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This made me laugh as 9/10 the target will waste it. It does have some value depending on whether or not you can get a decent pet to stand next to.
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Originally Posted by Sarrate
* Sonic Repulsion - Toggle radial knockback that you can't use solo and can't control. (Target can proceed to be a bonehead with it.)
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He will honor his words; he will definitely carry out his actions. What he promises he will fulfill. He does not care about his bodily self, putting his life and death aside to come forward for another's troubled besiegement. He does not boast about his ability, or shamelessly extol his own virtues. - Sima Qian.
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If you like running in, getting alpha'd and dying or getting alpha'd, surviving but feeling all the debuffs and eventually dying or being the empaths one and only commitment is interesting, then yeah.
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Originally Posted by CBeet
It would be an interesting set to play, that's for sure!
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He will honor his words; he will definitely carry out his actions. What he promises he will fulfill. He does not care about his bodily self, putting his life and death aside to come forward for another's troubled besiegement. He does not boast about his ability, or shamelessly extol his own virtues. - Sima Qian.
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This. If you want Regen on a character with tons of HP roll a brute. I'm currently playing a StJ/Regen brute. Regen just isn't built for taking alphas (outside of MoG). The Immortality line metric commented on above (and Regen's performance with it) is inapplicable to tanking/alpha strike situations.
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Originally Posted by Wintry
They would die en masse.
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The devs would compensate by giving us Ninjitsu (Smokeflash), allowing us to kill our teams en masse.
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Originally Posted by Wintry
They would die en masse.
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They ALL float down here. When you're down here with us, you'll float too!
@Starflier
I tank just fine on my Brute SS/Regen, so yeah, I think Tankers would be fine. It's not a face-rolling set, but I think that's one of its charms. 
The City of Heroes Community is a special one and I will always look fondly on my times arguing, discussing and playing with you all. Thanks and thanks to the developers for a special experience.
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I think you're drastically underestimating the survivability of a well-played regen. |
Originally Posted by New Dawn
If you like running in, getting alpha'd and dying or getting alpha'd, surviving but feeling all the debuffs and eventually dying or being the empaths one and only commitment is interesting, then yeah.
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If it were as bad as you say, why do the people who know the numbers inside and out still like the set, seeing as how you're basically saying the only thing it's good at is dying?
If a Regen scrapper can pull off a double RWZ Challenge, then I think a well played Regen tank will be just fine.
If you're not familiar with what an RWZ Challenge is: You go into RWZ, find a spawn of level 54 Rikti that includes a minimum of 3 bosses and engage it, without losing agro at any time, and with no inspirations or temp powers. The spawns are usually 10-12 enemies, and always contain at least one level 54 Mesmerist. Now double that to 20 enemies, with 6 bosses.
That was done with a Claws/Regen scrapper. If a scrapper can pull something like that off with Regen, what would a tank be able to do with 1,000 more HP and similar ability to leverage KD for mitigation? (Because a character's survivability includes BOTH sets, not just one)
So, if you're convinced that the only thing Regen is any good at is dying, well......you're wrong.
My own personal Regen scrapper has outlived just about any powerset you can think of in his 6 year career at various times. I've outlived Invulns and Stone tanks. I've outlived SRs. I've outlived Katana/Willpowers.
How did I do that? Because I have a clue what I;m doing with the set and don't expect my secondary to sit there and passively do everything for me. If you play a Regen like a Willpower, of course it's going to die. Play your Regen like a REGEN and you'd be very surprised at some of the things you can pull off.
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Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison See, it's gems like these that make me check Claws' post history every once in a while to make sure I haven't missed anything good lately. |
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For your convenience, dear reader, a TL;DR is included at the bottom.|
Originally Posted by ClawsandEffect
I think you're drastically underestimating the survivability of a well-played regen.
If it were as bad as you say, why do the people who know the numbers inside and out still like the set, seeing as how you're basically saying the only thing it's good at is dying? If a Regen scrapper can pull off a double RWZ Challenge, then I think a well played Regen tank will be just fine. If you're not familiar with what an RWZ Challenge is: You go into RWZ, find a spawn of level 54 Rikti that includes a minimum of 3 bosses and engage it, without losing agro at any time, and with no inspirations or temp powers. The spawns are usually 10-12 enemies, and always contain at least one level 54 Mesmerist. Now double that to 20 enemies, with 6 bosses. That was done with a Claws/Regen scrapper. If a scrapper can pull something like that off with Regen, what would a tank be able to do with 1,000 more HP and similar ability to leverage KD for mitigation? (Because a character's survivability includes BOTH sets, not just one) So, if you're convinced that the only thing Regen is any good at is dying, well......you're wrong. My own personal Regen scrapper has outlived just about any powerset you can think of in his 6 year career at various times. I've outlived Invulns and Stone tanks. I've outlived SRs. I've outlived Katana/Willpowers. How did I do that? Because I have a clue what I;m doing with the set and don't expect my secondary to sit there and passively do everything for me. If you play a Regen like a Willpower, of course it's going to die. Play your Regen like a REGEN and you'd be very surprised at some of the things you can pull off. |
Contexts. It's all about contexts, and people love to mix them up.
