Details on Dark Astoria Makeover?
By
Agent White,
Posted on: 2011-11-21 09:32 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
Quote:
A threat to whom, exactly? First I save the world (from myself, even!). Then I save the world from the Rikti. And then I go on a save-the-world spree. I don't sound like a particular big threat. |
Originally Posted by Eva Destruction
At level 45-50 you decide to save the world from yourself. As stupid as all that "Destined One" crap was, at least it's clear that you are a real threat.
|
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Eva Destruction
I really don't see much incentive for heroes to help out either, honestly. The hook is essentially "there's an interdimensional war going on and we need to you to save a kitten from a tree." Oh, and before you can save that kitten you need to talk to five people just to find the little girl that lost her kitten, and prove yourself before she'll tell you where it is.
|
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Eva Destruction
Um, why? Westin Phipps is the Nelson Muntz of CoV. Real villains don't work for bullies, they have bullies work for them.
|
The thought of hero characters being "forced" to work for Westin Phipps amuses me (I primarily play red-side, so sadistic glee is perfectly in-character!)
Thought for the day:
"Hope is the first step on the road to disappointment."
=][=
Quote:
I would jump for joy (as would all of my villains) if any or all of these were introduced to the game. |
Originally Posted by Kitsune9tails
IMHO, although it would be extra effort, it would be relatively simple:
Have an extra, villain-only arc where the player villains can optionally attempt to either help the main threat or impair the heroes' efforts to fight it. By the end of this arc, the main threat is either targeting you or has betrayed you most foully, but in any case makes it clear they will no longer even pretend to work with you. From there, you may join the main storyline. This could work for both villains ("How dare you betray me first!") and rogues ("Paid in lead? Aw sh-"), and in some case, vigilantes ("But you said you were going to help me destroy Doctor Naughty!"). If the hero only players complain (and they will), add an extra hero-only or co-op mission where they get to turn a minor minion good, or punch an extra villain in the face or something. In fact, something like this could (and in some cases, definitely should) be retrofitted into existing zones and arcs. - In Cimemora, you start off helping Romulus and desstroy one of Daedalus' inventions for him. Then you realize he's working with Nazis. Because even villains hate Nazis. - In the Incarnate storyline, you start off pledging Loyalty to Cole and reporting on the activities of the Primals. Then you turn against him when you realize he attempts to kill you (if Primal) or capture you and surgically remove your identity (if Praetorian). - In First Ward, you start off working for Master Midnight and defeat one of the First Ward Signature heroes for him. Then you catch him agreeing to sell you out to his True Love. - In Dark Astoria, you could start off working with Diabolique, planning on stealing the power of Death Incarnate from her when she reveals how to get it. You steal an artifact for her, and then she tries to murder you (surprise surprise). ... In addition or as an alternative, many co-op missions could spawn an extra villain-only objective. This could do nothing but let you feel villainous, but it could also give some minor reward such as an Inspiration, some xp, or a temp power. Examples: - You click a glowy to steal loot related to the storyline. - You kidnap an npc while nobody's looking. - You kill a defeated npc to make sure he isn't a future threat. ...etc Even something as simple as having the villain side Contact be someone you threaten, blackmail, or bribe into allowing you into the storyline could work. |
Villains are difficult because of how the contact system works. In one way or another, we end up working for someone. However, recent arcs such as Dean McArthur or Leonard have actually allowed us a bit more freedom to feel villainous, even if the story is railroaded. Those contacts actually respect us for a change, rather than making us out to be some kind of hired grunt. Co-op contacts don't even have the decency to offer us payment sometimes.
