Quote:
Arcanaville has said that adding equal resistances to two characters, one with higher base resistance, the other with lower (literally, fiery aura vs regen), the one with higher base resistance will improve more.|
Originally Posted by Starsman
If that is the point you want to make you actually have to run those numbers twice.
For tanks and for scrappers, and then you have to prove that the scrapper regen has the same percentage of advantage over the fire scrapper as the tanker does. If you are doing everything right, you will see regen scrapper will have much more sustainable survivability than the fire scrapper, but nearly tie in tankers. Thats what Arcanaville means by saying regen does not scale with the AT as resist does (or at least thats what Im taking she does, given my own understanding of the topic.) In other words: just because a regen between scrappers can be as survivable as, perhaps an invuln (pulling off the air, no numbers at hand) does not mean it can do the same in the realm of tankers. |
That is false.
This speaks nothing of the perfomance of the sets, just the maths behind the statement.
Quote:
It's not wrong, but there may be a bit of a missunderstanding at work here. |
Originally Posted by BunnyAnomaly
Arcanaville has said that adding equal resistances to two characters, one with higher base resistance, the other with lower (literally, fiery aura vs regen), the one with higher base resistance will improve more.
That is false. |
Quick example with some entirely baseless numbers:
- Lets say a set with pure regen has a survivability "score" of 3.
If you scale it to tankers, it goes up only 25% to 4, because thats all the scaling it gets.
- Now lets say a set with pure resistance has a survivability "score" of 2.
If you scale it to tankers, it goes up by 25% (due to HP) and then another 33.3% due to resist modds, for a final result of 3.32.
The reason to even bring this up is that "common sense" of regen being uber for scrappers wont translate on it being uber for tankers.
Quote:
Looking at MoG on a tanker isn't going to help with anything in this world. |
Originally Posted by BunnyAnomaly
Say hello to MoG and IH. More recharge favours Regen more than Fiery Aura. Looking at one detail in a vacuum is not going to help build an argument.
|
Wake up - even with recharge of 100% base + 100% enhancement and +400% hardcapped global rech you get 25 seconds downtime during which you will die 3 times over if you're doing anything the unenhanced blaster on your team couldn't take care of himself with half an insp tray.
Duo MoITF - 26:06 | Duo MoKahn - 25:50 | Duo MoLGTF - 29:34 |
Quote:
Technically Regen would not need MoG to be up all the time. It would just have to be ready at the start of every fight. It does not evenhave to be on for the 15 seconds it last, just long enough to absorb the alpha volley.|
Originally Posted by Wintry
Looking at MoG on a tanker isn't going to help with anything in this world.
Wake up - even with recharge of 100% base + 100% enhancement and +400% hardcapped global rech you get 25 seconds downtime during which you will die 3 times over if you're doing anything the unenhanced blaster on your team couldn't take care of himself with half an insp tray. |
It also would have to be available much earlier.
Quote:
Alpha isn't the only killer. After i9 people started gradually forgetting what gameplay before was like. Now we're 12 issues further down the line and I notice it's come to a point where many folks don't have the slightest clue about it anymore.|
Originally Posted by Starsman
Technically Regen would not need MoG to be up all the time. It would just have to be ready at the start of every fight. It does not evenhave to be on for the 15 seconds it last, just long enough to absorb the alpha volley.
It also would have to be available much earlier. |
Half of those who posted in this thread seem to have no idea of how staggeringly many attacks an old fashioned tanker had to deal with tanking for a full team.
This is why you need a solid combination of def, res, max HP, regen, etc to survive and why they had that.
Regen has the very, very least in this area - nothing worthy of note apart from the regen and heals - and that is why it's a set designed to cope with a stray hit rather than the level of dedicated tanking that the single most tanking-tailored AT in the game is supposed to be capable of.
You know... just to remind you, this game was once balanced. Every character had its role and a team had to work together.
And guess what, if you're contemplating proliferation you still need to make sure that the set you're bringing to yet another AT is capable of meeting the requirements of the ATs primary purpose to any extent whatsoever.
It doesn't have to be the new best tanking set, but it needs to be able to face something without dying. And I don't mean 1 minion, I mean something in line with the design philosophy behind the AT.
Regen was made to fill in a whole different role and unlike SR (although that was a borderline case too because thanks to def and DDR it may survive a lot, but it's absolute lousy in terms of reliability which is high up the priority list for tankers too) the one thing regen does have from the multiple it should have to make itself resiliant is the one that doesn't work at all on its own when trying to do a tanker's duty.
And if you're wondering why that bit of history matters, it's because coincidentally F2P gameplay is pre-i9 gameplay in this particular regard.
