Discussion: Featured Items at the Paragon Market - 10/4/11
By
Agonist_NA,
Posted on: 2011-10-04 10:36 in News, Events and Announcement Discussion
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Fixed
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Originally Posted by Sardan
If it works out, it'll be good for all of us because it'll keep the pipes open that deliver new content/powers/costumes, which we all enjoy paying for.
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I'm not sure if English is maybe a second language for your or if you're just sort of childish, but I'll try and reply anyway. |
Originally Posted by Noobian_Prince
If you didn't PAY for COV when it came out, did you have access to the brute, stalker, mastermind, etc. powersets? No. If you didn't pay for GR, could you access dual pistols or demon summoning? Also no. Forget "early access", if you didn't buy it, you couldn't play it.
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Again, EXPANSIONS are, by their definition, not "regular" content. To try and say that them suddenly deciding to make powersets "pay" the same as making entire "expansions" pay is...well...VERY poor logic.
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BTW, a number of MMO players had the "established expectations" that their games would be around as long as they wanted to play them. If you've been following the industry at all lately, you'd know that those expectations were dashed as those games are simply gone. So you've already gotten 21 free updates with new powersets, zones, capabilities (like inventions or Ouroboros) and you want "MORE cool stuff" but supported by revenue from Premium players instead? Nice |
Im sorry, does this have a point? No one is talking about one side's expectations. We're talking about how those expectations are suddenly changed, but we're, I assume, hopefully supposed to keep paying as if they aren't. And what I said was I wanted exactly what I've been paying for, and am being asked to continue paying for. Anything else would be supported by me as a VIP or someone else as a freeb buying it through the market. I actually said EXACTLY that. You may want to go reread.
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Actually, yes you did have to WAIT much longer for issues or updates and SAVE for expansions and booster packs. (And you couldn't get any of them for free, no matter HOW long you waited.) |
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So you want LESS content? This is confusing. |
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When Origins came out two months after the Party pack, did you go into a snit because you had to choose what to spend your money on? Or because you were saving up for the Animal pack, then all of a sudden Steampunk came out? |
Of course, I haven't gone in to a "snit" now either, but Im beginning to think you're not mature enough to disagree with someone without somehow thinking "they're stoopid."
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NCSOFT is in the business of making MONEY ? Gasp! Alert the media! |
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| But nobody's twisting your arm or begging you. If you think Premium makes more sense, then by all means, go that route. Just kindly stop whining that because you got some things in the past for free, you expect that to go on forever. |
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Originally Posted by Noobian_Prince
All of the above were ADDED for free in the first 5 issues. Would you care to try again explaining how expansions are a "completely seperate issue" ? |
ADDITIONAL things, like...say...an entirely different WORLD, which CoV was, including level 1-40 content at launch, all new archetypes (not just powersets), contacts, graphics, etc. were an additional charge.
If you recall, for a LONG time you were paying an additional monthly charge for them to develop that content as well. And when it was developed you got it on the day it was released as part of that monthly sub.
You just totally proved my point, man. Our monthly subs should cover non-expansion content. Expansion content has ALWAYS been different, but has always been much bigger...almost to the point of being a seperate game.
What they're doing now, it seems, is dividing up what WAS regular non-expansion content and asking us to buy it. That's their decision, but for me, at least, it's very likely that at that point I won't see paying the 200 a year as worthwhile, since it no longer includes those things. It maybe includes "some" of them.
Not everything done now *must* be justified by precedent.
New model is new model.
Subscribers get more now than they did before. Period.
Subscribers are also faced with even more content on top of that which, if they want to have, must pay more for. Period.
That's the new model for subscribers. What was done in the past is the past.
The model of paying one price which gives access to everything is gone (not that it ever existed in the past considering Booster and Expansions). And now, Powersets will be part of the "extra stuff" which you either save your monthly Paragon Points for, or, you pay money for. It doesn't matter whether Powersets were 'always included' or not. Many of the new Powersets are not included now/anymore in the base subscriptions. Just the way it is.
One can say they don't like that. Fine. One *can't* say the Devs shouldn't do it this way because of the past precedent. That's just a non-starter. New model is new model.
