two sets make it MUCH more difficult to fulfill the primary purpose of the AT.

It's hard to argue for a Tanker buff when I can go afk in a group of enemies scaled for a full team, while my Blaster, even tricked out with a ton of Defense set bonuses, is always a couple lucky hits away from face-planting.

I'm sure certain sets or powers could be looked at- I think Rooted's movement debuff is a fun debuff- but overall Tankers are easy mode.

I agree with if anything strengthen a Tanker's taunt effects to separate them from the herd rather than reach for homogeneity among melee ATs. Brute and Scrapper are already bad enough - there's little reason to play one over the other and the game wouldn't suffer if one or the other were deleted as an AT. Boosting Tanker damage too much more leads to there being even less point behind so many melee ATs.

The largest problem, as DreadShinobi mentioned, is the irony that CoX's lack of need for a 'trinity' team makeup to succeed at challenges leads to obsolescence of said trinity classes.

Tanker aggro control is nice, but not needed - brutes can do it, scrappers can do it, peacebringers and warshades can do it, masterminds with the presence pool can do it, anyone else with the presence pool can do it, controllers and dominators negate the need to do it.

Tanker damage is nice, but since every single AT in the game is a DPS AT it's not a specific draw.

Tanker durability is nice, but since everyone shares the same defense caps, and defense - not resistance - is what turns a team from solid to steamroll who cares? A softcapped(+) team doesn't. Let the enemies run amok. They can waste their attacks trying to kill the petless mastermind for all the good it does them.

What tankers need, more than anything else, is AT specific defense caps - of which theirs should be highest. If tankers are the only ones who can reach 45%+ defense then maybe, maybe, people would care if the AV runs amok.

Biggest problem with tankers is, while no other AT in this game is needed, many tanker players have the unreasonable expectation tankers should be needed.

<johnny butane>They're not completely invulnerable like Superman, even when they take the Invulnerability set!</johnny butane>


Just wanted to get that out of the way.

What problems do you feel Tankers have?

-Tankers sacrifice too much damage for a survivability edge that doesn't come into play all that often. Brutes and Scrappers aren't exactly fragile solo, and on teams they're smothered in lots of buffs and heals.

-You choose to represent Tankers with Statesman, even now on the creation screen. They were the original (and for a long time the only blue side) AT with Super Strength and Invulnerability. It's clear what kind of image and archetypal super hero they were/are trying to evoke, but Tankers do not live up to that sort of comic character.

-Tankers do not have the same potential as Brutes. Brutes at their absolute potential (read: caps) deal much more damage than Tankers, but only have 10% less HP. As an anecdote, my Inv/SS Tanker, that I didn't actively build for damage, hits his damage cap and presently has little to no more room to grow offensively through straightforward means.

-The main advantage of Tankers that they trade damage for, survivability, is all too often trivialized in newer content by 'cheating' mechanics. Situations are created that are lethal to all ATs, even Tankers, yet Tankers continue to deal less damage even when they're in just as much danger. I refer to unresisted damage, attacks and hazards that deal a HP percentage and the like. A Tanker can no more shrug off a Battle Maiden Sword Bomb than a Scrapper can, but the Scrapper will be outputting more damage regardless.


Why do you feel this is a problem?

I feel these issues are a problem because a stigma persists around that Tankers are slow and weak, perhaps more so than they really are. Brutes and Scrappers are wildly more popular and they feel more...'competitive' as ATs. Tankers don't reflect the kind of characters I see with similar powers in comics and they have always felt like they fell so far from what they were intended to be. Those are subjective issues, but I was asked about how I feel.


What would you do to Tankers to improve them?

-Increase Tanker damage caps.

-Add more options and tools for Tankers to improve their offense. That includes ATOs and additions to the Tanker Ancillary/Epic pools (or a new pool itself).

-I'd look into a power/mechanic that allowed Tankers to temporarily trade off survivability for damage. Think the original idea behind Energy Transfer, but trading HP for a damage buff/bonus damage instead, perhaps as a toggle.


And what quantifiable data would you use to justify such a change?

