Forced teaming makes me sad

Wrong. There is now a forced minimum on the Winter Lord's Realm "Holiday Trial". Last year I entered with a single team on my widow and we just kicked his butt. No-one else was interested as it was early hours of the morning. We won, we kicked butt, we wiped out as many of the Horde as we could before it kicked us out at the end of the timer. Hell I even entered a WL Realm solo just so I could nab as many candy canes as I could and maybe tease Lord Winter.

So there's one less choice/opportunity.

Originally Posted by Dispari I don't know why Dink thinks she's not as sexy as Jay was. In 5 posts she's already upstaged his entire career.

I think this is true. It's more about the mindset or direction of development leaning toward this "play it our way or not at all" in what is otherwise supposedly a very freeform game of choice and opportunity.

Well, it still is. As I said, all the other content is still available and still in solo/small team form. The raid on Lord Winter's Realm is one small part of the whole Winter Event and one that doesn't even offer any particularly impressive reward. It's not locking content like powers or emotes or costumes, it's only a badge being gated behind a larger than average team requirement and being arguably easier to participate in than last year because the event can now be run at any time so long as there is enough people instead of relying on random chance and either having a team preformed or being able to pull together people in the allotted time.

Really, if you miss out on the trial, it's... really just an experience you're missing out on. Now, if there were some specific reward that you could not get any other way then I could see feeling so strongly for it. As it is, it's pretty negligible.

I also have to wonder how many people have actually run it on the Beta and how many are just doign knee jerk reactions. I'd rather see people that have tested it weigh in instead of people that just don't like the idea. It's fine to disagree, but I don't think you can offer constructive criticism on it since you haven't even tried it. You can offer past experience and personal preference, but everything after is supposition. I'd rather give the benefit of the doubt and see what testers are saying, we know Devs will listen to players that have actually tested it.

I'm taking exception of it being gated behind a tool that is inadequate to handle multi team forming in it's present form.

Drop it to 8, allow folks to also be able to use the OLD method of spawning the event, and call it a day.

This idea that it can't be completed with just 8 is completely false.

While it's true people are taking an exception to the system (the LFG tool and all its problems,) they're also taking exception to the higher requirements now put on doing the task.

And as far as the "what are you missing out on?" Well, let me put it this way.

So what if you can't get to your favorite band's farewell concert? What are you missing out on? You've probably heard the music they're going to play already, you drive places anyway, and you can get beer anytime you want, right? So why would you care if you missed it?

Not everyone plays for the shinies. Some of us want to play as much of what makes up the "event" as possible. We want to participate. Having the bar raised higher for no good reason (other than, apparently, forcing people into the LFG queue) makes the entire thing *less fun.*

Well, yeah. It just happens to be that this is the first pre-existing event that's been transmuted to gate behind the LGF queue from something that was otherwise an open zone. As others have mentioned, doing this makes some things about the event more convenient (forming the event "at will" if you have enough people) and other previously possible things impossible (starting the event with a small team). We're objecting to the loss of the latter in the service of the former. The higher the minimum league size, the further away from what was possible before the new interface gets.

I can understand what your saying Doc but the devs cant base every single thing they add to the game on how it will affect a small percentage that can only be on line from 2AM till 5AM on the lowest populated server.

If they did absolutely everything would be designed to only be soloed.. Like it or not the game is designed around players teaming. That is NOT a definition of what an MMO stands for its a fact...

We have ...

21 Task Forces hero side starting as low as level 10
11 Strike Forces villain side staring as low as level 15
7 trials hero side starting as low as level 10 (COP)
and 4 trials villain side as low as level 10 (again the COP)

Now some of these are Coop ... Lady Grey, Apex, Tin Mage, ect

and of course now, to date, we have added another 4 incarnate trials and with issue 21 we have added the sewer trial (Death from Below) which can be run on either side and starts as low as level 1 or 2. The point is that is an awful lot of content that has a mimimum numeber required to begin and a maximum number of players that can join at any one time. The game, for as long as I have played, also has always had easy to use mechanics that allow players to form teams to do even the content that has no team size restrictions. It's pretty clear that while the devs have made it possible to solo they tend to build new ideas around the idea that people want to team up and have fun.

Just look at one of their newest inovations.. while flawed the LFG allows players to simply click a button and then stand around waiting while the game itself forms a team for them. While this doesn't necessary make sure the team will have any sort of balance and any real chance to complete some tasks isn't the point HERE (they need to fix the thing imo) .. its just another example of them showing they are committed to making a game that revolves around team work and keep adding more and more thing to assist and encourage it. Do people solo content designed for x number of players.. yes they do. But it usually requires lining up a group of volunteers to act as fillers until the trial or TF starts and then having them all quit.

