SSA SPOILERS: He's WHO?!
Thought for the day:
"Hope is the first step on the road to disappointment."
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Also, anyone who did it Redside. Do we know WHY they wanted Alexis dead? Was there any reason given?
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1. Vial of blood taken by Wade. Miss Liberty having been a long-lived super and daughter of Statesman is obviously an Incarnate, or, at least, an Incarnate-potential. Blood of the Incarnate... where have I heard that before? Although, it's surprising Wade took blood, since he usually deals with samples of hair.
2. Setting up Manticore to allow Miss Liberty to die will isolate Statesman and fracture the Freedom Phalanx.
At least we know this isn't an Arachnos plot since Miss Liberty is the leader of Freedom Corps of which Longbow is military arm (headed by Ms. Liberty). That alone would have been enough for Arachnos to want here gone. But Freedom Corps wasn't mentioned.
As to who offed her: Wade gives you the chance to do it. If you decline, he does it.
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So basically the entire point of her death was solely to piss people off so that whoever is pulling the strings can make their next move? All while the Heroes are left scratching their heads and unable to fight back.
Yeah, suddenly I have no problems with the way Longbow is written any more. I saw a few posts in this thread alone about how bad Ms. Liberty and Longbow are. Now I have zero issues with it. |
The difference is that while Longbow and Ms Liberty are supposed to live up to some kind of heroic ideal (even if when don't do so in practice, it's still written like they do), villains don't (necessarily) live up to any ideals.
Hurting someone for the sole purpose of hurting your real enemy, or make them come at you stupid, is a perfectly villainous thing to do. As a story, I don't have a problem with that. Of course, the execution can leave something to be desired (I haven't played through it myself, but I'm guessing it does).
Thought for the day:
"Hope is the first step on the road to disappointment."
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I have zero issue with Longbow and Ms Liberty being extremist nutcases. What I do have issue with is when they are presented as such, while the story makes it clear that they aren't. That makes them unintended villains, and that's kinda sad.
The difference is that while Longbow and Ms Liberty are supposed to live up to some kind of heroic ideal (even if when don't do so in practice, it's still written like they do), villains don't (necessarily) live up to any ideals. Hurting someone for the sole purpose of hurting your real enemy, or make them come at you stupid, is a perfectly villainous thing to do. As a story, I don't have a problem with that. Of course, the execution can leave something to be desired (I haven't played through it myself, but I'm guessing it does). |
For me, it's indeed the execution. The plot itself is a fine one. But unless they intend to end this SSA with a suitably epic Heroic Sacrifice, so far I'm not impressed with the story.
"The best thing about being a robot duplicate of Lord Nemesis is, well... Everything."
The Shining Stars and whatever Dr. Graves' cadre of idiots is called are in a lot of new content. It was disappointing, but not surprising to see this. Every time a new writer sits down to write, he or she makes new recurring characters that show up everywhere. Take, for instance, Faultline and Fusionette. They showed up in I8's Faultline remake, then they were almost everywhere in I10's Rikti War Zone revamp. Then Praetoria showed up, and for a while everything we got had to involve the Praetorians in some way or another.
