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Ooh level 33, I realize what the figures are but quite rightly that's not good enough to have that by level 33. Plenty of people expect to tank by 22 x amount of y amount factions at +x amount of levels at the latest. Pool powers are meant to be desireable not necessary. It will be last place.|
Originally Posted by ClawsandEffect
And ALL of that is on SOs, and achievable by level 33.
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It'll benefit from alphaing mobs, pulling mobs, +def powers particularly on last mob in each spawn before next, there is stuff to help it, it'll be close as Arcanaville mentions, but still in all likelihood last place.
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Damn... can Brutes/Scrappers/Stalkers* get this version too? *drool*|
Originally Posted by Calhou
I'd suggest something like this, were the set to be ported to tankers - keep the core, but add resistance and some neat tricks at the high end.
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Fast Healing: Upgraded to 50% resistance to -regeneration. A tanker, more than a scrapper or brute, really does not want their primary mitigation tool neutered. This makes it more resilient. Reconstruction: Upgraded to add 40% toxic resistance. A minor change, but lets Regen easily cap toxic without needing to stack it. Quick Recovery: Adds 100% resistance to fear and confuse. (Halving the duration of these effects.) Minor improvement, matches the power name. It's fairly boring as a Stamina clone. Dull Pain: Unchanged. It's already awesome on a tanker. Integration: Unchanged. The brute version with taunt, of course. Resilience: Adds ~26% resistance to all types except Smashing and Lethal, which remain at ~13%. Massive resistances for an auto power, but there's nothing to stack it with, so it should be fine. The S/L 'hole' can be covered by Tough for decent values across the board. Instant Healing: Adds 10000% resistance to -regeneration. When it's up, you're regenerating. That's that. Revive: Adds 5 seconds of untouchable, instantly recharges all other Regeneration powers. Five seconds to either eat inspirations and toggle up, or just to use Moment of Glory. Moment of Glory: Add three seconds of duration to tankers. (Since their higher resistance/defense values here are lost to caps.) Indirectly improved by the Revive change, making it available again even if it fails to save you. |
*Stalkers obviously dropping Taunt component from Integration, and pulling the Fear/Confuse Resistance from QR and putting it into Integration, since QR goes bye bye on Stalks.
At least the changes to Revive? *sparkly shiney hopeful eyes*
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Everyone here is is saying their opinion is that regen tanks wouldn't be tough enough without pool powers, or IOs, or outside buffs, what tank is? Nothing is tanking more than about +2x5 on SOs alone. And that's something my controller can handle once he got IOs thrown into the mix. People have said "Pool powers shouldn't be necessary," as well. Ok, your invuln tank won't be res capped to s/l then. And if they port it, my regen tank will have 3% short of your fire tank's s/l resists, on top of AV lvl regeneration and more HP.
To those of you who wouldn't play it, don't, but I sure as hell would pplay it, and I sure as hell would build a monster out of it.
Personally, I like the idea of Regen for Tankers, but it's hard to comment on its actual survivability without seeing its numbers for Tankers and any changes/additions the devs would make when porting it to a tanking AT.
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Quite literally if I made changes to Regen it would look alot like like Willpower..
I'll have a pop though later for something more recogniseable to a fan of Regen.
He will honor his words; he will definitely carry out his actions. What he promises he will fulfill. He does not care about his bodily self, putting his life and death aside to come forward for another's troubled besiegement. He does not boast about his ability, or shamelessly extol his own virtues. - Sima Qian.
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Oh come on, I used to get to level 10 set to +2, make the teams, power away, get a bit higher decide that I am the team at 22ish set to me x6 or x8 and power away solo.|
Originally Posted by Pyro_Master_NA
Nothing is tanking more than about +2x5 on SOs alone.
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I can tell ya now, right at 20+ to 25 that I only found the Banished Pantheon to be the pigs. All else was pretty a okay. Recently, I have been doing them with a Dark Armour and got to say drenched in so much -tohit it suffers, a Regen might heal where it wouldn't but the -rechg is probably gonna help take that down.