First off for anything you just took the effort of laying down to be of any relevance whatsoever it needs to be achievable with rather basic resources. Strictly speaking it should even be doable with just SOs since if I'm not mistaken it's still being claimed that game content other than incarnate content isn't being made harder and is as doable without the invention system as it is with it.
Even if that weren't claimed it's still important in this context - all the more with F2P now.
You can't seriously add a powerset to the character creation screen that requires new players who come in and see it as an option like any other option to use the knowledge they do not have to devise a build using the invention system they do not have access to just for toon to be able to be of the most basic use in what its AT is essentially for.
This double RWZ challenge doing scrapper you speak of really should:
- Not cost loads of inf.
- Not even use IOs to begin with.
Why not? Because proliferation shouldn't aim to cater to the needs and wishes of us bitteroldvets who just wanna slap Hami around on a blapper or have been preparing for years to face Rularuu the Ravager when the day comes, it should bring sets which - to a large extent - already accommodate serving the ATs primary purpose (tanking, just to remind you) to that AT.
Tankers can tank, scrappers can tank, brutes can tank... hell, a fender with the presence pool can tank.
Some tank better than others though, let's stop to think why. What is truly unique to a tanker that makes it better at its own job than a scrapper could be? Not def or res, because the scrapper could... you know... pop inspirations.
[wiseguyprot]Yes, those can only get him to a lower res hardcap. Now that you're done pointing that out to me with your excited looking, glittering eyes, thinking you just undermined the whole rest of the post you hadn't read yet ask yourself this: does this make the AT? Is any AT basically just a copy of another AT with its attributes changed such that you can pop 1 small insp more without that being in vain... and nothing else? I thought so - shoo shoo.[/wiseguyprot]
What really sets the tanker apart from the rest is its all in all better aggro control and high maximum HP, because gauntlet and the maximum HP are inherent to the AT - everything else is just powerset business.
Since I don't see def and res in the above phrase (yes, resistance cap is high for them, but that's not the same as res and it's not like the AT inherently gets any actual res) those two are powerset business.
At the very basis when you get hit there are roughly only three factors that decide whether you live or die: your HP when you get hit, your def to the damage when you get hit by it and your res to the damage when you get hit by it.
So we've established the overlap on stuff that doesn't come inherently with your choice for the tanker AT and stuff that plays a role in governing over your life includes at least def and res.
Considering the facts the tanker's job is to keep the aggro off his teammates for as long as needed (confirmed by the presence of one of those unique inherent traits: Gauntlet, which suggests taunting is useful to be effective from the AT's design goal's perspective) and that it's pretty hard to hold aggro when you're dead let's have a look at those other two life governing factors we need to find a way to come by; let's have a look at def and res in the regen set.
Oh.
Errr...
Wait a minute...
It's virtually absent.
Remember the context it has to be of at least some use in - the one with slightly more relevance to pondering potential proliferation than the RWZ challenge tale.
Being the prime AT for tanking purposes a tanker should be able to do a decent job tanking all regular content for a full team on normal rep. That means +0x8 spawns.
Not in the scrapper way where you use regen to shrug off the stray hit a proper tanker (read: a shield/dm or inv/? or such) missed pulling towards himself, but whilst holding max aggro.
EBs and AVs should be all the same, the bigger and badder the foe the more you can rely on a few buffs from the team, that's just how it works.
Now let me remind you what happens at this point, just to get the mental picture right: The tanker gets hit. It gets hit lots. It gets hit from everywhere. It gets hit by everyone and its mother and its brother - even the baby. It gets basically hammered, because honestly full aggro all focused on you thanks to your pro taunting results in many, many, toomanytocount incoming things bound for your head per second.
You have only mediocre def if you pick up all the trash like CJ, Weave, Maneuvers etc and resistance is so little it's hardly worth mentioning.
What def from sets? No sets here because it's nice for bonus, but it can't be taken into account in deciding whether or not to proliferate since firstly not everyone even has access to IOs and secondly even those who do should be able to use their toons for precisely those things the ATs were designed for in all traditional content using just SOs without notable issues.
In this regard regen doesn't have any notable issues, regen is one big and hell of a notable issue.
On a sidenote even with more def you'll find yourself stabbed in the back on a regular basis by lack of DDR.
And no, adding DDR isn't an option either, because DDR is only for sets that also actually get defense to begin with.
Finally, I don't think the devs would be too keen on the idea of placing another primary set on the menu under tankers at character creation, including above the set's description in big red lettering: "WARNING: This will utterly suck unless you extend it with a system that errr... you sort of need to be VIP for or have a truckload of Paragon Rewards for."
TL;DR:
... tankers?
... lolregen?
Duo MoITF - 26:06 | Duo MoKahn - 25:50 | Duo MoLGTF - 29:34 |
Did I strike a nerve?
Because that's a LOT of angst over a set that you think is so terrible.
If it's so terrible, and will be the worst set tankers ever got......please explain to me why it's so important that you spend that much energy smacking down an opinion you disagree with. I'll bet you spent at LEAST a half hour on that post, am I close?
If it's that bad, you can just not play it when it comes out and everyone will be happy. Or does the idea of someone ELSE playing a Regen tank just offend you that much?
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Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison See, it's gems like these that make me check Claws' post history every once in a while to make sure I haven't missed anything good lately. |
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No, but thanks for the concern.|
Originally Posted by ClawsandEffect
Did I strike a nerve?
