Both!
Our higher base and Max HP values would be a boon to the regen and healing abilities. However, ability to take an alpha strike would be ridiculously low until you got to level 32 and got Moment of Glory.
Let me never fall into the vulgar mistake of dreaming that I am persecuted whenever I am contradicted.
~Ralph Waldo Emerson
"I was just the one with the most unsolicited sombrero." - Traegus
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No, with resiliance's new numbers, tough/weave, DP, and reconstruction, you'd be fie on alpha strikes.
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Originally Posted by Aett_Thorn
Both!
Our higher base and Max HP values would be a boon to the regen and healing abilities. However, ability to take an alpha strike would be ridiculously low until you got to level 32 and got Moment of Glory. |
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Resilience would give you, slotted, 19.51% resistance. And DP and Reconstruction are either reactionary help (used after the alpha strike, unless you've got very good timing), or DP is used to just give you more HP, and therefore can't be used after the alpha strike, but doesn't help all that much with spike damage.|
Originally Posted by Pyro_Master_NA
No, with resiliance's new numbers, tough/weave, DP, and reconstruction, you'd be fie on alpha strikes.
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Tough and Weave, I'll grant you, but I hate having to assume that a Tanker set would need those two powers to perform it's role.
I still think the set would have a lot more issues than other sets when taking an alpha.
Let me never fall into the vulgar mistake of dreaming that I am persecuted whenever I am contradicted.
~Ralph Waldo Emerson
"I was just the one with the most unsolicited sombrero." - Traegus
Could you actually tank with regen though? I think it would be fun to have a regen tanker since they have all that HP.
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I was thinking of DP as prevention, and an extra 60% health on a tanker is over 1000 hp. That's gonna give you some time on the alpha strike. And more time means more regenerating. And as for tough/weave, I usually take them on all my melee characters. Well, I take them on a lot of my characters. In fact, anything that would be able to get through the 1000 hp from DP and the extra regen would probably take down any tank with another primary who didn't decide to take tough/weave. To me, that's like saying a tank shouldn't have to have any set bonuses or outside buffs to perform its role, and with today's expectations, that isn't happening either.
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Originally Posted by Aett_Thorn
Resilience would give you, slotted, 19.51% resistance. And DP and Reconstruction are either reactionary help (used after the alpha strike, unless you've got very good timing), or DP is used to just give you more HP, and therefore can't be used after the alpha strike, but doesn't help all that much with spike damage.
Tough and Weave, I'll grant you, but I hate having to assume that a Tanker set would need those two powers to perform it's role. I still think the set would have a lot more issues than other sets when taking an alpha. |
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If you wanted to Tank probably not a good thing I'd think, Regen has no inherent defence and only limited damage resistance. But if its was heavy duty scrapper who can heal from things stupidly fast, its probably amazing.
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Originally Posted by Mint
If tankers got regen, would that be a good thing or a bad thing and why?
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Regen would offer worse survivability under heavy fire than other sets. Also, unless it's changed (again) recently, regen has no defense plus no debuff resistance. That means the regen tanker gets hit for full effect with every endurance drain, to-hit debuff, defense debuff, recharge debuff, etc. It would be a very frustrating set to play IMO.
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Neither does FA and it's a very popular set. I'm not saying that regen would be the best set in the world, but it would be playable. And besides, think of what potential it could have with IOs. If you managed to cap it's defense to s/l/e/n (very doable now when paired with /MA) then added on the crazy regen and capped hps that a tank would get, you get a nigh unkillable beast. And IH at lvl 18? Yes please.|
Originally Posted by Intrinsic
Regen would offer worse survivability under heavy fire than other sets. Also, unless it's changed (again) recently, regen has no defense plus no debuff resistance. That means the regen tanker gets hit for full effect with every endurance drain, to-hit debuff, defense debuff, recharge debuff, etc. It would be a very frustrating set to play IMO.