@Dante EU - Union Roleplayer and Altisis Victim
The Militia: Union RP Supergroup - www.themilitia.org.uk
Quote:
I think the last time villains got to be a big threat to anyone was in the LRSF. Correct me if I'm wrong but everything else at level 50 since seems to be either co-op or clearing up our own mess (Barracuda for example).
|
Originally Posted by Slaunyeh
A threat to whom, exactly? First I save the world (from myself, even!). Then I save the world from the Rikti. And then I go on a save-the-world spree. I don't sound like a particular big threat.
|
@Dante EU - Union Roleplayer and Altisis Victim
The Militia: Union RP Supergroup - www.themilitia.org.uk
Quote:
I was looking over the issues after I7 for villainous content, earlier. I might have missed a few, but what I stumbled on was: |
Originally Posted by Dante
I think the last time villains got to be a big threat to anyone was in the LRSF. Correct me if I'm wrong but everything else at level 50 since seems to be either co-op or clearing up our own mess (Barracuda for example).
|
Ouroboros: Tesseract is the villain-specific contact, I think. I don't really remember her arc though, or what you do in it. All of Ouroboros is pretty silly, red-side, anyway (oh you're irredeemably evil? Why here, have the keys to my time travelling phone booth! What could possibly go wrong?)
5th Column Strike Force: It is villain specific. But you do end up "having to clean up the mess you made" in a distinctly heroic fashion. There's no "how could we profit from this..?" There's just "oh noes, go save the world from Reichsmann!" That's almost worse, since it isn't even co-op.
Lord Recluse Strike Force: Never done it, but presumably it's not very heroic.
I do get why co-op is an attractive game model though. Sharing content between sides is a practical necessity. And I do understand that it's much easier to go "oh, I guess villains probably don't want the world to end either"", than it is to justify heroes doing something nasty.
It just... gets really old.
Thought for the day:
"Hope is the first step on the road to disappointment."
=][=
Villains will always get the short end of the stick in terms of the co-op stuff. What's made that fact so much worse is the awesome villain story lines we've gotten like Dean, Vincent, the tips missions, and the Mercy content now. They've shown us that they can really make us feel like villains if they put their minds to it. I'd be willing to bet that any villain Incarnate paths stories will probably rock, but the trials and everything else will always be the put aside everything about yourself and do something out of character. It's just never the Heroes that have to do it.
Quote:
Let's keep focus here.|
Originally Posted by Mad_Scientist_JC
It's just never the Heroes that have to do it.
|
I don't care if my Heroes ever get a storyline that forces them to be dark. In fact, I'd prefer they didn't (an option to be dark is different).
I want my Villains to have chances to be villainous inside of co-op content.
I don't want to make hero players sad, I want to make villain players happy.
Story Arcs I created:
Every Rose: (#17702) Villainous vs Legacy Chain. Forget Arachnos, join the CoT!
Cosplay Madness!: (#3643) Neutral vs Custom Foes. Heroes at a pop culture convention!
Kiss Hello Goodbye: (#156389) Heroic vs Custom Foes. Film Noir/Hardboiled detective adventure!
No, you're right, choice is the real issue.
Quote:
The issue there is I don't think everyone sees those two things as mutually exclusive. It really feels like people don't think both of those things can happen at the same time. Now that may just be because the dissenters are more outspoken. It's like with the Mercy content, people complained that you're were too villainous even though it gave Rogue options in all the dialogue I saw. It seems like the second a villainous option appears in anything people attack it.
|
Originally Posted by Kitsune9tails
I don't want to make hero players sad, I want to make villain players happy.
|
Quote:
I was referring to the part where you save the world from yourself. You could have gone ahead and destroyed it, but you chose not to. The future is safe only because you let it be. Then you walk up to Recluse and demand his respect.|
Originally Posted by Slaunyeh
A threat to whom, exactly? First I save the world (from myself, even!). Then I save the world from the Rikti. And then I go on a save-the-world spree. I don't sound like a particular big threat.
|
And then he sends you out to beat up his ex so you can wear a Servant of Recluse badge over your head, but that's neither here nor there.
Quote:
|
Oh, I'm an equal opportunity kind of guy. I don't think a lot of heroes would appreciate someone like Westin Phipps as a co-op contact. Just as I don't appreciate a lot of the thinly veiled co-op-but-really-hero content. The thought of hero characters being "forced" to work for Westin Phipps amuses me (I primarily play red-side, so sadistic glee is perfectly in-character!) |
Peter Themari on the other hand....