Duo MoITF - 26:06 | Duo MoKahn - 25:50 | Duo MoLGTF - 29:34 |
Quote:
Most players have to be able to play their tankers from levels 1 through 50. At what level do you expect them to be slotting enough IOs to have perma Dull Pain.
|
Originally Posted by ClawsandEffect
I'm still of the opinion that Perma Dull Pain on a Regen tank is a reasonable performance expectation.
We can't ignore the fact that IOs exist, doing so is silly. On SOs alone, I'm willing to concede that Regen as-is would need a couple buffs before being ported to tanks. |
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Quote:
It's just recently become no more than realistic to ignore their existence actually, because we're now in i21 and to F2P they don't exist.|
Originally Posted by ClawsandEffect
We can't ignore the fact that IOs exist, doing so is silly. On SOs alone, I'm willing to concede that Regen as-is would need a couple buffs before being ported to tanks.
|
That doesn't mean powersets can't be alrightish with SOs and become 'awesome' with IOs - that is still fine.
But it does mean with only SOs you have to be able to not just sort of fall over while only trying to do your job.
Duo MoITF - 26:06 | Duo MoKahn - 25:50 | Duo MoLGTF - 29:34 |
Quote:
I been here since nearly the start, and this game has never been as balanced as it is now even outside of the invention system. Not saying its perfect, but set balance was horrendous back in the day.|
Originally Posted by Wintry
You know... just to remind you, this game was once balanced. Every character had its role and a team had to work together.
|
The main reason regen and healing was not used much before was because the developers themselves didnt understand it, its weaknesses, it's strenghts, nothing. They just thought it was a nearly broken mechanic (and it was, due to how they handed it out without understanding it.)
Until Willpower, the devs seemed to have a phobia towards the set.
As for role, the role of a tanker are basically three:
- Maintain aggro.
- Survive the alpha (where all heavy hitting attacks are ready to fire, all at once)
- Survive the rest of the DPS.
A regeneration based set can survive perfectly fine the sustained DPS, specially if it gets a scaling mechanic as Willpower does. Regen may need adjustments to be a good tank, but most of the non-regen based adjustments are only required due to it's likeliness to not survive an alpha wave. And its very likely, once you fix that problem, you fix the problem of the regeneration not scaling with modifiers.
Quote:
This. |
Originally Posted by Wintry
It's just recently become no more than realistic to ignore their existence actually, because we're now in i21 and to F2P they don't exist.
|
You MUST ignore IOs while balancing sets. You can partially keep them in mind (like give some set a minor token buff only so they can accomodate X IO options) but you MUST make sure that without IOs all sets are balanced.
Now more than ever. Although got to say, most people I know in game level with just SOs or lvl 25 generic IOs until they get to lvl 50.
IO balnce issues have to be addressed while balancing IOs.
Quote:
Yes, I remember this line of thought. The conventional notion of being "more survivable" is "being able to survive more damage." Its not "taking longer to die in non-survivable situations."|
Originally Posted by BunnyAnomaly
I've been down this road before, so just enjoy this example.
|
In your first example, the survivable level of damage of A is 33.3 dps, and for B its 111.1 dps. B is enormously more survivable. But adding 20 percentage points of additional mitigation significantly reduces the gap between them: A increases to 50 dps, while B only increases to 142.9 dps. B has gone from being 3.33x higher in survivability to only 2.86x higher in survivability. The difference isn't huge, but its there.
Now, your argument seems to be that this is situational: that there exist theoretical situations where a resistance power stacked on regeneration can improve survivability by a larger factor than when stacked in a resistance power. That's a given, given the mechanics of regeneration. Everyone (who understands regeneration) knows that unlike defense and resistance which mitigate proportional to incoming damage, regeneration mitigates a fixed amount of damage per time regardless of incoming damage. And therefore for basically *any* two combinations of resistance and regeneration, there is a break-even point for them; even ridiculous pairings have a break even point.
If I say 80% resistance is better than +5% regeneration, a nit-picker could say that is a situational statement, and produce numbers to prove it. Specifically, if incoming damage was extremely small, then 80% of it can be made to be less than 5% of net regeneration. Those would be cases where incoming damage was small enough to be negligable, but they would exist. Similar situations exists with lower resistances and very high regen: you can always calculate the break even between the two situations, and then find cases where the regeneration would be better.
But that then makes comparisons meaningless. You just have to keep putting in disclaimers everywhere saying "assuming we're comparing survivability based on the highest survivable case."
In any case, I'm perfectly fine with you continuing to promote your theory that the normal way mitigation is compared is wrong, because it doesn't account for all the cases where the player will die. I'll continue to use the comparison point of the best survivable situation as the starting point, and closed survivability points as modifiers.
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Quote:
In the contest of this thread, I believe practically everyone except you understands that what I meant by "improves more" is "has their survivability increase more, given the conventional definition of survivability that has been standard since 2005."
|
Originally Posted by BunnyAnomaly
Arcanaville has said that adding equal resistances to two characters, one with higher base resistance, the other with lower (literally, fiery aura vs regen), the one with higher base resistance will improve more.
