Getting tired of Incarnates
By
Aura_Familia,
Posted on: 2011-11-06 15:41 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
I know the feeling. I log in to play, not watch others play.
The more I team, the more I solo.
I don't like how incarnate powers reduce the diversity of what players do, but I do like how incarnate powers increase the pace of a team so drastically. It sucks to build up, aim, reach for your mininuke and then see someone just judgement the spawn into rubble. What happens next though, for me, is that the next time we're coming up to a spawn and I think someone might vaporize it I'll just keep running to the spawn after that, blast that one instead, and suddenly we're making really good time. Are your teammates trivializing the mission with their destiny powers? Great, then just start pulling larger and larger groups of enemies until the aggro is so diffuse that challenge is restored. I'm not trying to imply that I'm attempting to punish my team for displeasing me, but rather to really squeeze some efficiency out of what could be a boring situation if you were just slowly steamrolling a mission.
If the team is so heavily incarnated, IOed and skilled that even if each of you goes in a different direction you'll still be steamrolling the mission, then it becomes time to up the combat level.
When I am on a character that is level 40 or above (any character actually, not just high levels) and am actually feeling like attempting to form a team, I will actively try to recruit non incarnates (even teens and 20-somethings. It's all good).
And I will usually announce the formation of the team with something like "Level 40 (hero tips/radio missions/arc missions/whatever) team has room for 7. All ATs and level ranges welcome."
I will do that in Broadcast and then the various global teaming channels. But ultimately, I either end up soloing or logging off and going off to play an actual single player game on one of my consoles, when there are no takers whatsoever and it seems all the teams are newbie sewer runs or Incarnate Trials, or yet another Speed ITF.
Heh. I do have one highly-incarnate character, an elec/elec/elec blaster. I recall one time when I went the "wrong way" in a cave mission (hero tip, I think), and reached one of those large end rooms. Difficulty wasn't too high, so I ate a bunch of inspirations, "herded" the mobs together, called down Judgement upon them 
, and my pets (polar lights, Voltaic Sentinel) and myself cleaned up the rest. Then I looked and saw that my seven teammates were STILL cleaning out their end room.
It was ... super. 
Just stop playing in +0/x1, problem solved. With +4/x8 the judgement powers aren't enough to one shot everything and most "normal" factions will put up some decent challenge for the average team.
Dark armor lover.
The Claws/DA Scrapper guide.
I do dislike how incarnate powers have trivialised end game content. I used to enjoy how challenging and dangerous things such as the ITF, LRSF, STF or even LGTF were a year or two ago. Now they're just a cakewalk. 
I have a thought, and it is only a thought, that at some point, when the incarnate content is developed enough, the Devs will 'pull up the ladder' on incarnate powers and make them only usable during incarnate trials and content.
@Dante EU - Union Roleplayer and Altisis Victim
The Militia: Union RP Supergroup - www.themilitia.org.uk
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Personally, I doubt that. I believe that a majority of people who have already earned those powers would consider that a major dickmove by the Devs, somewhat akin to turning off IO set bonuses in a majority of content.|
Originally Posted by Dante
I have a thought, and it is only a thought, that at some point, when the incarnate content is developed enough, the Devs will 'pull up the ladder' on incarnate powers and make them only usable during incarnate trials and content.
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That said, I will be surprised if many, if any future Incarnate powers (as in ones that go in slots not yet made available) operate outside of incarnate content.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
a requested feature that i remember between i19 and i20 was to give an option akin to ouro flashback/tf challenge settings that disabled incarnate powers since we do have one which is disable temp powers or only primary/secondary powers so it shouldnt be too hard to add a disable incarnate powers option
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I would welcome that. I do miss the challenge of the old level 50 content. |
Originally Posted by Necrotech_Master
a requested feature that i remember between i19 and i20 was to give an option akin to ouro flashback/tf challenge settings that disabled incarnate powers since we do have one which is disable temp powers or only primary/secondary powers so it shouldnt be too hard to add a disable incarnate powers option
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And as for upping the difficulty, yes, you can do that but you'd be amazed how fast people go off wanting to run a TF when it's not a cakewalk at +0/x8.
