If Tankers got Regen


Aett_Thorn

 

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Originally Posted by Arcanaville View Post
I could tank with that as well. I can also tank with my SR scrapper at 25, with some difficulty. But for me, the question is not whether Regen would be a "good" or "bad" tanker. Those are subjective labels. The question is whether Regen would exist within the nominal range of performance considered reasonable for a new tanker powerset if a new tanker powerset was being constructed from scratch. If it is, it is. If it is not, then just because its a pre-existing set, doesn't exempt it from the same reasonable boundary conditions a new powerset would be expected to follow.
Again, a whole paragraph, responding to something I didn't say. All I said, is that I could tank with it. Would it be balanced as you've defined it here? I don't know. Don't care either. All I said is I could tank with it.

Meanie!


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Posted

Most of these suggested improvements are making me pretty glad that balance decisions aren't usually down to a popular vote.

Hmm, we need to improve regen by some amount for tankers. I know, 100% resistance to all debuffs, give integration a damage aura (5 damage scale every two seconds to only three targets in a 15 foot radius, not trying to be greedy), moment of glory should be a toggle (with a long recharge, say 60 seconds, so if it gets detoggled you're vulnerable), and revive should hit the entire map with all three types of warburg nuke. I mean, come on, we need the set to be tanky, people. These improvements are modest but effective.


 

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Originally Posted by New Dawn View Post
Again another fully IO setted toon.

Pointless arguing, people have their opinions and around and around in circles we will all go.

Dark Armour is Borderline. Super Reflexes is Borderline. The game content, especially all the old npcs and where you can find them in their level ranges were never put there with Dark Armour tankers or Super Reflex Tankers in mind. Regen in my opinion is even more borderline.

Yes we could all IO at 50, yes we could all tank some enemy group or another leveling up and actually think we've accomplished something which makes everything possible but overall on the whole the old game content is still there to level through without the new proliferated sets in mind when they were created.

I know that some people could end up with a lvl 50 Regen Tanker tanking, well whatever but the leveling up experience wouldn't be as comfortable as it is whilst fulfilling normal expectations without some avoidance or without beyond normal expectations in terms of support. Too much reaction need apply, too much self conservation clicking as opposed to the job at hand need apply.
Balance has to happen both while leveling and at 50. Yes, the game is balanced around SO's, but you have to be insane to think the Devs don't look at IO'd builds at all when considering it. That is just asking for problems.

Besides, haven't you learned to use inspirations yet? One or two Lucks makes a huge difference in survivability. This wouldn't be the first defensive set that would need a little inspirational help in the leveling process. My Dark Armor Brute ate blues faster than a 5 year old kid eats candy on Halloween, even after IO's until I got Cariac Alpha slotted. I don't see how Regen would be any worse off needing to carry purples and oranges.

I think this discussion might need to address the fact that Brutes already have Regen. This means that they way it was proliferated to Brutes has already undergone balance testing and they have decided its fine. So now all they really need to do is balance the scale up to Tanks in the same amount as the other sets that are shared with Brutes. How much better is SR on a Tank than a Brute? If I recall correctly, it is the only power set to be proliferated in this direction. SR is easier to soft cap, the scaling resists are slightly better, and it has more hit points, but is not drastically changed or drastically better
on a Tank.

The only real changes to armor sets happen when they get proliferated to Stalkers. Between Tanks, Brutes, and Scrappers most of your differences are added taunt auras and the AT resist, defense, and hit points scales.


 

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Originally Posted by MajorTractor View Post
Balance has to happen both while leveling and at 50. Yes, the game is balanced around SO's, but you have to be insane to think the Devs don't look at IO'd builds at all when considering it. That is just asking for problems.

Besides, haven't you learned to use inspirations yet? One or two Lucks makes a huge difference in survivability. This wouldn't be the first defensive set that would need a little inspirational help in the leveling process. My Dark Armor Brute ate blues faster than a 5 year old kid eats candy on Halloween, even after IO's until I got Cariac Alpha slotted. I don't see how Regen would be any worse off needing to carry purples and oranges.