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by ClawsandEffect
Because that's a LOT of angst over a set that you think is so terrible.
If it's so terrible, and will be the worst set tankers ever got......please explain to me why it's so important that you spend that much energy smacking down an opinion you disagree with. |
If you believe the correlation between number of words typed and the extent to which you feel emotionally engaged in a subject or whatever it is you're getting at is a lineair graph just... please don't go into psychology.
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Originally Posted by ClawsandEffect
If it's that bad, you can just not play it when it comes out and everyone will be happy. Or does the idea of someone ELSE playing a Regen tank just offend you that much?
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The only reason I felt inclined to post the full motivation for being against this is because the way I see it you were steering the discussion for as far as there was one in the wrong direction by implying regen has more than enough potential to fullfil it's job just fine in any case, which I believe in the context that matters it doesn't at all.
As for why it's important (for as far as anything posted on these boards is important... as that's very relative) it seems you're wrongly assuming I just care for things that directly affect me personally, but I don't.
Even if I don't pick it (which wouldn't happen since I don't do tankers at all anymore in today's game anyway) it could still have a negative effect on others. In a worst case scenario it could have a negative effect even on the retention rate of new players. If you make a wrong pick and get disappointed / annoyed by whatever factors repeatedly in a short timespan after just getting started that's usually bad news.
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Originally Posted by ClawsandEffect
I'll bet you spent at LEAST a half hour on that post, am I close?
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Duo MoITF - 26:06 | Duo MoKahn - 25:50 | Duo MoLGTF - 29:34 |
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I am not sure where to start, but i do know i want to keep it very short.|
Originally Posted by ClawsandEffect
I think you're drastically underestimating the survivability of a well-played regen.
If it were as bad as you say, why do the people who know the numbers inside and out still like the set, seeing as how you're basically saying the only thing it's good at is dying? If a Regen scrapper can pull off a double RWZ Challenge, then I think a well played Regen tank will be just fine. |
For one, RWZ Challenge runners tend to be heavily IOd, often with softcapped defenses, between other things. It's not something you can use to measure tanking efficiency from level 1-50.
Second, regen can be a great set for survival, as long as you are not confronted by heavy burst damage. the RWZ challenge is rather constant and is nothing like jumping 16 foes that all have their heaviest attacks ready to fire, and all will fire at once.
Remember: a tanker must be able to tank (this means taking on alphas and surviving them,) without IOs, without Incarnate powers, with only it's own powers and SOs, and perhaps, just perhaps with pool powers (but they cant be factored in the set balance design, or at least have never been in the past.)
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| That was done with a Claws/Regen scrapper. If a scrapper can pull something like that off with Regen, what would a tank be able to do with 1,000 more HP and similar ability to leverage KD for mitigation? |
The power can often bring more mitigation than our preservation set may bring.
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It's not like tanks don't have better mitigation tools than shockwave in their primaries. Fault, Ice Patch, and Foot Stomp can all be hugely effective at cutting incoming damage. And the guy who posted the claws Regen scrapper doing a RWZ*2 also did it with just using followup and spin on auto... With no alpha slot. Granted you can't see the IO bonuses on the build, but you can build to take an alpha with MOG, and Darkest night is almost as good for Regen as shadow meld. |
Originally Posted by Starsman
I have heard this as a big rule of the challenge: Usage of Shockwave is cheating. :P
The power can often bring more mitigation than our preservation set may bring. |
It won't be easy mode by any means, but the tools are there to get the job done. The problem is the set relies on player skill to keep you alive more than any other set.
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Hey I didnt make the rules!! |
Originally Posted by Death_Adder
It's not like tanks don't have better mitigation tools than shockwave in their primaries. Fault, Ice Patch, and Foot Stomp can all be hugely effective at cutting incoming damage. And the guy who posted the claws Regen scrapper doing a RWZ*2 also did it with just using followup and spin on auto... With no alpha slot. Granted you can't see the IO bonuses on the build, but you can build to take an alpha with MOG, and Darkest night is almost as good for Regen as shadow meld.
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BUT there is also the fact that tankers may be running Energy Melee, Fiery Melee or Dark Melee. None of those have anything near the level of mitigation Shockwave provides and not familiar enough with Elec Melee, Street Justice or Kinetic Melee to say if any have anything on those lines.
You cant say a set is good for tankers with a conditional requirement to specific primaries. Even a bigger No No is to say a specific Epic pool is required.
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| It won't be easy mode by any means, but the tools are there to get the job done. The problem is the set relies on player skill to keep you alive more than any other set. |
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So those fire tanks, elec tanks, and dark tanks with capped defense and no DDR are wasting their inf, right? |
Originally Posted by Wintry
On a sidenote even with more def you'll find yourself stabbed in the back on a regular basis by lack of DDR. And no, adding DDR isn't an option either, because DDR is only for sets that also actually get defense to begin with. |
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| Finally, I don't think the devs would be too keen on the idea of placing another primary set on the menu under tankers at character creation, including above the set's description in big red lettering: "WARNING: This will utterly suck unless you extend it with a system that errr... you sort of need to be VIP for or have a truckload of Paragon Rewards for." |
Or on a dark saying "your heal will crash your endurance bar, and that hellion buckshot will knock you on your ***"
Or in fire saying "arachnos minions will immob you and kill you from range while you can't hit them"
Or in invuln saying "psi damage will cut your genitals off"
Without IO investment, all of the above are true (ok, the genitals might be an exaggeration) for those sets, and regen is no different. In fact, regen has one of the BEST performances on SOs only, and it's the addition of IOs that make it slightly drop in the list.
