Discussion: Featured Items at the Paragon Market - 10/4/11
By
Agonist_NA,
Posted on: 2011-10-04 10:36 in News, Events and Announcement Discussion
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Actually, Im being a good customer. Im not "complaining." I'm letting them know why I might be cancelling my sub, which many businesses spend, literally, millions of dollars a year to know and understand. |
Originally Posted by Grouchybeast
So, you're complaining that NCSoft is offering you a new option that allows you to spend less money and still access all the game content that you want to access? And you want them to stop doing that and instead go back to the model where you had to pay more, for content you didn't want?
That's...very charitable. Dude, they're a commercial organization. You don't have to feel bad about taking advantage of their pricing structure. Cancel your sub and spend the $50 on something else! |
I love this game. I REALLY want it to continue to be successful. Current pricing with the f2p model has me thinking I may cancel my sub to save money since I could get what I want for less. They need to know that so they don't think it was a rage quit, or an economic hardship, etc. It just -might- have an effect on how they decide future pricing and powerset releases.
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Originally Posted by bromley
I am personally not spending more, but it is because I resent strongarm marketing tactics. It might even result in my paying less, since I used to buy the boosters, but now feel that paying for extra points is like giving the dog a treat when it gets mud on the couch.
The pricing strategy for the Paragon Market is eroding my goodwill as a long time player. I no longer feel happy to throw an extra ten bucks to help fill the coffers of that game I like. But I'm sure I'm in the minority, so no harm done, right? |
This. That is exactly my point.
Is it the "correct" view or opinion? No. Is it a valid one? Yes. And NCsoft would WANT to know if customers begin pulling back on spending because of it, since it is, presumably, the opposite of what they were going for.
That's not being spoiled, or childish, or ranting. It's being a consumer, and being open with the company you're buying from, so that pricing reaches a proper level.
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However, if McDonalds sets up a room specifically designed for customers to discuss and give feedback on their announcements, and sets one table up specifically for discussion and feedback of their pricing adjustments to condiments, and they hire people to monitor the discussions in that room, chances are...it's the perfect place for customers to explain why they don't like it and may stop buying value meals. |
Originally Posted by Lacklight
In any case, if McDonalds started charging for packets of ketchup, discussing the economic value and whether McDonalds would make or lose money out of the deal while eating your meal in the McDonalds dining area will not convince McDonalds to give back your free ketchup. Neither will discussing it with the staff of any individual store, who are rarely consulted in what changes ought to be made to the company. Buy the ketchup, or don't, and if that doesn't change the situation, and you cannot live without the ketchup, then go back to buying the ketchup, or go to Burger King. |
*looks at the forum name and the thread name*
Yup. Seems about right.
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But, this is only valid if a substantial minority of the player base decides to get angry about it. As it stands right now, I can count about 5 to 10 people who are being very vocal about the situation here on the message boards|
Originally Posted by Cptn_Courageous
And I counter that anything that significantly changes a game and ticks off a substantial portion of it's player base follows the path of SOE.
I am ticked. I feel that the VIP benefits were misrepresented and we were set up. It's all good. I've been playing this game for 7 years. Perhaps it's time for a change. And this change makes a good exit point... after all we can drop to premium and go off and play other games... and there are a ton of new games out there coming up. |
The same message boards that fewer than 3% of the player base ever visits. The cries are far from deafening and the light from the torches barely makes a shadow off of the pitchforks...
There is no such thing as an "innocent bystander"
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I'm very certain the good will they are getting from giving the players more options and more choices without reducing their value is more than making up for the damage done to players who are either inventing motives that don't exist or claiming a loss of value that doesn't match reality.
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Originally Posted by bromley
I think the very, very high prices at the market go a long way to negate the feeling of "free vip points". After at least a year of subscribers complaining that we weren't getting the costume sets and whatnot that people came to expect with the issues, suddenly we have a giant stockpile of sets, costumes, bells and whistles that they are willing to sell to us, and only the most anemic of which (circle of thorns bundle, the 3 mish signature story) are priced the same as the monthly stipend.