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Slaunyeh
Ouroboros: Tesseract is the villain-specific contact, I think. I don't really remember her arc though, or what you do in it. All of Ouroboros is pretty silly, red-side, anyway (oh you're irredeemably evil? Why here, have the keys to my time travelling phone booth! What could possibly go wrong?)
|
Quote:
| 5th Column Strike Force: It is villain specific. But you do end up "having to clean up the mess you made" in a distinctly heroic fashion. There's no "how could we profit from this..?" There's just "oh noes, go save the world from Reichsmann!" That's almost worse, since it isn't even co-op. |
Quote:
|
Lord Recluse Strike Force: Never done it, but presumably it's not very heroic.
|
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Kitsune9tails
I don't care if my Heroes ever get a storyline that forces them to be dark. In fact, I'd prefer they didn't (an option to be dark is different).
I want my Villains to have chances to be villainous inside of co-op content. I don't want to make hero players sad, I want to make villain players happy. |
Eva Destruction AR/Fire/Munitions Blaster
Darkfire Avenger DM/SD/Body Scrapper
Arc ID#161629 Freaks, Geeks, and Men in Black
Arc ID#431270 Until the End of the World
Quote:
Pretty much this.|
Originally Posted by Eva Destruction
I only want to force heroes to do morally questionable things if the alternative is making villains play hero tag-along. If heroic and villainous content were equal I would have no interest in making heroes do anything dark.
|
I don't really want to make blue-side players suffer (at least not OOCly). We do have some in-game examples of well-made villain content. And of course it's possible to add both credible villainous and heroic angles to co-op content (such as Kitsune's ideas).
It just that they haven't made much of an effort at this point.
Thought for the day:
"Hope is the first step on the road to disappointment."
=][=
Quote:
That'äs because that'd make them vigilantes - and the game isn't called City of Vigilantes |
Originally Posted by Mad_Scientist_JC
Villains will always get the short end of the stick in terms of the co-op stuff. What's made that fact so much worse is the awesome villain story lines we've gotten like Dean, Vincent, the tips missions, and the Mercy content now. They've shown us that they can really make us feel like villains if they put their minds to it. I'd be willing to bet that any villain Incarnate paths stories will probably rock, but the trials and everything else will always be the put aside everything about yourself and do something out of character. It's just never the Heroes that have to do it.
|
@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
Quote:
Only a Villain could wite that without realizing how silly it sounded |
Originally Posted by Eva Destruction
I really don't see much incentive for heroes to help out either, honestly.
|
The incentive for Heroes to help people is helping people
@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Mad_Scientist_JC
Villains will always get the short end of the stick in terms of the co-op stuff. What's made that fact so much worse is the awesome villain story lines we've gotten like Dean, Vincent, the tips missions, and the Mercy content now. They've shown us that they can really make us feel like villains if they put their minds to it. I'd be willing to bet that any villain Incarnate paths stories will probably rock, but the trials and everything else will always be the put aside everything about yourself and do something out of character. It's just never the Heroes that have to do it.
|
I understand where you are coming from but I think there are a lot of factors other than just .. the well of the furies involved in what we have to this point.
