You think NCSoft has let up creating copywrighted toons now that it's free?
By
Aggelakis,
Posted on: 2011-10-07 01:48 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
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I know about this and i was suspecting a lot from the following line: The DEVS can use names that trademarked characters share because they are in complete control of the use of that name, and can avoid any trademark violations. They don't allow US to use them because they can't control how we use the name, and trademark violations are sure to arise if we were allowed t use them|
Originally Posted by ClawsandEffect
The name does NOT count.
Names like Deadpool, Batman, or Superman would count, because they are names that are formed by combining words not normally found together. A name like Inferno, or Ricochet doesn't fall into the same category, because they are simply words. If you create a Ricochet that does not have the same look and backstory/powers as an existing character, there is nothing that can be done about it, because you cannot copyright or trademark a common word. Example: http://marvel.com/universe/Ricochet_%28Johnny_Gallo%29 Now, there is a Praetorian character known as Ricochet. It is allowable because the characters share nothing other than the name, which is a common word (common word: found in the dictionary). The DEVS can use names that trademarked characters share because they are in complete control of the use of that name, and can avoid any trademark violations. They don't allow US to use them because they can't control how we use the name, and trademark violations are sure to arise if we were allowed t use them. |
Responsible players won't create imitations of those by any chance. I have been talking about the common words and i agree with your point. I can't complaint at all since we can use some common world names (not Venom, Phantasm) but others that in the past were blocked and they have being nice enough to let us use them.
Still in my opinion, it is unfair to every responsible that will create a unique character with common words that happens to be the name of a famous comic book/manga/anime/video game character.
Still maybe that can change just like with some other names like Spider and Arachnid. Some of the Devs already recognize the good actions of responsible players.
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Actually, when it comes to player characters, the devs always err on the side of caution and generic you. If you don't believe me, ask the character that once went by the name of Persil, a popular brand of washing powder in Europe that has zero connection to superheroes in anyway and is ACTUALLY French for Parsley.
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Originally Posted by ClawsandEffect
The name does NOT count.
Names like Deadpool, Batman, or Superman would count, because they are names that are formed by combining words not normally found together. A name like Inferno, or Ricochet doesn't fall into the same category, because they are simply words. If you create a Ricochet that does not have the same look and backstory/powers as an existing character, there is nothing that can be done about it, because you cannot copyright or trademark a common word. Example: http://marvel.com/universe/Ricochet_%28Johnny_Gallo%29 Now, there is a Praetorian character known as Ricochet. It is allowable because the characters share nothing other than the name, which is a common word (common word: found in the dictionary). The DEVS can use names that trademarked characters share because they are in complete control of the use of that name, and can avoid any trademark violations. They don't allow US to use them because they can't control how we use the name, and trademark violations are sure to arise if we were allowed t use them. |
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I actually heard from someone that there was a 'Green Lantern' SG on a server, and DC ok'd it? Anyone know if this is true?
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I expect that it would be considered more of a problem not less of one actually.
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Originally Posted by The_South
Shame. Kinda figured with a lack of money being made off of characters resembling other characters, it'd be less of a problem.
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The person giving you this information was probably sniffing glue. DC would never approve anything not on their own MMO, and even if they did, NCSoft would not have the right to use those characters without entering into a very public, legally binding agreement of some sort.
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Originally Posted by Dark Energon
I actually heard from someone that there was a 'Green Lantern' SG on a server, and DC ok'd it? Anyone know if this is true?
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There was a Green Lantern inspired SG on Virtue for a while. If, by inspired, you mean 'space cops who wear green,' that is.
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Originally Posted by Obsidius
The person giving you this information was probably sniffing glue. DC would never approve anything not on their own MMO, and even if they did, NCSoft would not have the right to use those characters without entering into a very public, legally binding agreement of some sort.