That is false. This speaks nothing of the perfomance of the sets, just the maths behind the statement. |
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Quote:
This is where I think you go wrong.|
Originally Posted by Starsman
A regeneration based set can survive perfectly fine the sustained DPS
|
It would if it had anything else - a second survivability increasing factor, like every other tanking set has.
But it doesn't have anything else.
It does not have the resistance to reduce the damage from the never ending barrage of attacks to something it can actually cover with its regen/healing.
And it does not have the defense to simply avoid a part of those hits.
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Starsman
... specially if it gets a scaling mechanic as Willpower does. Regen may need adjustments to be a good tank
|
If the Regeneration set is no longer the Regeneration set, then it might stand a chance.... depending on what it is then.
But then again we'll end up talking about willpower which indeed does work and they already have for that exact reason.
Willpower is much like regen in a way that's actually capable of tanking rather than messing about in scrapperlock with what stuff the real tanker missed taunting.
Duo MoITF - 26:06 | Duo MoKahn - 25:50 | Duo MoLGTF - 29:34 |
Quote:
We getting into dangerous semanthics here. I said a "regeneration based set", with lowercase R. Not talking specificly about Regeneration as in the set named that.|
Originally Posted by Wintry
This is where I think you go wrong.
....... Here I agree with you. If the Regeneration set is no longer the Regeneration set, then it might stand a chance.... . |
At the end of the day all sets are just reducing damage and hoping their natural regeneration covers the rest. If you have no damage reduction mechanism, you better just have a lot of regeneration.
But you can make a tanker set that can be mostly regen/heal based and be a perfect tanker. The problem is, as Arcanaville pointed, such a set would be an overpowered scrapper and brute set. (Case at hand: Willpower)
Quote:
Yes they do, but there's a specific reason why I set both MoG and IH aside for this comparison. If we are just coming up with an average performance, as a simple metric to kick around for discussion purposes, I can and have in the past averaged in the peformance of IH and MoG. But we aren't talking here about average performance when we talk about whether Regen is ready to go for Tankers. What we are talking about is whether Regen's performance is consistently high enough for the most part to sustain continuous or near-continuous tanking of the kind you would see in the average team. So we don't need a Regen tanker to be a powerhouse steamroller tanker, but we do need it to perform at the pace of average players. We also cannot rely on averaging out low uptime powers. We also have to consider actual leveling, which isn't typified by having lots and lots of IOs. We normally consider SOs, even if only temporarily, as a critical segment of a tanker's leveling experience.|
Originally Posted by BunnyAnomaly
MoG, IH both benefit from recharge.
|
So the first big question is: can Dull Pain be perma with SOs. And the answer is no. We have two possibilities: its up 2/3rds of the time, and down about 60 seconds a cycle, or we toss in Hasten, which has a complex behavior given that *it* won't be perma either, but will reduce the average downtime of Dull Pain to about 30 seconds. The worst case downtime will be significantly higher.
Unless we're presuming Hasten will be a mandatory power for Regen, we have to consider the 60 second downtime scenario. The second question is can that downtime be covered by IH and MoG collectively. And the answer to that is also no. IH has a 650s recharge time. Its going to be available once every 325 seconds, more or less. Dull Pain's duration is 120 seconds. With 60s of downtime, we would need IH to be available every 180 seconds. Basically, IH can cover every other Dull Pain downtime window, if we save it to use only during those windows.
MoG's recharge is only 240 seconds, so it can also be available every 180 seconds. But its duration is only 15 seconds: it doesn't last long enough to cover a Dull Pain downtime window, which will be 60 seconds. And its only available at 32 (slotted for recharge by 33). Instant Healing is available at 18, so it can cover a tanker's leveling experience from a relatively early level. But the levels from 18 to 32 are not insignificant.
So we have to regimes to consider: pre-32 without MoG, and post-32 with MoG. Pre-32, we have to consider the case of a 60 second downtime of Dull Pain where IH is recharging and MoG is not available. We can then calculate the survivability limit of that 60 second window, assuming extremely well slotted Regen powers (which is the best case scenario). Best case, we have about 570% total regen, which is 100/240*5.7 = 2.38%/sec health recovery, and about 50%/30s = 1.67%/s from reconstruction. That's about 4.05%/sec health recovery. At level 50, just for comparison purposes, that would be about 76 h/s recovery. If we assume well-slotted resilience as well, that would be about 19.5% resistance. If we did these calculations at level 50, that would imply the maximum incoming damage rate that was still survivable in 60 seconds was about 115 dps. At level 50, that would be the rough equivalent of 10-12 minions or equivalent.