On another note not specifically replying to the quoted material, why is it that regen is apparently balanced enough with every other set to be put on a scrapper, brute, or stalker(where it is the most underperforming) but is apparently too weak for a tanker? As far as 1-50 non IO'd play is concerned, I don't see an issue. Regen's real "godmode" power is IH, and you would get it on a tank at 18. Before that level, I don't see how a self heal, and 350% regen on top of 1100 extra hp above basse aren't going to be enough to keep you alive. And DP is great as both a pre battle power and during battle power, which is where timing and skill come into play. Let's also keep in mind that resilience's new resists wouldn't be the same numbers on a tank, just the same scale. Which, on a tank would put them at about 20% resist to all (including psi and toxic), and for a single passive power that comes at lvl 12, that's not bad.
***Edited completely because build link wasn't working and I fixed the build very fast after posting.***
Ok, so here is an incomplete build (because mid's doesn't have tank regen) that has capped s/l/e/n defense. HPT is used as a set holder for what resilience would have.
I originally had just a link, but it wasn't working, so I'll just post this big ol mess.
Hero Plan by Mids' Hero Designer 1.952
http://www.cohplanner.com/
Click this DataLink to open the build!
Level 50 Magic Tanker
Primary Power Set: Willpower
Secondary Power Set: Martial Arts
Power Pool: Leaping
Power Pool: Leadership
Power Pool: Fighting
Ancillary Pool: Pyre Mastery
Hero Profile:
Level 1: [Empty]
Level 1: Thunder Kick -- KntkC'bat-Acc/Dmg(A), KntkC'bat-Dmg/EndRdx(3), KntkC'bat-Dmg/Rchg(3), KntkC'bat-Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(5)
Level 2: Storm Kick -- KntkC'bat-Acc/Dmg(A), KntkC'bat-Dmg/EndRdx(7), KntkC'bat-Dmg/Rchg(17), KntkC'bat-Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(19)
Level 4: [Empty]
Level 6: Combat Jumping -- DefBuff-I(A)
Level 8: Maneuvers -- DefBuff-I(A), DefBuff-I(9), DefBuff-I(9)
Level 10: Warrior's Provocation -- Mocking-Taunt(A), Mocking-Taunt/Rchg(11), Mocking-Taunt/Rchg/Rng(11), Mocking-Acc/Rchg(13), Mocking-Taunt/Rng(13), Mocking-Rchg(23)
Level 12: [Empty]
Level 14: Tough -- RctvArm-ResDam/EndRdx(A), RctvArm-ResDam/Rchg(15), RctvArm-ResDam/EndRdx/Rchg(15), RctvArm-ResDam(17)
Level 16: Weave -- DefBuff-I(A), DefBuff-I(19), DefBuff-I(21)
Level 18: [Empty]
Level 20: Focus Chi -- Rec'dRet-ToHit(A), Rec'dRet-ToHit/Rchg(21)
Level 22: [Empty]
Level 24: [Empty]
Level 26: [Empty]
Level 28: [Empty]
Level 30: [Empty]
Level 32: Spring Attack -- Erad-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(A), Erad-Acc/Rchg(33), Erad-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(33), C'ngBlow-Acc/Dmg(33), C'ngBlow-Dmg/Rchg(34), C'ngBlow-Dmg/EndRdx(34)
Level 35: Dragon's Tail -- Erad-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(A), Erad-Acc/Rchg(36), Erad-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(36), C'ngBlow-Acc/Dmg(36), C'ngBlow-Dmg/EndRdx(37), C'ngBlow-Dmg/Rchg(37)
Level 38: Eagles Claw -- KntkC'bat-Acc/Dmg(A), KntkC'bat-Dmg/EndRdx(39), KntkC'bat-Dmg/Rchg(39), KntkC'bat-Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(39)
Level 41: Ring of Fire -- Thundr-Acc/Dmg(A), Thundr-Dmg/EndRdx(42), Thundr-Dmg/Rchg(42), Thundr-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(42), Thundr-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(43), Thundr-Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(43)
Level 44: High Pain Tolerance -- RctvArm-ResDam/EndRdx(A), RctvArm-ResDam/Rchg(45), RctvArm-ResDam/EndRdx/Rchg(45), RctvArm-ResDam(45), S'fstPrt-ResDam/Def+(46)
Level 47: Fire Blast -- Thundr-Acc/Dmg(A), Thundr-Dmg/EndRdx(48), Thundr-Dmg/Rchg(48), Thundr-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(48), Thundr-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(50), Thundr-Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(50)
Level 49: [Empty]
------------
Level 2: Swift -- Empty(A)
Level 2: Health -- Empty(A)
Level 2: Hurdle -- Empty(A)
Level 2: Stamina -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Brawl -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Gauntlet
Level 1: Sprint -- Empty(A)
Level 2: Rest -- Empty(A)
Level 4: Ninja Run
Code:
| Copy & Paste this data into Mids' Hero Designer to view the build | |-------------------------------------------------------------------| |MxDz;1115;507;1014;HEX;| |78DA7593DF6E124114C66761116940A018AC89160B2DFD878B44EFB5696B35E9266| |84DBC246B9DC2D8E94276372A973E87FFFB00BE8EF1DE2B63D53758CFEEF924C689| |936C7ECC37E7CC77F69CC57DB953FCB4F7EAB6B08ADBDA0BC3C123CF3F9641CEF58| |6EA50242B4FCF02AB831D7924FD503A8F95D693F10B195CC6812BB5948EEB0591F2| |F4602B884251EC8FC7DAD997DE44F9C3F29FCD531984233529A5FBBB6A388AE8B49| |AEEEEFBCF55A89E28ADA2697577A20E9DFE349003D70B23194C17A88C157AE264DD| |A90BAC382BFA84A62D320FC0874CFB80B945B196C5B11662CF21B682D879C4A697D| |7E98D739C20728B849E2DAAA4E559CBE4A19DFF87DB6454E0A272855126D5E614F8| |8C593C0635B37EC24C8DB3645242A5A545FAB16A8B0B0D70895969326D8A2DA3A03| |20A98072F82E9A5BB54558DABB26AAFC9AD46016F98F1FF9645490DBC4AE38C82AF| |DAE2DA37F03BA8D965C9074F987B94DB446E13B92DE4B690DB42EE32729671C7BD3| |A0F39E9C00A66D5C6ACDA98551BB3FA9C15620D3E6B6F397FFD1DF81EFCC0DCF808| |9E32BFD29C36B97BF6263ADD41A73BE874079DBE7EC94A6BFE427E0EFC1CF875E1D| |7855F177E3DF8F54EFF9AC4D9DCEC43145622889F86F2C3507E19CA157BF6F1F3DF| |41AC270AC7C41BC6E90D43E919CA4D43B96528FB86D2B7613BABAD501122CB4AFC1| |B128EEFF8| |-------------------------------------------------------------------|
If they were to make instant healing a toggle for tankers only and get rid of the revive power and replace it with a power like rise to the challenge for tankers only, the set would be very good for a tank I believe. So your power list would look something like this.
1.) Fast Healing
2.) Reconstruction
3.) Quick Recovery
4.) Dull Pain
5.) Integration
6.) Resilience
7.) Instant Healing (available as a toggle for tankers only)
8.) Rise to the Challenge or....
8.) Power Sink (This power drains health from enemies and returns it to you)
9.) Moment of Glory
If you were to have a power like power sink where instead of draining endurance and returning it to you, it would drain health and return it to you affecting up to 10 foes, that would be very cool I think
If it looked like that, I would be very interested in that.
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So your power sink would be like a dark regeneration clone? I think with DP and recon, it has enough heals. Making IH a toggle would likely make them reduce it's effectiveness, and I don't think many people would like the idea of that. I personally think it's fine as is if it was a direct port. The higher scale on resilience and the higher HP would make it fine in my book.
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Originally Posted by Mint
If they were to make instant healing a toggle for tankers only and get rid of the revive power and replace it with a power like rise to the challenge for tankers only, the set would be very good for a tank I believe. So your power list would look something like this.
1.) Fast Healing 2.) Reconstruction 3.) Quick Recovery 4.) Dull Pain 5.) Integration 6.) Resilience 7.) Instant Healing (available as a toggle for tankers only) 8.) Rise to the Challenge or.... 8.) Power Sink (This power drains health from enemies and returns it to you) 9.) Moment of Glory If you were to have a power like power sink where instead of draining endurance and returning it to you, it would drain health and return it to you affecting up to 10 foes, that would be very cool I think If it looked like that, I would be very interested in that. |
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Had an idea. Since Mid's wont give you regen as an option on Mid's, just make a scrapper version. Add in tank mods on weave/cj/maneuvers, and add in the 10% defense from Storm Kick, and you get a rough draft build for a defense capped regen tank. Add in the higher resists that a tank would get, and it's sitting at around 43 s/l resists and 20% to everything else. Add in a fast heal, a +HP power, and lots of regen, you get the definition of layered defenses. And of course, when defense debuffs come into play, you pop MoG and by the time it wears off, so have the debuffs.|
Originally Posted by Pyro_Master_NA
***Edited completely because build link wasn't working and I fixed the build very fast after posting.***
Ok, so here is an incomplete build (because mid's doesn't have tank regen) that has capped s/l/e/n defense. HPT is used as a set holder for what resilience would have. I originally had just a link, but it wasn't working, so I'll just post this big ol mess. Hero Plan by Mids' Hero Designer 1.952 http://www.cohplanner.com/ Click this DataLink to open the build! Level 50 Magic Tanker Primary Power Set: Willpower Secondary Power Set: Martial Arts Power Pool: Leaping Power Pool: Leadership Power Pool: Fighting Ancillary Pool: Pyre Mastery Hero Profile: Level 1: [Empty] Level 1: Thunder Kick -- KntkC'bat-Acc/Dmg(A), KntkC'bat-Dmg/EndRdx(3), KntkC'bat-Dmg/Rchg(3), KntkC'bat-Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(5) Level 2: Storm Kick -- KntkC'bat-Acc/Dmg(A), KntkC'bat-Dmg/EndRdx(7), KntkC'bat-Dmg/Rchg(17), KntkC'bat-Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(19) Level 4: [Empty] Level 6: Combat Jumping -- DefBuff-I(A) Level 8: Maneuvers -- DefBuff-I(A), DefBuff-I(9), DefBuff-I(9) Level 10: Warrior's Provocation -- Mocking-Taunt(A), Mocking-Taunt/Rchg(11), Mocking-Taunt/Rchg/Rng(11), Mocking-Acc/Rchg(13), Mocking-Taunt/Rng(13), Mocking-Rchg(23) Level 12: [Empty] Level 14: Tough -- RctvArm-ResDam/EndRdx(A), RctvArm-ResDam/Rchg(15), RctvArm-ResDam/EndRdx/Rchg(15), RctvArm-ResDam(17) Level 