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And as customers, we can voice that what we get for subs under the "new model" is no longer worth 200 dollars a year to us. We feel we'd be better off spending about 150 a year on the content we want. That would give me almost 1200 points a month to spend. That's right, 1200. At that rate I could buy a new powerset EVERY month and still have the same amount of paragon points left that VIPs have to spend on other junk. For me, trying new powersets from 1-50 is pretty much what I pay my sub for. If I don't get that like I used to under the current model, I'll likely unsubscribe. For me, three mission "signature arcs" aren't worth it. Incarnate content DEFINITELY isn't worth it. The market...not really worth it since I can now use some of that 1200 pts a month I was spending on the few sets I did want. I'll still come out speding less, and NCsoft will, sadly, come out losing 50 dollars a year in this situation. |
Originally Posted by Zombie Man
Not everything done now *must* be justified by precedent.
New model is new model. Subscribers get more now than they did before. Period. Subscribers are also faced with even more content on top of that which, if they want to have, must pay more for. Period. That's the new model for subscribers. What was done in the past is the past. The model of paying one price which gives access to everything is gone (not that it ever existed in the past considering Booster and Expansions). And now, Powersets will be part of the "extra stuff" which you either save your monthly Paragon Points for, or, you pay money for. It doesn't matter whether Powersets were 'always included' or not. Many of the new Powersets are not included now/anymore in the base subscriptions. Just the way it is. One can say they don't like that. Fine. One *can't* say the Devs shouldn't do it this way because of the past precedent. That's just a non-starter. New model is new model. |
They need to hear that as they adjust their new model, so that they don't end up losing money under it.
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Whether you like it or not, you cannot convince me I'm spending cash I'm not spending. Whether I'm spending more or less money for more or less content is not a matter of opinion or conjecture. I'm not spending more money because as of yet I haven't spent *any* actual cash. Trying to convince me I *have to* spend cash when I'm not spending cash is something between sad and hilarious.
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Originally Posted by Cptn_Courageous
Whether you like it or not, whenever you spend Paragon Points you're spending value.
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I see. From your point of view virtual credit is not actual credit even when you've paid real cash for it. Of course you may not have bought anything from the store, in which case you haven't spent anything...in the store. But if you have purchased anything from the store you have spent the equivalent of actual cash... because as has been stated 400 paragon points is worth $5.|
Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Whether you like it or not, you cannot convince me I'm spending cash I'm not spending. Whether I'm spending more or less money for more or less content is not a matter of opinion or conjecture. I'm not spending more money because as of yet I haven't spent *any* actual cash. Trying to convince me I *have to* spend cash when I'm not spending cash is something between sad and hilarious.
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And as for your monthly 400 paragon points they 'give' you... they're not free... you pay for those with your subscription money. So yeah... you really did purchase them with real money.
Nothing in City of Heroes Freedom is really free. You're either buying it with your subscription fee, or with the money you spend on paragon points. And even the Free players are not playing for free--they're just being carried like so much dead weight by the people actually paying money to play this game (the subscribers) or people paying cash for paragon points. Without people actually paying money this game would not exist.
So yes, you are spending money and your money is not going as far as it used to, no matter how much you hoard your points. If you can't face it that's your problem, but I'm telling you there are crocodiles in your papyrus.
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I'll accept this argument when you point out where the devs decided that the monthly fee is being reduced from $15 to $10, and where I can buy a month for $10. Otherwise, I'm getting free points with the monthly fee I've been paying all along.
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Originally Posted by Cptn_Courageous
I see. From your point of view virtual credit is not actual credit even when you've paid real cash for it. Of course you may not have bought anything from the store, in which case you haven't spent anything...in the store. But if you have purchased anything from the store you have spent the equivalent of actual cash... because as has been stated 400 paragon points is worth $5.
And as for your monthly 400 paragon points they 'give' you... they're not free... you pay for those with your subscription money. So yeah... you really did purchase them with real money. Nothing in City of Heroes Freedom is really free. You're either buying it with your subscription fee, or with the money you spend on paragon points. And even the Free players are not playing for free--they're just being carried like so much dead weight by the people actually paying money to play this game (the subscribers) or people paying cash for paragon points. Without people actually paying money this game would not exist. So yes, you are spending money and your money is not going as far as it used to, no matter how much you hoard your points. If you can't face it that's your problem, but I'm telling you there are crocodiles in your papyrus. |
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Originally Posted by PRAF68_EU
Dispari has more than enough credability, and certainly doesn't need to borrow any from you.
