Details on Dark Astoria Makeover?


Agent White

 

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Originally Posted by Noble Savage View Post
Right. The current application is a bit of a 'fake,' it's just a draw distance application (not particle FX). That said, full zone particle FX would be prohibitively expensive, so we'll generate the appropriate atmosphere in other ways.
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It is foggy. Exits are W, S. You hear a Grue.
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Originally Posted by Xanatos View Post
As long as @TheCheshireCat's DA arcs still exist in the MA...then nothing the devs make with their revamp will get to the heart of what it means to be Dark Astoria. Want to see good writing? Check out "Astoria in D Minor"

There's no geek "humour". (hoorb)
There's no spikey shiney armour.
There's no gimmick fights.
There's no uber-lame NPCs stealing the spotlight.
There's no writing telling you how your character is thinking/acting/speaking.

There's just an awesome engaging story that utilizes what we already have to it's maximum potential. If the devs are looking for a direction to take DARK Astoria than this is it. It's just horror. It's amazing.
That is my single all-time favorite MA arc.


If we are to die, let us die like men. -- Patrick Cleburne
----------------------------------------------------------

The rule is that they must be loved. --Jayne Fynes-Clinton, Death of an Abandoned Dog

 

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Originally Posted by rian_frostdrake View Post
as for the circle of thorns, i do wonder some times if that was not the start of a problematic trend in the forums. people snapped to judgement and made a fuss, even though they worked with incomplete information, but they got a win, so i have noticed the community now snaps to judgement and screams very quickly these days.
I'm pretty sure the forums have always been like that. And I'm not rushing to judgement. I'm rushing to provide feedback. The only thing they've said about the zone is that the fog will be gone, so that's all I have to comment on. After the CoT upgrade, I won't assume that the devs understand what it is that I like about Dark Astoria.

I'd add more, but I think I'm just repeating myself now. I think the devs have clearly heard that a lot of people aren't happy with the idea of DA losing the fog and ghosts. Now we'll just have to wait and see what they do.


Avatar: "Cheeky Jack O Lantern" by dimarie

 

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Originally Posted by Bad_Influence View Post
I would be just as fine with the developers scattering groups of empty skulls around the zone, with empty eye-orbits holding bits of decaying phosphorus casting an eerie light.... I don't think we're going to GET that, but it would be cool.

We are also not getting jackolanterns in DA because they're Halloween-specific. They don't frighten me, they are nostalgic. However I like such bits of ambient fluff, and there you have it.

I would also be fine with actual ghosts such as those seen in the Ghost aura, loose in the zone, floating in groups around the cemetary, here and there all over the place. Keep the vanishing people-ghosts and add some traditional ghosts.

You know what else I would like? Remember those awesome red eyes looking in through the windows of the Haunted Mansion? Put 'em in the zone. Scary eyes should peer at you from underneath bushes and from dense patches of shadow.

I like it scary.
During most of the Kane Mansion runs I did, there were a lot of comments about how great the map and general atmosphere was, but also quite a few people I teamed with were wondering why they'd done so much work for a one-off map that'd be locked for 50 weeks every year - and a common bit of speculation was that it was a kind of preview and test for new art assets that'd be reused in some way later on, with Croatoa getting revamped as a 30-40 co-op zone being the most common guess, as it would match the supernatural theme, and was in the right level range to continue the 1-30 revamped from I21.
But now maybe parts of the Kane Mansion will find their way into Dark Astoria instead?


@Golden Girl

City of Heroes comics and artwork

 

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Originally Posted by Flarstux View Post
Instead, the devs choose to continue dismantling the game. Piece by piece, taking the things that have kept me, at least, coming back again and again since I first logged in back in October of 2005. At this point, they should just go ahead and change the name of the game.
That's like saying the Faultline and Atlas revamps were a dismantling of the old zones
They're taking the basic lore of DA, and expanding it to be way more fleshed out - like a smaller version of what they did with Praetoria.


@Golden Girl

City of Heroes comics and artwork

 

Posted

LOL this is going to come accross as a bit self serving but DA is my favorite zone, so much so that my hero main's (Psynder lvl 51 fire/fire/scorpion blaster) back story is completely tied to the events of Dark Astoria, so screwing up the story too much is going to kill my immersion on him dating back to beta lol.


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This thread has confirmed my desire to write up my "if the forumites wrote the lore" thought experiment.