1. There are plenty of comic book references where heroes and villains that were normally sworn enemies set aside their differences to deal with a greater threat. That said we know from all the lore we have been given that Cole plans to attack, devastate and enslave primal earth. Now in doing that we can assume he has every intention of defeating and destroying any being that displays powers that may challenge him and his forces. So the question is.. What good does it do to ignore the threat and rob banks, kidnap peole, etc.. if you know you are eventually going to be dead. So reason #1 is Self reservation
2. As we all know NC Soft like many other businesses has made some layoffs in the past year or so do to the economy. There are less staff personel trying to continue the traditions established in the past 7 years. Despite that they have revamped the tutorial, given us 4 trials to daye with more on the way, are in the process of revamping Dark Astoria and continue to give us new powers etc along with the SSA that do provide similar but different stories for both red and blue side. So reason #2 is staff limitations.. imagine how much more work would be required to come up with seperate red and blue side incarnate trials
3. While many players enjoy both the red and blue side the fact is there are a great number more players hero side than there are villain.. and I am using my experiences on Virtue...one of the servers with high populations, when I make that statement. A coop trial allows players from both sides to combine forces to form 16 to 24 man teams. If we had seperate hero and villain trials I think there would be times even on the servers with heavy traffic where a red side league would find it difficult to find 24 fifty level villains to run a trial. On servers with a lot less traffic the problem would be even greater. So reason # 3 is making it easier to actually form a full sized 24 man league to run a trial
4. History of the game has shown that despite the arguments we some times see here players enjoy coop content.. It used to be the only time a hero and villain did anything together was during the events missions running out of pocket d. Back then people were actually here on these same forums expressing a desire for an increase in missions where their villains could team u with heroes. Then we got our first coop zone in the rwz. This turned a vastly underused hazard zone into arguably the most oular in the game. For the first time outside of a holliday event heroes and villains could combine forces to run contact missions and join a task force. Then they added Cimerora and the ITF which is probably the most run tf in game. So reason # 4 ... It certainly seems from the number of players using the content that the majorority of the player base likes doing coop content and it is good business to give your customers what they actually want.
It sounds like there will be options available when they convert Dark Astoria for seerate hero and villain missions that will allow a slower paced ascent to incarnate abilities but for now we have what we have and some enjoy it while others dont.
�We�re always the good guys. In D&D, we�re lawful good. In City of Heroes we�re the heroes. In Grand Theft Auto we pay the prostitutes promptly and never hit them with a bat.� � Leonard
�Those women are prostitutes? You said they were raising money for stem cell research!� � Sheldon
Quote:
That's incorrect - the dev team was ramped up for GR, as that release required them to work on 4-6 zones at the same time, plus 4 sets of 1-20 story content, plus 2 sets of 20-50 Tip missions, plus the Incarnate system, as well as all the work on ultra mode and the massive "hidden" work needed to make side switching a reality.
|
Originally Posted by Wicked_Wendy
As we all know NC Soft like many other businesses has made some layoffs in the past year or so do to the economy. There are less staff personel trying to continue the traditions established in the past 7 years.
|
@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
Quote:
Spider-Man's incentive to help people was guilt over his Uncle Ben's death. Batman's incentive was vengeance and to overcome his feelings of helplessness at the time of his Parents' death. Superman knows that if he acted anyway beside altruistic he would be utterly ostracized by the only place he has to call home. Helping people is normally just a side effect of Heroes dealing with their own issues. The biggest difference between a Hero and Villain backstory is typically something guilting the hero into being good. It's the reason people accept that someone would put their lives aside to help others. Now I know I'll never change your opinion on this matter, but you really only take the most shallow interpretation of things. We look up to a hero not because of the feats he preforms but the things he sacrifices to preform them. Hell, City of Heroes has proven anyone can save the day, and that doesn't make them a hero. It's what people give up that makes them a hero and no one gives up everything without a good reason to.
|
Originally Posted by Golden Girl
Only a Villain could wite that without realizing how silly it sounded
The incentive for Heroes to help people is helping people |
Quote:
Oddly enough, when Going Rogue went live, my badge-collecting hero switched sides and ran the various missions/arcs to get the redside badges. And yet to this day I've never ever ever never ever felt the need to whine on the forums about how the devs were persecuting me by making me do villain content to get my shines. Go figure!
|
Originally Posted by Slaunyeh
The thought of hero characters being "forced" to work for Westin Phipps amuses me
|
I don't doubt that the reasons that have been given in the storylines for the most part give the 'generic' villain a reason to fight the good fight.
But for story-oriented players, the reason to be a villain is not just a bunch of additional zones with xp in them, it's the chance to do naughty things, even (and in some cases especially) if they result in being put (very temporarily) behind bars, left behind in an explosion 'no one could have survived', dropped into a vat of disfiguring or mutating chemicals, etc.