Once upon a time, players complained that none of our contacts were memorable and none of the named bosses were meaningful as they didn't show up again after being defeated. This was somewhat rectified as far back as the I1 arcs where Crimson and Indigo have lots of personality, Melvin keeps showing up, Moment keeps showing up, Nemesis makes several appearances, C'Khelkah turns up a few times and so forth. However, it wasn't until Faultline that we had characters who showed up across a huge level range and "levelled up" with players, as it were. For instance, when Fusionette first shows up, she has a regular tights costume, but when she shows up again in the War Zone, she's sporting Vanguard gear. Personally, I'm not a big fan of this, for the simple fact that if you don't like the characters to begin with - and I don't like any of the Shining Stars beyond Twinshot - it starts to wear on you. It also makes the world feel much, much smaller. Once upon a time, if a hero needed to become involved in a story, that was a hero of the city with his own story and past, but it was a different hero every time. That's to be expected in a City of Heroes. With this many, running into the same one twice should be rare. Even on bank heist, you still had a pool of heroes who could turn up to stop you, it's not always the same one every time. Now, though, we seem to keep running into the same heroes over and over and over again. Why? What's so important about Twinshot and her wacky miniboss squad that means they have to be in EVERY mission where a non-signature hero is required? You'd think in a city this big with this many heroes, you'd occasionally run into someone you haven't met before. But no, it's always Twinshot and the Shining Stars, because they're the current fad. I want to point out that this really isn't a big complaint of mine. Recurring characters are not a bad thing. I was happy to see Duke Mordrogar show up as a CoT possessed mage, I'm always happy to see General Aarons show up in missions that concern matters of national security and I appreciate having Akharist turn up again and again to address matters of magic. If the cameo is rare, or it makes sense, it's always pleasant. If it's just for the sake of ramming familiar faces down our throats, though, I'd like to pass. This city should have more heroes in it than just those five. |
34 heroes,
20 villains, Victory, Justice, Infinity, Virtue, Triumph, Exalted -- some more active than others
As to whether this is a case of Women In Refrigerators, the answer is unequivocally "Technically, Yes" because the definition is so broad.
That's unimportant.
Tropes are not bad, and like most tropes, WIR can be used effectively to make a good story.
What is important is that it was not so used in this case, based on my playthrough of, and emotional reaction to, the villain half.
I am not saying the writing was bad overall. I liked the overall pacing, the reveal of who '???' was, the delivery of the dialogue and many other things.
That said:
- The villain-side story did not adequately establish that Miss Liberty is Statesman's daughter and Ms. Liberty's mother. Even I was momentarily confused. A scene between the two of them, with Miss Liberty admonishing her to be careful or the like would have added to the story emotionally and informationally.
- The villain-side story did not give us a cut scene or other adequate setup as to why she was sent to perform the negotiations (other than that she was the target). She almost could have been ye genericke ambassador. She really needed a scene establishing her credentials with insightful dialogue, something to establist that she was competent, noble, and important in her own right.
- She spent the whole time being kidnapped and cowering. As she was a former superheroine in her own right, I would have expected to fight her (even if she were horribly underleveled to reflect her loss of the Liberty Belt) and defeat her to deliver her to Malaise and Wade. As an alternative, a scripted event where she escapes by some clever ruse and I have to chase her down would have been nice.
- She just gets shot and dies. No defiant last quip. No empty threat about angering Statesman, or hollow expression of faith that he would save her at the last minute. No special sad music. This is not how a former hero should go out. Not even in a villain-centric story.
I think the above objections are more important than the fact that a female character dying in a comic-book-like setting will unavoidably be an example of Women In Refrigerators: I want to care more about Who Dies.
To the writers of Who Will Die:
In the next four months, we have Statesman, Manticore, Citadel and Sister Psyche to cast the spotlight on.
Please take the time to make us care about these characters as more than pictures on the loading screens, TF givers, opponents, and pets.
As a story-oriented player, I want stuff. Story stuff. Emotional stuff. Relationship stuff. Humanizing stuff. I want to feel why these guys are the premier heroes of the world, what they inspire, how they make it day to day.
The neat new enemies and mechanics are nice, and I like them. Please also include things like:
Statesman: Where does our Marcus Cole live/eat/shop? Is he anachronistic and preferring a 'simpler age', or is he thoroughly modernized, with a Twitter account and blog? Does he show any signs of Emperor Cole's power lust, or is he baffled as to the evils of his alternate selves? What about his old con-man/heist-meister days...does he have nostalgia or is he ashamed of them? What does the word "Statesman" mean to him; does he feel he represents the USA these days, the hero community, or something else? As the premier hero of the world, does he have disdain for unproven young heroes, or a distant but fatherly regard for them? If he dies, what will we lose?
Sister Psyche: How crazy is she; does she isolate herself to escape the voices in her head, meditate/medicate, or just endure? Why "Sister" Psyche; is she Catholic? (Yes, go there) How is she adapting to married life; is she a domestic type or does she have some kind of hobbies or career outside of herodom? How does she feel about Aurora Borealis and Calvin Scott, particularly in the current circumstance with Praetoria? Is she a feminist? Why does she use her powers for heroic ends, especially contrasted with her Praetorian counterpart? If she dies, what will we lose?