He will honor his words; he will definitely carry out his actions. What he promises he will fulfill. He does not care about his bodily self, putting his life and death aside to come forward for another's troubled besiegement. He does not boast about his ability, or shamelessly extol his own virtues. - Sima Qian.
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The biggest issue there (and mind you it would not have helped with the alpha tanking issues) is that RTTC is the power they should had turned Instant healing into, instead of nerfing it into a click.|
Originally Posted by New Dawn
Quite literally if I made changes to Regen it would look alot like like Willpower..
I'll have a pop though later for something more recogniseable to a fan of Regen. |
Now you cant go that path without making it, indeed, look like Willpower.
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It is a minimum level of balance for tankers to be able to take alphas without being forced to go into pool powers or use their secondaries.|
Originally Posted by ClawsandEffect
Okay, so now it's Regen with no pool powers, such as Tough or Weave? And without taking secondaries into consideration? How does that have any bearing on how the game is actually played?
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It does not mean that a set that cant pass that test would be impossible to tank with, considered the proper set combination, pool usage and IOs, but the set would be at a disadvantage compared to any tanker, and risk being considered a gimp set if you take the wrong offensive set or are not high enough to fit Tough/Weave and have them slotted by lvl 20.
Is it possible to build a current stat transfer regen to tank? Sure. But it would be the easiest tank to gimp in the hand of a non-VIP player.
Its just bad game design to consciously allow that.
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By my calculations I think you're going to run out of slots attempting that at level 33 with SOs. At level 33, you'll have 34 discretionary slots. The list above nominally requires three extra slots (assuming endurance reduction slotting, which is mandatory with this many toggles even with quick recovery) for maneuvers, tough, integration, and weave: that's 12. You need two additional slots for fast healing, combat jumping (assuming you skimp endred here), resilience, and MoG (assuming you don't slot for resistance). That's 8. You'll need five slots each for Dull Pain and Reconstruction. That's 10. That's 30 of your 34 discretionary slots. You need some for Instant Healing. If you're slotting it for *both* healing and recharge, you will spend your last four there, still not fully slot recharge or healing (one or the other), and have no slots left to slot quick recovery, stamina, or any offensive powers.|
Originally Posted by ClawsandEffect
I did the math of what a Regen tank would look like, with reasonable pool power usage. On ONLY SOs. No IOs of any kind went into the calculations. Accolades were calculated in because they are available to free players and VIPs alike.
42.9% S/L resistance (between Resilience and Tough) 19.4% E/N/F/C resistance (that's more resistance to those types than Willpower gets) A 900 HP heal every 30 seconds. Better than 50% uptime on Dull Pain, which cranks your max HP to 3,354 when active, it also heals 75% of your HP back. 569% passive regeneration from Fast Healing, Health, and Integration.(607% if you take Physical Perfection) The ability to reach 1600% regeneration when Instant Healing is activated. 14.8% defense to all, between Combat Jumping, Weave, and Maneuvers. 90% resistance to all but Psi, and WELL beyond soft-capped defense, available every 2 minutes for 15 seconds at a time. (On most teams that are running nothing but SOs, an average fight will take about a minute, so you can use MoG every other spawn or so and soak the alpha) And ALL of that is on SOs, and achievable by level 33. |
So actually, that's not possible at 33. The earliest its possible is actually 34, and even then its only mathematically possible, and unlikely to be possible in any playable build.
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| You only need 55% global recharge and slotted Hasten to achieve perma-Dull Pain, at which point our theoretical Regen tank will be walking around with 3354 HP all the time. That equals out to healing around 100HP per second with passive Regen alone. |
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| Any build that manages perma Dull Pain is going to have at least 25% defense |
If you're saying its *possible* to build a hypothetical regen tanker that is pretty strong, there's no argument there. But that's immaterial: when we ask if blasters are too strong or too weak, we don't paper-calculate what the absolute best strongest blaster is. We don't look at range-capped blasters with acrobatics and say they are fine. We look at blaster performance in the actual game and when they drop dead too often we say there's something wrong. Are players going to play regen tankers by loading them up with power pools and have totally unslotted attacks for most of their existence to get to performance my SR scrapper can get with just a few inventions and aid self?