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P.S. almost hit submit reply and this popped into my head. I forget who (Werner, Arcanaville, Claws, Dechs, etc...someone who is a well known foum guru) but someone posted a statistical analysis of armor sets and showed that on SOs alone regen was either the top performer, or at least very close. That would make it great for all the new F2P players.
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That was Arcanaville's I7 analysis of scrapper secondaries. |
Originally Posted by Pyro_Master_NA
Neither does FA and it's a very popular set. I'm not saying that regen would be the best set in the world, but it would be playable. And besides, think of what potential it could have with IOs. If you managed to cap it's defense to s/l/e/n (very doable now when paired with /MA) then added on the crazy regen and capped hps that a tank would get, you get a nigh unkillable beast. And IH at lvl 18? Yes please.
P.S. almost hit submit reply and this popped into my head. I forget who (Werner, Arcanaville, Claws, Dechs, etc...someone who is a well known foum guru) but someone posted a statistical analysis of armor sets and showed that on SOs alone regen was either the top performer, or at least very close. That would make it great for all the new F2P players. |
Executive summary: Regen had the highest "immortality line" and three-minute survival, while SR had the highest 30-second survival. The analysis did not include the effects of pool powers, which hits SR harder than the others (you can softcap SR on SOs and pool powers). If you look at the "peak performance" numbers (equivalent to softcapped SR), SR is the best scrapper secondary for 180-second survival as well, followed by Dark and Invulnerabilty, with Regen lagging far behind.
Basically, Invulnerability, SR, and to a lesser extent Dark scale with incoming damage, while Regen doesn't.
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That was on a scrapper's protection though. One would think that since regen is hp based, as to say more hp means more regen, that it would scale better on a tank, right? And if it was I7, then it had old MoG, if I'm remembering updates correctly.
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Originally Posted by Katie V
That was Arcanaville's I7 analysis of scrapper secondaries.
Executive summary: Regen had the highest "immortality line" and three-minute survival, while SR had the highest 30-second survival. The analysis did not include the effects of pool powers, which hits SR harder than the others (you can softcap SR on SOs and pool powers). If you look at the "peak performance" numbers (equivalent to softcapped SR), SR is the best scrapper secondary for 180-second survival as well, followed by Dark and Invulnerabilty, with Regen lagging far behind. Basically, Invulnerability, SR, and to a lesser extent Dark scale with incoming damage, while Regen doesn't. |
I thought Willpower was introduced in part because Regen wouldn't work as well. Atleast with Brutes you don't have to be considered or play as a Tanker.
Having said that by transition through the Brute AT and then some changes anything can happen.
I probably wouldn't play it. MoG don't last long enough. Ideally I would cossie change into MoG and cossie change out of it.
He will honor his words; he will definitely carry out his actions. What he promises he will fulfill. He does not care about his bodily self, putting his life and death aside to come forward for another's troubled besiegement. He does not boast about his ability, or shamelessly extol his own virtues. - Sima Qian.
Regen tankers would SUCK unless they do some huge revamp or tanker specific changes.
Tankers have to be able to absorb huge volleys of damage in the all too famous alphas. Regen relies almost exclusively on the ability to heal back damage, not reduce it. It would be like expecting an Invuln tank to survive an alpha with no passives, and no toggles, just wearing dull pain randomly and expecting an Emapth to keep them healed.
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Oh dang. I feel like a H43L0Rz ftw supporter now because of the way you worded that. Haha ok, so with that new feeling on it, I guess they would need some changes.
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Originally Posted by Starsman
Regen tankers would SUCK unless they do some huge revamp or tanker specific changes.
Tankers have to be able to absorb huge volleys of damage in the all too famous alphas. Regen relies almost exclusively on the ability to heal back damage, not reduce it. It would be like expecting an Invuln tank to survive an alpha with no passives, and no toggles, just wearing dull pain randomly and expecting an Emapth to keep them healed. |
Changes may not necesarely be drastic.
The question is how willing would Synapse be to do tanker specific version of regen (very few mods) or change drastically powers on all existing versions of regen.