Manticore: Manticore we know some things about, like his lifestyle, his contentious relationship with Statesman, his marriage, his public identity, and his underhanded dealings with the government. He is clearly both the shadiest and most proactive Phalanxer; possibly a Vigilante. However, here is an opportunity to explore his Heroic side, or to explore the fact that he is a pure Vigilante only a final Tip away from Villainhood.
Citadel: The least known Phalanxer. There is tons to reveal here, from the extent of his programming and the nature of his sentience, to his relationship with other digital intelligences. How does he feel about the Internet? What does he beleive about the nature of the soul? How does he feel about media portrayals of beings like himself? Does he dream of electric sheep? How was he accepted as a Phalanxer? Does he have hobbies, preferences, aspirations? If he dies, what do we lose?
Much of the above info may be on the forum somewhere or in a novel somewhere: this is an opportunity to get it into the game.
After all, this is our last chance to interact (outside of Ouroboros) with one of these people.
...and don't feel shy about going back to fill in the blanks with Synapse and Numina as well. I'd love to get Numina's perspective of death and the afterlife, as well as Synapse's take on why Neuron is a genius and he ...isn't.
Story Arcs I created:
Every Rose: (#17702) Villainous vs Legacy Chain. Forget Arachnos, join the CoT!
Cosplay Madness!: (#3643) Neutral vs Custom Foes. Heroes at a pop culture convention!
Kiss Hello Goodbye: (#156389) Heroic vs Custom Foes. Film Noir/Hardboiled detective adventure!
The point is that the trick only works because of the medium, which makes it cheap.
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If I was reading a novel, I would not call foul on being surprised by a reveal because it's a literary medium that took advantage of the fact that for instance I could not actually hear a scene. When Lovecraft falls back on saying something is indescribable or whatever, I roll with it.
Same kinda deal.
Story Arcs I created:
Every Rose: (#17702) Villainous vs Legacy Chain. Forget Arachnos, join the CoT!
Cosplay Madness!: (#3643) Neutral vs Custom Foes. Heroes at a pop culture convention!
Kiss Hello Goodbye: (#156389) Heroic vs Custom Foes. Film Noir/Hardboiled detective adventure!
Except that Longbow is only "extremist" in 2 morality missions blueside. Ms. Liberty/The Vindicators/Longbow are supposed to be the result of a desire to be more "proactive" against Villains, rather than just waiting for a plot to go down and THEN react to it.
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Well there was that time when Longbow decided Vanguard couldn't be trusted and tried to stage a hostile take over the frontline of the Rikti War, during the middle of said war.
Plus the Longbow presence in the Rogue Isles kind of violates tons of international laws.
Oh and their operating procedure for Praetoria is shoot first and don't ask questions.
Not exactly a heroic rap sheet.
The moment Jean said "You are next." is the moment I knew I wouldn't be playing any of the other SSAs, because what you describe is probably what's going to happen. I simply have no interest in seeing that. I've had enough of characters being tortured and dehumanised to pander to the public's bloodlust.
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Except that Longbow is only "extremist" in 2 morality missions blueside. Ms. Liberty/The Vindicators/Longbow are supposed to be the result of a desire to be more "proactive" against Villains, rather than just waiting for a plot to go down and THEN react to it.
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I'd say at least a couple of these are justifiable. However, that doesn't stop Longbow from being the very incarnation of self-righteous vigilantism.
I disagree. In this instance, I'm filing it under 'clever use of the medium'.
If I was reading a novel, I would not call foul on being surprised by a reveal because it's a literary medium that took advantage of the fact that for instance I could not actually hear a scene. When Lovecraft falls back on saying something is indescribable or whatever, I roll with it. Same kinda deal. |
- She spent the whole time being kidnapped and cowering. As she was a former superheroine in her own right, I would have expected to fight her (even if she were horribly underleveled to reflect her loss of the Liberty Belt) and defeat her to deliver her to Malaise and Wade. As an alternative, a scripted event where she escapes by some clever ruse and I have to chase her down would have been nice.