The heroes will save the day. That's cool.
But let some villains try to double cross them, to steal the dangerous technology, to summon the fell abominable entity even while they are protecting their own interests while saving the world: it's more work, but that's what villains do!
- We have all been kidnapped to a distant world, where we must vie against each other for the amusement of a Sufficiently Advanced Alien? Doctor Doom says: I'm stealing that power. Galactus says: What planet? You mean this snack here? (Secret Wars)
- The entire continuum of multiverses is being destroyed by the Anti-Monitor! We have to team up with the heroes to stop it! Various villains: Or we have to team up with the Anti-Monitor to survive it! (Crisis on Infinite Earths)
The SSAs are excellent villainous content. Just add a bit of that to the co-op and we're golden (er, so to speak 
)
Story Arcs I created:
Every Rose: (#17702) Villainous vs Legacy Chain. Forget Arachnos, join the CoT!
Cosplay Madness!: (#3643) Neutral vs Custom Foes. Heroes at a pop culture convention!
Kiss Hello Goodbye: (#156389) Heroic vs Custom Foes. Film Noir/Hardboiled detective adventure!
Quote:
That is a tad different though. At the very least, your character became a villain. Sure, you were forced to become a villain [at least mechanically]. But it is slightly different.
|
Originally Posted by Chyron HR
Oddly enough, when Going Rogue went live, my badge-collecting hero switched sides and ran the various missions/arcs to get the redside badges. And yet to this day I've never ever ever never ever felt the need to whine on the forums about how the devs were persecuting me by making me do villain content to get my shines. Go figure!
|
Let's Dance!
Quote:
Praetoria also did it well, actually, with loyalists and resistance infiltrating eachother left and right. Want me to do heroic content? Well, fine. Let me go undercover as a hero and give me the option to sabotage something down the line.
|
Originally Posted by Kitsune9tails
The SSAs are excellent villainous content. Just add a bit of that to the co-op and we're golden (er, so to speak
) |
Thought for the day:
"Hope is the first step on the road to disappointment."
=][=
*Holds up gruel bowl*
Yes, more of that, please
Story Arcs I created:
Every Rose: (#17702) Villainous vs Legacy Chain. Forget Arachnos, join the CoT!
Cosplay Madness!: (#3643) Neutral vs Custom Foes. Heroes at a pop culture convention!
Kiss Hello Goodbye: (#156389) Heroic vs Custom Foes. Film Noir/Hardboiled detective adventure!
Quote:
There's a difference between doing villain content because you decided to turn your hero into a villain, and having to do heroesque content as a villain if you want to do any content from this decade.
|
Originally Posted by Chyron HR
Oddly enough, when Going Rogue went live, my badge-collecting hero switched sides and ran the various missions/arcs to get the redside badges. And yet to this day I've never ever ever never ever felt the need to whine on the forums about how the devs were persecuting me by making me do villain content to get my shines. Go figure!
|
Thought for the day:
"Hope is the first step on the road to disappointment."
=][=
Quote:
Therein is the problem with an MMO, though - You can't make everyone the "main character" of massive word events like that, so nobody can be. Everyone would want to be the "main character", and those who aren't would get pissed over those who are.
|
Originally Posted by Xanatos
If the devs kill off the freedom phalanx, recluse, and recluse's lieutenants, allowed us to take over from them with desdemona/maelstrom as a right-hand, and then allow us to hire NPCs to form our own Freedom Phalanx / Villain Council - then us getting involved with stuff would make a lot more sense.