I think this discussion might need to address the fact that Brutes already have Regen. This means that they way it was proliferated to Brutes has already undergone balance testing and they have decided its fine. So now all they really need to do is balance the scale up to Tanks in the same amount as the other sets that are shared with Brutes. How much better is SR on a Tank than a Brute? If I recall correctly, it is the only power set to be proliferated in this direction. SR is easier to soft cap, the scaling resists are slightly better, and it has more hit points, but is not drastically changed or drastically better
on a Tank.

The only real changes to armor sets happen when they get proliferated to Stalkers. Between Tanks, Brutes, and Scrappers most of your differences are added taunt auras and the AT resist, defense, and hit points scales.
The issue Arcanaville stated earlier that I didn't realize in full until then, was that regen and +hp don't scale with tanker mods in the same way def/res does. Yes, tanks would get a "bigger" heal and +hp from regen, and obviously more hp/s from an even regen percentage, but it doesn't make as big of a difference (from brute to tank) as defense or resist mods do when they scale.

A simple fix, IMO would be to give FH the regen debuff resistance that WP has, give a bit to integration, and then give quick recovery recharge debuff protection equal to that of quick/lightning reflexes. Then make reconstruction a clone of healing flames (lower recharge). None of these changes would be game breaking, but they would add up to quite a bit more survivability. As someone else pointed out, for every 2 uses of reconstruction, you could have fired off 3 HFs, so I think as the regenerating set, it should at least have an equal amount of healing from it's main "healing" (not regenerating) power.


 

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Originally Posted by Pyro_Master_NA View Post
The issue Arcanaville stated earlier that I didn't realize in full until then, was that regen and +hp don't scale with tanker mods in the same way def/res does. Yes, tanks would get a "bigger" heal and +hp from regen, and obviously more hp/s from an even regen percentage, but it doesn't make as big of a difference (from brute to tank) as defense or resist mods do when they scale.

A simple fix, IMO would be to give FH the regen debuff resistance that WP has, give a bit to integration, and then give quick recovery recharge debuff protection equal to that of quick/lightning reflexes. Then make reconstruction a clone of healing flames (lower recharge). None of these changes would be game breaking, but they would add up to quite a bit more survivability. As someone else pointed out, for every 2 uses of reconstruction, you could have fired off 3 HFs, so I think as the regenerating set, it should at least have an equal amount of healing from it's main "healing" (not regenerating) power.
I read that as well and understand. None of what I said was to refute Arcana. I'm just saying based on what we have seen in the past that big changes aren't likely to happen.

Even with a direct proliferation, even on SO's I still think it would probably be fine. Definitely not the top set, but everything new doesn't have to be.


 

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Originally Posted by Mint View Post
If tankers got regen, would that be a good thing or a bad thing and why?
Its going to be more phail than it is for brutes right now. Seriously this set needs help still with either the return of toggle instant healing or something else more.


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Originally Posted by Starsman View Post
This.

You MUST ignore IOs while balancing sets. You can partially keep them in mind (like give some set a minor token buff only so they can accomodate X IO options) but you MUST make sure that without IOs all sets are balanced.

Now more than ever. Although got to say, most people I know in game level with just SOs or lvl 25 generic IOs until they get to lvl 50.

IO balnce issues have to be addressed while balancing IOs.
I totally agree here, and thats why we have so many folks who think this set is fine for brutes because they build it around IOs or primary sets with crutch powers like parry instead of just looking at it as regen by itself with SO's. Its kind of obvious at this point the devs are not balacing with just SO's now if you look at the retardedness of how some of the things happen on the incarnate trials.


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Originally Posted by EvilRyu View Post
I totally agree here, and thats why we have so many folks who think this set is fine for brutes because they build it around IOs or primary sets with crutch powers like parry instead of just looking at it as regen by itself with SO's. Its kind of obvious at this point the devs are not balacing with just SO's now if you look at the retardedness of how some of the things happen on the incarnate trials.
I'm pretty sure I saw a comment somewhere saying the devs balance Itrials with IOs in mind, but everything else is still based around SOs.