-Look at Brute Resistance and HP caps in regards to how much damage they can output at their damage cap and how that compares to their 'cousin' the Tanker. Those may seem like far off, completely theoretical points that neither AT can't get close to easily. But logically, the further we go with the Incarnate system, the more temp powers, buffs and IOs that are added to the game, the closer those points get. At present, it doesn't take much for my Tanker to hit his Resistance and damage caps; just one or two Kins and a click of my Tier 9.


.

This is what I would do.

Leave the defense and offense values alone. I do not think tanks are wimpy in either area. maybe raise the dmg cap so they benefit from team buffs etc a little more. Cant really raise the def cap, and the res cap is what, 90%? I dont see that going up either.

What i would change is taunt aura effect, it should be a little stronger so taunt aura+punchvoke is enough to pull aggro off of brutes or scrappers. Tanks should be able to draw the attention of everything.

then, I would increase the radius of pbaoe and dmg auras. This would give tanks the ability to affect more foes with punchvoke. It would give them a "bigger" presence in battle.

The result of these changes would be: less taunt, more pawnch! I always thought taunt should be like a last ditch type power used to gain the attention of a foe way out of range, like a foe chasing down your squishy fleeing team mate. taunt shouldnt be on autocast. If i want to insult everything i punch, i will make keybinds with witty lines of dialogue and powexec commands. Otherwise I should be able to just run in and throw a punch at everything in sight until the whole mob is t'd off at me.

Anyway, not sure tanks need much changing, but if i were to alter them, this is what I would do.

let tankers slot taunt io's in their damage auras.

make taunt hit more targets - i could swear it used to hit half the room, and now it seems like it hits 3 guys, tops.

a toggle that allows us to go "berzerk" - become a brute, but with penalties to hp, damage, the like. no fury mechanism, so we cant reach the peak damage potential of a brute. no crits, so we cant get the damage burst that a scrapper, and soon to be stalker, can, but if we choose we can solo more quickly.

but i would worry that asking them to change the tanker class could mean they end up nerfing something.. again..

maybe make our godmodes crashless, and everyone else's has a crash. (can i has my permaunstoppable back?)

I have to ask... for all the suggestions that would make a Tanker more Brute like.

Why not roll a Brute?

I think Tankers should out gauntlet Brutes when attacking AVs. Brutes don't often think like Tankers and if they obtain higher threat can cause more problems than there should be, of which in a team of nincompoops reflects badly on the tanker.

The ported sets such as Dark Armour might do better with some tohit debuff resistance. Half of the set relies on hitting targets. Stick that with a secondary that relies on hitting targets and you could be in trouble time and time again.

Super Reflexes might do better with a greater scaleable res in the passives. They're good and all but a 50 compared to a Invuln 50 with IO sets just doesn't stand up as well by actually not a great amount but a noticeable amount.

The rest have been around long enough as Tanks or have been designed initially with Tankers in mind which I am doubtful of with Dark Armour and Super Reflexes, which are borderline but not as borderline as what Regeneration would of been.

A well built Brute will/can outshine a cheaply built tank, thats normal but it would otherwise take team buffs to make a Brute do and be preferential in many cases and thats normal too. I consider bruising to of been the answer to Tank versus Brute, but a greater threat level would be nice too.

so 18 post in and no one has talked about the aggro cap yet??

I"d like to see tanks being able to get more aggro than other ATs.

I'm not talking about going back to the days when a tank could herd an entire Dreck map, but it would be nice to be able to hold more aggro and not have a scrappers taunt aura steal your thunder!

I think many will agree that Tankers are fine on their own, it's just that too much of the game has been tweaked to allow other ATs to trivialize them. I don't want my Tanker to outdamage a Brute, that would go against both theme and common sense ; however when a /Traps Corruptor can have the same defense levels as my Shield/ Tanker and do more damage at a distance, I feel I'm REALLY not needed anymore. Moreso when I'm playing a SR/ Tanker and CONTROLLERS peel the aggro off me unless I'm spamming Taunt.

Now, it's clear that it's way past the point where defense mechanics and caps could be tweaked game-wide to give Tanker their edge back. It would cause riot both in game and in real life, and anyway, with the RNG, even soft-capped will not always turn a Defender into a fortress. But things CAN be done to the Tanker archetype to give it back a role - and even better the role it is meant to occupy.