16: Weave -- DefBuff-I(A), DefBuff-I(19), DefBuff-I(21) Level 18: [Empty] Level 20: Focus Chi -- Rec'dRet-ToHit(A), Rec'dRet-ToHit/Rchg(21) Level 22: [Empty] Level 24: [Empty] Level 26: [Empty] Level 28: [Empty] Level 30: [Empty] Level 32: Spring Attack -- Erad-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(A), Erad-Acc/Rchg(33), Erad-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(33), C'ngBlow-Acc/Dmg(33), C'ngBlow-Dmg/Rchg(34), C'ngBlow-Dmg/EndRdx(34) Level 35: Dragon's Tail -- Erad-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(A), Erad-Acc/Rchg(36), Erad-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(36), C'ngBlow-Acc/Dmg(36), C'ngBlow-Dmg/EndRdx(37), C'ngBlow-Dmg/Rchg(37) Level 38: Eagles Claw -- KntkC'bat-Acc/Dmg(A), KntkC'bat-Dmg/EndRdx(39), KntkC'bat-Dmg/Rchg(39), KntkC'bat-Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(39) Level 41: Ring of Fire -- Thundr-Acc/Dmg(A), Thundr-Dmg/EndRdx(42), Thundr-Dmg/Rchg(42), Thundr-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(42), Thundr-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(43), Thundr-Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(43) Level 44: High Pain Tolerance -- RctvArm-ResDam/EndRdx(A), RctvArm-ResDam/Rchg(45), RctvArm-ResDam/EndRdx/Rchg(45), RctvArm-ResDam(45), S'fstPrt-ResDam/Def+(46) Level 47: Fire Blast -- Thundr-Acc/Dmg(A), Thundr-Dmg/EndRdx(48), Thundr-Dmg/Rchg(48), Thundr-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(48), Thundr-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(50), Thundr-Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(50) Level 49: [Empty] ------------ Level 2: Swift -- Empty(A) Level 2: Health -- Empty(A) Level 2: Hurdle -- Empty(A) Level 2: Stamina -- Empty(A) Level 1: Brawl -- Empty(A) Level 1: Gauntlet Level 1: Sprint -- Empty(A) Level 2: Rest -- Empty(A) Level 4: Ninja Run Code:
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TL;DR|
Originally Posted by ClawsandEffect
I think you're drastically underestimating the survivability of a well-played regen.
If it were as bad as you say, why do the people who know the numbers inside and out still like the set, seeing as how you're basically saying the only thing it's good at is dying? If a Regen scrapper can pull off a double RWZ Challenge, then I think a well played Regen tank will be just fine. If you're not familiar with what an RWZ Challenge is: You go into RWZ, find a spawn of level 54 Rikti that includes a minimum of 3 bosses and engage it, without losing agro at any time, and with no inspirations or temp powers. The spawns are usually 10-12 enemies, and always contain at least one level 54 Mesmerist. Now double that to 20 enemies, with 6 bosses. That was done with a Claws/Regen scrapper. If a scrapper can pull something like that off with Regen, what would a tank be able to do with 1,000 more HP and similar ability to leverage KD for mitigation? (Because a character's survivability includes BOTH sets, not just one) So, if you're convinced that the only thing Regen is any good at is dying, well......you're wrong. My own personal Regen scrapper has outlived just about any powerset you can think of in his 6 year career at various times. I've outlived Invulns and Stone tanks. I've outlived SRs. I've outlived Katana/Willpowers. How did I do that? Because I have a clue what I;m doing with the set and don't expect my secondary to sit there and passively do everything for me. If you play a Regen like a Willpower, of course it's going to die. Play your Regen like a REGEN and you'd be very surprised at some of the things you can pull off. |
lol I am joking.
I think Wintry is correct in saying about context.
We all have expectations of a Tanker, on SOs. Any plonk can be buffed to tank mage, blasters can etc. But you have to consider with next to no def leveling up that you are going to be the main target, every attack, every debuff. Some people don't rate defense sets at all because they dont have resists, and regen is all about reacting and putting health back, not the best thing, but ya know the secondary for tankers can make a difference. Knockout blow has made a difference in my tanks 40s, shockwave has made a difference on my Claws/SR scrapper. My claws/sr tanked the entirety of an STF for nobody else but Scrappers, first try, almost Mo'd it. Yonks ago before the trick of standing on the ledge taunting Lord Recluse became known let alone popular. Don't think I don't know what scrappers can do for a team without a single buffer or a debuffer about. I can not care which tank I am on when I can not care which scrapper I am on. Leveling up, against every different kind of faction a Regen Tanker is going to hope to survive the first few secs at times and then maybe hope that all the debuffs don't get him down. I think they made willpower because Regen leveling up just wouldn't do things as well.