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Originally Posted by Pitho View Post
I'm pretty sure I saw a comment somewhere saying the devs balance Itrials with IOs in mind, but everything else is still based around SOs.
I was under thi impression that itrials were balanced around everyone having at least a t2 of each ipower, and making it easier the more times you run it since once you surpass that level, you get ishifts and crazy buffing and pet ability.


 

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Originally Posted by MajorTractor View Post
Besides, haven't you learned to use inspirations yet? One or two Lucks makes a huge difference in survivability. This wouldn't be the first defensive set that would need a little inspirational help in the leveling process. My Dark Armor Brute ate blues faster than a 5 year old kid eats candy on Halloween, even after IO's until I got Cariac Alpha slotted. I don't see how Regen would be any worse off needing to carry purples and oranges.

I think this discussion might need to address the fact that Brutes already have Regen. This means that they way it was proliferated to Brutes has already undergone balance testing and they have decided its fine. So now all they really need to do is balance the scale up to Tanks in the same amount as the other sets that are shared with Brutes. How much better is SR on a Tank than a Brute? If I recall correctly, it is the only power set to be proliferated in this direction. SR is easier to soft cap, the scaling resists are slightly better, and it has more hit points, but is not drastically changed or drastically better
on a Tank.
For the sake of testing I run without inspirations otherwise I am bsing myself on balance testing. Insp trays give random insps anyway, over the course of time you can be all out. Team make up, why should I care what other people play? I shouldn't be kicking someone to get someone else to fill my holes - that came out wrong

Brutes have different expectations, I know as a Brute where I just can't do what a Tanker would, more so leveling up and pre IO set, scenarios where a Regen Brute would do just as badly if not worse.

Back to insps, Lucks are the greatest thing until you don't need them, then may come everything else and this is because lucks can actually help you over their duration better. Sturdies by extra time but don't cause misses. Greens put back health but the next hit could wipe that greens worth away. Anything other than lucks is second rate, even BFs, if ya didnt get hit in the first place ya wouldnt be held. A regen with neither res/def is simply going to have more holds stacked against them, screw it more kinds of debuffs, the wait for your rechging powers just takes forever. You lack your dullpain permaing, everything takes longer to rechg, you've lacked defense, you've got everything and no resistance to buy even a defender time. You can bring insps if ya like but in many places in game you'll run out soon enough.

My argument is that although under many terms and conditions regen can apply it's still not balanced enough.


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Seriously this set needs help still with either the return of toggle instant healing or something else more.
Still agree with this. Toggle IH would be a great boon to Regen and I can't see it as OP when the rest of secondary still lacks any form of defense or DDR, or meaningful resistance (new Resilience is nice especially when you stack it with Tough, but by itself it's not exactly going to soak much damage compared to your average resistance shield).

The following might enter conspiracy theory territory (but my street cred isn't afraid of anything once I've already agreed with EvilRyu, plus I like the crazy hat), but I'm wondering if regen might be hurt by the amount of PvPers playing this set, as with incarnates they're bound to spend some time in PvE. I mean, in a "datamining could be skewed" way. I think I see more Dark Armor characters than genuine PvE regens these days.


 

Posted

If they were going to turn Instant Healing back into a toggle, I would prefer they throw caution (and the cottage rule) to the wind and change it altogether.

Moment of Glory is supposed to represent what would happen if you truly 'instantly healed'. That why while most damage type defense buffs use 'deflected', MoG uses 'absorbed'. I would run with that concept a bit.

I might change Instant Healing to a scaling resistance buff something like:

1st target in range - Scale 1 resist to all but Psi
+
1st through 10th targets - Scale .25 resistance to all but Psi

Thus you're truly 'Instantly Healing' some of the damage. If you wanted to do the Energize cheat around the cottage rule, you could give Instant Healing 100% Regen to go along with the scaling buff and lower the initial target resistance to Scale .75 or .5.

This seems to deal with Arcanaville's concern about the scalability of the set between Tankers and Brutes/Scrappers/Stalkers. It also doesn't provide Regen a ridiculous solo advantage, like old school IH toggle would. Finally, it gives Regen the ability to layer protections like most other sets do.