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Considering your grammar above (and elsewhere) as well as your spelling errors (like "seperate"), you probably shouldn't go there.|
Originally Posted by opprime28
I'm not sure if English is maybe a second language for your.
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You stated: "You have NEVER had to pay for powersets before." That's a direct quote. When I (and others) pointed out this is false, you tried to weasel out by claiming that expansions don't count. Yet you fail to give a coherent explanation as to WHY expansions are inherently different.
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| You DO realize you just proved my point, right? None of the above was an expansion. |
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In the second part, I had just copied some of your statements that appear to indicate that you were in favor of the new model pricing since you thought you were get "MORE cool stuff" (your words) at no extra cost to you but from "added revenue" from Premium players. (I'm ignoring the self-evident fallacy of getting revenue from free players and your confusing VIP and Premium customers.)
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| By the way, I never got ANYTHING for free. I paid 180 dollars a year or more for it all (actually, double that since I have two accounts.) |
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| Of course, I haven't gone in to a "snit" now either, but Im beginning to think you're not mature enough to disagree with someone without somehow thinking "they're stoopid." |
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| Please point to the part of my post where I "whined" or where I didn't explain, very rationally, my reasoning. TYIA! |
OTOH, statements like:
- "I don't WANNA wait and save!"
- "But I have EXPECTATIONS!"
- "I've never had to do that before!"
- "I want it now!"
and
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| I dont want to have to start worrying about whether I should buy the new one this month that KIND of interests me because one might come out NEXT month that REALLY interests me and if I spend my points this month I have to wait two more months to play that one. |
(BTW, you aren't helping your case with illogical statements like:
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| having [items] for "sale" to VIPs makes no sense for either party. There is no benefit to either VIPs or NCsoft. |
@ Purgatorio
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When it's up, that's what Beta/Test(?) is for. ;-)
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Originally Posted by Cyber_naut
Now that we have to buy powersets, could we at least see what the powersets do statistically before we buy them?
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Issue 21 has, for subscribers, who spend only 15 dollars:| So yes, you are spending money and your money is not going as far as it used to |
1 new free powerset
1 low level trial
1 incarnate trial
1 new mini-tf story arc every month
1 or 2 new powersets proliferated to all but one archetype.
The Imperial Defense costume set.
First Ward and all of its content.
New tutorial
New Starter arcs and "extended training arcs".
Whatever I wanna spend 400 points on.
Find me an issue release in recent times that stacks up against that. When was I getting more for my money?
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All that and a completely remade ultra-mode Atlas Park along with a partially redone Mercy Island!|
Originally Posted by Teeto_K
Issue 21 has, for subscribers, who spend only 15 dollars:
1 new free powerset 1 low level trial 1 incarnate trial 1 new mini-tf story arc every month 1 or 2 new powersets proliferated to all but one archetype. The Imperial Defense costume set. First Ward and all of its content. New tutorial New Starter arcs and "extended training arcs". Whatever I wanna spend 400 points on. Find me an issue release in recent times that stacks up against that. When was I getting more for my money? |
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Originally Posted by Cyber_naut
Now that we have to buy powersets, could we at least see what the powersets do statistically before we buy them?
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Well you can, if you know the power names, using [*powername*] in a Chat Channel in the game and then clicking on it. Obviously that's a cumbersome way to go about it though.
Ideally the "Create Character" pages should let you pick a locked set and create with it right up until the last screen where it should block you, then you could check out both the powers stats and the animation and customization options before you commit.
For the moment the best advice is probably "leave it a couple of days and see what people on the forums or mids think".
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Apples and oranges are both fruit. |
Originally Posted by opprime28
An expansion is a completely seperate issue. An expansion was a packaged deal that gave you new powersets, new zones, new arcs, tfs, etc.
Thats apples and oranges. |
(ie just because two things are different does not make them incomparable)
You paid for Demon Summoning and Dual Pistols. It might have been as part of a bundle as oppose to an a la carte choice but you paid for access to them.