I would for one do just two changes:
Resilience: I am not sure the exact change this power had with i21, I know now it adds resistance to all, but if it's still the same magnitude as the old Smash/lethal then it still sucks. If its the same magnitude as the old toxic, then the power is OK.
Remove instant healing. Replace with a taunt aura that adds HP per target affected. Perhaps keep some small regen boost per target there too.
If you are fast (same goes for invuln) the taunt aura will have buffed you before enemies actually are aware of you and toss the alpha your way.
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It's actually better than both. It's now around 9.38% resistance to all (base value), at Scrapper scales.
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Originally Posted by Starsman
Resilience: I am not sure the exact change this power had with i21, I know now it adds resistance to all, but if it's still the same magnitude as the old Smash/lethal then it still sucks. If its the same magnitude as the old toxic, then the power is OK.
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Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
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wow.. that was one big buff! Well deserved too... Resilience was the worse passive... if not the worse power, in the entire game.
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Originally Posted by UberGuy
It's actually better than both. It's now around 9.38% resistance to all (base value), at Scrapper scales.
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No. Going from a base 1339 HP to a base 1874 HP on a regen tank will simply give you the ability to handle a 50% larger alpha strike, where a defense or resistance tank multiplies those additional hitpoints with a tank's stronger values for defensive powers for much higher survivability.
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Originally Posted by Pyro_Master_NA
That was on a scrapper's protection though. One would think that since regen is hp based, as to say more hp means more regen, that it would scale better on a tank, right?
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Come on, Starsman, that's being overly melodramatic. It's not a remarkable power, but far from the worst:|
Originally Posted by Starsman
wow.. that was one big buff! Well deserved too... Resilience was the worse passive... if not the worse power, in the entire game.
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* Flurry - Why would you pick this up instead of Hasten? Ever?
* Sonic Repulsion - Toggle radial knockback that you can't use solo and can't control. (Target can proceed to be a bonehead with it.)
* Invoke Panic - Terrible uptime, accuracy, end costs, and prerequisites. [edit: Also, it's only MAG 2.]
[edit: Or for a more direct analogy: Blasters / Munitions / Body Armor - 8.75% res. No toxic, stun resistance, or stun protection.]
As for Regen on a Tank, at this juncture, I wouldn't touch it. (Who knows what's coming down the pipe with future Incarnate Abilities, IOs, content, etc.)
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FA has good resistance to endurance drain, and at least a little resistance to speed and recharge debuffs. It's not bad, considering FA's offensive potential. Endurance drain in particular is one of my bugaboos, and I wouldn't play a tanking set that can't mitigate it.
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Originally Posted by Pyro_Master_NA
Neither does FA and it's a very popular set. I'm not saying that regen would be the best set in the world, but it would be playable. And besides, think of what potential it could have with IOs. If you managed to cap it's defense to s/l/e/n (very doable now when paired with /MA) then added on the crazy regen and capped hps that a tank would get, you get a nigh unkillable beast. And IH at lvl 18? Yes please.
P.S. almost hit submit reply and this popped into my head. I forget who (Werner, Arcanaville, Claws, Dechs, etc...someone who is a well known foum guru) but someone posted a statistical analysis of armor sets and showed that on SOs alone regen was either the top performer, or at least very close. That would make it great for all the new F2P players. |
It would be an interesting set to play, that's for sure! If ported to a Tanker though it'd need a Taunt aura of some kind, so perhaps Integration would be turned into a clone of Rise to the Challenge? Assuming so, a Tank with RTTC and Instant Healing would achieve personal regeneration of rediculous amounts, at a guess over 200hp/sec on SOs when surrounded and IHing and that's not including Dull Pain's +hp. Alpha Strikes could still be tricky, but that's what MoG's for surely?
Until 32+ you don't really fight anything which'd dent silly regen numbers and self heals and etc etc, so I think it'd be fine. Should it arise, you have inspirations to dig into, temp powers, team buffs (if you're solo why are you fighting something you can't reasonably take on?) and the already impressive Tanker HP pool to dig into. After 32, you have all the tools you need, and come 50 then there're IOs and Incarnate powers to help you along too *if* the set underperforms, which I doubt it would.