- She just gets shot and dies. No defiant last quip. No empty threat about angering Statesman, or hollow expression of faith that he would save her at the last minute. No special sad music. This is not how a former hero should go out. Not even in a villain-centric story. |
But I do agree that Alexis should have been more heroic with a more fitting end than a bullet. We do have to remember that she was helpless at the end so it wasn't like she could get any last quips off - she got out her threats and hollow expressions during the kidnapping and that could have been handled better.
Overall though, I liked the story, both hero and villain with a slight edge to the villain story which was more satisfying because you know more and don't have to fight those annoying arachnoids.
If I was reading a novel, I would not call foul on being surprised by a reveal because it's a literary medium that took advantage of the fact that for instance I could not actually hear a scene. When Lovecraft falls back on saying something is indescribable or whatever, I roll with it.
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Mysteries are far more entertaining when they "play fair", as it were. When things are set up so that every character knows a fact, but the reader/viewer/player doesn't, that's not especially fun, because the writer is essentially "cheating" to conceal information. It's like playing football, only you just think you're playing football, but you're actually playing a variant where there are two balls in each play, but only the opposing team knows that.
- She spent the whole time being kidnapped and cowering. As she was a former superheroine in her own right, I would have expected to fight her (even if she were horribly underleveled to reflect her loss of the Liberty Belt) and defeat her to deliver her to Malaise and Wade. As an alternative, a scripted event where she escapes by some clever ruse and I have to chase her down would have been nice.
- She just gets shot and dies. No defiant last quip. No empty threat about angering Statesman, or hollow expression of faith that he would save her at the last minute. No special sad music. This is not how a former hero should go out. Not even in a villain-centric story. |
As for her just getting shot and killed...well, I suppose this reflects the seriousness of this arc. This isn't a comic book arc where people will make these last words or the villains will even entertain them. In fact, if you want to think about it, this drives home the fact that someone is going to die.
Of course, I would've preferred if the Heroes had a CHANCE to save her and she gets shot and killed. The fact that (for blue-side anyway) she dies off-camera with no explanation whatsoever (the explaination is again, red-side only) just makes me feel angry, because again, blue-side is two or more steps behind no matter WHAT they do. I know I'm starting to sound like a broken record, but it's hard not to stress this. It's fine to have the Heroes lose, but this makes us (blue-siders) look sloppy. It would've been a LOT better if we'd shown up and she got shot in a cutscene. Or we beat on Jean to free her, and THEN she gets shot. But for her to die seemingly hours or more before a Hero arrives?
It really makes me feel like "What's the point of even attempting these arcs? I don't feel Heroic at all? I'm not actually DOING anything that seems either helpful or useful, I'm just dancing to the tune of the invisible enemy orchestrating this whole thing." It's one thing to make this a struggle the Heroes will lose, it's another thing entirely to make the heroes feel utterly and completely pointless.
If the arc is supposed to be a desperate struggle or a string of seemingly random events that will eventually tie together, then it's not coming together FAST enough. We're almost over halfway and I think both sides STILL have no idea what's going on.
It really makes me feel like "What's the point of even attempting these arcs? I don't feel Heroic at all? I'm not actually DOING anything that seems either helpful or useful, I'm just dancing to the tune of the invisible enemy orchestrating this whole thing." It's one thing to make this a struggle the Heroes will lose, it's another thing entirely to make the heroes feel utterly and completely pointless.
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I think part of the problem is simply the way these arcs are being released, for what it's worth. Even with the assured death of a major character in the end, I'm pretty confident we're going to see justice done, and the badguys thoroughly thwarted. It's just that (warning: TVTropes link approaching!) You Can't Thwart Stage One. This happens in other arcs as well, but we're able to immediately go on to the next part of the story. Here, we won't be getting the payoff until March.
- She spent the whole time being kidnapped and cowering. As she was a former superheroine in her own right, I would have expected to fight her (even if she were horribly underleveled to reflect her loss of the Liberty Belt) and defeat her to deliver her to Malaise and Wade. As an alternative, a scripted event where she escapes by some clever ruse and I have to chase her down would have been nice.