Personally, I never found the fog in and of itself all that spooky. I will miss the ghosts.

I don't think we've heard anything yet about changes to the backstory, involvement of the Furious Well, etc. But I will restate what I've argued elsewhere, that players are not entitled to a say in developing the writing, no matter how invested in the game they. That is the province of artists (developers, in this case). The reader/consumer's province is to accept or to reject the final product. If people are really as angered by the incarnate backstory as they claim to be, perhaps they should begin voting with their feet. (Full disclosure: I'm not particularly impressed with it, but I don't understand why it upsets people, even after umpteen thorough explanations.)


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Originally Posted by Xzero45 View Post
Just because it's Incarnate doesn't mean it's all about the Well of Furies.
It's not about the Puddle unless the devs make it about the Puddle. Just like it's not about Praetoria unless they devs make it about Praetoria. Since they actually seem to think the Puddle is a good idea no matter how often players who are frankly better at putting together a coherent story than they are tell them it's terrible, they're going to keep making Incarnate content about the Puddle.

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Originally Posted by Olantern View Post

I don't think we've heard anything yet about changes to the backstory, involvement of the Furious Well, etc.
Is the Furious Well going to be teaming up with Numina after she makes daddy's skull into a bowling ball?

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But I will restate what I've argued elsewhere, that players are not entitled to a say in developing the writing, no matter how invested in the game they. That is the province of artists (developers, in this case). The reader/consumer's province is to accept or to reject the final product. If people are really as angered by the incarnate backstory as they claim to be, perhaps they should begin voting with their feet.
The presence of feedback threads on the beta forums implies they are looking for feedback. Therefore, players provide feedback. If you don't feel players are entitled to provide feedback on lore, then I hope you haven't provided any feedback or expressed an opinion on any other aspect of the game either, because the development of the whole game is the province of the developers, and you are not entitled to a say.

Edit: I notice that you recently offered some criticism regarding the upcoming superpacks. Perhaps you should vote with your feet and simply not buy them.


Eva Destruction AR/Fire/Munitions Blaster
Darkfire Avenger DM/SD/Body Scrapper

Arc ID#161629 Freaks, Geeks, and Men in Black
Arc ID#431270 Until the End of the World

 

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Originally Posted by Eva Destruction View Post
The thing is, that short draw distance, with things in the fog not being visible until you're right on top of them, was part of the creepy vibe.
I'm not one for crashing into buildings while flying :/ it's semi annoying not able to see where your going



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Originally Posted by Eva Destruction View Post
players who are frankly better at putting together a coherent story than they are
Well, that statement was certainly creative fiction


@Golden Girl

City of Heroes comics and artwork

 

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Originally Posted by Olantern View Post
But I will restate what I've argued elsewhere, that players are not entitled to a say in developing the writing, no matter how invested in the game they. That is the province of artists (developers, in this case). The reader/consumer's province is to accept or to reject the final product. If people are really as angered by the incarnate backstory as they claim to be, perhaps they should begin voting with their feet.
I disagree.

If NCSoft announces their intention to do something to the game, it is my duty to myself as a consumer to give feedback because I want the game to continue to exist and to continue to be a game I enjoy.

If NCSoft says they are going to do X, and I think X will hurt or kill the game, and I do nothing and say nothing, and they do X and I 'vote with my feet' and walk away, I lose. I lose whether they survive or not, by not acting to preserve something I enjoy.

To illustrate via hyperbole:
Cook: "I am going to add peanuts to your meal."
Allergic Diner: "..."
Cook: "Voila! The peanuts have made your meal better!"
Allergic Diner: "Goodbye. You have ruined my meal by adding peanuts."
Cook: "???"

I am not entitled to dictate policy. I am not employed by them as a writer or designer.

But I am certainly going to vote a thousand times with my mouth in order to avoid ever needing or even wanting to vote with my feet.


Story Arcs I created:

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Cosplay Madness!: (#3643) Neutral vs Custom Foes. Heroes at a pop culture convention!

Kiss Hello Goodbye: (#156389) Heroic vs Custom Foes. Film Noir/Hardboiled detective adventure!

 

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I am glad to hear that the fog will still be present to a degree. To be sure, I was not a fan of flying through that zone and nearly running into buildings half the time, but I enjoyed the fact that it was a unique effect.

