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We don't generally handwave away mechanical concepts except where absolutely necessary. Its one thing to hand wave away the scaling resistances, and another to hand wave away, say, adding cold damage to fire blast. Handwaving away scaling resistances in a presumptively regeneration toggle is more the latter than the former. Particularly because it isn't necessary: regeneration already has an association with +health, which offers comparable benefits to +res.|
Originally Posted by EvilGeko
Like I said, I thought the SR thing was goofy, but didn't bother me that much. I mean, most of this stuff already strains suspension of disbelief to the breaking point. Willpower and Shield are clearly capable of superhuman feats that break their concept. (E.G. Would Captain America really have any defense against Professor Xavier?)
To use the Queen O' Maths verbiage, we 'hand-wave' away these problems in the interest of making a fun game. |
Also, the "concept" for shields is not Captain America: that is an exemplar, but not the concept. The concept for shields is shields: their version of what a shield can do. Powerset concepts do not have specific strengths or specific characterization packages associated with them. Reconstruction is not based on a specific ability of Wolverine.
In City of Heroes, there are two kinds of psionic attacks. The first kind has no physicality in the conventional sense. Its typed "psionic_attack" and would pass right through Shield defenses. The other kind has enough physicality to be evaded by defenses that work to either place the target out of the path of the attack or to place an obstacle in the path of the attack, typified by positional defenses. Shields work on the latter and not the former, which is a reasonable concession to the limits of the combat system in the game.
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The Fire Blaster absorbs all heat in a straight line creating a beam of cold. Comic logic.|
Originally Posted by Arcanaville
We don't generally handwave away mechanical concepts except where absolutely necessary. Its one thing to hand wave away the scaling resistances, and another to hand wave away, say, adding cold damage to fire blast. Handwaving away scaling resistances in a presumptively regeneration toggle is more the latter than the former. Particularly because it isn't necessary: regeneration already has an association with +health, which offers comparable benefits to +res.
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| Also, the "concept" for shields is not Captain America: that is an exemplar, but not the concept. The concept for shields is shields: their version of what a shield can do. Powerset concepts do not have specific strengths or specific characterization packages associated with them. Reconstruction is not based on a specific ability of Wolverine. |
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| In City of Heroes, there are two kinds of psionic attacks. The first kind has no physicality in the conventional sense. Its typed "psionic_attack" and would pass right through Shield defenses. The other kind has enough physicality to be evaded by defenses that work to either place the target out of the path of the attack or to place an obstacle in the path of the attack, typified by positional defenses. Shields work on the latter and not the former, which is a reasonable concession to the limits of the combat system in the game. |
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I always figured Mind Probe being tagged 'melee' meant it had requirements on positioning. Likely contact, or being very very close to contact. That allows for 'not being there, or placing an obstacle in the way'.|
Originally Posted by EvilGeko
That was an example. Most of the Shields available to players are a piece of metal or wood you hold on your arm. Could that block TK Blast. Sure, I'll buy that. Mind Probe....lol.
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The fact that contact doesn't seem to actually happen could simply be an artifact of the animation system. I mean, my Martial Arts and Street Justice characters seem to be punching the air in front of enemies all the time, and the enemies still get hit. Does that mean shields shouldn't work against them, either?
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Softcapping an Invuln is fantastic. Softcapping a Willpower is amazing. Softcapping SR is kissing your sister.
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Rationalising these things too far is just silly.
There's a reason the character is called The Incredible Hulk. Because it's not credible.
Perhaps a physical shield will do nothing against a psychic assault, but what if the shield is simply a mental projection or manifestation of your own psychic powers and it can do exactly that? Likewise why should a shield do anything against a fireball if the shield is a tiny buckler on one arm? Just don't even go there.
Back to regen? Okay, I fear it'd be too much like Willpower if it was altered to match Tanks better, but who really cares nowadays anyway? Let people have what they want to try out.
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My point exactly.|
Originally Posted by BunnyAnomaly
Rationalising these things too far is just silly.
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There's a reason the character is called The Incredible Hulk. Because it's not credible. Perhaps a physical shield will do nothing against a psychic assault, but what if the shield is simply a mental projection or manifestation of your own psychic powers and it can do exactly that? Likewise why should a shield do anything against a fireball if the shield is a tiny buckler on one arm? Just don't even go there. |
That's in response to Arcana and Starsman's objections, not to Bunny.