- She just gets shot and dies. No defiant last quip. No empty threat about angering Statesman, or hollow expression of faith that he would save her at the last minute. No special sad music. This is not how a former hero should go out. Not even in a villain-centric story. |
Statesman: Where does our Marcus Cole live/eat/shop? Is he anachronistic and preferring a 'simpler age', or is he thoroughly modernized, with a Twitter account and blog? Does he show any signs of Emperor Cole's power lust, or is he baffled as to the evils of his alternate selves? What about his old con-man/heist-meister days...does he have nostalgia or is he ashamed of them? What does the word "Statesman" mean to him; does he feel he represents the USA these days, the hero community, or something else? As the premier hero of the world, does he have disdain for unproven young heroes, or a distant but fatherly regard for them? If he dies, what will we lose?
Sister Psyche: How crazy is she; does she isolate herself to escape the voices in her head, meditate/medicate, or just endure? Why "Sister" Psyche; is she Catholic? (Yes, go there) How is she adapting to married life; is she a domestic type or does she have some kind of hobbies or career outside of herodom? How does she feel about Aurora Borealis and Calvin Scott, particularly in the current circumstance with Praetoria? Is she a feminist? Why does she use her powers for heroic ends, especially contrasted with her Praetorian counterpart? If she dies, what will we lose? Manticore: Manticore we know some things about, like his lifestyle, his contentious relationship with Statesman, his marriage, his public identity, and his underhanded dealings with the government. He is clearly both the shadiest and most proactive Phalanxer; possibly a Vigilante. However, here is an opportunity to explore his Heroic side, or to explore the fact that he is a pure Vigilante only a final Tip away from Villainhood. Citadel: The least known Phalanxer. There is tons to reveal here, from the extent of his programming and the nature of his sentience, to his relationship with other digital intelligences. How does he feel about the Internet? What does he beleive about the nature of the soul? How does he feel about media portrayals of beings like himself? Does he dream of electric sheep? How was he accepted as a Phalanxer? Does he have hobbies, preferences, aspirations? If he dies, what do we lose? |
I'm supposed to care about these people, but I'm supposed to care because the narrative tells me I'm supposed to, and because their faces show up on the loading screens and up in the forum background pic. However, they've received no development to speak of, and so when they start dying, it feels cheap and pointless. It's as if the studio is desperately trying to get a rise out of us, so they're killing people to sock us. But like John McLane letting Hans shoot Ellis, we're put in a position to watch a character we don't know or care about get killed. It's not emotional enough to be "deep," but it's still a good person getting killed, so it's just emotional enough to be annoying.
Far as I'm concerned, "Who will die?" is a waste of canon characters. Killing them off for a publicity stunt just makes me feel unclean.
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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If I was reading a novel, I would not call foul on being surprised by a reveal because it's a literary medium that took advantage of the fact that for instance I could not actually hear a scene. |
Current Blog Post: "Why I am an Atheist..."
"And I say now these kittens, they do not get trained/As we did in the days when Victoria reigned!" -- T. S. Eliot, "Gus, the Theatre Cat"
I actually disagree with these points specifically. She WAS once a heroine. Not anymore. We don't have any idea how long she's been out of the hero-ing business, but long enough that she's gone back to being an otherwise ordinary civilian. There's reason enough there for her to be nervous in these situations.
As for her just getting shot and killed...well, I suppose this reflects the seriousness of this arc. This isn't a comic book arc where people will make these last words or the villains will even entertain them. In fact, if you want to think about it, this drives home the fact that someone is going to die. |
I haven't gotten a shot at playing it blueside yet; we'll see how that changes my perspective. But my instinct is that it is better to have no chance of saving her, than a 'fake chance' ...but then that was the whole point of Malaise's ruse.
Story Arcs I created:
Every Rose: (#17702) Villainous vs Legacy Chain. Forget Arachnos, join the CoT!
Cosplay Madness!: (#3643) Neutral vs Custom Foes. Heroes at a pop culture convention!
Kiss Hello Goodbye: (#156389) Heroic vs Custom Foes. Film Noir/Hardboiled detective adventure!