I am also glad to hear that it will become an entirely Incarnate themed zone that offers multiple ways for 1-8 players to make progress towards being an Incarnate. That thrills me to no end because, while it still sounds like it will be slower than running the trials (as promised), it also sounds like a character could spend a night running missions and street sweeping and still feel like they made some progress towards their goals.

As for the Well:

It is an integral part of the game's history, having granted powers to some of our most iconic characters (Statesman, Lord Recluse, Tyrant, etc.). I acknowledge that, and for that reason, I believe it should play a role in being an Incarnate, though I do not believe it should be the only way to gain "great power." However, the problem then is that the Devs cannot possibly input a system with any sort of structure that works for 100% of the players.

Up until now, I have been able to write off my character's specific Incarnate powers as further power mastery, while avoiding any influence from the Well:

  • Ice Blaster's Cryonic Judgement and Intuition Alpha as a stronger cold blast and more strength to his freeze rays.
  • Elec Blaster's Ion Judgement and Agility Alpha as (again) a stronger blast and further sapping ability.
  • Super Soldier's Cardiac Alpha as a scientific enhancement that allows him to battle tirelessly.
  • Energy Blaster's Paralytic Interface as a tech enhancement to his gauntlets allowing for better targeting.
  • Archery Blaster's Spiritual Alpha as, well, a way to no longer wait for "arrows to recharge"


I could go on, but you get the idea. As far as I'm concerned, they can write their game however they see fit as long as they allow the wiggle-room in the story for us justify these abilities however we see fit within our specific characters.


@Winter. Because I'm Winter. Period.
I am a blaster first, and an alt-oholic second.

 

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Originally Posted by Eva Destruction View Post
Since they actually seem to think the Puddle is a good idea no matter how often players who are frankly better at putting together a coherent story than they are tell them it's terrible, they're going to keep making Incarnate content about the Puddle.
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Originally Posted by Golden Girl View Post
Well, that statement was certainly creative fiction
With the part you quoted put back into its context, not so much.

Look, there are some GREAT arcs with GREAT writing. There are some WONDERFULLY WRITTEN stories covering multiple arcs. There are other arcs and stories in the game that are lame to terrible, and yes, there are players who write far better than that.

It is a matter of taste, and there are plenty of folks who either 1) like/love the Well of Furies/Incarnate lore and/or 2) do not care about whether or not the writing is good or bad, they just want to play 50+ level stuff. More power to them, and may they get lots of content to play somewhere other than DA.

I think the rationale for the Incarnate system, ie, the Well of Furies, is terrible, terrible writing and I am chagrined to hear that DA will be absorbed into it. There are a number of players I would trust to do a better job than the Devs have with the Well of Furies.


"How do you know you are on the side of good?" a Paragon citizen asked him. "How can we even know what is 'good'?"

"The Most High has spoken, even with His own blood," Melancton replied. "Surely we know."

 

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The reason why I think it won't have to do with the Well is because, for starters, the Well is all over Tyrant. All of it's attention would be focused on it's "Champion" during this time where he needs as much power as possible. That means anything the Well does would be for the Praetorian storyline, which is currently still ongoing somewhere else entirely.

My other reason being that, since we're going to be facing an actual god and not a god-like being, who else would be sent in to tackle such a powerful threat than an Incarnate? Thus, we've got Incarnate content. Doesn't need to involve the Well at all. We're just facing an Incarnate-level threat. Something worthy of facing down a level 50+.

The devs have said that they're sticking true to Dark Astoria's lore. I'm willing to give them the BotD and see them bust out something great that involves the Banished Pantheon and some nightmarish plot involving the god Mot.


 

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Going by the screenshots, the vibe I'm getting from DA is of a dream/nightmare - the war walls are colored blood red, so the whole zone light seems to have a faint red tint to it - and combined with the giant bones and twisted rocks, it makes the place seem slightly unreal and hellish.

EDIT: Some mroe about the lore - Mot is waking up because he's responing to the amount of death and destricution that there's been inParagon City for the past few years.
There is heroic and evil content in the zone, but the main story line is co-op, but there are points in the storyline when you can do things that are good or evil, and the contacts will talk to you in a different way based on your morality.
The new Trial, "Dilemma Diabolique" sees Diabolique trying to become death incarnate by tapping into the power of Mot, and it's up to the players to stop her, and protect both Primal Earth and Praetoria form her - she'll also be wearing an upgraded costume.
The mission arcs and the Trial map have a lot of new art assets, including a "disgusting" moving fllor on the Trial, and take place not only in DA but "other palces" too.