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When one argues about mechanics not fitting a powerset, it has nothing to do with "realism" or "comic logic". In this game, power sets are meant to provide a unique feel. Playing a Regen should feel different from playing a Willpower character, etc etc.
SR is about defense, that should be it's strongest asset and it is, despite other issues with the set. Resistances reducing damage are... grrr.....
What I always actually wanted SR to get was an entirely new mechanic, one where attacks would do random damage if they actually land (example, an attack hit but it was just a gaze at the cheek, or it may actually hit the kidneys.) That random luck based "resistance" would had been acceptable and keept with the set's gambler nature. (actually think it would be possible to still make this without new mechanics, all you need is a resist all toggle that grands random resistance values ever tick.)
... darn had I thought about that implementation back then... Bah the team back then would not had listen to me anyways.
ANYWAYS thats a derrail...
My point is, regeneration is a set about healing up, get your health back, thats the feel it should give. I think thats one of the reasons MoG always was controversial, not only did it have balance issues, but it never felt like part of the set. Messing with HP is not directly healing, but it still feels to be in the ballpark because it modifies your HP that in turn modifies your regeneration numbers.
The powergamer in me thinks "scaling resistances? That could be leveraged in awesome ways." The other part of me thinks "Regen's health should spike all over the place. Even back in the days of toggle-IH, your health yo-yoed all over the place."
So, this morning I had a wacky, probably unbalancable, idea and I figured I'd share.
Take IH and instead of it applying a single buff, it would apply several (4?) temp powers that provide +regen. Whenever you would normally die / drop below X% health / etc, IH would eat a stack of IH and instantly heal you. This would allow a Regen's health to fluctuate madly, but give it some insurance against spike damage. The design would encourage you not to rely on it, though, since it would reduce your regeneration and make you more likely to get spiked down again.
I say it's probably unbalancable is because it could cheat mechanics meant to kill a player (ie: Nova Fist, Disintigration, etc). Still, I think it'd be a neat effect.
Sarrate, I've got to say that's one of the best changes I've ever seen suggested. "Save from death" is such a fun mechanic and it'd fit Regen so well thematically.
... Also likely to be hit by the standard code rant, but damn. That would be great to have.
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Hmmm... I sort of like the direction of that idea... Not the full implementation but the core idea is actually darn good...|
Originally Posted by Sarrate
Take IH and instead of it applying a single buff, it would apply several (4?) temp powers that provide +regen. Whenever you would normally die / drop below X% health / etc, IH would eat a stack of IH and instantly heal you. This would allow a Regen's health to fluctuate madly, but give it some insurance against spike damage. The design would encourage you not to rely on it, though, since it would reduce your regeneration and make you more likely to get spiked down again.
I say it's probably unbalancable is because it could cheat mechanics meant to kill a player (ie: Nova Fist, Disintigration, etc). Still, I think it'd be a neat effect. |
Regen falls down to stand up again and scream to the turning mobs "HEY, IM NOT DONE WITH YOU GUYS!"
But the i mplementation you note can be heavily abused and problematic... Not to mention it seems to be more fit for Revive than Instant Healing.
Let me see...
How about modifying Revive to do this:
- Lower recharge to 60s (that way it can be used every 30 seconds with SOs, enough to have it for every alpha)
- Remove debt protection, but instead somehow pay back debt equivalent to what you just lost. (suppress this effect for 60 seconds)
- Add a Taunt Pulse that makes sure foes around you once more pay attention to you.
- Lower heal %, so it requires 3 SO slotting for you to get 75% health back.
- A stackable 60 -max endurance debuff (temp power that persist death.)
- 60 - 30% damage debuff for 30 seconds (again temp power that stacks)
- Half the heal suppresses for 60 seconds.
Should your regeneration succumb to an alpha, you can just stand up again.
Without hasten, in an SO world, you end up able to absorb an alpha about every 30 seconds, but get the xp debt refund only every 60 seconds.
You also are more less likely to stay standing the second time you return from death within 60 seconds of your previous revive.