If upping the difficulty gave a significant shift in rewards or even (perish the thought) dropped threads instead of shards, there might be some interest at running at that difficulty. As it is, the people I have encountered only want to race through it for the merits or kerbstomp as many white conning minions as possible for shard drops.
@Dante EU - Union Roleplayer and Altisis Victim
The Militia: Union RP Supergroup - www.themilitia.org.uk
I know the feeling I have a character at 43 been there a while . ITF's are sparse as far as I can see. But BAF's and Lambdas are booming because you just need to keep getting threads to keep up with the new stuff.
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Know what the first part of assume is?|
Originally Posted by Celidya
Just stop playing in +0/x1, problem solved.
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Don't be one of those by doing that.
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Originally Posted by Willowpaw
When I am on a character that is level 40 or above (any character actually, not just high levels) and am actually feeling like attempting to form a team, I will actively try to recruit non incarnates (even teens and 20-somethings. It's all good).
And I will usually announce the formation of the team with something like "Level 40 (hero tips/radio missions/arc missions/whatever) team has room for 7. All ATs and level ranges welcome." I will do that in Broadcast and then the various global teaming channels. But ultimately, I either end up soloing or logging off and going off to play an actual single player game on one of my consoles, when there are no takers whatsoever and it seems all the teams are newbie sewer runs or Incarnate Trials, or yet another Speed ITF. |
I tend to want to find a balance, though. I mean, I'm complaining about not feeling like I'm contributing to a team - I want to bring people along who aren't going to be *so* low they don't feel like they're doing anything, either (or, flip side, just want to sit back and be PL'd.) Unfortunately, some of the times I play can make it rather difficult. And some of what I put in the OP has, frankly, started making me not log on as much.
Wanted: Origin centric story arcs.
If you've only played an AT once (one set combo) and "hate" it - don't give up. Roll a different combo. It may just be those sets not clicking for you.
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I'd kind of like to see that as part of what I mentioned in the OP. |
Originally Posted by Dante
I would welcome that. I do miss the challenge of the old level 50 content.
And as for upping the difficulty, yes, you can do that but you'd be amazed how fast people go off wanting to run a TF when it's not a cakewalk at +0/x8. If upping the difficulty gave a significant shift in rewards or even (perish the thought) dropped threads instead of shards, there might be some interest at running at that difficulty. As it is, the people I have encountered only want to race through it for the merits or kerbstomp as many white conning minions as possible for shard drops. |
Run regular content? Incarnate powers are toned down. Still strong, yes, still worth the effort, yes, but toned down. Highest rewards are shards and merits.
If, say, half (or more) of the team have Incarnate slots unlocked, the "Incarnate level" option becomes available. Incarnate powers run at full blast, but the enemies are more (not hideously more, but more) resistant, or have a "level shift" of their own of a level, or their buffs/debuffs are stronger, and they can get up to threads dropping (or whatever's felt to be appropriate.)
Incarnate content, of course (Apex/Tin Mage and trials) of course are as they are now.
Wanted: Origin centric story arcs.
If you've only played an AT once (one set combo) and "hate" it - don't give up. Roll a different combo. It may just be those sets not clicking for you.
I certainly sympathize.
The only real advice I have is to look towards the ~40 range TFs.
I dislike running them myself because I want to go LOLJudgement and LOLDestiny, but I do understand your struggle.
Let's Dance!
I'm of the opinion that incarnate powers are why we're getting so many under-40 capped things. The SSAs so far, the halloween trial, sewer trial, First Ward...
Weight training: Because you'll never hear someone lament "If only I were weaker, I could have saved them."
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Because people have lives.|
Originally Posted by Dante
I would welcome that. I do miss the challenge of the old level 50 content.