Anything, any one thing, whether it be a powerset or costume slot or a travel board means sitting around for a month waiting for points to accumulate (while you also pay your sub), a system designed to make those who feel part of the "community" to feel left out while they wait. The game used to be about keeping us playing and paying. Now it is about keeping us playing and paying, and also paying. I am personally not spending more, but it is because I resent strongarm marketing tactics. It might even result in my paying less, since I used to buy the boosters, but now feel that paying for extra points is like giving the dog a treat when it gets mud on the couch. The pricing strategy for the Paragon Market is eroding my goodwill as a long time player. I no longer feel happy to throw an extra ten bucks to help fill the coffers of that game I like. But I'm sure I'm in the minority, so no harm done, right? |
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That might be a naive stance. Let me repeat "might."|
Originally Posted by BigFish
The same message boards that fewer than 3% of the player base ever visits. The cries are far from deafening and the light from the torches barely makes a shadow off of the pitchforks...
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Non-VIPs can't really post on the forums. Sure, there are a few places they have been "stealth permissioned," but it isn't commonly know yet. There is a whole demographic that might not be heard from yet.
There really isn't telling how many (in percentage) of the whole player base isn't happy about the prices/market. Well, at least not for us.
I'm sure data from the Market is being looked at. Which accounts are buying, and are they the only ones buying, etc..
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First off, 5-10 is sort of a big range. Secondly, this is the only thread I've posted about the issue in. And I only did so after friends in the game urged me to do so. |
Originally Posted by BigFish
But, this is only valid if a substantial minority of the player base decides to get angry about it. As it stands right now, I can count about 5 to 10 people who are being very vocal about the situation here on the message boards
The same message boards that fewer than 3% of the player base ever visits. The cries are far from deafening and the light from the torches barely makes a shadow off of the pitchforks... |
So there may be more than you think. Remember, it's not about majority, it's about at what point the revenue scales begin to tip in the wrong direction.
Personally, I have NO idea what that point is. NCsoft does. So they'll listen and watch and Im sure in the end do what's best for the game overall.
Provided they fully understand WHY revenues tip whichever way that they eventually do.
As a counterpoint to a few comments, I tend to think that having some items for sale for VIP members is a good idea, especially those that can be earned. If you don't want to bother with the earnings quests for certain items you can simply purchase them, and they give 400 points each months by default.
I'm not sure how I feel about items that can only be purchased (not earned in game) but I'm ok with those items that are offered in the market that can be earned in the game. I think it's a good idea. Certainly saves a bit of frustration.
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That would be the same way ATT used to generate goodwill right up to its destruction.|
Originally Posted by Arcanaville
I'm very certain the good will they are getting from giving the players more options and more choices without reducing their value is more than making up for the damage done to players who are either inventing motives that don't exist or claiming a loss of value that doesn't match reality.
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Somebody would have to be on drugs or believe the people they were talking to were on drugs to make the argument that offerings at exorbitant prices will generate goodwill.
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Unfortunately, I've seen angry fans posting on these boards. They can make hundreds of pages fly by in a single day.|
Originally Posted by opprime28
First off, 5-10 is sort of a big range. Secondly, this is the only thread I've posted about the issue in. And I only did so after friends in the game urged me to do so.
So there may be more than you think. Remember, it's not about majority, it's about at what point the revenue scales begin to tip in the wrong direction. Personally, I have NO idea what that point is. NCsoft does. So they'll listen and watch and Im sure in the end do what's best for the game overall. Provided they fully understand WHY revenues tip whichever way that they eventually do. |
You may be overestimating the outrage this is generating. Just a tad
There is no such thing as an "innocent bystander"
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Honestly, I doubt they'll care, unless you actually do cancel your sub. Why should they, when this forum is always lousy with people claiming that they're going to cancel because NCSoft has done something utterly atrocious, and yet a month later they're still here to threaten to cancel about something else? By now, I doubt promises to cancel even register a blip on the radar, still less someone saying they might cancel.|
Originally Posted by opprime28
Actually, Im being a good customer. Im not "complaining." I'm letting them know why I might be cancelling my sub, which many businesses spend, literally, millions of dollars a year to know and understand.