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Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Arcanaville View Post
Right now, its too close not to consider reexamining the set before porting to Tankers. You're going to have to do it anyway when you start deciding where to put the taunt aura, which the devs have all but stated must be there.
In Integration, just like Brutes got when Regen was ported to them this issue.

The taunt aura is already there.

Edit: I like EvilGeko's proposed IH change. Resistance per enemy in melee would be an interesting mechanic, and it would not only make Regen more survivable, it would also make it more unique.


Quote:
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Originally Posted by EvilRyu View Post
Its kind of obvious at this point the devs are not balacing with just SO's now if you look at the retardedness of how some of the things happen on the incarnate trials.
Thats a different ball game, though. Incarnate trials are designed to be end game content, they are meant to be hard and to make heavily developed characters feel challenged (although I hear thats not exactly awlays the case, but its hard to, lets say, challenge Arcanaville without making the average level capped player mail a bomb to the developers.)

So, Incarnate content has to be balanced with IOs in mind (good thing for the devs, due to some bad decisions in IO design, that just means worrying about heavy recharge and heavy +def)

When they balance new casual stuff, though, like new level 20+ content in pretoria, they better make sure they only consider SOs.


 

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Originally Posted by EvilGeko View Post
If they were going to turn Instant Healing back into a toggle, I would prefer they throw caution (and the cottage rule) to the wind and change it altogether.

Moment of Glory is supposed to represent what would happen if you truly 'instantly healed'. That why while most damage type defense buffs use 'deflected', MoG uses 'absorbed'. I would run with that concept a bit.

I might change Instant Healing to a scaling resistance buff something like:

1st target in range - Scale 1 resist to all but Psi
+
1st through 10th targets - Scale .25 resistance to all but Psi

Thus you're truly 'Instantly Healing' some of the damage. If you wanted to do the Energize cheat around the cottage rule, you could give Instant Healing 100% Regen to go along with the scaling buff and lower the initial target resistance to Scale .75 or .5.

This seems to deal with Arcanaville's concern about the scalability of the set between Tankers and Brutes/Scrappers/Stalkers. It also doesn't provide Regen a ridiculous solo advantage, like old school IH toggle would. Finally, it gives Regen the ability to layer protections like most other sets do.
Dont like the idea for many reasons. Instant healing's absorbed works because it actually tells you it absorbed when it works.

A resist toggle will just look like resist with nothing making it look otherwise.

Ideally, I'd make it a +regen aura, but that would make it look way too much like Willpower.

I guess the second option would be to instead make Instant Healing add a per-target heal and +HP enhancement. This would make the power strengthen all other regeneration powers the more foes you have in range.

Reconstruction would not be affected due to it having enhanceable toxic resistance and being flagged to ignore outside buffs.

I am not sure how willing the devs are to do this, but i would also give the tanker version some exclusive buffs that would not go into the other ATs. Mainly, adding +HP to FastHealing.

There are many reasons to make the regen tank also different from the scrapper one. Where a regen scrapper is instantly relatable to Wolverine, a regen tanker may be more likely compared to The Hulk, a way sturdier and way more ressiliant character with a nature to get stronger the more people are about (may apply to brutes too but I would not hand the treatment to them for balance reasons.)


 

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Originally Posted by ClawsandEffect View Post
In Integration, just like Brutes got when Regen was ported to them this issue.

The taunt aura is already there.

Edit: I like EvilGeko's proposed IH change. Resistance per enemy in melee would be an interesting mechanic, and it would not only make Regen more survivable, it would also make it more unique.
I'm still wondering when the Brute versions of Scrapper sets will make it back to Scrappers... (Taunt Aura's, Swapped SR Power Order, et alia)


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Originally Posted by Errant View Post
I'm still wondering when the Brute versions of Scrapper sets will make it back to Scrappers... (Taunt Aura's, Swapped SR Power Order, et alia)
Don't hold your breath on that. Scrappers are not entitled to taunt auras unless they are assigned and am shocked they got one with Taunt Aura, but that may just had to do with timing, since it was added as it was being proliferated.