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I'm pretty sure NcSoft is still making money off of people playing their game. If they're not, they made a really bad business design decision somewhere.|
Originally Posted by The_South
Shame. Kinda figured with a lack of money being made off of characters resembling other characters, it'd be less of a problem.
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Originally Posted by The_South
Making someone original based on what what the game has doesn't push it as much cause it's a character designed for this game and it has the parts you want, for the most part.
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If you really want to have fun duplicating copyrighted characters with the character creator, there's nothing stopping you from doing that. You can even safe the costumes on your hard drive and admire them whenever you want. You just can't use those costumes in game (without risking being genericized, that is).
The only time a character copyright doesn't cause in-game issues is when the player holds said copyright.
The #1 example is Jim Butcher, who plays Harry Dresden (a Grav/FF 'Troller) on Virtue. Otherwise, don't do it. Marvel will get it's panties in a bunch.
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To the OP, you REALLY need to study copyright and trademark law if you think you can get away with making a trademarked character now. (A healthy dose of reality couldn't hurt either)
To start off with, the game is not totally free. They're not giving everything out and say "go nuts". There's a subscription still in place and microtransactions, so NCSoft and Paragon are still making money off the game. For there to be any defence against a copyright claim the defendant must prove that zero dollars are being made off of it, and that defence is shaky at best.
Next, even if the game WAS totally free, trademark laws require the owner of the trademark pursue legal action against anyone infringing on it, whether or not there's a profit involved. Only parodies are protected and those protections are diminishing at a rapid rate. Seeing as Paragon still holds legal rights to all characters made in the game, they must prove parody in use, which they cannot do as they did not originally create the game character.
So no, they will still generic any trademarked character, in fact it's probably more active with the new free players.
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Actually, not at all.
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Originally Posted by The_South
Cause man, you know you wanna make all your favorite heroes and villains. Cause you know it's possible.
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Wrong, wrong and wrong.|
Originally Posted by ClawsandEffect
The name does NOT count.
Names like Deadpool, Batman, or Superman would count, because they are names that are formed by combining words not normally found together. |
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| The DEVS can use names that trademarked characters share because they are in complete control of the use of that name, and can avoid any trademark violations. They don't allow US to use them because they can't control how we use the name, and trademark violations are sure to arise if we were allowed t use them. |
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Surprised this thread took off. Figured I'd just get a few answers cause that's all I needed. None the less I'm glad to finally get the whole story on the marvel lawsuit. I'd only know the very basics previously.
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Originally Posted by Chase_Arcanum
Correct.
This gets into the murky gray area of trademark law. Many times, a company doesn't have to WIN any damages in a lawsuit during a trademark case, they just have to either get the unsanctioned use of trademark to cease or have a judge decide that the act in question is not actually infringing. Either way, if you'r sued, you're out thousands of $$ in court costs unless you settle early. This is an area of law where it is virtually impossible for you to countersue for court costs if you win. ------ Now, Marvel comics doesn't sue cosplayers for wearing non-sanctioned, non-licensed spider man costumes, but they may sue the person who makes and sells them. That's why they went after NCSoft/Cryptic... arguing that this was equivalent to people selling unlicensed versions of their costume. NCSoft / Cryptic argued that their costume creator was equivalent to giving out a "box of crayons" to the players to express their imagination in-- saying that this was like Marvel suing crayola for letting kids draw unlicensed spider man costumes. What was telling here was where much of Marvel's case started to unravel. All the examples Marvel provided the courts showing how well you could copy their characters was done by Marvel agents (employees or employees of the law firm) tinkering around in costume creator. NCSoft argued that since these were sanctioned Marvel employees that had the permission to make these characters, then there was no trademark infringement shown, and therefore, no facilitation on their part. That put Marvel in an awkward position- to PROVE infringement, they'd have to identify an actual infringer (probably by identifying the character and server and requiring NCSoft to supply the contact info for that customer to the court. Marvel would then have to name that person in the court case -- and get really really bad PR for essentially targeting a fan that's cosplaying their trademark character online. This didn't kill their whole case, though, so NCSoft still had some risk of judgements against them if they pushed this ahead in trial. Instead, both parties agreed to settle with undisclosed details. We can suspect that these included some assurance from NCSoft that they'd show some diligence in preventing infringements by players and some permission from Marvel for them to do certain things. Money may or may not have changed hands. All this is speculation. What we know is that NCSoft was happy to NOT get a potential cash judgement that would damage their business, plus get clear rules that will keep them out of lawsuit mayhem going forward from Marvel, and Marvel's happy because they have established that they're still protecting the trademark. The only ones that aren't happy are those of us that hoped for clear case law defining what users can and can't do to avoid lawsuit in the future. |
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I wasn't actually planning on making anything marvel or dc. I just meant fictional characters in general. Like even some really unknown character from Bomberman 64, or some other very underplayed game.