Probably not. And when I consider what a likely regen tanker is going to look like at level 15, at level 25, and level 35, I find its performance to be not so good.
I think its amusing that when I say Regen is actually one of the better scrapper secondaries when leveling up, a bunch of people are there to say "oh yeah" and when I say I don't think it scales strongly enough to translate into a good tanker set I get a completely different group of people to say "oh yeah." Because the thing is Regeneration doesn't scale like defense and resistance do. It linearly scales with health, and tankers don't have better regeneration modifiers. So its mathematically impossible for Regeneration to be equally as good as a tanker set and a scrapper set. Its either an overpowered scrapper set or will be an underperforming tanker set, or its somewhere in the middle of being a really good scrapper set that will translate into a relatively not so good tanker set. It cannot be just right in both cases, because defense and resistance increase with tanker modifiers while regeneration and healing doesn't, and +health as a scale-invariant change benefits everyone equally.
Everyone who thinks it would be a great tanker set implicitly thinks it is an astronomically overpowered scrapper set. Everyone who thinks its a perfectly fine scrapper set implicitly thinks it would be a terrible tanker set. Everyone who explicitly thinks its fine for both doesn't understand how regeneration works.
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That is essentially what I'm saying, yes. But I'm basing it off of common sense. How frequently do you see tanker builds, of ANY set, that DON'T make use of pool powers and at least moderate IO slotting to increase their effectiveness? |
Originally Posted by Arcanaville
If you're saying its *possible* to build a hypothetical regen tanker that is pretty strong, there's no argument there.
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Do you see Fiery Aura tankers that refuse to use pool powers or IOs at all and tank just fine? I don't. Fiery Aura needs Acrobatics to function as a tank, at bare minimum. Tanking without KB protection is juts not feasible. That's an example of a set that absolutely requires a pool power for basic functionality.
How is Regen needing Tough and Weave to achieve enough survivability to serve the same function any different? It requires the same number of power choices, and not a whole lot more slotting.
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But that's immaterial: when we ask if blasters are too strong or too weak, we don't paper-calculate what the absolute best strongest blaster is. We don't look at range-capped blasters with acrobatics and say they are fine. We look at blaster performance in the actual game and when they drop dead too often we say there's something wrong. Are players going to play regen tankers by loading them up with power pools and have totally unslotted attacks for most of their existence to get to performance my SR scrapper can get with just a few inventions and aid self? Probably not. And when I consider what a likely regen tanker is going to look like at level 15, at level 25, and level 35, I find its performance to be not so good. |
Fiery Aura is still the best comparison there. It sacrifices survivability for more damage, but that kind of means your secondary powers are pretty important. If you look at Fiery Aura and subtract it's ability to deal damage (which is what you're doing when you ignore secondaries), then the only advantage it has over Regen is higher resistance. Regen has the advantage of a +HP power and much higher passive regeneration (which is at levels mathematically impossible for a FA to reach with just FH, Health and Integration). If you look at JUST the Primary set and ignore everything else, FA and Regen would basically be a wash in terms of survivability. Yet FA is considered a viable tanker set and Regen would not be?
SR crumbles in the face of large to-hit buffs, because it has nothing but defense to rely on.
Invuln turns into tissue paper when you pit it against Psi damage. And it's not all that great against exotic damage types either.
Willpower is nearly as vulnerable to burst damage as Regen and lacks any kind of self heal to use when it takes a few hard hits in a row.
Stone Armor can't defeat a simple flight of stairs when it's in Granite form, unless you take teleport.
Dark Armor has several problems when you subtract pool powers and IOs. It needs Acrobatics as well if you don't use IOs, and it has endurance consumption problems if you use all the tools available to it.