Now back to the upcoming event that started all of this.. The Winter Lord's realm didn't used to have a size restriction.. But I never participated in a single one that didnt have at least 1 full team (8 players) and depending on the time of day may have had as many as 2 or more teams in there battling. And as stated numerous times.. unless you have spent Billions on your build you need team mates to defeat the Winter Lord and claim the rewards. All I see is them making it easier to join an event.. previously you had to defeat the Winter Lord in a city zone, locate the present, and quickly form teams before the timer ran down so you could enter. Now it sounds like you can either just go to your LFG tab and sign up to join one or form a team before hand and them join the queue to enter. While it may still take time and effort to form a team depending on time of day and server .. sounds like they eliminated the need for a WL to spawn and be defeated before the event could even be considered which should mean a lot more of them will be run this year than there were last year. So .. again the question is .. this is a BAD thing because.......

There is a good reason. As has been stated before, Lord Winter is designed to be taken on by the average player with more than 1 team. Yes, specific individuals are capable of taking their min/maxed peeps or incarnates or getting very lucky with just the right team and taking the challenge on with 8 or fewer. Not everyone has tricked out toons (or incarnates) or is that good a veteran player or has such a standard well coordinated team.

The forum has a very vocal minority that can make some impressive arguments based on their own skills and experiences, but they do not, and in fact cannot, speak for the silent majority of players that make up the game, silent both because they do not attend the forums and/or cannot because they're freems/prems and simply don't have access. So it's very easy for threads like this to crop up that are very slanted and biased towards one train of thought because "I could do this" or "my friends and I managed this".

if the minimum team size is 12, then it was designed to have a minimum of 12 average players. They are testing it right now and maybe testing will show that 12 is too high for casual pick up runs and enough testers remarking about it will see it lowered, as well as the difficulty. But it's faulty to assume that the minimum size is high *solely* because they want to gate this behind the Team Up Teleporter function as some means of 'training' people for the Incarnate Trials or whatever. The designers don't simply create the content and just kick it out into beta, they test it themselves and with their own closed beta testers before it ever goes to the 'open' beta the VIP players have access to. Their job is to make sure that the average player jumping into this event (and remember, it's got to be balanced from level 10+) has a decent chance of being able to complete this trial without too many deaths. They have 2 years of data from the past 2 times this event has been run so they can tell exactly how many success and failures were involved with the trial and what size teams were used in each plus whatever data they have from testing it this year before offering it up for the beta.

So I think it's a little presumptuous to just assume they're doing it for arbitrary reasons. But complaining just because "you don't like it" and "it's not how you play" is not really a compelling argument. Nor does "I could do this last year" because not everybody is 'you' and the designers are trying to make it accessible to the guy that just started two weeks ago and just got his new character up to level 12 and wants to try this new winter trial people are talking about. More than likely, the devs found that random pick up games of 8 or so character had more failure than success and that is not their intention.

And if you're really that displeased about it, then get on the Beta, run through some trials and tell the devs first hand. It gives them clear empirical data and proper player feedback about it. There's a system directly revolving around changing things *before* they get out of beta, so put it to use, the iTrial changes show very much the devs can and will listen to player input through testing.

Well, technically, I'm not whining about the large group content as such, but the lack of small group options for said content. If someone wanted the maximum to be raised to 100 players, I'd support them. You want large groups? Fill your boots. I want small groups to be availabe AS WELL. Sux to be me, eh?

Eco.

Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow [The Incarnate System is] Jack Emmert all over again, only this time it's not "1 hero = 3 white minions" it's "1 hero = 3 white rocks."

You bought something called 'Generic Single Player Shooter X'? That sounds awful. Try the CoD:MW games, they're great. Also, they have online multiplayer modes too, if you don't like SP campaings (I haven't tried the multiplayer myself since I don't like games withoiut plot, but i hear they're well regarded among multiplayer shooter fans.

Portal 2 is also awesome, and it's got a 2-player co-op campaign too.

Eco

Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow [The Incarnate System is] Jack Emmert all over again, only this time it's not "1 hero = 3 white minions" it's "1 hero = 3 white rocks."

To add a bit more info to my OP, I'm not even particularly bothered about fighting the GM in it. I and my SG-mate like to have fun in cool maps when we play. Trials, TFs, seasonal events, they invariably have interesting and unique maps that are IMO worth savouring, and massive impatient fight fests aren't conducive to taking a stroll and smelling the roses, as it were. I have no problem with the actual mobs inside being som uber they need a dozen PCs to take them out. I just want to be able to see the content at my own pace.