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As long as people keep ponying up the $$$, they can complain all they like on the forums. If you really want them to believe you, then cancel and tell them why in the exit questionnaire.
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Originally Posted by Grouchybeast
Honestly, I doubt they'll care, unless you actually do cancel your sub. Why should they, when this forum is always lousy with people claiming that they're going to cancel because NCSoft has done something utterly atrocious, and yet a month later they're still here to threaten to cancel about something else? By now, I doubt promises to cancel even register a blip on the radar, still less someone saying they might cancel.
As long as people keep ponying up the $$$, they can complain all they like on the forums. If you really want them to believe you, then cancel and tell them why in the exit questionnaire. |
Well, I cancelled one of my two subs already, then found out that as a tier 9 VIP I will keep almost everything except for incarnate content, so Im very likely going to cancel my main sub at the end of this billing cycle (I renew on the 3rd of every month.)
That being said, I think you are grossly underestimating how many people actually DID cancel their subs and havent returned after things like the PVP fiasco, etc.
As I said though, Im not at all anti f2p, and I love this game. Im just finding that, at least at the present, it looks like I'll now be spending less on it to get the things I really care about , and I don't think that was NCsoft's intentions. I'll actually be saving anywhere from 30-80 dollars a year per account, depending on how I buy my points and how fast they come out with new content. Actually I'll be saving slightly more than that since I used to buy the occassional booster pack or character slot before, which I can now get with some of my 1300 pts a month.
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opprime, see that is the "freedom" part of Freedom - you are using it as intended! |
Originally Posted by opprime28
As I said though, Im not at all anti f2p, and I love this game. Im just finding that, at least at the present, it looks like I'll now be spending less on it to get the things I really care about , and I don't think that was NCsoft's intentions. I'll actually be saving anywhere from 30-80 dollars a year per account, depending on how I buy my points and how fast they come out with new content. Actually I'll be saving slightly more than that since I used to buy the occassional booster pack or character slot before, which I can now get with some of my 1300 pts a month.
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If, for you, going Premium makes sense, then do it! NCSoft continues to make money from you for the long term when you might have quit the game at some point since you may have begun to not feel good paying for incarnate content or SSA or whatever that you don't care to use. And by keeping you in touch with the game, maybe at some point your re-sub, when otherwise, you might have moved on to different games and never known the cool thing that brought you back.
For me, I continue paying my sub, continue to enjoy the VIP perks, and get back $5 in points to buy more stuff. If I am patient, I never have to pay the $15 for a booster pack again, but I get the stuff anyway. For me it is a win to stay VIP. It was a win to pay my sub before this too, but now I get more stuff for the same price I was paying previously.
And for free players, they get to come in and play in our world, join my team, help level me up, and maybe stick around and make PS more money for more stuff as Premium/VIPs.
I admit I was skeptical of F2P when I first learned of it, but I am happy at how it is playing out. As long as we don't see a new OP powerset that is for-pay, or rare or very rare enhancements in the store, I am golden. (Or is that "goldenrod?")
Perhaps in some cases, maybe yours, PS makes a little less money since you are happy with Premium and don't pay for VIP. Maybe, in the face of all evidence, Capt C unsubs because he thinks he is paying more even though those monthly debits are exactly the same, and PS loses there. But on the whole, I think it is a rational business model that players can be happy with.
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And I would totally agree with that statement. |
Originally Posted by Agonist_NA
Perhaps in some cases, maybe yours, PS makes a little less money since you are happy with Premium and don't pay for VIP. Maybe, in the face of all evidence, Capt C unsubs because he thinks he is paying more even though those monthly debits are exactly the same, and PS loses there. But on the whole, I think it is a rational business model that players can be happy with.