In terms of how well rounded they are, Shield Defense and Electric Armor are in the best shape.
Every tanker set has issues that people have been using pool powers and IOs to circumvent for years now. We've been doing it for so long we barely register the problems anymore, because the means to avoid them are common knowledge.
And now when the idea of a Regen tank is brought up we suddenly ignore the fact that tanks almost always shore up their weaknesses with pool powers and IOs, when they've been doing it for years?
Start playing some other tank sets with zero IOs or pool powers and tell me how it works out.
(No, seriously. I want to see how the "good" tank sets fare when you don't allow them to shore up any weaknesses they may have with things from outside their primary)
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Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison See, it's gems like these that make me check Claws' post history every once in a while to make sure I haven't missed anything good lately. |
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What I said was that I thought your numbers, which required essentially taking a boat load of power pool powers and burn every single slot and then some on defense was unrealistic. When I say taking a gigaton of power pools is unrealistic, that does not mean I am saying the opposite, that what people do is take *no* power pool powers. When I say something is unrealistic, what I mean is that thing is unrealistic. I do not mean the exact opposite equally extreme situation is more likely.|
Originally Posted by ClawsandEffect
That is essentially what I'm saying, yes. But I'm basing it off of common sense. How frequently do you see tanker builds, of ANY set, that DON'T make use of pool powers and at least moderate IO slotting to increase their effectiveness?
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| If your baseline is how well a tanker set works when you use nothing but the primary set, with no pool powers, and no secondary powers for mitigation, then a lot of tank sets have issues. |
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| Fiery Aura is still the best comparison there. It sacrifices survivability for more damage, but that kind of means your secondary powers are pretty important. If you look at Fiery Aura and subtract it's ability to deal damage (which is what you're doing when you ignore secondaries), then the only advantage it has over Regen is higher resistance. Regen has the advantage of a +HP power and much higher passive regeneration (which is at levels mathematically impossible for a FA to reach with just FH, Health and Integration). If you look at JUST the Primary set and ignore everything else, FA and Regen would basically be a wash in terms of survivability. Yet FA is considered a viable tanker set and Regen would not be? |
In the worst case reasonable scenario, a Regen tanker without perma Dull Pain would experience significant stretches of having lower survivability than a Fire tanker. And that factors into my judgment that Regen would need to be adjusted to be ported to tankers. Fiery Aura's current strength is higher than it used to be because Healing Flames was buffed. The implication is that Fiery Aura prior to the buff was canonically underperforming.
Fiery Aura ought to be outperformed by all tanker sets that do not make the same trade it does trading mitigation for offense. A hypothetical tanker regen would not really qualify for making that trade. Therefore, Regen should be clearly and unequivocally stronger than Fiery Aura. But its barely stronger on average outside of Instant Healing (which has low uptime) and during Dull Pain downtimes its performance can actually drop lower than Fiery Aura. Its borderline, but I believe that dip makes it impossible to state that Regen would *unequivocally* outperform Fiery Aura in the general case, within the context of sustained tanking.
Which is why I say that while it would not take an astronomical buff to make regeneration appropriate for tankers, in its current state it is simply too far over the line in the wrong direction.
Pool powers are irrelevant to this point, because Fiery Aura and Regeneration benefit roughly equally from power pool mitigation powers. If anything, Fiery Aura benefits more due to having higher smash/lethal resistances which would stack with tough. Neither have any defense to stack meaningfully with pool defenses.
The one area you might think would benefit Regen is +recharge, and specifically Hasten. But that's not true: Fiery Aura and Regen are remarkably similar in terms of non-health recovery mitigation. The difference comes down mostly to their differences in health recovery. Regen's health recovery comes part from regeneration and part from heals. Fiery Aura comes almost all from heals. FA's health recovery thus benefits from recharge more than Regeneration's does. The added mitigation Regen gets from closing the Dull Pain gap is not enough to compensate. You add +100% recharge to both (i.e. Hasten and global recharge) and the 12% edge Regen has on Fiery Aura on average vanishes: the two essentially equalize.