And as for upping the difficulty, yes, you can do that but you'd be amazed how fast people go off wanting to run a TF when it's not a cakewalk at +0/x8. If upping the difficulty gave a significant shift in rewards or even (perish the thought) dropped threads instead of shards, there might be some interest at running at that difficulty. As it is, the people I have encountered only want to race through it for the merits or kerbstomp as many white conning minions as possible for shard drops. |
If someone has banked an hour or two to do a tf ahead of making dinner, or before starting more chores, they aren't going to join something that will take 3-4 hours. So yeah they are going to go for the cakewalk tf.
I swear some folks think people have infinite time to play the game.
I see it coming up in discussions about the iTrials also, when folks don't consider FORM time as part of the reason some trials aren't done.
It's getting irritating.
Blazara Aura LVL 50 Fire/Psi Dom (with 125% recharge)
Flameboxer Aura LVL 50 SS/Fire Brute
Ice 'Em Aura LVL 50 Ice Tank
Darq Widow Fortune LVL 50 Fortunata (200% rech/Night Widow 192.5% rech)--thanks issue 19!
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You still run into the issue for half the team NOT WANTING to do Incarnate level content. I think people need to start forming their tfs and teams by specifically stating what they want or don't want.|
Originally Posted by Stormbird
I'd kind of like to see that as part of what I mentioned in the OP.
Run regular content? Incarnate powers are toned down. Still strong, yes, still worth the effort, yes, but toned down. Highest rewards are shards and merits. If, say, half (or more) of the team have Incarnate slots unlocked, the "Incarnate level" option becomes available. Incarnate powers run at full blast, but the enemies are more (not hideously more, but more) resistant, or have a "level shift" of their own of a level, or their buffs/debuffs are stronger, and they can get up to threads dropping (or whatever's felt to be appropriate.) Incarnate content, of course (Apex/Tin Mage and trials) of course are as they are now. |
Don't want to make that ITF a cakewalk, then actively ADVERTISE that said tf will be without incarnate powers.
Ofcourse that involves folks forming their own tfs/teams. And folks who are already 50 wanting to do that.
Blazara Aura LVL 50 Fire/Psi Dom (with 125% recharge)
Flameboxer Aura LVL 50 SS/Fire Brute
Ice 'Em Aura LVL 50 Ice Tank
Darq Widow Fortune LVL 50 Fortunata (200% rech/Night Widow 192.5% rech)--thanks issue 19!
At this point it might be too hard to make content that will challenge a team of level 50 incarnates that will not be too difficult for regular 50s / high 40s.
If I was a dev, given that I shouldn't be taking away powers I'd already given, I'd be focusing on making content/TFs that are low level enough than said powers would not be available.
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I feel quite the opposite. I also don't agree that Celidya is assuming either. If you play on +0 things will die very quickly to one judgement but as you raise the difficulty enemies will start living through it. If you have multiple people using judgement then it won't matter if it's +0 or +4 but they do have a decent cooldown period, granted it's slightly faster if they went spiritual, and thus can't be spammed constantly. I really enjoy that judgement can speed up mish/tf times but not everyone has them.|
Originally Posted by Stormbird
Yeah, I am. Not the trials, though those have gotten dull. Not the "Trial vs Solo" content or the rather boring Tyrant and the Well storyline.