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Originally Posted by Chris_Zuercher
It doesn't really matter if you're making money off it or not. If you're using one of Marvel's or DC's trademarks to create something that can compete against their products or their officially licensed products, those companies have can issue a complaint against you. And given that these days Marvel has a game where you can play as Spider-Man, Captain America or Wolverine along with other players, they probably have a stronger case for protecting their copyright than they did when they made their lawsuit.
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Guys I think you're misunderstanding me here. I said heroes and villains, not superheroes and super villains. I didn't mean comic book folks specifically. I meant anything. I figured everyone at some point wanted to try to make someone that already existed. Just for fun at least.
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Originally Posted by Aura_Familia
Pretty much this.
ESPECIALLY with some of the idiotic moves being made by DC and parts of Marvel. For the first time in a long time I want absolutely nothing to do with 90% of the characters of either universe/company. Once I find a new image, I'll be replacing my avatar. |
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There's nothing stopping you from doing it, but if someone recognizes the character and decides to report you, that character will be genericed. This is not because of the lawsuit, but because of the policy that resulted from the lawsuit, which covers all trademarked characters. So you should play such a character with that understanding.|
Originally Posted by The_South
Guys I think you're misunderstanding me here. I said heroes and villains, not superheroes and super villains. I didn't mean comic book folks specifically. I meant anything. I figured everyone at some point wanted to try to make someone that already existed. Just for fun at least.
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An obscure character from Bomberman 64 would probably not be recognized (especially given the stylistic differences between that game and this one) as long as the character's bio didn't reference (or even hint at) that character's backstory, but you never know.
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28 trademarks on "Ricochet", for everything from landscaping colorants to chewing gum. Notably, the Marvel character isn't one of them.|
Originally Posted by ClawsandEffect
If you create a Ricochet that does not have the same look and backstory/powers as an existing character, there is nothing that can be done about it, because you cannot copyright or trademark a common word.
Example: http://marvel.com/universe/Ricochet_%28Johnny_Gallo%29 |
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Originally Posted by LordLundar
Next, even if the game WAS totally free, trademark laws require the owner of the trademark pursue legal action against anyone infringing on it, whether or not there's a profit involved. Only parodies are protected and those protections are diminishing at a rapid rate. Seeing as Paragon still holds legal rights to all characters made in the game, they must prove parody in use, which they cannot do as they did not originally create the game character.
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In a City of Heroes context, that means I can describe my hero as getting his powers from drinking Coca-Cola with no problems. Naming him Coca-Cola Man, however, could be ruled an infringement, since it could confuse people into thinking my character has some relationship to the Coca-Cola Company.
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Actually, they've had the "no infringement" rules in since the game launched, even before the Marvel lawsuit. It was even mentioned in the original Prima guide with a cute little cartoon about Neo and Wolverine clones. The Marvel lawsuit just brought more attention to the rules that were already in place. That's one of the things that helped them in the lawsuit in that they already had rules in place telling players this was not allowed and had a policy to remove the infringements (Generic costumes, generic names, wiped Description and Battlecry, etc.).