The stackable -max endurance and -dmg will make sure this is mostly for tanking, and not something that will make you a godly soloer. It will denote an exhaustation after each regeneration from death.
It will require user action, and you still will miss on any xp granted while you are dead (easily avoidable by setting the power to auto at the expense of no auto hasten or Rage or anything else.)
There will be lots of people that will still hate the dying, but some one that gets into it will not see it as death, but as a knockdown and start of round 2.
I'm a big fan of making self rez'es useful when you aren't dead and having them act as a mini "overdrive" type power.
Like if Rise of The Phoenix could be used while alive, it'd give you the damage blast, stun, and maybe toss in a 30 - 40% damage boost to fit in with the theme of fire. (If used while alive)
Soul Transfer used while alive could be a + Max HP +Max end from sucking up those souls, in addition to the massive stun and minor damage.
For regen, especially if it was ported to tanks, revive could give you a +resist to all (but psi probably, or at least just S/L) for every foe in range.
Slap it on a 300/60 or 300/45 timer and you make self rez powers awesome.
Aside from that, I think the best bet for making Regen into a tank set would be a Rise to the Challenge clone somewhere in there, where instead of regen, you got scaling resists.
Do the dev's read this stuff were talking about, cause if so were giving them all good ideas here for a regen tank. They might actually make a regen tank cause of our discussions here. A few tweaks here and there and this set might actually be not only slightly sturdy but one of the better sets to see and play with.
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Yes, the devs read this stuff. |
Originally Posted by Mint
Do the dev's read this stuff were talking about, cause if so were giving them all good ideas here for a regen tank. They might actually make a regen tank cause of our discussions here. A few tweaks here and there and this set might actually be not only slightly sturdy but one of the better sets to see and play with.
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The recent tweaks to Regen when they ported it to brutes were VERY close to some suggestions I had made back in December or January. And also very close to a number of similar suggestions I had seen over the past couple years. It wasn't a new idea, I just brought it up most recently I think.
It doesn't necessarily mean anything, but for the numbers to end up within 5% of where I suggested (and dead on with the regen debuff resistance) is a helluva of a coincidence. It's also possible that they were entirely unrelated and I just guessed damn close to what they were going to do anyway. *shrug* Who knows, it's highly doubtful they'll ever come out and say "Yeah, we got this idea from Claws.", so I'll probably never know if I had anything to do with it or if it was just a coincidence.
Arcanaville has had the devs use a suggestion or two over the years as well, most notably the addition of Elusivity in PvP. And probably a few more ideas that were never made public.
I'm sure there are other cases of something that someone suggested ending up in the game, but those are the only ones I know of offhand. At least a couple of the devs read the Suggestion and Idea forums on a fairly regular basis, they just don't post in it because any idea they post in would be taken as an indication that they're going to do it, and they don't want that.
But the devs DO read our ideas, and the mods and Zwillinger probably point them toward anything interesting if they hadn't found it yet.
(I still like EvilGeko's idea for a resistance boosting aura)
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Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison See, it's gems like these that make me check Claws' post history every once in a while to make sure I haven't missed anything good lately. |
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A long while ago, someone suggested "reactive heal" for Regen: if you hit zero, a heal would fire instantly to bring you back above zero without dying, and this could happen once per some interval. The problem then and now is that the tech doesn't exist to do it. In fact, back then the best we could say was "the tech doesn't exist to do it" and now I can say "I'm not sure how you would do it even if the devs wanted to add the tech." "Dying" is a difficult thing to override.|
Originally Posted by Sarrate
The powergamer in me thinks "scaling resistances? That could be leveraged in awesome ways." The other part of me thinks "Regen's health should spike all over the place. Even back in the days of toggle-IH, your health yo-yoed all over the place."
So, this morning I had a wacky, probably unbalancable, idea and I figured I'd share. Take IH and instead of it applying a single buff, it would apply several (4?) temp powers that provide +regen. Whenever you would normally die / drop below X% health / etc, IH would eat a stack of IH and instantly heal you. This would allow a Regen's health to fluctuate madly, but give it some insurance against spike damage. The design would encourage you not to rely on it, though, since it would reduce your regeneration and make you more likely to get spiked down again. I say it's probably unbalancable is because it could cheat mechanics meant to kill a player (ie: Nova Fist, Disintigration, etc). Still, I think it'd be a neat effect. |
Having it trigger before death is problematic in terms of picking just the right spot to do it that isn't too early and isn't too late, especially because its likely that this mechanism would have at least a quarter second delay in firing. The game engine doesn't really do "instantly" very well.