What I mean is the seeming lack of being able to play once I hit the high 40s unless I solo. Yes, I can team, and try to. I may even be able to use a power once in a while. But most of the time it feels like "OK, judgement. Now you use judgement. Now judgement #3. Oh, another judgement. Hey, the first one's recharged. Yo, judgement. OK, judgement. LOLJudgement." No "Hey, this can be tricky if you get that other group up top" - nope, just Judgement, Judgement, Judgement. Meanwhile I'm trying to self-buff, or use them to buff the team, or, oh, I don't know, USE one of my powers before everything's dead. It's rare for me to have a non-Incarnate team (or a team with just one, say.) And it's not just judgement. Why bring a buffer along when someone can just fire off one of their Destiny powers? And yeah, I can (and used to) ask for people not to - which led on rare occasion to someone not, but usually someone dropping team or making snide remarks. Well, y'know, I'm sorry but I actually do want to use *my* character's powers on my own arcs, not sit back and watch as other people nuke spawns one after the other. If that's all I wanted, I'd find a PL farm and sit at the door. Or, for another example, I do want to actually feel like I'm actually contributing more than another body on an ITF. We know the devs can disable stuff in non-Incarnate arcs. Why weren't these brought down to a somewhat lower-but-still-powerful level outside of Incarnate trials/arcs? We'd still be "more powerful," but to a more reasonable level in non-Incarnate content. Really, these are just making the high-end game less fun for me. I've started parking characters in the 40s, or just soloing and ignoreing strike/task forces. And that's frustrating. I kind of hope, with people going premium, that the situation gets better, but right now it's just really, really annoying. /venting off. |
As far as destiny goes, sure those powers are perma but they aren't OP'd, not by a long shot. Even with destiny buffs it doesn't decrease the need for buffers because that's how the powers were designed. Sure they start off strong but they quickly deteriorate and near the end of the buff they're really weak. They only time that they can get crazy is when you have a cordinated group of people who use them at specific times otherwise people just fire them off when they see it come up. When I play my elec/cold controller on the itrials I still use my shields since that will add to everyones survivability and they stack with whatever other buffs that are flying around.
I wouldn't mind seeing a setting that disabled incarnate powers in tf's since that'd be a nice extra challenge setting.
Elec/Cold Troller AV/Pylon/GM/TF/SF Soloing Antics
everytime...he gets me everytime.... DAMN U BOOMIE
-- _Ilr_
Take the Magic: The Gathering 'What Color Are You?' Quiz.
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Originally Posted by Boomie
As far as destiny goes, sure those powers are perma but they aren't OP'd, not by a long shot. Even with destiny buffs it doesn't decrease the need for buffers because that's how the powers were designed.
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Destiny powers are not OP? So..getting a perma mez protection on a corr, that has NO other way to access mez protection (to more than hold/immob/conf) is not over powered? If it was 'normal' powered, why wouldn't corrs have the option for that?
Or how about giving any toon basically infinite recovery, or a stack or regen?
In the trails, Destiny powers are not OP..most leagues need them to do well. In normal content? They are very very powerful. Maybe not quite OP, but hardly as un-gamechanging as you make out.
I was talking about a similar thing with a friend..I know ONE person who picked a Destiny power to help the team...one person! Everyone else, me included, picks the one best suited to that toon. Which, since Destiny is an aoe team buff...is just wrong.
Can totally see the argument against judgements..it isnt fun popping build up, going in to AS (or whatever) a boss, and see 2 judgements just melt it. Giving them a 2 min recharge, shorter than some other Nuke powers, was just an idiotic idea.
The only thing that bugs me about Incarnate abilities is how they step on the toes of AT roles. I personally wish they had made different trees for each AT.
Goodbye may seem forever
Farewell is like the end
But in my heart's the memory
And there you'll always be
-- The Fox and the Hound
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Yeah the 50 level non icontent is kinda meh now. We used to have to strategic for the STF and LRSF. Now we just charge in and whoop some signature characters. You can up the diff but that doesn't work so well when the team isn't all incarnate.|
Originally Posted by Dante
I do dislike how incarnate powers have trivialised end game content. I used to enjoy how challenging and dangerous things such as the ITF, LRSF, STF or even LGTF were a year or two ago. Now they're just a cakewalk.
I have a thought, and it is only a thought, that at some point, when the incarnate content is developed enough, the Devs will 'pull up the ladder' on incarnate powers and make them only usable during incarnate trials and content. |
Anyway, I hope the rest of the incarnate powers aren't so powerful. We have enough. I was afraid of this when they introduced the new powers. I think leagues would have been fun if they were not incarnate and just, maybe, lvl 45+ content with improved rewards.
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Well, if you steamroll +4/x8 regardless of team size, teammate skill and enemy faction (which we have to assume you just said, otherwise you're just a quotewarrior/troll butchering Celidya's point with semantics), I think you can consider you've beat the game and move on. Good job.