That's quite a lot for a scrapper, not so much for a tanker. A small mix of minions, LTs, and a Boss could exceed that level of damage. Now, scaled down into the level range we're interested in from 18 to 32, the situation could change. So lets see: at level 50, minion melee damage scale is 120.48 compared to tanker base health of 1874. At level 25, minion melee damage scale is 66.03 while tanker health is 1027. At level 50, it takes 1874/120.48 = 15.6 scale minion melee damage to deal base tanker health in damage, and at level 25 it takes 1027/66.03 = 15.6 scale damage also. So actually, the situation scales down fine, at least to around level 25.
However, the average level 25 minion has slightly less damage than the average level 50 minion. How much less is pretty complex to calculate. Lets say its approximately 10-15% less: that's not likely to be far from the correct value.
Overall, then, we're looking at something like 11-13 minion equivalents as being survivable on average by a level 25 regen tanker with very strongly slotted mitigation, before power pools are tossed into the mix (which would help, but in this level range they would also steal slots from the primary). On average, LTs deal about 50% more damage than minions, while bosses are all over the place but tend to deal at least 4-5 times the damage of a minion (the average is closer to 6). So a spawn with four minions, two Lts, and one Boss, deals the equivalent of about that 11-13 minion equivalent, and that's a spawn strength that can occur in four player teams.
The rough calculations show that spawn is *barely* survivable on average inside that downtime. Random chance will make it occasionally not survivable.
Now, the point of the calculation is not to actually calculate the precise survivability of a Regen tanker, so quibbling around the edges isn't particularly useful. Its intended to provide a rough estimate of how regen tanker performance is going to oscillate around, to ensure the downtime isn't severe enough that averaging it out masks a problem. And it seems that averaging it out is dangerous, because the downtime is relatively long (60s in this case) and the level of vulnerability during the window is high enough to encroach upon the minimum level of performance tankers should actually have, at least as the devs have stated that minimum in the past.
The point is its close enough to be too close. Even if I'm off and in actual play that situation ends up being barely survivable instead of randomly not survivable, its still too close for comfort. If Dull Pain was perma with SOs, I'd retract my concern. If there were better ways to cover the downtime, than currently exist, I'd probably also retract my concern. I personally don't need Regen tankers to be uber. I just require them to be functional, as tankers have been defined to be functional. Right now, its too close not to consider reexamining the set before porting to Tankers. You're going to have to do it anyway when you start deciding where to put the taunt aura, which the devs have all but stated must be there.
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Quote:
Granted, I misread that.|
Originally Posted by Starsman
We getting into dangerous semanthics here. I said a "regeneration based set", with lowercase R. Not talking specificly about Regeneration as in the set named that.
|
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Starsman
At the end of the day all sets are just reducing damage and hoping their natural regeneration covers the rest. If you have no damage reduction mechanism, you better just have a lot of regeneration.
But you can make a tanker set that can be mostly regen/heal based and be a perfect tanker. The problem is, as Arcanaville pointed, such a set would be an overpowered scrapper and brute set. (Case at hand: Willpower) |
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Wintry
It would if it had anything else - a second survivability increasing factor, like every other tanking set has.
But it doesn't have anything else. It does not have the resistance to reduce the damage from the never ending barrage of attacks to something it can actually cover with its regen/healing. And it does not have the defense to simply avoid a part of those hits. |
The tanker AT was designed very differently from scrappers and the likes.
As you stated earlier the tanker has different strong points related to its role in a team; solid aggro control and survivability come to mind.
Scrappers can do a little bit of aggro control and they have some survivability, but they don't combine it the way tankers do, which is why we have tankers.
The scrapper puts out more damage, but the tanker needs to soak up more damage. For this to work the scrapper can do with just one or at least less of the various survivability increasing factors.
A tanker - due to solid crowd control for a whole group being part of its intended role - needs more survivability and combines multiple of those factors to achieve that.
Therefore sets that qualified for proliferation from other melee ATs to tankers are generally sets that already include a combination of often res+heal/regen, def+heal/regen, res+def or something such.
One exception was the recent in my opinion borderline proliferation of SR to tankers, but even that made more sense than regen does, because past a certain point in the sheer amount of mobs you need to cope with at the same time def is a lot more effective than regen alone. You simply cannot have a tanker's aggrocap worth of mobs that you taunted just fine hitting you with nearly every attack and successfully regen/heal all of that - health will steadily go down, and this has nothing to do with alpha damage.
Whereas simply too high total incoming DPS all hitting you outdamaging your healing potential is guaranteed to wear you out defense on the other hand can always be sufficient to keep you alive by means of dumb luck - it just can't do it in a truly reliable manner.
I'll be the last to deny regen can be good on a scrapper, but it simply doesn't meet the requirements to be equally effective under the circumstances that come with being a tanker, because a scrapper - even that far too common type that runs up front going "Woooo look at me I'm so totally awesome I'm carrying the team yo!" - is being ignored by half the mobs no matter how hard they try and how much they think they're doing everything, unless they're solo.