Emperor Cole is invading? Hero version: "Captain Hero! Now that the Freedom Phalanx are gone you're our only hope! Please help us! What do we do?" Villain version: "Dr. Villain! My lord! Since you took over Arachnos and the Rogue Isles all has been well. But now Emperor Cole is threatening to invade your empire. What would you have us do?" Same result: get everyone together and kick his ***. The difference? We'd be the main characters. The storylines would fit our characters. And the potential for sandbox creativity would be of proportions astronomically more wonderful than "sup a magic well makes you good at shooting". |
Virtue Server
Avatar art by Daggerpoint
Quote:
Nah, you just institute a flexible reality.|
Originally Posted by Tyger42
Therein is the problem with an MMO, though - You can't make everyone the "main character" of massive word events like that, so nobody can be. Everyone would want to be the "main character", and those who aren't would get pissed over those who are.
|
Every individual player is the Head Dorko of the Freedom Phalanx.
It's just a case of allowing the disconnect to occur and moving on. Similar to how every one who has gone through the RWZ arcs are the ones rescued Decker.
Let's Dance!
Quote:
Or say...Operation: Destiny?
|
Originally Posted by reiella
Nah, you just institute a flexible reality.
Every individual player is the Head Dorko of the Freedom Phalanx. It's just a case of allowing the disconnect to occur and moving on. Similar to how every one who has gone through the RWZ arcs are the ones rescued Decker. |
The Abrams is one of the most effective war machines on the planet. - R. Lee Ermy.
Q: How do you wreck an Abrams?
A: You crash into another one.
Quote:
The same argument can be made for all of the content in the game:|
Originally Posted by Tyger42
Therein is the problem with an MMO, though - You can't make everyone the "main character" of massive word events like that, so nobody can be. Everyone would want to be the "main character", and those who aren't would get pissed over those who are.
|
Player 1: I just beat the Lady Grey Task Force and saved the world.
Player 2: No you didn't, I did.
In a team setting? Main character = person with the star.
My idea stands.
IMHO, although it would be extra effort, it would be relatively simple:
Have an extra, villain-only arc where the player villains can optionally attempt to either help the main threat or impair the heroes' efforts to fight it. By the end of this arc, the main threat is either targeting you or has betrayed you most foully, but in any case makes it clear they will no longer even pretend to work with you. From there, you may join the main storyline.
This could work for both villains ("How dare you betray me first!") and rogues ("Paid in lead? Aw sh-"), and in some case, vigilantes ("But you said you were going to help me destroy Doctor Naughty!").
If the hero only players complain (and they will), add an extra hero-only or co-op mission where they get to turn a minor minion good, or punch an extra villain in the face or something.
In fact, something like this could (and in some cases, definitely should) be retrofitted into existing zones and arcs.
- In Cimemora, you start off helping Romulus and desstroy one of Daedalus' inventions for him. Then you realize he's working with Nazis. Because even villains hate Nazis.
- In the Incarnate storyline, you start off pledging Loyalty to Cole and reporting on the activities of the Primals. Then you turn against him when you realize he attempts to kill you (if Primal) or capture you and surgically remove your identity (if Praetorian).
- In First Ward, you start off working for Master Midnight and defeat one of the First Ward Signature heroes for him. Then you catch him agreeing to sell you out to his True Love.
- In Dark Astoria, you could start off working with Diabolique, planning on stealing the power of Death Incarnate from her when she reveals how to get it. You steal an artifact for her, and then she tries to murder you (surprise surprise).
...
In addition or as an alternative, many co-op missions could spawn an extra villain-only objective. This could do nothing but let you feel villainous, but it could also give some minor reward such as an Inspiration, some xp, or a temp power.
Examples:
- You click a glowy to steal loot related to the storyline.
- You kidnap an npc while nobody's looking.
- You kill a defeated npc to make sure he isn't a future threat.
...etc
Even something as simple as having the villain side Contact be someone you threaten, blackmail, or bribe into allowing you into the storyline could work.
Story Arcs I created:
Every Rose: (#17702) Villainous vs Legacy Chain. Forget Arachnos, join the CoT!
Cosplay Madness!: (#3643) Neutral vs Custom Foes. Heroes at a pop culture convention!
Kiss Hello Goodbye: (#156389) Heroic vs Custom Foes. Film Noir/Hardboiled detective adventure!