As for power reordering, my understanding is that cant happen once a set goes live. Reordering powers can result in character corruption. They can transform one power into another, but still there are issues there with existing builds and slotted IOs. Last time it happened was while rebalancing a few weapon sets powers and the powers in that got "reordered" by morphig them into eachother all shared enhancement slotting.


 

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Originally Posted by EvilGeko View Post
Again, a whole paragraph, responding to something I didn't say. All I said, is that I could tank with it. Would it be balanced as you've defined it here? I don't know. Don't care either. All I said is I could tank with it.

Meanie!
You said you could tank with it. I responded to that by saying I could also. I don't know where I'm required to then post a second post after that one saying, "having said that, here's a completely separate thought related to the first one but falling along a different line." I thought saying "but for me, the question..." captured that thought sufficiently well."


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Posted

Having said that, here's a completely separate thought related to the first one but falling along a different line. The reason I tend to focus on Dull Pain's +heath is because things like boosting regeneration do not address alpha strike and burst damage issues, which were a major focus of the Ice Armor changes back around I5. If players could convince the devs that Ice Armor lacked sufficient burst damage resiliency to warrant a change, I would think the same line of thought would work for Regeneration which as even less than Ice used to have.

As to putting scaling resistances in Instant Healing and converting it into a scaling resistance toggle, I think its unlikely but even if it were possible I would be unlikely to support that change. It doesn't so much try to justify using resistance to simulate a regenerative effect as handwave it away completely.


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Posted

What if the, IH was still a click, but instead of just a high regeneration power, it was changed to add +HP (heal) like DP, which in of itself would increase the regereation rate of the set, and then instead of just having lots of regeneration, it acted more like a self only heal over time. Either a steady heal every x seconds, or with burst heals that decreased in the amount healed and with longer duration ticks inbetween.

This way, it could be used prior to jumping in to absorb an alpha, or reactively to recover from sudden burst damage.


 

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Originally Posted by Arcanaville View Post
Having said that, here's a completely separate thought related to the first one but falling along a different line.
See that's much better.

Quote:
As to putting scaling resistances in Instant Healing and converting it into a scaling resistance toggle, I think its unlikely but even if it were possible I would be unlikely to support that change. It doesn't so much try to justify using resistance to simulate a regenerative effect as handwave it away completely.
It's not any goofier than SR's scaling resists. Comic book logic would reign supreme in either case. You would just be sore if the devs implemented something else I wanted.


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Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by EvilGeko View Post
It's not any goofier than SR's scaling resists. Comic book logic would reign supreme in either case. You would just be sore if the devs implemented something else I wanted.
And I dont know Arcanaville, but I HATED those scalling resistances from day one.

To this day I sustain, SR should had been improving by giving it +HP, not resistance. (Would had fit perfectly in Practiced Brawler, too.) You could had even gone with passive scaling +HP, I would not care about the scaling part, just about the resistance part.

But thats an argument for another day.


 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by EvilGeko View Post
It's not any goofier than SR's scaling resists. Comic book logic would reign supreme in either case. You would just be sore if the devs implemented something else I wanted.
Actually, a part of me would be pleased to think the rules no longer apply to anyone, so that includes me.


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Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Starsman View Post
And I dont know Arcanaville, but I HATED those scalling resistances from day one.

To this day I sustain, SR should had been improving by giving it +HP, not resistance. (Would had fit perfectly in Practiced Brawler, too.) You could had even gone with passive scaling +HP, I would not care about the scaling part, just about the resistance part.

But thats an argument for another day.
Like I said, I thought the SR thing was goofy, but didn't bother me that much. I mean, most of this stuff already strains suspension of disbelief to the breaking point. Willpower and Shield are clearly capable of superhuman feats that break their concept. (E.G. Would Captain America really have any defense against Professor Xavier?)

To use the Queen O' Maths verbiage, we 'hand-wave' away these problems in the interest of making a fun game.


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Posted

If you put scaling resistances in, how close does the set get now to Willpower?

Willpower can get ~90 hp/sec with a single enemy nearby with very high resistances to s/l and very good defences to everything else.

How much higher regen does Regeneration reasonably need to compete with this, because simply slapping a lot of res/def seems to give you two sets doing approximately the same thing.