Eco.

Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow [The Incarnate System is] Jack Emmert all over again, only this time it's not "1 hero = 3 white minions" it's "1 hero = 3 white rocks."

The problem with changing the team up teleporter to 8 is that the event will start every time with 8. Why is that a problem? As mentioned not every group of cobbled together 8 can beat the winter lord in his realm. I was on plenty of red side teams last year that flat out failed with less than two full teams.

They could redesign the encounter to be more pug 8 friendly but then it goes against their artistic vision - two teams facing off against a powerful threat.

I am hoping they don't take away the giant present option for people such as yourself who want to try it with less than that but if they have to then my vote is indeed on the 12+ requirement for a little extra success cushioning.

I find the forced teaming of the valentine's event, requiring a hero and a villain, more obnoxious than jumping in a queue, personally. I just wish the TuT worked from within instances. Even if it just said 'team is ready. You must exit this instance before confirming. 60 seconds remaining.'

edit: Most of these maps don't throw you out after completion (actually, I think the winter lord's does come to think of it, to get people to stop farming the map. Hmm.). What I did with the Death From Below trial and haunted mansion when I wanted to explore them was make 3 free accounts and pad the mission myself. That would be more obnoxious with a minimum of 12, granted.

No it wouldn't. Because for solo-centric players such as myself, a HUGE part of the draw of the game is chatting in globals with our ingame friends about the game we are all playing, and about other stuff like life, the universe and everything too.

One of us is missing the point of what the MM in MMOG means. It doesn't mean that the silent bots helping you in a trial happen to have humans behind them somewhere.

Eco

Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow [The Incarnate System is] Jack Emmert all over again, only this time it's not "1 hero = 3 white minions" it's "1 hero = 3 white rocks."

Wrong. They are asking for the game to cater to them AS WELL AS to those who like large team group content, for example.

It's not "You have a sandwich. I want a sandwich. Ima take your sandwich", it's 'You have a sandwich, I want a sandwich. Let's BOTH have a sandwich!"

We have scaling tech. Use it.

Eco

Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow [The Incarnate System is] Jack Emmert all over again, only this time it's not "1 hero = 3 white minions" it's "1 hero = 3 white rocks."

Exactly. The only forced solo content in the game is in Praetoria. And while I understand why they did it, I would gladly advocate raising it to something sensible if they could find a way without pissing people off.

Similarly, plenty of people were pissed at the min 4/max 4 Halloween event - and most of us disliked the max 4 just as much as the min 4.

Special content intended to keep the players entertained with it's novelty.

Except that's not how it works. Whenever I've tried to use it, I'll click a button, then sit on my hands for 45 minutes because I can't enter an instance, and then eventually join a pre-formed Trial team I hear about in Broadcast or over Global and go join that. I don't know if the tool is just broken in some way or if people simply never use it unless they have a full team, but I WILL NOT put my game on hold for 45 minutes in the vague hope that something happens.

I'm really not cross about the winter event itself, though. I hate events as a general thing. I didn't run a single Halloween Trial and I think I trick-or-treated by accident once when I clicked on the wrong door. Events don't interest me in the slightest, so the Winter Realm being gated behind multiple teams is as irrelevant as iTrials being gated - who gives a crap? I wasn't going to run that one way or another.

What bothers me is this mentality of crowds, in that all the best stuff is always reserved for all the biggest crowds. It also bothers me that the game is vacating its persistent world and migrating into instant teleportation from instance to instance. I like having contacts, I like having overworld doors to enter instances, I like having to travel a bit. With this over-reliance on the LFG Queue, City of Heroes is changing from what used to be an open-world game, into a hub-based online arena style game. We still have our old content, obviously, but so much of the newer content is this kind of lobby-style arena type that I really don't enjoy the prospect.

Originally Posted by Arcanaville Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.

So, like last year, when you had to have multiple people to defeat the Winter Event. :O

Okay, so what exactly is the problem this year? That it uses the LFG system? o.O Because you weren't duoing that event last year.

I actually think it's that most people don't use it Sam. I've talked to people who want to join in on a trial but they never use the LFG to do it. Some it seems out of fear of PuGing, some because they know they can just go to certain zones to find one forming.