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Know what the first part of assume is? Don't be one of those by doing that. |
Personally, I'd like to see these new options added for the Lv50 game (outside the incarnate trials).
Incarnate Mode: +4/x8 (Bonus: Incarnate threads drop instead of incarnate shards)
Non-Incarnate Mode: All Incarnate powers (including Alpha slot) turned off.
I'd also make Non-Incarnate Mode be a requirement for the classical Mo badges (no deaths, no temp powers, no incarnate powers).
Of course, Standard Code Rant applies and all that.
Play my MA arcs!
Tracking Down Jack Ketch - ArcID #2701
Cat War! - ArcID #2788
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Originally Posted by Stormbird
Know what the first part of assume is?
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As stated above judgements powers can't kill anything with difficulty raised. Actually i think +3 is enough already to have surviving minions, and at +4 it will barely scratch bosses, while a +4 x8 alpha strike is enough to wipe someone who doesn't have some epic build and is not supposed to dive in first. And it doesn't make much difference compared to having an elec/shield scrapper with a good build or a fire blaster on your team, either way mobs will die and mission will be done before you're done reading the background story.
Anyway peoples have been steamrolling tfs long before incarnate stuff, for whoever wants challenge, there can be some, for whoever doesn't (a large majority of the playerbase) there is none. Whole point is rushing and killing as few mobs as possible since, thanks to the way rewards work, the game rewards you on time rather than on stuff done on the way.
That said, i sure hope they won't disable incarnates, i'm already tired enough of all the boring low level content we're forced into. Now players have been planning their builds with incarnate in mind for months, removing that would force a lot of peoples to respec and do a major step back in their character developpement. I know for sure i would go back to not playing something else than scrappers or brutes, because playing all the time with no mezz protection is just a big "NO" for me, while the incarnate stuff allows to finally enjoy some squishy archetypes.
If you want to play in a way just make friends and team with them for stuff like that. Don't force the whole playerbase playing your way, because, you know, some peoples actually find it boring and not fun at all as well. You already have most of the content where there's no incarnate or full builds.
Dark armor lover.
The Claws/DA Scrapper guide.
Yeah, I am. Not the trials, though those have gotten dull. Not the "Trial vs Solo" content or the rather boring Tyrant and the Well storyline.
What I mean is the seeming lack of being able to play once I hit the high 40s unless I solo. Yes, I can team, and try to. I may even be able to use a power once in a while. But most of the time it feels like "OK, judgement. Now you use judgement. Now judgement #3. Oh, another judgement. Hey, the first one's recharged. Yo, judgement. OK, judgement. LOLJudgement." No "Hey, this can be tricky if you get that other group up top" - nope, just Judgement, Judgement, Judgement.
Meanwhile I'm trying to self-buff, or use them to buff the team, or, oh, I don't know, USE one of my powers before everything's dead. It's rare for me to have a non-Incarnate team (or a team with just one, say.)
And it's not just judgement. Why bring a buffer along when someone can just fire off one of their Destiny powers?
And yeah, I can (and used to) ask for people not to - which led on rare occasion to someone not, but usually someone dropping team or making snide remarks. Well, y'know, I'm sorry but I actually do want to use *my* character's powers on my own arcs, not sit back and watch as other people nuke spawns one after the other. If that's all I wanted, I'd find a PL farm and sit at the door. Or, for another example, I do want to actually feel like I'm actually contributing more than another body on an ITF.
We know the devs can disable stuff in non-Incarnate arcs. Why weren't these brought down to a somewhat lower-but-still-powerful level outside of Incarnate trials/arcs? We'd still be "more powerful," but to a more reasonable level in non-Incarnate content.
Really, these are just making the high-end game less fun for me. I've started parking characters in the 40s, or just soloing and ignoreing strike/task forces. And that's frustrating.
I kind of hope, with people going premium, that the situation gets better, but right now it's just really, really annoying.
/venting off.
Wanted: Origin centric story arcs.
If you've only played an AT once (one set combo) and "hate" it - don't give up. Roll a different combo. It may just be those sets not clicking for you.