And that brings us back to this example of that 'awesome' regen scrapper 'tanking' solo that was brought up earlier in this thread - doing a double RWZ challenge. That's what it would need to be able to do. In truth it's not a requirement they're able to do all that tanking 54s, but for comparison sake that compensates a little for the fact they'd have to cope with a larger amount of mobs - a tanker's aggrocap.
However, it would need to be able to do these things successfully in an F2P game, which is much like i8.
I can tell you with fair certainty that the way things are now it can't. It would die. Horribly. Just ask someone to strip his IOs out and go do RWZ challenges...
For that to work it would require either substantial def or substantial res to be added to complement the heal/regen.
If that would happen in porting it the set would A) no longer be itself and B) look scarily much like Willpower... which in turn brings me back to:
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Wintry
Willpower is much like regen in a way that's actually capable of tanking rather than messing about in scrapperlock with what stuff the real tanker missed taunting.
|
Duo MoITF - 26:06 | Duo MoKahn - 25:50 | Duo MoLGTF - 29:34 |
Hero Plan by Mids' Hero Designer 1.952
http://www.cohplanner.com/
Level 25 Magic Tanker
Primary Power Set: Regeneration
Secondary Power Set: Energy Melee
Power Pool: Flight
Power Pool: Fighting
Hero Profile:
Level 1: Fast Healing -- Heal(A), Heal(3), Heal(3)
Level 1: Energy Punch -- Acc(A), Dmg(23), Dmg(23)
Level 2: Reconstruction -- RechRdx(A), RechRdx(7)Heal(7), Heal(15),
Level 4: Bone Smasher -- Acc(A), Dmg(5), Dmg(5)
Level 6: Fly -- Fly(A)
Level 8: Integration -- Heal(A), Heal(9), Heal(9)
Level 10: Dull Pain -- RechRdx(A), RechRdx(11), RechRdx(11), Heal(13), Heal(13)
Level 12: Quick Recovery -- EndMod(A), EndMod(15)
Level 14: Taunt -- Taunt(A)
Level 16: Whirling Hands -- Acc(A), Dmg(17), Dmg(17)
Level 18: Resilience -- ResDam(A)ResDam(19), ResDam(19)
Level 20: Instant Healing -- RechRdx(A), RechRdx(21), RechRdx(21)
Level 22: Boxing -- Acc(A)
Level 24: Tough -- ResDam(A), ResDam(25), ResDam(25)
------------
Level 2: Swift -- Run(A)
Level 2: Health -- Heal(A)
Level 2: Hurdle -- Jump(A)
Level 2: Stamina -- EndMod(A),
Level 1: Brawl -- Acc(A)
Level 1: Fury
Level 1: Sprint -- Run(A)
Level 2: Rest -- RechRdx(A)
Level 4: Ninja Run
--------------------------------------------------------------------
I could tank with that at level 25. That gives me about 43% Sm, Le resist, 40% Toxic, and 19.5 to everything else. Dull Pain is down for 64 secs, that's a bummer. Recon is there for me every 36 seconds.
Probably not as good or about even with a Fire Tanker at that level, but I could tank with it.
The City of Heroes Community is a special one and I will always look fondly on my times arguing, discussing and playing with you all. Thanks and thanks to the developers for a special experience.
Quote:
How did you set up regen as a primary in mid's?|
Originally Posted by EvilGeko
Hero Plan by Mids' Hero Designer 1.952
http://www.cohplanner.com/ Level 25 Magic Tanker Primary Power Set: Regeneration Secondary Power Set: Energy Melee Power Pool: Flight Power Pool: Fighting Hero Profile: Level 1: Fast Healing -- Heal(A), Heal(3), Heal(3) Level 1: Energy Punch -- Acc(A), Dmg(23), Dmg(23) Level 2: Reconstruction -- RechRdx(A), RechRdx(7)Heal(7), Heal(15), Level 4: Bone Smasher -- Acc(A), Dmg(5), Dmg(5) Level 6: Fly -- Fly(A) Level 8: Integration -- Heal(A), Heal(9), Heal(9) Level 10: Dull Pain -- RechRdx(A), RechRdx(11), RechRdx(11), Heal(13), Heal(13) Level 12: Quick Recovery -- EndMod(A), EndMod(15) Level 14: Taunt -- Taunt(A) Level 16: Whirling Hands -- Acc(A), Dmg(17), Dmg(17) Level 18: Resilience -- ResDam(A)ResDam(19), ResDam(19) Level 20: Instant Healing -- RechRdx(A), RechRdx(21), RechRdx(21) Level 22: Boxing -- Acc(A) Level 24: Tough -- ResDam(A), ResDam(25), ResDam(25) ------------ Level 2: Swift -- Run(A) Level 2: Health -- Heal(A) Level 2: Hurdle -- Jump(A) Level 2: Stamina -- EndMod(A), Level 1: Brawl -- Acc(A) Level 1: Fury Level 1: Sprint -- Run(A) Level 2: Rest -- RechRdx(A) Level 4: Ninja Run -------------------------------------------------------------------- I could tank with that at level 25. That gives me about 43% Sm, Le resist, 40% Toxic, and 19.5 to everything else. Dull Pain is down for 64 secs, that's a bummer. Recon is there for me every 36 seconds. Probably not as good or about even with a Fire Tanker at that level, but I could tank with it. |
I've known for a while now that you can do this kinda stuff, but never bothered to learn how myself.