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The key to it though, is proper pricing and implementation based on proper feedback. So when I come in here, posting my two cents, clarifying it is exactly that, it is a GOOD thing, not "whinig" or " ranting" or anything else people in here have jumped on and called it.
For me, the current pricing and implementation is leaning me toward spending less on the game than I was. NCsoft needs to know that so they factor that in. Theoretically, the more they know that from those who feel that way, the better the pricing and implementation will be for all parties.
One thing Im waiting for with my main account before making my final decision there is whether the next powerset or two to come out are "purchase only" or "free" to VIPs upon release. If the next one is "free to VIPs" I may begin to think that it will be more balaced, and over the course of the year 400 points will get me everything I want when I include what I get as a VIP. If it's a third "purchase only" powerset, it will likely convince me I'd get more of what I really want spending the money on points directly.
as I said, Im not hating on the business model. Im trying to make it as successful as I thought it would be upon hearing of it.
And for the record, I've already brought one new player in since it went f2p. As of right now they were waiting to decide if they liked the game before becoming VIP. Now, they're waiting to see what I do to see which is the smarter move. So this sort of feedback will help NCsoft make this system the best it can be as they try to make it survive and grow.
Now as a side note:
I STILL say that nickle and diming us is a WAY smarter way to get money from us than making things "expensive" up front. If costume pieces, for example, were a buck a pop, I and many others would purchase them on a whim as we want them. If they're 5 bucks a pop...we may buy one of two over a year that we REALLY want. they'd likely get more money under the first model. At least that's how I work. Take music, for example. I used to buy maybe 3 CDs a year for 10 bucks and no singles priced at 4 dollars, totalling 30 bucks in music purchases a year. When they started selling single mp3s at 1 buck a pop, I was probably spending 50 bucks a year because it was just 'a buck' here and there. Once they gave me all music I wanted in a subscription, I started paying rhapsody 12 bucks a month...meaning Im now up to spending almost 150 a year on music. This is the same idea. Find that balance. Either nickle and dime me and get more money because it's so cheap I dont even think twice about it with cheaper prices in the market, or give me access everything and get continue to get even more money because Im a subscriber (the past business model CoH had.) If you try and make it too expensive individually you'll end up getting less overall.
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Let me know when you find someone making that argument.
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Originally Posted by Another_Fan
That would be the same way ATT used to generate goodwill right up to its destruction.
Somebody would have to be on drugs or believe the people they were talking to were on drugs to make the argument that offerings at exorbitant prices will generate goodwill. |
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I am somewhat with you on that part, opprime, but since they are giving away 400 points free every month, I think what they are searching for is a price that VIPs are willing to pay in order to get it NAO that is beyond what those same people already have banked. Problem is, I think many of the prices are way too much to entice the casual free/premium user to plonk down some cash.
It would be very interesting to get my hands on the market data. I teach applied stats and do experimental design and statistical analyses for businesses. It would be fun to do some studies to find out the drivers in this market. Well, my idea of fun anyway...
What I do object to is people saying they are paying more or getting less for what they pay when it is easy to show that is not true.
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Originally Posted by Agonist_NA
I am somewhat with you on that part, opprime, but since they are giving away 400 points free every month, I think what they are searching for is a price that VIPs are willing to pay in order to get it NAO that is beyond what those same people already have banked. Problem is, I think many of the prices are way too much to entice the casual free/premium user to plonk down some cash.
It would be very interesting to get my hands on the market data. I teach applied stats and do experimental design and statistical analyses for businesses. It would be fun to do some studies to find out the drivers in this market. Well, my idea of fun anyway... What I do object to is people saying they are paying more or getting less for what they pay when it is easy to show that is not true. |
I'm with you on the suspected reasoning, and on the interest in the actual data. I DO think you might be able make a case that it -appears- you may end up getting less for your 15 than you used to in the long run, but not on either "paying more" for it or on being to able draw -any- sort of specific conclusion this early in the game.