I am the Blaster, I have filled the role of Tank, Controller and Defender
Sometimes all at once.
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You see, as sucky as flury may be, I was able to take advantage of it in a few low level characters to fill in level gaps (mostly tankers that got slow access to attacks.) Sure, there are other better pool attacks, but before fitness was inherent, and you were limited to 4 pools, I found myself sometimes stuck with the speed pool. Dont take me wrong, not defending the power. It does suck, big time, but I still feel old Resilliance was even less useful. |
Originally Posted by Sarrate
Come on, Starsman, that's being overly melodramatic. It's not a remarkable power, but far from the worst:
* Flurry - Why would you pick this up instead of Hasten? Ever? * Sonic Repulsion - Toggle radial knockback that you can't use solo and can't control. (Target can proceed to be a bonehead with it.) * Invoke Panic - Terrible uptime, accuracy, end costs, and prerequisites. [edit: Also, it's only MAG 2.] [edit: Or for a more direct analogy: Blasters / Munitions / Body Armor - 8.75% res. No toxic, stun resistance, or stun protection.] |
Body armor, when mods are accounted for, still was better given it was the equivalent of 9.375 resist for scrappers. Would not take it over it's toggle peers, but it was still not as bad as Resilliance.
OK, Sonic Repulsion is a... blach sheep. But mostly due to it's endurance drain (it has one of those per foes end drain right?) Else it would be a very good team support power.
But I digress, I guess some would find in their personal views powers that were "worse off", but for me, who mostly plays melee classes, I found Resilliance to be just horrendous and only took it to have a place to put resist IO sets.
We can agree it was the worst passive in the game, right?
Edit: wont go into Invoke Panic because it was victim of one of the most stupid nerfs from the Statesman era.
Two changes would be needed to make it perform:
1. Add taunt to integration
2. Add recharge debuff resistance either to the set (as passives) or just to certain powers while in effect (MoG and/or IH) to about 60%(?)
Miss Arc #147491: Rise of Bedlam
AKA Iron Smoke @Champion Server
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They would die en masse.
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Originally Posted by CBeet
If Tankers got Regen
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Duo MoITF - 26:06 | Duo MoKahn - 25:50 | Duo MoLGTF - 29:34 |
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This made me smile. |
Originally Posted by Pyro_Master_NA
I forget who (Werner, Arcanaville, Claws, Dechs, etc...someone who is a well known foum guru) but someone posted a statistical analysis of armor sets and showed that on SOs alone regen was either the top performer, or at least very close. That would make it great for all the new F2P players.
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I don't think of myself as a "forum guru". My knowledge was mostly cribbed from other people's brain sweat.
I'm quite flattered to be thought of in the same vein as the others you mentioned, though. Fine company indeed. I don't feel I deserve to be thought of that highly, but it makes me feel good that someone did.
It wasn't me that did the analysis, by the way. Getting that deep into the numbers isn't my strong point by any stretch of the imagination. Werner or Arcanaville are more likely.
For what it's worth though, a Regen/MA tank would be pretty damn tough. It would suffer from the same vulnerability to alpha strikes and massive burst damage as any other regen, but if you can softcap a Fiery Aura or Electric Armor tank, you can softcap a Regen as well (none of the 3 have any native defense powers). Once softcapped, you'd find yourself in a position of "if you don't die within 15 seconds, you never will"
I suggest Martial Arts because the 10% defense from Storm Kick would be huge as far as softcapping it goes. You'd only need to get to 35% on the types/positions you want to soft cap and Storm Kick will take care of the rest (since it will probably be part of your attack chain anyway)
Tanks are probably getting Energy Aura next, but I wouldn't be too surprised if it were Regen instead.
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Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison See, it's gems like these that make me check Claws' post history every once in a while to make sure I haven't missed anything good lately. |
If tankers got regen, would that be a good thing or a bad thing and why?