You guys keep arguing about Regen tanking on SO's at level 20 something. I'll take a direct port from what they gave to Brutes with Tanker modifiers, throw a ton of IO's at it and be ridiculously awesome at level 50. I have a Brute build with 200+ hp/s with IH running and perma dull pain. That becomes about 240ish on a Tank, right? All that with slightly better resists and defense.
It probably won't be 100% as good in some situations, but don't let balance get in the way of the fun!
This thread is an interesting read, but I feel it is looking at the set in too much of a bubble. I see a lot of comments that regen would be a bad team tank, I feel the opposite is true. As always, when you add ANYTHING to regen, def, res, etc.- regen becomes teh uber. And what better place to get anything, then on a team? odds are pretty good that someone on the team will have sonic bubbles, def bubbles, ice or thermal shields, or whatever.
Secondly, soft controls are vert effective for regen. take knockdown. other sets benefit from KD also, but obviously the amount of health regenerated between a regen and something else during the 2 seconds the foes are getting up in is going to favor the regen.
theres really two things that kill a regen, -regen(i see they added a significant res to this effect recently) and spike dmg. there is no cascading def failures. There is no "hole" to some type of dmg. -regen to my knowledge is not around in enough volume to really be a deal breaker, so that leaves spike dmg.
So get some protection from spike dmg from pretty much anything thrown on you from a team mate, and your good to go. Nobody on the team to help you out that way? then your team is probably to small to worry about an alpha anyway.
In short, I think the ONOZ about regen tanks are similar to the ONOZ about Psi blasters- they are/were both exaggerated.
besides, the most important proliferation related totanks is making Ice Melee available to an actual dmg AT! Stop hoarding it like your precious!!
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93496 A Pawn in Time
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I could tank with that as well. I can also tank with my SR scrapper at 25, with some difficulty. But for me, the question is not whether Regen would be a "good" or "bad" tanker. Those are subjective labels. The question is whether Regen would exist within the nominal range of performance considered reasonable for a new tanker powerset if a new tanker powerset was being constructed from scratch. If it is, it is. If it is not, then just because its a pre-existing set, doesn't exempt it from the same reasonable boundary conditions a new powerset would be expected to follow.
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Originally Posted by EvilGeko
I could tank with that at level 25. That gives me about 43% Sm, Le resist, 40% Toxic, and 19.5 to everything else. Dull Pain is down for 64 secs, that's a bummer. Recon is there for me every 36 seconds.
Probably not as good or about even with a Fire Tanker at that level, but I could tank with it. |
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Originally Posted by Wintry
It's just recently become no more than realistic to ignore their existence actually, because we're now in i21 and to F2P they don't exist.
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Originally Posted by Starsman
You MUST ignore IOs while balancing sets. You can partially keep them in mind (like give some set a minor token buff only so they can accomodate X IO options) but you MUST make sure that without IOs all sets are balanced.
Now more than ever. |
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Originally Posted by MajorTractor
You guys keep arguing about Regen tanking on SO's at level 20 something. I'll take a direct port from what they gave to Brutes with Tanker modifiers, throw a ton of IO's at it and be ridiculously awesome at level 50. I have a Brute build with 200+ hp/s with IH running and perma dull pain. That becomes about 240ish on a Tank, right? All that with slightly better resists and defense.
It probably won't be 100% as good in some situations, but don't let balance get in the way of the fun! |
They are, however, clients or customers if you will like any other. You must create a game that's balanced for each possible combination of feature access one can have.
Keeping everything in mind is required. Balancing around the invention system's possibilities is just out of the question.
Duo MoITF - 26:06 | Duo MoKahn - 25:50 | Duo MoLGTF - 29:34 |
Here's about what I'd do. 32.5% S/L defense, 3000+ hp with really close to perma dull pain, MOG up more than every minute and a half, IH about every 3 minutes, 30% S/L resists, and 13% to every thing else. Change this from Brute to Tank scales and I'd be a really happy camper.
Villain Plan by Mids' Villain Designer 1.952
http://www.cohplanner.com/
Click this DataLink to open the build!