But that equality comes with the caveat that Fiery Aura traded down to that level to get better offense, while Regen starts there and gets nothing in return.
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Say hello to MoG and IH. More recharge favours Regen more than Fiery Aura. Looking at one detail in a vacuum is not going to help build an argument.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
The one area you might think would benefit Regen is +recharge, and specifically Hasten. But that's not true: Fiery Aura and Regen are remarkably similar in terms of non-health recovery mitigation. The difference comes down mostly to their differences in health recovery. Regen's health recovery comes part from regeneration and part from heals. Fiery Aura comes almost all from heals. FA's health recovery thus benefits from recharge more than Regeneration's does. The added mitigation Regen gets from closing the Dull Pain gap is not enough to compensate. You add +100% recharge to both (i.e. Hasten and global recharge) and the 12% edge Regen has on Fiery Aura on average vanishes: the two essentially equalize.
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I'm still of the opinion that Perma Dull Pain on a Regen tank is a reasonable performance expectation.
We can't ignore the fact that IOs exist, doing so is silly. On SOs alone, I'm willing to concede that Regen as-is would need a couple buffs before being ported to tanks.
But when you start adding IOs to the equation, things change drastically. Pyro already proved that at least one secondary can softcap the most common defense types. I also suspect that Titan Weapons would be able to do similar with positional defense (a power similar to Parry, and lots of cones to slot Eradication in, for both ranged and AoE defense)
Expecting most tanker secondaries to be able to hit 40% defense with moderate IO slotting is not unreasonable in my opinion, and we've seen what Regen scrappers can do with large amounts of defense. (Mine is virtually unkillable when I'm buffed, and quite tough all by himself) Granted, Regen has no DDR, but neither do Electric, Fire, or Dark and they do great when you add defense.
42% S/L resistance isn't too bad, it's more than any non-melee AT can obtain, and would soften blows enough to prevent two-shotting by the most common damage types. (I would not recommend trying to tank Dr. Aeon with a Regen anything though, he hits HARD) Just under 20% resistance to everything else is on par with what Energy Aura reaches, and isn't too far under Invuln (who hit around 30% I believe), it is also more exotic resistance than Willpower gets.
Perma Dull Pain is easily achievable without making sever sacrifices elsewhere (why would you NOT slot a Regen for recharge anyway?), and with accolades and a few set bonuses a Regen tank could be walking around at tanker HP cap at all times. And the HPset bonuses are usually found in the sets that you want to slot for defense and recharge anyway, so it's not like you're making sacrifices to get them.
Basically, the two things most commonly added with IOs would take a Regen tank from mediocre to awesome. Good defense, coupled with a little bit of resistance and MASSIVE healing potential? Yes please.
I strongly suspect that if tanks got Regen, a moderate level of IO slotting would put it in a position of surviving things that would kill other tanks dead (and conversely being killed by things other tanks would survive).
Edit: Bunny makes a good point as well. If you're going to compare FA and Regen directly, you can't ignore the presence of MoG. FA has nothing that even comes close to adding that much mitigation, even if it is only for 15 seconds.
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Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison See, it's gems like these that make me check Claws' post history every once in a while to make sure I haven't missed anything good lately. |
see below
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Proof of 12% required here.|
Originally Posted by Arcanaville
In fact, numerically speaking a Regen tanker would be about 12% stronger under SO slotting conditions, excluding instant healing. However, that performance would oscillate up and down as Dull Pain went up and down, and ditto Instant Healing: its uptime means while you can calculate an average, in actual play a regen tanker would sometimes be far higher than the average, and most of the time be far lower than that average.
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What situation (length of time to survive required, depreciating incoming damage, damage type vs defence, damage type vs resistance, debuffs experienced, overall DPS encountered) draws you to this statement?