What I would do is :

- Raise the HP cap on Tankers so there is a REAL gap between them and other Melee ATs. I'm talking easily a thousand hp or two at level 50. When I envision a Tanker, I see it survive even hits that lands and hurt - (s)he just keeps going. Of course, it would ban Regen as a Tanker set, but hey, we can Deal® If it messes up the balance, maybe I'd lower their Regen cap a bit so they can't be turned into Regen toons anyway?

- Raise the benefits they get from their armor sets. If my damage is lower than other ATs, then by damn, I wanna survive long enough to actually apply that damage. 90% res cap is fine and dandy but not if it means spending a billion inf to get there on more than one type. My Elec/ Tank is there Energy-wise, but that's it, and it means that even at 50 I must PICK MY FOES to survive an alpha... And that just ain't right. Same with SR - scaling res should be higher so that even if it lands I can keep helping. RES and DEF holes are okay - no one should be able to survive everything - but the other values should be higher across all sets. Other Melee ATs have the ultimate mitigation - they kill their foes faster. Give us a way to compensate that. Make us weaker than Brutes and Scrapper damage-wise, by all means, but do make us better able to survive where they can't, because that's our role. Which ties in with my third point...

- ...Raise taunt caps across the AT, boost the area and range of Gauntlet, Taunt and auras, and raise WP and SR's auras to REAL taunt values. I'm a tanker. My purpose is to be at the center of a cluster of mobs, slowly chipping at their HP, surviving their hits and keeping them off my partners' backs. I can survive it, they can't, so make it so I can keep more foes off them for longer. Additionally, that would balance higher HPs and armor values, because even with cap'd everything, 30+ mobs shooting/punching/tickling me is BOUND to have an effect. It's a balancing act. Maybe an upsliding taunt cap that raises with my level? Say, 8 at level 1 and 48 at level 50? 16 is just pathetic, especially with the seas of mobs we see in the trials. A widow can boost 255 allies with Linked Minds (not that there'll ever be that many, but the mechanic is there) - why can't I taunt more than ONE SPAWN on an 8-men-team map?

- EDIT : one last change I'd make, but I know it's gonna be very controversial... All those gimmics in the Trials? The unresistable damage, the auto-hit stuff? Flag them so Tankers CAN resist / have a chance to deflect a portion of it. NOT ALL, of course, but enough so that our one and only reason to be - surviving stuff - doesn't get taken away plain and simple. We are the ones that should get a chance to survive what no other can. THAT is the ONLY thing we have that sets us apart from other ATs. If we can't do as much damage, control as well, buff or debuff as well (and let's not bring Incarnate powers in this, you know what I mean) but still are meant to take those blows first, then don't make it so we die just as inescapably as the rest. That just ain't fair.

To summarize, I feel that the Tankers need to have their role confirmed, not repurposed. Make us tougher, more resistant, healthier, and more provoking to compensate. I don't need to be brawnier, or I'd play a Brute. I may take longer to solo a map because of my lower DPS, but I'm not gonna need to sightsee around the hospital as much either.

Right now, you gave Scrappers and Brutes very efficient tools and toys, to the point that Tankers feel like gimped versions of other ATs. Bruising was a nice touch, but we really need to be refocused on what our true calling is.

Man this got verbose fast, didn't it? (Edited for clarity)

I'd change their damage mod from .75 to .749.

Just to piss people off.

Tankers are fine, and anyone who says a scrapper can do their job has no appreciation for gauntlet.

Heroes, Villains ♦ Reviews ♦ Retrospect

How did they 'Raise' scrappers and brutes? Scrapper damage and toughness hasn't changed in years, outside specific sets, and brute damage was reduced.

On SO's there's NO comparison between tanker toughness and brute/scrapper toughness. I've got a level 19 inv tanker I'm tinkering with at the moment and his smash lethal resistance on DOs surpasses most brute sets running toughness on SOs at level 50 (all but inv and elec).

If it weren't for IO defensive bonuses there still would be no question in roles. An SR tanker softcaps on SOs. An SR brute on SOs gets his teeth kicked in trying to tank with his mid 30% defenses. You can't really count outside buffs in this kind of comparison, as they turn any AT into an invincible juggernaut that make both Brute and Tanker a waste of a team slot.

The largest problem with Tankers vs the world these days isn't that the other ATs have been buffed to make them obsolete.

It's the abundance of defense bonuses in IO sets, and even support power sets, being bad game design.