SS/Reg S/L: Level 50 Magic Brute
Primary Power Set: Super Strength
Secondary Power Set: Regeneration
Power Pool: Speed
Power Pool: Leaping
Power Pool: Fighting
Power Pool: Leadership
Ancillary Pool: Soul Mastery
Villain Profile:
Level 1: Punch -- KntkC'bat-Acc/Dmg(A), KntkC'bat-Dmg/EndRdx(42), KntkC'bat-Dmg/Rchg(42), KntkC'bat-Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(42), Mako-Acc/EndRdx/Rchg(43), Mako-Dam%(43)
Level 1: Fast Healing -- Numna-Heal(A), Numna-Heal/EndRdx(3), Numna-Heal/Rchg(3)
Level 2: Haymaker -- KntkC'bat-Acc/Dmg(A), KntkC'bat-Dmg/EndRdx(39), KntkC'bat-Dmg/Rchg(39), KntkC'bat-Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(40), Mako-Acc/EndRdx/Rchg(40), Mako-Dam%(40)
Level 4: Reconstruction -- Dct'dW-Heal/EndRdx(A), Dct'dW-EndRdx/Rchg(19), Dct'dW-Heal/Rchg(21), Dct'dW-Heal/EndRdx/Rchg(21), Dct'dW-Rchg(23)
Level 6: Quick Recovery -- P'Shift-EndMod(A), P'Shift-EndMod/Rchg(9), P'Shift-EndMod/Acc(9), P'Shift-End%(19)
Level 8: Knockout Blow -- KntkC'bat-Acc/Dmg(A), KntkC'bat-Dmg/EndRdx(36), KntkC'bat-Dmg/Rchg(37), KntkC'bat-Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(37), Mako-Acc/EndRdx/Rchg(37), Mako-Dam%(39)
Level 10: Dull Pain -- Dct'dW-Heal/EndRdx(A), Dct'dW-EndRdx/Rchg(11), Dct'dW-Heal/Rchg(11), Dct'dW-Heal/EndRdx/Rchg(15), Dct'dW-Rchg(15)
Level 12: Hasten -- RechRdx-I(A), RechRdx-I(13), RechRdx-I(13)
Level 14: Super Speed -- Zephyr-Travel(A), Zephyr-Travel/EndRdx(48), Zephyr-ResKB(48)
Level 16: Integration -- Numna-Heal(A), Numna-Heal/EndRdx(17), Numna-Heal/Rchg(17)
Level 18: Rage -- Rec'dRet-ToHit(A), Rec'dRet-ToHit/Rchg(23), AdjTgt-ToHit/EndRdx/Rchg(25)
Level 20: Resilience -- S'fstPrt-ResDam/EndRdx(A), S'fstPrt-ResKB(25), S'fstPrt-ResDam/Def+(29), TtmC'tng-ResDam/EndRdx(29)
Level 22: Combat Jumping -- LkGmblr-Rchg+(A)
Level 24: Super Jump -- Zephyr-Travel(A)
Level 26: Boxing -- KntkC'bat-Acc/Dmg(A), KntkC'bat-Dmg/EndRdx(27), KntkC'bat-Dmg/Rchg(27), KntkC'bat-Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(34)
Level 28: Instant Healing -- Numna-Heal/Rchg(A), Dct'dW-Heal/Rchg(48), Mrcl-Heal/Rchg(50)
Level 30: Tough -- RctvArm-ResDam(A), RctvArm-ResDam/EndRdx(31), RctvArm-ResDam/Rchg(31), RctvArm-ResDam/EndRdx/Rchg(31)
Level 32: Foot Stomp -- Armgdn-Dmg/Rchg(A), Armgdn-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(33), Armgdn-Acc/Rchg(33), Armgdn-Dmg/EndRdx(33), Armgdn-Dam%(34), FrcFbk-Rechg%(34)
Level 35: Weave -- LkGmblr-Def(A), LkGmblr-Def/EndRdx(36), LkGmblr-Rchg+(36)
Level 38: Maneuvers -- LkGmblr-Rchg+(A), LkGmblr-Def(50), LkGmblr-Def/EndRdx(50)
Level 41: Moment of Glory -- LkGmblr-Rchg+(A), RechRdx-I(43), RechRdx-I(46)
Level 44: Gloom -- Dev'n-Acc/Dmg(A), Dev'n-Dmg/EndRdx(45), Dev'n-Dmg/Rchg(45), Apoc-Dmg/Rchg(45), Apoc-Acc/Rchg(46), Apoc-Dmg/EndRdx(46)
Level 47: Darkest Night -- DarkWD-ToHitDeb/EndRdx(A)
Level 49: Burnout -- RechRdx-I(A)
Level 0: Born In Battle
Level 0: High Pain Threshold
Level 0: Invader
Level 0: Marshal
Level 50: Spiritual Core Paragon
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Level 1: Brawl -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Fury
Level 1: Sprint -- Empty(A)
Level 2: Rest -- Empty(A)
Level 4: Ninja Run
Level 2: Swift -- Run-I(A)
Level 2: Health -- Numna-Regen/Rcvry+(A), Mrcl-Rcvry+(5)
Level 2: Hurdle -- Jump-I(A)
Level 2: Stamina -- P'Shift-EndMod(A), P'Shift-EndMod/Rchg(5), P'Shift-EndMod/Acc(7), P'Shift-End%(7)
Code:
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Again another fully IO setted toon.|
Originally Posted by MajorTractor
Here's about what I'd do. 32.5% S/L defense, 3000+ hp with really close to perma dull pain, MOG up more than every minute and a half, IH about every 3 minutes, 30% S/L resists, and 13% to every thing else. Change this from Brute to Tank scales and I'd be a really happy camper.