@Golden Girl

City of Heroes comics and artwork

 

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Originally Posted by Golden Girl View Post
The new Trial, "Dilemma Diabolique" sees Diabolique trying to become death incarnate by tapping into the power of Mot, and it's up to the players to stop her, and protect both Primal Earth and Praetoria form her - she'll also be wearing an upgraded costume.
Hrmph. Saving the world from villains (that are apparently much better at being villains than me) is getting a bit old.


Thought for the day:

"Hope is the first step on the road to disappointment."

=][=

 

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Originally Posted by Slaunyeh View Post
Hrmph. Saving the world from villains (that are apparently much better at being villains than me) is getting a bit old.
I'd like to see more variation between the sides too, but in this particular case, a team-up between Mot and the Banished Pantheon is something for everyone to worry about. (Got plans for world domination? Wait, oh sorry, Mot just ended civilization as we know it. Better luck next time!) This isn't some second-hand Incarnate we're dealing with. Mot has the potential to be a threat on the same scale as the Rikti have been at times, and think about all the changes they caused, from the war walls to the formation of Vanguard. If not for their weakness to magic, the Rikti would have ravaged Primal Earth as they have many other Earths. What's to stop Mot from finishing what the Rikti started? I don't know; but it sounds like it's going to be everyone's problem to solve.


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Originally Posted by Captain-Electric View Post
(Got plans for world domination? Wait, oh sorry, Mot just ended civilization as we know it. Better luck next time!)
Some villains just want to end the civilization. We should be able to choose to fail to help Mot and Diabolique.


 

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Originally Posted by Captain-Electric View Post
I'd like to see more variation between the sides too, but in this particular case, a team-up between Mot and the Banished Pantheon is something for everyone to worry about. (Got plans for world domination? Wait, oh sorry, Mot just ended civilization as we know it. Better luck next time!) This isn't some second-hand Incarnate we're dealing with. Mot has the potential to be a threat on the same scale as the Rikti have been at times, and think about all the changes they caused, from the war walls to the formation of Vanguard. If not for their weakness to magic, the Rikti would have ravaged Primal Earth as they have many other Earths. What's to stop Mot from finishing what the Rikti started? I don't know; but it sounds like it's going to be everyone's problem to solve.
Trouble is, that's the excuse every time. Why? Because it's easy to write a hero story arc, and then tag on an "oh, and villains also want to stop this so they get to be heroes again". Diabolique isn't worried about the end of world. She's trying to take Mot's power for herself. Why, hello villain angle.

This means that when they finally DO introduce a credible galactic-scale threat that we all should care about (Ruularu? The Comming Storm?) the reaction will be more like "gah, we have to save the day again". Villains being forced into doing the right thing should be special and rare, or it loses all significance.

The only thing these "stop the real villain" TFs accomplishes, is to drive home the fact that I'm not the real villain. At level 5, I'm a 'global threat'. At level 45, I save the world (literally). At level 50+ I save the world again and again and again?

Screw the world.


Thought for the day:

"Hope is the first step on the road to disappointment."

=][=

 

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Originally Posted by Jagged View Post
I am hoping that the SSA missions are giving them practice writing a story and mission that can be run from both sides.
Hope so! And the description of the regular story arcs in DA sound promising as well.

Mostly I just think it would be a shame if future large-scale events (such as the Coming Storm) was met with indifference because the 'trick' to unify heroes and villains have been used for (almost) all new content since issue 7.


Thought for the day:

"Hope is the first step on the road to disappointment."

=][=

 

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Originally Posted by Slaunyeh View Post
Trouble is, that's the excuse every time. Why? Because it's easy to write a hero story arc, and then tag on an "oh, and villains also want to stop this so they get to be heroes again". Diabolique isn't worried about the end of world. She's trying to take Mot's power for herself. Why, hello villain angle.

This means that when they finally DO introduce a credible galactic-scale threat that we all should care about (Ruularu? The Comming Storm?) the reaction will be more like "gah, we have to save the day again". Villains being forced into doing the right thing should be special and rare, or it loses all significance.