There was a related discussion back then about adding scaling regeneration to Regen, in fact before SR got scaling resistances. Although I didn't originate the idea, I did do the math to show it was possible to balance this, albeit in a complex way related to damage spikes. Here, the idea was that when health was high, regen was low so damage could easily bring health down. But when health was low, regen was very high, so health tended not to stay down there and bounce back up quickly.
Keep in mind this idea was formulated not long after toggle IH went away and before I5, so it was being balanced at a time when scrapper performance was still historically sky-high. Back then, the only thing Regen was *supposed* to be vulnerable to was quick burst damage: anything slower than that simply wouldn't be fast enough to take out toggle IH. The intent was to replicate some of toggle-IH's performance in sustained damage while creating a higher vulnerability to burst damage than being at full health with perma DP would imply. Doing that by granting super-high regen but only at low health meant Regen could have high alpha resilience (relatively) and high sustainable damage through regen, but not both at the same time.
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What if you added a certain amount of health that acted as negative health. So it would work something like this:|
Originally Posted by Arcanaville
A long while ago, someone suggested "reactive heal" for Regen: if you hit zero, a heal would fire instantly to bring you back above zero without dying, and this could happen once per some interval. The problem then and now is that the tech doesn't exist to do it. In fact, back then the best we could say was "the tech doesn't exist to do it" and now I can say "I'm not sure how you would do it even if the devs wanted to add the tech." "Dying" is a difficult thing to override.
Having it trigger before death is problematic in terms of picking just the right spot to do it that isn't too early and isn't too late, especially because its likely that this mechanism would have at least a quarter second delay in firing. The game engine doesn't really do "instantly" very well. |
Regen player has 2000 Health and 500 negative health. Takes a hit for 2200 HP. Instead of dying right on the spot, the Regen is at -300. The player is laid low (held) until they or another player returns their health to 0 or above.
So you would have time to use your heals that you might not now.
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I got into micro-biology, learning about extremophile bacteria, giving me a concept that worked well with both regen and the MoG. Happy with this concept, I made a Regen, MoG and the rest of the Regen set were completely compatible. Then what do they do? Frigging change MoG, but it was alright I could work with that but it just needed to last the length between cossie changes.
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Originally Posted by Starsman
I think thats one of the reasons MoG always was controversial, not only did it have balance issues, but it never felt like part of the set.
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Is that even possible? I'd rather not have the devs play around with negative numbers for the live environment. I'd probably break things the in ways unforeseen like unresisted damage did for pve |
Originally Posted by EvilGeko
What if you added a certain amount of health that acted as negative health. So it would work something like this:
Regen player has 2000 Health and 500 negative health. Takes a hit for 2200 HP. Instead of dying right on the spot, the Regen is at -300. The player is laid low (held) until they or another player returns their health to 0 or above. So you would have time to use your heals that you might not now. |
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Technically, that would be identical to the situation where the Regen had 2500 health, and the regen had a power that self-mezzed them below 500 health (and their regeneration rate was 80% of normal). Of course, if you're held you can't use reconstruction normally.|
Originally Posted by EvilGeko
What if you added a certain amount of health that acted as negative health. So it would work something like this:
Regen player has 2000 Health and 500 negative health. Takes a hit for 2200 HP. Instead of dying right on the spot, the Regen is at -300. The player is laid low (held) until they or another player returns their health to 0 or above. So you would have time to use your heals that you might not now. |
Another strange way to get this sort of behavior is to change the way debt works so that debt is awarded ten seconds after you die instead of immediately. Then add 100% debt protection to Revive for ten seconds. If you revive within 10 seconds of dying, you get no debt, and dying without debt is essentially not dying.
However, this could easily be abused, so you have a refractory period when the debt protection cannot be reapplied, say four minutes, even if revive's recharge is lowered below that threshold. You'll rez, but with debt as normal.