10 quid is a lot to pay for a Set. But 0 because you got points via your subscription isn't. In many cases the real cost of Street Justice is at least partly part of your "subscription bundle"
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Actually, I "went there" because you seemed incapable of disageeing with someone without jumping immediatly to "they're whining and they want free stuffs nao!" I made it very clear in my post that I was neither whining NOR wanted anything "free." |
Originally Posted by Noobian_Prince
Considering your grammar above (and elsewhere) as well as your spelling errors (like "seperate"), you probably shouldn't go there.
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You stated: "You have NEVER had to pay for powersets before." That's a direct quote. When I (and others) pointed out this is false, you tried to weasel out by claiming that expansions don't count. Yet you fail to give a coherent explanation as to WHY expansions are inherently different. |
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Not exactly. You claimed that expansions were different from issues or updates because they "gave you new powersets, new zones, new arcs, tfs, etc." I pointed out the same was true for updates. So what's the inherent difference between a paid expansion and a smaller free update -- the packaging? If GR was DLC, would that mean it's no longer an expansion? |
I already addressed this. Expansions are massive jumps in content bundled together, expanding the game somehow to a whole different world (or side, or whatever you want to call it.) In essence, they're new games within the game. I already stated that, almost word for word. Your assertion that because these massive bundles of content included powersets, you HAVE paid for powersets before is simplistic at best. It equates to saying that, since McDonalds has always charged for value meals, and the hamburgers in value meals have ketchup on them, McDonalds isn't doing anything new by suddenly deciding next week that if you want ketchup packets with your value meal you'll have to pay an additional 50 cents per packet. It's not the same thing, and everyone knows it. McDonalds has always given away ketchup as complimentary when you purchase food from them. It was "part of the deal" so to speak. Charging for it now is something new. Do they have the right to do so? Yes. If doing so will make me less likely to buy the meal from them should I, as a consumer, let them know? Yes. That's the way business works.
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Actually YOU were. (That's why "established expectations" is in quote marks. I'm quoting you.) As to the point, I was trying to get you to realize that even though you may have an expectation based on the past, it's foolish to presume that it was always be that way. In the second part, I had just copied some of your statements that appear to indicate that you were in favor of the new model pricing since you thought you were get "MORE cool stuff" (your words) at no extra cost to you but from "added revenue" from Premium players. (I'm ignoring the self-evident fallacy of getting revenue from free players and your confusing VIP and Premium customers.) |
As I said, again, muptiple times, I was fine with f2p. It meant I would get what I've always gotten for my 15 dollas a month (maintianing the expectations set by past practice) and I would have the option to purchase more when I desire. The devs would be able to live up to it because between myself and the new players, they would be getting new revenue for the new stuff they are putting out. To go back to your car analogy, it's like my automaker suddenly deciding to hire 5 engineers who will be designing new features for the car I have been leasing for the past 6.5 years. I continue to get my car for my current lease fees just as I always have, including all of the maintenance and upkeep that was part of my original lease deal. If and when I want some of the new features I can buy them at additional cost, just like people who aren't in a lease. The problem I'm having is that a month in to it, it looks like they're moving oil changes from "covered maintenance" to "new features" and offering me "free points" to pay for them...only the free points only cover one oil change every 7000 miles, not 3500. It's not enough points to cover it, and Im feeling like Im getting less for my lease price, not more. Having a second car Im leasing, it makes it even less appealing. I may decide it's time to trade my lease in for another.
Again, time may show this to NOT be the case, and this back to back and high cost pricing may be a fluke as we get started, but I need to voice my concern about it to make sure they're aware of how at least part of their customer base feels.
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If this is you being mature, color me relieved you're not the "snit" type. |
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When you say something like, "I don't think the current pricing model is to my advantage. I think I would get a greater benefit from not paying a subscription and spending the $15/month on Paragon Points instead." is an example of making a case for a proposed action. Regardless of whether someone agrees or not, this is NOT mere bellyaching since it gives objective REASONS for the argument. OTOH, statements like:
are mere unreasonable rants and = whines. Do you see the distinction? (BTW, you aren't helping your case with illogical statements like: without anything to back it up. |
THAT is what made me think there was either a language barrier, or a maturity one.