The only thing these "stop the real villain" TFs accomplishes, is to drive home the fact that I'm not the real villain. At level 5, I'm a 'global threat'. At level 45, I save the world (literally). At level 50+ I save the world again and again and again?

Screw the world.
My number one problem with all co-op content, bolded emphasis mine. The Devs have become lazy with this kind of content, using the 'greater threat' over and over again.

It was fun with the Rikti
It was frustrating with Cimerora
It got worn out with Incarnates
It was a dead horse by First Ward

The Devs really need a new excuse for this kind of thing. Or, heavens forbid, they might actually create some co-op content that has a more villainous bent to it that heroes grudgingly go along with for the 'greater good'. *sigh*


@Dante EU - Union Roleplayer and Altisis Victim
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Originally Posted by Dante View Post
My number one problem with all co-op content, bolded emphasis mine. The Devs have become lazy with this kind of content, using the 'greater threat' over and over again.

It was fun with the Rikti
It was frustrating with Cimerora
It got worn out with Incarnates
It was a dead horse by First Ward

The Devs really need a new excuse for this kind of thing. Or, heavens forbid, they might actually create some co-op content that has a more villainous bent to it that heroes grudgingly go along with for the 'greater good'. *sigh*
If the devs kill off the freedom phalanx, recluse, and recluse's lieutenants, allowed us to take over from them with desdemona/maelstrom as a right-hand, and then allow us to hire NPCs to form our own Freedom Phalanx / Villain Council - then us getting involved with stuff would make a lot more sense.

Emperor Cole is invading?

Hero version:
"Captain Hero! Now that the Freedom Phalanx are gone you're our only hope! Please help us! What do we do?"

Villain version:
"Dr. Villain! My lord! Since you took over Arachnos and the Rogue Isles all has been well. But now Emperor Cole is threatening to invade your empire. What would you have us do?"

Same result: get everyone together and kick his ***.

The difference? We'd be the main characters. The storylines would fit our characters. And the potential for sandbox creativity would be of proportions astronomically more wonderful than "sup a magic well makes you good at shooting".


 

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Originally Posted by Dante View Post
It was a dead horse by First Ward
First Ward is a prime example because they gave up even trying to explain why you spontaneously decide to help out. Oh sure, the doorman guy does a vague "there's heroes helping out in there, I bet you wouldn't be able to help out nearly as much as a hero". And apparently I'm an idiot and fall for it? Or something? I don't know. I rather liked the story in First Ward, but it was clear that it wasn't written for me. At all.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dante View Post
The Devs really need a new excuse for this kind of thing. Or, heavens forbid, they might actually create some co-op content that has a more villainous bent to it that heroes grudgingly go along with for the 'greater good'. *sigh*
I'm still waiting for the Westin Phipps co-op trial. If I can save the world, surely heroes can burn a few school books.


Thought for the day:

"Hope is the first step on the road to disappointment."

=][=

 

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Originally Posted by Slaunyeh View Post
The only thing these "stop the real villain" TFs accomplishes, is to drive home the fact that I'm not the real villain. At level 5, I'm a 'global threat'. At level 45, I save the world (literally). At level 50+ I save the world again and again and again?
At level 45-50 you decide to save the world from yourself. As stupid as all that "Destined One" crap was, at least it's clear that you are a real threat.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Slaunyeh View Post
First Ward is a prime example because they gave up even trying to explain why you spontaneously decide to help out. Oh sure, the doorman guy does a vague "there's heroes helping out in there, I bet you wouldn't be able to help out nearly as much as a hero". And apparently I'm an idiot and fall for it? Or something? I don't know. I rather liked the story in First Ward, but it was clear that it wasn't written for me. At all.
I really don't see much incentive for heroes to help out either, honestly. The hook is essentially "there's an interdimensional war going on and we need to you to save a kitten from a tree." Oh, and before you can save that kitten you need to talk to five people just to find the little girl that lost her kitten, and prove yourself before she'll tell you where it is.

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I'm still waiting for the Westin Phipps co-op trial. If I can save the world, surely heroes can burn a few school books.
Um, why? Westin Phipps is the Nelson Muntz of CoV. Real villains don't work for bullies, they have bullies work for them.


Eva Destruction AR/Fire/Munitions Blaster
Darkfire Avenger DM/SD/Body Scrapper

Arc ID#161629 Freaks, Geeks, and Men in Black
Arc ID#431270 Until the End of the World