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Originally Posted by DarkGob
There's nothing stopping you from doing it, but if someone recognizes the character and decides to report you, that character will be genericed. This is not because of the lawsuit, but because of the policy that resulted from the lawsuit, which covers all trademarked characters. So you should play such a character with that understanding.
An obscure character from Bomberman 64 would probably not be recognized (especially given the stylistic differences between that game and this one) as long as the character's bio didn't reference (or even hint at) that character's backstory, but you never know. |
If the game spit out 20 dollar bills people would complain that they weren't sequentially numbered. If they were sequentially numbered people would complain that they weren't random enough.
Black Pebble is my new hero.
I don't get why people have to copy established superheroes anyway. It's a game where you can make your own superhero. Besides having a girl talk to them, its a nerds biggest dream come true.
I know what the problem is. These days young kids don't have to use their imagination when they play, so they grow up without one. Every idea is spoon fed to them. They can't even have an imaginary friend without mommy and daddy freaking out, and taking them to the doctor to get medicated.
All in all though, I blame video games.
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then explain "Wolverine" and "Phoenix"
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Originally Posted by ClawsandEffect
The name does NOT count.
Names like Deadpool, Batman, or Superman would count, because they are names that are formed by combining words not normally found together. A name like Inferno, or Ricochet doesn't fall into the same category, because they are simply words. If you create a Ricochet that does not have the same look and backstory/powers as an existing character, there is nothing that can be done about it, because you cannot copyright or trademark a common word. Example: http://marvel.com/universe/Ricochet_%28Johnny_Gallo%29 Now, there is a Praetorian character known as Ricochet. It is allowable because the characters share nothing other than the name, which is a common word (common word: found in the dictionary). The DEVS can use names that trademarked characters share because they are in complete control of the use of that name, and can avoid any trademark violations. They don't allow US to use them because they can't control how we use the name, and trademark violations are sure to arise if we were allowed t use them. |
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Well a wolverine is an animal that shares some attributes with skunks|
Originally Posted by BrandX
then explain "Wolverine" and "Phoenix"
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A phoenix is a mythical bird known for immolating itself upon death, and having a baby phoenix emerge from the ashes
Phoenix is also a place in Arizona
You know, whenever this topic comes up, the exact same arguments reappear, almost word-for-word. The same pronouncements are made about legal terms and how it is legally impossible for Marvel, NCSoft or anyone else to enforce or otherwise do anything about cloned characters from published sources, so clone away.
The Sixteen Tons are going to get dropped on cloned characters. I will leave to others to litigate what they consider a heinous legal infringement on their liberties.
Wouldn't it save a lot of time and effort to simply necro one of the thousands of threads that have covered this exact ground in the exact same terms with the exact legal pronouncements by people claiming to be experts?
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Usually I agree, but the OP's under the (rather delusional) belief that the change in the payment system somehow renders standing copyright and trademark laws null. It just needs a new application of the clue by four, and given the OP's attempt to defend it despite being told otherwise, several applications.|
Originally Posted by Melancton
Wouldn't it save a lot of time and effort to simply necro one of the thousands of threads that have covered this exact ground in the exact same terms with the exact legal pronouncements by people claiming to be experts?
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Nope, because that would violate the forum rules and the mods would come in and lock the thread.|
Originally Posted by Melancton
Wouldn't it save a lot of time and effort to simply necro one of the thousands of threads that have covered this exact ground in the exact same terms with the exact legal pronouncements by people claiming to be experts? |
Of course, that would shorten the new arguments.
If the game spit out 20 dollar bills people would complain that they weren't sequentially numbered. If they were sequentially numbered people would complain that they weren't random enough.
Black Pebble is my new hero.
I want to make my own.
ESPECIALLY with some of the idiotic moves being made by DC and parts of Marvel.
For the first time in a long time I want absolutely nothing to do with 90% of the characters of either universe/company.
Once I find a new image, I'll be replacing my avatar.
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