It's worth noting that not only has much of the new content not been queue-based, First Ward, the mid level hero and villain arcs, the lowbie area revamps, Sutter and Kai, Apex and Tin Mage, but they've also added a whole new type of frequently occurring content in the SSAs that is definitely not ever going to be queue based. They have added a lot of trials, but they've added a lot of stuff in general.

My point is that the LFG queue should be used as a facility to enhance the ability to find a team, not as a replacement for contacts and mission doors. For everything startable from the LFG queue, a double should exist that's startable from the actual overworld.

Originally Posted by Arcanaville Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.

Yeah Sam that is probably the BIGGEST flaw with that system ... Almost no one uses it and when you try you can stand around for a LONG LONG time without ever getting into an event. Now Death from Below has been the exception to that, at least on Virtue, I have been able to simply join the queue and find a team relatively quickly. But again the thing just throws together who ever happens to be looking and forms the minimum sized team allowed.. Never was on a LFG team that had more than 4 team members. While the trial is certainly doable with 4 its a lot easier with 7 or 8... maybe they could add an option allowing you to select a minimum tem size you are willing to join!

That's a shame, Sam. The Halloween trial is really quite cool. It would be an awesome normal content solo mission, even without the very last bit with the GM.

I agree wholeheartedly with your sentiments regarding the arena-style hub or lobby approach. I like overworld contacts and mission doors too.

Eco

Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow [The Incarnate System is] Jack Emmert all over again, only this time it's not "1 hero = 3 white minions" it's "1 hero = 3 white rocks."

I actually tried for a DFB trial villain-side about mid-day my time (so about 10 AM US time on a work day) and spent about 30-45 minutes chatting in help with I think one other person who was also queuing, until another person showed up, invited us and started broadcasting for more. My reason to join a DFB was because I was playing a "mute" character and wanted to skip the new contacts that ask me to speak with them, but the truth of the matter is I'd have gone farther in less time if I'd just street-hunted in that time.

Team balance honestly doesn't concern me. It never has. As long as there are enough people, anything is possible, and I ran said DFB with 6 people without a shadow of difficulty, to the point where a good two or three of us could stay behind to level up and the rest of the team would be to the end of the level by the time we were done. What keeps me from teaming isn't the specifics or the balance, it's the hassle of putting one together. The LFG Queue was intended, I suspect, to alleviate some of that. And if it worked, and if it worked from inside an instance, and if people actually used it, it would. But right now, it's like trying to play multiplayer on Section 8 - lots of empty servers that you have to join and hope someone else joins, too, and then you two have to mess around until more people join. In other words, it doesn't work.

It is what it is. I dislike time-gated content because I run content whenever I can be arsed to do so, and by the time I get around to it, it's out of season once more. Meh. If it were available all year round, I'd run that content from time to time, just like I run contemporary TFs from time to time. However, I suffer from an extreme case of anti-hype, meaning I avoid what's popular at the time and get around to it when its popularity wanes.

And if that existed as a solo-capable task, I'd do it. Probably multiple times. From what I hear, it was a lot of fun, but I simply wasn't in the mood for teaming at the time, doubly so for a holiday event. Meh.

I was actually really disappointed that we couldn't make overworld contacts for the Mission Architect. That was a let-down, because it made all the Architect feel like an old arcade game with no exploration, just instance after instance after instance, always cooped up in that one single room.

To be honest, I've often wished we had missions that somehow made us travel on foot from place to place. Say we're escorting an NPC who can't run and can't jump and we need to get him from point A to point B to point C to point D on a huge outdoor map. I remember back when I was playing games like Dungeon Siege or Gothic, and how just the act of travelling from place to place was an exciting adventure in itself. So I had to go from this town to that town, but the road takes me through a forest, through a cave, through a swamp and then through a goblin stronghold. It's the same in games like Left 4 Dead.

With City of Heroes as "travel light" as it is, all of our missions usually come down getting exactly where we need to go, skipping everything in the way, clicking an objective and then moving on. Actually having a classic style dungeon crawl and actually having reason to become familiar with the overworld would be very welcome, at least to me.

Originally Posted by Arcanaville Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.

Yeah I hate how they've gated hunting Winter Lords in Paragon and the Rogue Isles and the Ski Chalet and Father Time behind the LFG with those huge team sizes. Must be terrible to not get to play in any kind of Winter event because of being forced to team for it.

Edit: Ok, I will play Devil's Advocate for a moment. So, what is the point of the Winter Lords now if they don't spawn access to Lord Winter's Realm? If they are going to take that function away then I think it SHOULD be replaced with some other reward, even if its just guaranteed candy cane salvage or something. Make it worthwhile to hunt them.