I actually disagree with these points specifically. She WAS once a heroine. Not anymore. We don't have any idea how long she's been out of the hero-ing business, but long enough that she's gone back to being an otherwise ordinary civilian. There's reason enough there for her to be nervous in these situations.
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Reminds me of a Batman/Superman comic where Supes is sick and weak. They are getting ready to descend into the big-bad's lair when Batman tells Clark that he can probably handle it without him. Superman asks "Should I only be brave when I'm completely invulnerable?" or something similar. Batman just nods and the two go down into the lair.
I'll finish them only because I want to see it through to the end. But the writing NEEDS to change. Villainous plots CAN succeed without demanding Heroes lose almost all higher brain functions and common sense, devs.
Also, anyone who did it Redside. Do we know WHY they wanted Alexis dead? Was there any reason given? |
1) Wade needs her blood because it's similar to Statesman's.
I assume he just needs the blood of an Incarnate or something similar, and Liberty and Statesman were too hard for Wade to trap, since States is Big Time and Liberty is currently empowered by the Liberty Belt...or, perhaps it would be believable that Blitz could capture Alexis. Wade may have other methods of capturing Liberty or Statesman, though the latter may not be as feasible since States is Big Time.
I'm pretty sure he's going to combine Alexis' blood with the Power Intensifier he stole from the Midnight Squad; or rather, Wade's next pawn is going to get a transfusion of her blood and they're going to use the Intensifier...you know, right before they explode or something as dictated by the dropping of other shoes and such.
2) Wade has been watching a lot of Criminal Minds recently and believes that the death of a close relative will make Statesman emo out again like when his wife Monica died. To be accurate, though, States only did that because Recluse purposely sent flowers to Monica to mess with his head a bit, I can't remember how exactly that worked.
It's entirely possible that States won't fall for the same trick twice, even through his grief.
3) Wade wants to estrange Manticore from the rest of the Phalanx because of his secrecy involving, and the magnitude of his failure to protect as a result of said secrecy, someone so close to the Phalanx. I think people have already picked up on this, though.
Points 2 and Points 3 are really to create a sufficiently distracted and divided Phalanx to enable Point 1.
61866 - A Series of Unfortunate Kidnappings - More than a coincidence?
2260 - The Burning of Hearts - A green-eyed monster holds the match.
379248 - The Spider Without Fangs - NEW - Some lessons learned (more or less.)
As a former villain, as someone who hated Longbow passionately even before the Second Rikti War, I somehow expected the chance to kill, or stand by and watch somebody else kill, the CEO of Longbow to be more satisfying. Maybe it's because I knew that a Rulu-shin cultist was planning on benefiting from it; more likely it's because I was hoping that her death would have something to do with the fact that she runs an above-the-law mercenary company that uses flamethrowers to make arrests.
I realize that we've probably never seen Malaise without his mask, at least not that I can remember, but the realization that "Penn Jilette" from the earlier cut-scenes was Malaise seemed kind of abrupt.
As someone who used to spend a lot of time playing with Mission Architect, I want that Arachnos office map tileset expanded to include a full set of office maps, please! (Although it's a little too dark to be plausible, if you ask me, but I'm not the art director. Given my druthers, I'd want a whole tileset that looks like the Arachnos office in Recluse's Victory.)
I know you have the tech to branch dialog based off of souvenirs and badges. Manticore should have remembered that he and I had fought several times before, even if only from my souvenirs for completing Westin Phipps' arcs before going vigilante. And Darrin Wade should have made some kind of remark about my having worked for him before, off of my Thief of Midnight badge.
Didn't whats her face die like a long long time ago?
Given that with his background, Malaise's identity should be well-known to pretty much everyone, it's fairly cheap, to my mind. If they used someone whose name and face weren't public knowledge (which, admittedly is...pretty much no one major that I can recall), that would be one thing, but this is entirely another.
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Our characters might have recognized him during the negotiation fight, or might not since he was out of costume. Manticore certainly did but he wasn't sure which side he was on until it was too late.
Winner of Players' Choice Best Villainous Arc 2010: Fear and Loathing on Striga; ID #350522
The topic of heroic villains is better left for another day.
Thought for the day:
"Hope is the first step on the road to disappointment."
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