A possibility I suggested to Castle in another context, but would require a significant UI change, would be to change reconstruction so that it is less all or nothing on recharge. Change reconstruction so that its base heal is 12.5% instead of 25%, and its base recharge is 30 seconds instead of 60 seconds. Then alter the mechanics of the power so that it recharges in 30 seconds, but if it is not used it continues to gain in strength until at twice its nominal recharge it is twice as strong. So using it at 30 seconds would grant a 12.5% heal. Using it at 40 seconds would grant a 16.7% heal. Using it at 50 seconds would grant a 20.8% heal, and using it at 60 seconds would grant the maximum heal of 25%. This would have to obey slotting in both heal and recharge, which would require new mechanics and new UI code, which would make it an expensive change. Not to mention it would require educating players about the new mechanics.
I still think, though, if you cut the recharge of Dull Pain from 360 to 180 seconds (allowing it to be essentially perma at low levels with slotting) and make the +maxhealth fully enhanceable instead of half enhanceable for tankers specifically, the set would have no problems at all. And both changes are nominally justifiable as a way to work around the fact that tankers have neither higher regeneration modifiers nor higher health buff modifiers. That's fine when regeneration and health buffs are not central to the powerset's performance, but the special case arises with Regen when nearly all of the set's performance is tied up in effects that tankers do not scale.
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Shouldn't that be 240 seconds? (~123 seconds with 3 SO's Rech)|
Originally Posted by Arcanaville
I still think, though, if you cut the recharge of Dull Pain from 360 to 180 seconds (allowing it to be essentially perma at low levels with slotting) and make the +maxhealth fully enhanceable instead of half enhanceable for tankers specifically, the set would have no problems at all. And both changes are nominally justifiable as a way to work around the fact that tankers have neither higher regeneration modifiers nor higher health buff modifiers. That's fine when regeneration and health buffs are not central to the powerset's performance, but the special case arises with Regen when nearly all of the set's performance is tied up in effects that tankers do not scale.
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Also, what is the likelyhood that some/all of these alterations would back-flow to AT's that already have the set? Would it break Self-Empathy on Scrappers if DP was perma-able with SO's (would definitely turn it intonothing more than a bigger Recon for Stalkers, since their HP cap is 133% of base, so the +HP is wasted even more)?
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If the justification for changing these powers for tankers is that tankers don't scale health, heal, and regen, then there's no specific reason to backport the changes to scrappers, brutes, or stalkers. They all share the same modifiers for health, heal, and regen. Backporting them would put us right where we started: with tankers having the same numbers as scrappers, and not scaling.|
Originally Posted by Errant
Shouldn't that be 240 seconds? (~123 seconds with 3 SO's Rech)
Also, what is the likelyhood that some/all of these alterations would back-flow to AT's that already have the set? Would it break Self-Empathy on Scrappers if DP was perma-able with SO's (would definitely turn it intonothing more than a bigger Recon for Stalkers, since their HP cap is 133% of base, so the +HP is wasted even more)? |
As to the dull pain change, at 180s recharge you could perma Dull Pain with DOs, which I think is not unreasonable for a regeneration tanker. This one change is compensating for the fact that a Regen tanker would have the exact same strength in fast healing, integration (regen), reconstruction, and instant healing as a Regen scrapper. Rather than scaling all those numbers upward by some tanker fudge factor, I'm focusing all of the improvement on Dull Pain which offers burst damage resilience that is most valuable, and therefore appropriate, to Tankers.
Keep in mind I don't think Regen is a bad set: I just think its problematic for tankers. And since there's a legitimate avenue for asking if the fact that nearly all of Regeneration's strength is not scaled by tanker mods relative to scrapper mods, it seems to make sense to me to try to kill two birds with one stone: acclimate regeneration to tankers and address a potential scaling problem simultaneously.
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I've wanted to modify self rez powers to something like this for a while. The best Idea I've come up with is an auto power that makes the character invincible (by not letting health drop below 1) and executes the rez effects when the player hits 1 health. After restoring the character, the power would suppress for a period of time, simulating recharge. With the power suppressed they would no longer be invincible nor would they heal until the power re-activates.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
A long while ago, someone suggested "reactive heal" for Regen: if you hit zero, a heal would fire instantly to bring you back above zero without dying, and this could happen once per some interval. The problem then and now is that the tech doesn't exist to do it. In fact, back then the best we could say was "the tech doesn't exist to do it" and now I can say "I'm not sure how you would do it even if the devs wanted to add the tech." "Dying" is a difficult thing to override.