Further to this a direct averaging of effects from things such as IH does not capture the fact that it is driven by the player and is a choice to activate. Hence a player will not activate it when it is unnecessary and will optimise it's choice for times it is needed. It would benefit the player more than the average unless the player pays no heed to timers and activates it the instant it is up (and further continually fights heedless of this).
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Fiery Aura ought to be outperformed by all tanker sets that do not make the same trade it does trading mitigation for offense. A hypothetical tanker regen would not really qualify for making that trade. Therefore, Regen should be clearly and unequivocally stronger than Fiery Aura. But its barely stronger on average outside of Instant Healing (which has low uptime) and during Dull Pain downtimes its performance can actually drop lower than Fiery Aura. Its borderline, but I believe that dip makes it impossible to state that Regen would *unequivocally* outperform Fiery Aura in the general case, within the context of sustained tanking.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Pool powers are irrelevant to this point, because Fiery Aura and Regeneration benefit roughly equally from power pool mitigation powers. If anything, Fiery Aura benefits more due to having higher smash/lethal resistances which would stack with tough. Neither have any defense to stack meaningfully with pool defenses.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
The one area you might think would benefit Regen is +recharge, and specifically Hasten. But that's not true: Fiery Aura and Regen are remarkably similar in terms of non-health recovery mitigation. The difference comes down mostly to their differences in health recovery. Regen's health recovery comes part from regeneration and part from heals. Fiery Aura comes almost all from heals. FA's health recovery thus benefits from recharge more than Regeneration's does. The added mitigation Regen gets from closing the Dull Pain gap is not enough to compensate. You add +100% recharge to both (i.e. Hasten and global recharge) and the 12% edge Regen has on Fiery Aura on average vanishes: the two essentially equalize.
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You add 25% resist to 0% resist totalling 25%, and you live 1/3 longer, it takes 134 damage to kill your 100 hitpoints, where before it took 100 damage to do so.
You add 25% resist to 50% resist and you live 2x longer, it takes 400 damage to kill your 100 hitpoints, where before it took 200 damage to do so.
Same 25% resist, but a marked difference the difference it makes.
And yes, Regeneration, +Health, and Resistance and Defense all interact in interesting ways. To take all the relevant parts together, it would look something like:
( HP per second from Heals and Regeneration ) x ( 100% / Resist ) x ( 100% / ( Effective_Defense* / (Expected_Softcap + 5)) = Indefinitely_survivable_incoming_DPS
* Your effective defense being your defense score, but capped if it exceeds Expected_Softcap for a given scenario
Indefinitely_survivable_DPS - Actual_Expected_DPS = Net_DPS_Suffered
If Net_DPS_Suffered > 0 then Seconds_to_live = Maximum_Health / Net_DPS_Suffered
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But you do raise an important question: Does additional recharge buffing benefit (IH + MOG + DP + Recon) more, or does it benefit Healing Flames more?|
But Teeto, do you really expect me to double check if your brackets and math all check out while I'm being pounded on by multiple damage types from multiple attack vectors, all while suffering a fluctuating level of defense debuffs and also while I myself reduce that input by killing enemies? "No Mr. Bond, I expect you to die." |
Since Recon and Healing Flames share the same base heal, but Healing Flames recharges in 40 seconds rather than Recon's 60, we can simplify this:
For every 2 Reconstructions, you get 3 Healing Flames. So that's 1 extra Healing Flames that Reconstruction cannot compete with. So it's 1 out of every 3 of your Healing Flames against Mog, IH, and DP in a no-holds barred cage match. 4 powers will enter: None will ever leave because none of them do any damage. Who comes out on top!?
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I've been down this road before, so just enjoy this example.
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For a simple case where it is 1 method of mitigation (resistance or defence), the formula for incoming damage is:|
Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Pool powers are irrelevant to this point, because Fiery Aura and Regeneration benefit roughly equally from power pool mitigation powers. If anything, Fiery Aura benefits more due to having higher smash/lethal resistances which would stack with tough. Neither have any defense to stack meaningfully with pool defenses.