Some players can bring out the best in sets just as some can bring out the worst. On average with the average expectation of a Tanker and this can differ depending on whether you pug or not and so on but I see a lot of planting.
Edit: FWIW as someone with a 50 Regen Scrapper and a 50 SR Scrapper, SR is definitely a better choice to port to tanks.
He will honor his words; he will definitely carry out his actions. What he promises he will fulfill. He does not care about his bodily self, putting his life and death aside to come forward for another's troubled besiegement. He does not boast about his ability, or shamelessly extol his own virtues. - Sima Qian.
Revive does need work. It needs an untouchable time so you can retoggle and not just get instaganked as soon as you revive. I would also like it if it gave you an adrenaline boost effect.
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It's all very nice but a Regen Tanker has to be able to tank without the need for powerpools or a specific type of defender in team. |
Originally Posted by Pyro_Master_NA
Had an idea.
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Take any secondary and a Regen should find adequate usefulness.
Bad enough in 2005 when Invulns were expected to have fight pool, like fight pool was part of the set, as if it was inconceivable to tank without it and all that was expected of them was to take an alpha basically before the fire controller aoe immobed the room so everything was equispaced by 10ft so an Invuln could only get 4 in its aura. A possibly completely defenseless, low resisting Regen is not gonna live up to the same expectations without the right support.
He will honor his words; he will definitely carry out his actions. What he promises he will fulfill. He does not care about his bodily self, putting his life and death aside to come forward for another's troubled besiegement. He does not boast about his ability, or shamelessly extol his own virtues. - Sima Qian.
More context failures.
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Cool, you found a detail that if you cut it out from enough of its context allows you to ask a rather pointless question.|
Originally Posted by Pyro_Master_NA
So those fire tanks, elec tanks, and dark tanks with capped defense and no DDR are wasting their inf, right?
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Survivability 101: Resistance in itself is worthless. Defense in itself is worthless. DDR in itself is worthless. HP in itself is worthless. Combine several and you might eventually reach a point where you don't get squashed by everything. This is the basic principle of creating a tank.
Fire has resists and a heal. Granted, it's still more on the squishy side than most things but then again it does at least have some tradeoff. Fire's relatively mediocre survivability is accompanied by greater offensive capabilities which indirectly function as a third survibility increasing factor, because the shorter the mobs live, the shorter they need to be tanked.
So essentially fire gets (1) some resists, (2) healing and (3) defense in offense from its primary.
Elec gets (1) good resists and (2) healing.
Dark gets (1) resists and (2) healing.
Regen gets nada, dreams, zip, (1) healing, nothing, no money back guarantee.
And that is why regen works on a scrapper and is inherent crappy on a tanker. Sure you can pull of casinotanking as I also pointed out in the last post, but you cannot get it actually reliable and if there's one thing a tanker should be able to do better than other ATs its tanking reliably. Otherwise a blaster with presence and a tray full of Robusts and Phenomenal Lucks will do just fine too.
Lastly all of the above is completely irrelevant.
I'm guessing you have a fire, elec, dark or one of each and felt the need to defend your powerset's pride, but I never suggested what you implied I did and - again - all these IO things you drag here are a non-factor for this discussion in any relevant form.
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Originally Posted by Pyro_Master_NA
Or big red warning label for stone saying "you will be squishy and enduranceless until lvl 32, at which point you will deal next to no damage".
Or on a dark saying "your heal will crash your endurance bar, and that hellion buckshot will knock you on your ***" Or in fire saying "arachnos minions will immob you and kill you from range while you can't hit them" Or in invuln saying "psi damage will cut your genitals off" Without IO investment, all of the above are true (ok, the genitals might be an exaggeration) for those sets, and regen is no different. In fact, regen has one of the BEST performances on SOs only, and it's the addition of IOs that make it slightly drop in the list. |
Psi is a rope bridge, but regen explodes as you hit the ignition.
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Originally Posted by Pyro_Master_NA
On another note not specifically replying to the quoted material, why is it that regen is apparently balanced enough with every other set to be put on a scrapper, brute, or stalker(where it is the most underperforming) but is apparently too weak for a tanker?
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And when a scrapper thinks he is tanking he's still doing a comparatively lousy job at it.
For brutes it depends on how they play, but if it's a brute trying to completely fill in the role of the team's dedicated tanker and he's doing a good job at it regen sucks pretty bad for him too.
...
Yeah... are your thoughts on that last sentence starting to flow yet, Pyro?
Ok...
...
Yeah! Hold it right there. Freeze...
Now toss the IOs outta your head, before your next post ends up irrelevant to the proliferation question again.
Continue.
Duo MoITF - 26:06 | Duo MoKahn - 25:50 | Duo MoLGTF - 29:34 |
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Compared to, say, Resist Elements?|
Originally Posted by Starsman
We can agree it was the worst passive in the game, right?