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No, actually you'll still be getting the free oil changes (as we'll still be getting free power sets, the devs have stated this many times) and given the option to get additional oil changes with your free points or hard cash.
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Originally Posted by opprime28
To go back to your car analogy, it's like my automaker suddenly deciding to hire 5 mechanics who will be designing new features for the car I lease. I continue to get my car for my current lease fees just as I always have, including all of the maintenance and upkeep that was part of my lease deal. If and when I want some of the new features I can but them. Except a month in to it it looks like they're moving oil changes to "new features" and offering me "free points" to pay for them...only the free points only cover one oil change per 7000 miles. It's not enough to cover it, and Im feeling like Im getting less for my lease price, not more. Having a second car Im leasing, it makes it even less appealing. I may decide it's time to trade my lease in for another.
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Originally Posted by Forbin_Project
Then it's time for them to get off the cross, use the wood to build a bridge, and get over it.
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So, you're complaining that NCSoft is offering you a new option that allows you to spend less money and still access all the game content that you want to access? And you want them to stop doing that and instead go back to the model where you had to pay more, for content you didn't want?|
Originally Posted by opprime28
If I don't get that like I used to under the current model, I'll likely unsubscribe. For me, three mission "signature arcs" aren't worth it. Incarnate content DEFINITELY isn't worth it. The market...not really worth it since I can now use some of that 1200 pts a month I was spending on the few sets I did want. I'll still come out speding less, and NCsoft will, sadly, come out losing 50 dollars a year in this situation.
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That's...very charitable.
Dude, they're a commercial organization. You don't have to feel bad about taking advantage of their pricing structure. Cancel your sub and spend the $50 on something else!
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Sorry but when they launched COH: they heavily marketed the "issues" as "free" expansions divided/spread into part threw out the year, we helped finance by our month subscriptions. Thus he/her she is about right, we are getting less in our "mini expansions each time" I would go as far as to say the "issues" have slowly changed to micro expansions and now thanks to the market, will slowly change to become even smaller. I hope paragon studios proves me wrong over the next 8 issues, but we'll see.
I think the very, very high prices at the market go a long way to negate the feeling of "free vip points". After at least a year of subscribers complaining that we weren't getting the costume sets and whatnot that people came to expect with the issues, suddenly we have a giant stockpile of sets, costumes, bells and whistles that they are willing to sell to us, and only the most anemic of which (circle of thorns bundle, the 3 mish signature story) are priced the same as the monthly stipend.
Anything, any one thing, whether it be a powerset or costume slot or a travel board means sitting around for a month waiting for points to accumulate (while you also pay your sub), a system designed to make those who feel part of the "community" to feel left out while they wait.
The game used to be about keeping us playing and paying. Now it is about keeping us playing and paying, and also paying.
I am personally not spending more, but it is because I resent strongarm marketing tactics. It might even result in my paying less, since I used to buy the boosters, but now feel that paying for extra points is like giving the dog a treat when it gets mud on the couch.
The pricing strategy for the Paragon Market is eroding my goodwill as a long time player. I no longer feel happy to throw an extra ten bucks to help fill the coffers of that game I like.
But I'm sure I'm in the minority, so no harm done, right?
Anything that stays stagnant and doesn't evolve with the times is doomed to failure. This game never would've lasted this long had it not grown to be more than what it was at launch.
Be glad that the Dev's are smart enough to know when to adopt something and when not to. If they'd tried this in 2007 we wouldn't be here talking right now. The market wasn't ready at that point and neither were we.
Changing to this model is more than just about greed. While true NCSoft most likely did this in order to gain more profit, they also did it to ensure our beloved game remains profitable for at least another few years.
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And I counter that anything that significantly changes a game and ticks off a substantial portion of it's player base follows the path of SOE. |
Originally Posted by MaestroMavius
Anything that stays stagnant and doesn't evolve with the times is doomed to failure. This game never would've lasted this long had it not grown to be more than what it was at launch.
Be glad that the Dev's are smart enough to know when to adopt something and when not to. If they'd tried this in 2007 we wouldn't be here talking right now. The market wasn't ready at that point and neither were we. Changing to this model is more than just about greed. While true NCSoft most likely did this in order to gain more profit, they also did it to ensure our beloved game remains profitable for at least another few years. |
I am ticked. I feel that the VIP benefits were misrepresented and we were set up. It's all good. I've been playing this game for 7 years. Perhaps it's time for a change. And this change makes a good exit point... after all we can drop to premium and go off and play other games... and there are a ton of new games out there coming up.