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Received damage = total incoming damage * (1 - % mitigation) - regeneration rate.
Let's look at two examples, and then increase both by the same amount and see if Arcanaville is correct that having a higher initial resistance will prove more useful. These examples use a base of 3000 as the HP.
Person A : Resistance set with low regeneration rate.
Incoming damage = 200/second
Mitigation = 40%
Regeneration = 20/second
Received damage = 100/second
Time until defeat = 30 seconds
Person B : Regeneration set with low resistances.
Incoming damage = 200/second
Mitigation = 10%
Regeneration = 100/second
Recieved damage = 80/second
Time until defeat = 37.5 seconds
Now let's add additional resistance equally, as if they are taking some power pool or receiving outside buffs. Arcanaville says:
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| If anything, Fiery Aura benefits more due to having higher smash/lethal resistances which would stack with tough. |
Let's say for argument's sake the resistance is an additional 20%.
Person A : Resistance set with low regeneration rate.
Incoming damage = 200/second
Mitigation = 40%+20%
Regeneration = 20/second
Received damage = 60/second
Time until defeat = 50 seconds
Person B : Regeneration set with low resistances.
Incoming damage = 200/second
Mitigation = 10%+20%
Regeneration = 100/second
Recieved damage = 40/second
Time until defeat = 75 seconds
The gap has widened. The regeneration set now has experienced a 100% growth on time until defeat but the resistance set has experienced only a 67% growth. It doesn't benefit more in absolute terms either: the resistance set gains an additional 20 seconds of life while the regeneration set gains an additional 37.5 seconds of life. This is contrary to the common wisdom that stacking mitigation is always better.
It can be therefore seen that 'stacking mitigation' is not always better. It is conditional of the situation.
I'd say your example there is very questionable - as soon as the 'incoming damage' value increases, the resistance set will begin running away with the show, dropping poor regeneration in the dust.
Person A : Resistance set with low regeneration rate.
Incoming damage = 400/second
Mitigation = 40%
Regeneration = 20/second
Received damage = 220/second
Time until defeat = 13.7 seconds
Person B : Regeneration set with low resistances.
Incoming damage = 400/second
Mitigation = 10%
Regeneration = 100/second
Recieved damage = 260/second
Time until defeat = 11.5 seconds
Person A : Resistance set with low regeneration rate.
Incoming damage = 400/second
Mitigation = 40%+20%
Regeneration = 20/second
Received damage = 140/second
Time until defeat = 21.4 seconds, up by 56%.
Person B : Regeneration set with low resistances.
Incoming damage = 400/second
Mitigation = 10%+20%
Regeneration = 100/second
Recieved damage = 180/second
Time until defeat = 16.7 seconds, up by 45%.
Oh, look! Through the magic of maths, the resistance set now benefits more.
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This was never in question so what was your point?
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Originally Posted by Calhou
I'd say your example there is very questionable - as soon as the 'incoming damage' value increases, the resistance set will begin running away with the show, dropping poor regeneration in the dust.
Person A : Resistance set with low regeneration rate. Incoming damage = 400/second Mitigation = 40% Regeneration = 20/second Received damage = 220/second Time until defeat = 13.7 seconds Person B : Regeneration set with low resistances. Incoming damage = 400/second Mitigation = 10% Regeneration = 100/second Recieved damage = 260/second Time until defeat = 11.5 seconds Person A : Resistance set with low regeneration rate. Incoming damage = 400/second Mitigation = 40%+20% Regeneration = 20/second Received damage = 140/second Time until defeat = 21.4 seconds, up by 56%. Person B : Regeneration set with low resistances. Incoming damage = 400/second Mitigation = 10%+20% Regeneration = 100/second Recieved damage = 180/second Time until defeat = 16.7 seconds, up by 45%. Oh, look! Through the magic of maths, the resistance set now benefits more. |
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My point is, you're saying a regeneration set benefits more from resistance increases - I claim that this is only true in corner cases of low incoming damage, when they're both effectively immortal.|
Originally Posted by BunnyAnomaly
This was never in question so what was your point?