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As to Regen tanks, the old school requirement on tankers is that starting around the early twenties, they have to be capable of tanking for a team of four on standard difficulty without significant ally assistance when slotted with SOs. If they can't for the vast majority of standard content, there's a potential balance issue.
As a very rough estimate, take a regen scrapper, strip it down to SOs, pop two small sturdies, and go run 0x4. That's the *minimum* difficulty I believe a regen tanker is supposed to be able to handle (there's some fudged numbers there: an actual team would kill faster than you will solo, but a regen tanker would be somewhat more resilient than that with higher health and slightly higher resilience numbers: that's my best guess on estimating the relative difficulty).
Personally, I think its very borderline for the average player. If Dull Pain's +health was fully enhanceable, I'd say go for it and see what happens in beta. But with the set in its current state, I don't think it scales well enough for tankers.
[Guide to Defense] [Scrapper Secondaries Comparison] [Archetype Popularity Analysis]
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Okay, so now it's Regen with no pool powers, such as Tough or Weave? And without taking secondaries into consideration? How does that have any bearing on how the game is actually played? I don't know about you, but I have never seen a tank try and tank something by just standing there getting beat on.
When you go to compare a powerset, you need to take into account ALL powers available to that character. If it is available to a free player, it counts. (and last I checked, power pools were available to free players)
I did the math of what a Regen tank would look like, with reasonable pool power usage. On ONLY SOs. No IOs of any kind went into the calculations. Accolades were calculated in because they are available to free players and VIPs alike.
42.9% S/L resistance (between Resilience and Tough)
19.4% E/N/F/C resistance (that's more resistance to those types than Willpower gets)
A 900 HP heal every 30 seconds.
Better than 50% uptime on Dull Pain, which cranks your max HP to 3,354 when active, it also heals 75% of your HP back.
569% passive regeneration from Fast Healing, Health, and Integration.(607% if you take Physical Perfection)
The ability to reach 1600% regeneration when Instant Healing is activated.
14.8% defense to all, between Combat Jumping, Weave, and Maneuvers.
90% resistance to all but Psi, and WELL beyond soft-capped defense, available every 2 minutes for 15 seconds at a time. (On most teams that are running nothing but SOs, an average fight will take about a minute, so you can use MoG every other spawn or so and soak the alpha)
And ALL of that is on SOs, and achievable by level 33.
You can do even better when you add IOs into the mix, as Pyro Master proved with his build. He used Martial Arts because Storm Kick has a 10% defense boost attached to it. That means that with a relatively inexpensive build you can achieve slightly better than 35% defense to S/L/E/N, with ANY secondary.
You only need 55% global recharge and slotted Hasten to achieve perma-Dull Pain, at which point our theoretical Regen tank will be walking around with 3354 HP all the time. That equals out to healing around 100HP per second with passive Regen alone. Then you add any defense you managed to acquire (starting at 15% to all but Psi, you can go typed or positional if you want)
Any build that manages perma Dull Pain is going to have at least 25% defense, so only a quarter of the attacks fired at you will hit. Then that 25% of attacks will be resisted by at least 20% (40% if it's smashing or lethal). Anything that manages to move your HP bar will be healed back at a rate of 100HP per second, and you can heal back 900 HP every 30 seconds, or you can pump your regeneration up to ridiculous levels and get closer to 200 HP back per second (maybe more)
Regen won't be nearly as bad on a tank as you make it out to sound., even on an only moderately IOed character or on SOs.
Edit for clarification: That's what a Regen tank would look like at level 50, and the HP total with Dull Pain up is including accolades, which is a reasonable addition, as they aren't difficult to get and require nothing not accessible to everyone. If you start slotting IOs you'll hit the HP cap by accident from there while chasing defense or recharge.
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Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison See, it's gems like these that make me check Claws' post history every once in a while to make sure I haven't missed anything good lately. |
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Difference being: regen was not stacking that smash/lethal on top of anything, making it extremely weak. Invuln at least stacked it on top of something. Arguably still weak but not that bad.|
Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Compared to, say, Resist Elements?
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And I know its a "recent" change, but Resist elements also has slow resistance and has been doing 7.5 resist (10 for tanks) for a while. I think those things combined to a better overal power than the old Resilliance.
And yea, I know im now bringing power combinations... dont call me out on that because I still am being realistic. :P
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| Personally, I think its very borderline for the average player. If Dull Pain's +health was fully enhanceable, I'd say go for it and see what happens in beta. But with the set in its current state, I don't think it scales well enough for tankers. |
1. Add taunt to integration
2. Add recharge debuff resistance either to the set (as passives) or just to certain powers while in effect (MoG and/or IH) to about 60%(?)
I've been trying to get the second for a while now. I'll bring it up now and then, hoping maybe one of the devs will decide it sounds like a good idea.
I may have had something to do with the -regen resistance and boost to Resilience, but it's hard to say for sure. The final numbers on it look suspiciously close to my suggestion in the S&I forums a while back. Doesn't mean I have any pull or anything, and for all I know they were planning on doing it anyway and I just happened to guess really close.
(I know, I know, shut up and let me feel good about it damn it!
See, it's gems like these that make me check Claws' post history every once in a while to make sure I haven't missed anything good lately.