Having it trigger before death is problematic in terms of picking just the right spot to do it that isn't too early and isn't too late, especially because its likely that this mechanism would have at least a quarter second delay in firing. The game engine doesn't really do "instantly" very well. |
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Wouldn't it be easier to just make Revive heal for full health, plus provide some type of regeneration boost, along with a short 5 secord or so immunity upon use?
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It would be easy to do, but you'd still be dead and still collect debt to use it. I think most people would go along with the notion that if Revive somehow protected against receiving debt, then its not really dying: its a bounce-back.|
Originally Posted by Tannim222
Wouldn't it be easier to just make Revive heal for full health, plus provide some type of regeneration boost, along with a short 5 secord or so immunity upon use?
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Also a real death in game terms would be potentially problematic for a tanker because they would instantly lose aggro. Dark Armor solves that problem by giving a rez that pretty much allows a tanker (and anything else) to mez everything in the room short of an AV with triangles up. Its a legitimate tanker act to die and pop back up with essentially the most powerful player mez in the game. You're still "tanking." But dying, dumping all aggro onto everyone else, and then having to rez and retoggle is probably less practical from a tanking perspective than Soul Transfer is.
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What about what i mentioned earlier? Revive would pulse an AoE taunt that would make sure everything focuses back on it, and pays back lost debt, on a much shorter recharge so it can be used regularly, but with a cumulating temp power debuff so it becomes harder and harder to keep doing it back to back.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
It would be easy to do, but you'd still be dead and still collect debt to use it. I think most people would go along with the notion that if Revive somehow protected against receiving debt, then its not really dying: its a bounce-back.
Also a real death in game terms would be potentially problematic for a tanker because they would instantly lose aggro. Dark Armor solves that problem by giving a rez that pretty much allows a tanker (and anything else) to mez everything in the room short of an AV with triangles up. Its a legitimate tanker act to die and pop back up with essentially the most powerful player mez in the game. You're still "tanking." But dying, dumping all aggro onto everyone else, and then having to rez and retoggle is probably less practical from a tanking perspective than Soul Transfer is. |
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Yeah, I should have included the "probably not possible to implement with current tech" disclaimer, too. :P|
Originally Posted by Arcanaville
A long while ago, someone suggested "reactive heal" for Regen: if you hit zero, a heal would fire instantly to bring you back above zero without dying, and this could happen once per some interval. The problem then and now is that the tech doesn't exist to do it. In fact, back then the best we could say was "the tech doesn't exist to do it" and now I can say "I'm not sure how you would do it even if the devs wanted to add the tech." "Dying" is a difficult thing to override.
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Originally Posted by Starsman
How about modifying Revive to do this:
(...) There will be lots of people that will still hate the dying, but some one that gets into it will not see it as death, but as a knockdown and start of round 2. |
1) Self-rezzes have, as far as I can remember, universally positive effects. Willpower's has self buffs, Fiery Aura's deals damage, and Dark Armors has a massive stun. If you're dead, they're buttons you like pressing. That modification listed above? I would never look forward to pressing that button. I mean, if we're balancing the set asssuming the set will die often enough to need a good self rez, don't tie it up with debuffs.
2) One of the reasons I suggested the "cheat-death" mechanism is because dying has a very annoying effect: detoggling. Depending on the build, that is not an insignificant penalty. With just two toggles, it would take 8.052s to get back into the fight, not including using any self heals like Reconstruction:
* Revive - 1.716s (1.5s)
* Integration - 3.168s (3.1s)
* Tough - 3.168s (3.1)
That's a really painful timeout, especially if you're expected/balanced around using it often.
[edit: Keep in mind that dying means losing Dull Pain, too.]
To this day I sustain, SR should had been improving by giving it +HP, not resistance. (Would had fit perfectly in Practiced Brawler, too.) You could had even gone with passive scaling +HP, I would not care about the scaling part, just about the resistance part.
But thats an argument for another day.
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