1 year down the road either side might have the evidence to support a claim because we'd see a trend (more powersets are coming out than VIP included sets and the points arent enough to keep up with them in a reasonable manner, or they're coming out at a fast enough rate and balanced enough between VIP and for-purchase that VIPs are still getting the same level of powerset expansion as they used to just for their monthly fees, etc.)
That sort of reasoning is EXACTLY why I think people should be voicing their thoughts along the way here in the forums: devs need to see what we think, how and why we make the purchases we do, and then they can properly adjust. Who knows, maybe it will mean a drop in prices, but it may also show them that a large enough part of the base is willing to pay 5 dollars a month MORE than they pay for their subs just to get the "new set now" and they can actually raise the prices. We don't know yet.
But demonizing players who feel differently than you is hardly constructive. And dismissing peoples' perceptions as "wrong" is foolish too, since their perceptions are, 9 times out of 10, what drive their purchases. Discussing things the way you have been, I think, much more helpful, imo.
For everyone else AND the Devs and Community Manager:
The Paragon Market is a wonderful, wonderful thing - and so are the continuous improvements and upgrades to City of Heroes.
I'm impressed by, and thankful for, the business choice to use micro-transactions (just like some other companies - for example Zynga. NICE JOB guys!! I hope the incoming moneys help to keep CoH running for a very very long time.
I have been to the Paragon Market many times, and the availability of so very many good options really knocks my socks off!
I'm a 4-year veteran of the game and I have no problem with the changes. Keep up the great work!
Everyone else: they're still tweaking the Paragon Market and Rewards systems, so keep giving that feedback to Paragon.
-- ElectroSolar
(Join me in team on the Liberty server!)
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Consider yourself called
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Let me know when you find someone making that argument.
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My problem with Paragon's "micro transaction" model is that it is NOT micro. Most things cost 800 points or more, which is expensive in both real money terms and in free VIP points. Period.
I know this will change, it has to. There are only so many "fanboi" types that will keep this game afloat by spending that kind of capital. Free to play (f2p) players simply will not buy that much, not en masse, at least.
Micro transactions need to be SMALL (hence the name). A new powerset for 500-800 points is fine, but a lot of quality-of-life, minimal labor things (server transfers, name changes, existing AT unlocks, etc) need to be priced much lower. Costume sets need to stay as sets, and all be under 400 (say, 300 or so). Emotes should be the little guys at 10-50 points each, etc.
Right now, there really is nothing that encourages me to buy points and spend them (though I did early on to encourage the model). Beam Rifle was an excellent set and it was onsale at a decent price: I win. Street Justice was expensive (not on sale) and is pretty lackluster, got it anyway: I lose. It's a wash, and I'm not ready to "gamble" again.
I'd say offer a lifetime subscription option, but I'm guessing the ones actually paying for VIP will continue to pay monthly (even though most all of them would jump at a LTS offer, if priced under $300).
Good luck with the market, Paragon. It does still need a TON of work (both interface and pricing structure). I won't be a guinnea pig for it, though. Sorry.
"Look how many pages of crap are in this thread already!" -r0y to all threads on these forums.
Not really sure how to help you with that.
And to correct you... if you go to a car salesman and he says something that sounds like it's too good to be true, it usually is. It's your fault if you buy it because you should know better. So I suppose the moral there is one should always distrust anybody trying to sell you something.
That doesn't mean you can't be unhappy about their misleading sales pitch. Does it? So when Paragon Studios says your benefits from your subscription won't essentially change and you'll get more... and that's not the case...because you're actually getting less...that's the fault of the people who are unhappy about it because it's not as good as marketing said it was going to be.
Of course the change in service and business model was unilateral. I didn't have anything to say about it... so what do I have to complain about? Right?