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As soon as situations get actually dangerous, the resistance set benefits more - as well as being much stronger in the first place - and these are the situations that matter, at least in my book.
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Please quote where I said that regeneration benefits more from resistance. For your benefit here is my own quote:|
Originally Posted by Calhou
My point is, you're saying a regeneration set benefits more from resistance increases - I claim that this is only true in corner cases of low incoming damage, when they're both effectively immortal.
As soon as situations get actually dangerous, the resistance set benefits more - as well as being much stronger in the first place - and these are the situations that matter, at least in my book. |
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| It can be therefore seen that 'stacking mitigation' is not always better. It is conditional of the situation. |
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| They function differently under different incoming damage, hence the application of one or the other will have different effects. |
BunnyAnomaly, there are two problems with that analysis*.
First is that you have not factored alpha survivability. How big of an alpha can each set survive to react and heal back? That is very relevant for tankers that, well, tank. Although its not that big of a deal solo, it can be leveraged while solo.
The second point is that Fire Armor has that level of sustained survivability litterally as penalty for it's heavy damage tools. Its not acceptable for a set that is purely defensive to barely surpass Fire Armor's survivability, much less when said survivability is very limited to specific situations (regen would still be inferior at taking the alpha.)
Saying a set, using every tool it has, can be a bit better than fire against sustained dps, is the same as admiting the set sucks, since fire does that with very few powers and gets insane offensive tools on top of that.
Try calculating how much damage is needed to kill each tank in exactly 4 seconds (thats enough to at least pull out one heal, not two.)
Although MoG may help there, it has too high of a recharge to be used on every spawn and comes too late to be factored in the game until level 32. Alphas is not something you take only when a click is available, its something you have to be ready for spawn after spawn.
Maybe the only change the set would need to be viable is to change the duration/recharge and level of availablity of MoG.
*I have not double checked to see if your math is accurate, just a disclaimer.
Fine, fine - let me rephrase it.
You're proving him 'wrong' by calculating the superiority of certain types of mitigation, as compared to the commonly considered 'best' types, against content specifically tailored to suit said type of mitigation.
I'd call it similar to going on a tangent about performance against hydras (or something, does anything even use mainly toxic damage?) in response to someone claiming that Temporary Invulnerability is a better resistance power than Hoarfrost.
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The entire purpose of the analysis is only to show that Arcanaville's statement regarding resistance is wrong.|
Originally Posted by Starsman
BunnyAnomaly, there are two problems with that analysis*.
First is that you have not factored alpha survivability. How big of an alpha can each set survive to react and heal back? That is very relevant for tankers that, well, tank. Although its not that big of a deal solo, it can be leveraged while solo. The second point is that Fire Armor has that level of sustained survivability litterally as penalty for it's heavy damage tools. Its not acceptable for a set that is purely defensive to barely surpass Fire Armor's survivability, much less when said survivability is very limited to specific situations (regen would still be inferior at taking the alpha.) Saying a set, using every tool it has, can be a bit better than fire against sustained dps, is the same as admiting the set sucks, since fire does that with very few powers and gets insane offensive tools on top of that. Try calculating how much damage is needed to kill each tank in exactly 4 seconds (thats enough to at least pull out one heal, not two.) Although MoG may help there, it has too high of a recharge to be used on every spawn and comes too late to be factored in the game until level 32. Alphas is not something you take only when a click is available, its something you have to be ready for spawn after spawn. Maybe the only change the set would need to be viable is to change the duration/recharge and level of availablity of MoG. *I have not double checked to see if your math is accurate, just a disclaimer. |
It has no bearing on which set is better or any further conditions.
I'd suggest something like this, were the set to be ported to tankers - keep the core, but add resistance and some neat tricks at the high end.