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Pointless arguing, people have their opinions and around and around in circles we will all go.
Dark Armour is Borderline. Super Reflexes is Borderline. The game content, especially all the old npcs and where you can find them in their level ranges were never put there with Dark Armour tankers or Super Reflex Tankers in mind. Regen in my opinion is even more borderline.
Yes we could all IO at 50, yes we could all tank some enemy group or another leveling up and actually think we've accomplished something which makes everything possible but overall on the whole the old game content is still there to level through without the new proliferated sets in mind when they were created.
I know that some people could end up with a lvl 50 Regen Tanker tanking, well whatever but the leveling up experience wouldn't be as comfortable as it is whilst fulfilling normal expectations without some avoidance or without beyond normal expectations in terms of support. Too much reaction need apply, too much self conservation clicking as opposed to the job at hand need apply.
He will honor his words; he will definitely carry out his actions. What he promises he will fulfill. He does not care about his bodily self, putting his life and death aside to come forward for another's troubled besiegement. He does not boast about his ability, or shamelessly extol his own virtues. - Sima Qian.
I think it time for the thread to change from "Would regeneration work with tankers?" to "What changes should be made if regeneration is ported to tankers?". Below are my thoughts.
I think the first thing changed should be Dull Pains recharge time. It should be perma on SOs. That would aid the lower level survivability a lot. Reconstruction might also benefit from a slight reduction in recharge.
Secondly, the god-modes. IH should be fully enhanceable and give 100% resist to regeneration debuff, as well as providing some Healing over Time as is seen in time manipulation (I'm not sure on the magnitude of the HoT). This creates a highly effective I WILL NOT DIE! button, and stops one of regeneration's two weaknesses, recharge and regeneration debuff. Secondly, I'd like to see IH and MoG switched. Finally, MoG should have its recharge reduced by 20-30% (to account for the fact that increasing resistance/defense would do nothing for it), and give 50% resistance to recharge debuffs for a long duration, say 60 seconds. Additionally, I think quick recovery should give 20-30% recharge resistance.
What does this do? This allows the tanker have an alpha-taking power more often and at a lower level. Level 18 is usually the point where mobs start dealing considerable alpha damage for my toons, and teams usually start rolling at higher level difficulties around that time. Between MoG's new recharge resistance and quick recovery, the tanker gains the ability to resist his greatest enemy, recharge debuffs. However, because the ability is itself tied to a high recharge power, it won't be available all the time, and won't be perma until high levels of IO investment, making it similar to Shield's Active Defense power (which only gives let's the character get to 95% DDR at high levels of recharge and with HOs).
With these changes, regeneration gains the ability to resist both of its weaknesses, but not at the same time (unless you use IH and MoG at the same, usually overkill). MoG at 18 allows them to survive alpha strikes, substantially helping the set at lower levels, especially in combination with perma-Dull Pain. IH allows the set to have a much more Tier 9-like god mode, especially with it being fully enhanceable and giving regeneration resistance. This would also let tankers deal with end game threats better, such as tower buffed LR and high level AVs, as they would be able to cycle their powers better and use IH as a better god mode, and not worry about running out of powers.
I'd also like to see Revive changed to give 5 seconds of untouchable and a considerable amount of regeneration, maybe 500%. As it is now, it could better be called "Die Twice".
TW/Elec Optimization
It has no bearing on which set is better or any further conditions.
For tanks and for scrappers, and then you have to prove that the scrapper regen has the same percentage of advantage over the fire scrapper as the tanker does.
If you are doing everything right, you will see regen scrapper will have much more sustainable survivability than the fire scrapper, but nearly tie in tankers.
Thats what Arcanaville means by saying regen does not scale with the AT as resist does (or at least thats what Im taking she does, given my own understanding of the topic.)
In other words: just because a regen between scrappers can be as survivable as, perhaps an invuln (pulling off the air, no numbers at hand) does not mean it can do the same in the realm of tankers.