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So... and please correct me if I'm wrong... you misunderstood something the Devs said, and now you're unhappy that they're not fulfilling your misunderstanding, yes?|
Originally Posted by Cptn_Courageous
And I counter that anything that significantly changes a game and ticks off a substantial portion of it's player base follows the path of SOE.
I am ticked. I feel that the VIP benefits were misrepresented and we were set up. It's all good. I've been playing this game for 7 years. Perhaps it's time for a change. And this change makes a good exit point... after all we can drop to premium and go off and play other games... and there are a ton of new games out there coming up. |
Not really sure how to help you with that.
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Still CoHzy after all these years...
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(Sarcasm alert!)|
Originally Posted by Dispari
I'll accept this argument when you point out where the devs decided that the monthly fee is being reduced from $15 to $10, and where I can buy a month for $10. Otherwise, I'm getting free points with the monthly fee I've been paying all along.
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Well, several forumites were trying to convince those concerned about what Freedom meant for VIPs in the game that NCSoft is paying us $5 a month because they give us $5 in points, $5 in a signature arc, and $10 in a server transfer every month.
There you go. Your monthly payment is now -$5.
You're right, we've gotten a lot of new power sets in a very short amount of time, and we do in fact have to pay for StJ and BR if we want them right now. I paid for Beam Rifle because it was on sale. I don't have any character concept for it, nor do I have any particular inclination to play it, either immediate or in the near future.
Street Justice I can see myself playing, but I'm not buying today. I'm waiting a month or so to see if it goes on sale, and if it hasn't by then, I'll have accumulated more than enough points to cover it, on top of the spare points I already have.
So far, I've purchased Beam Rifle, using the points I got free for being a subscriber, and the Barbarian Set, also using some of those points, but then replacing them with 15 dollars worth of points, because it's a costume set, and those have often been separate. I have enough points, right now, to get Street Justice, and I did before I bought the Barbarian set.
Staff fighting, I've heard from several places, is intended to be a free set, at least to VIPs. It would, however, be ironic if it was only to VIPs, and people who went Premium because they felt it was a better deal then had to buy a power set which would have been free if they stayed subscribed.
Titan Weapons I intend to buy immediately when it comes out, which I suspect will be closer to december.
Tell me though, if NCSoft puts out a new power set every single month, how many people do you think will be complaining?
In any case, if McDonalds started charging for packets of ketchup, discussing the economic value and whether McDonalds would make or lose money out of the deal while eating your meal in the McDonalds dining area will not convince McDonalds to give back your free ketchup. Neither will discussing it with the staff of any individual store, who are rarely consulted in what changes ought to be made to the company. Buy the ketchup, or don't, and if that doesn't change the situation, and you cannot live without the ketchup, then go back to buying the ketchup, or go to Burger King.
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And I am perfectly happy with that logic, because, after all, my sub never used to get those items and those are the costs of those items to non-VIP's.|
Originally Posted by Morgan Reed
(Sarcasm alert!)
Well, several forumites were trying to convince those concerned about what Freedom meant for VIPs in the game that NCSoft is paying us $5 a month because they give us $5 in points, $5 in a signature arc, and $10 in a server transfer every month. There you go. Your monthly payment is now -$5. |
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Originally Posted by Lacklight
In any case, if McDonalds started charging for packets of ketchup, discussing the economic value and whether McDonalds would make or lose money out of the deal while eating your meal in the McDonalds dining area will not convince McDonalds to give back your free ketchup. Neither will discussing it with the staff of any individual store, who are rarely consulted in what changes ought to be made to the company. Buy the ketchup, or don't, and if that doesn't change the situation, and you cannot live without the ketchup, then go back to buying the ketchup, or go to Burger King.
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Originally Posted by Forbin_Project
Then it's time for them to get off the cross, use the wood to build a bridge, and get over it.
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Thats apples and oranges.
All of the above were ADDED for free in the first 5 issues. Would you care to try again explaining how expansions are a "completely seperate issue" ?
@ Purgatorio