Where are the casual players?
And by checking, I mean check the sales prices and dates for the crafted enhancement. If it doesn't have 5 sales within the last week or two, I generally don't bother because I don't want to have it sitting in inventory for a month or more.
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In addition to what Flea said, pay attention to the number of bidders, the number of sellers, and the number of sales per day you can see in the history.
A lot of bids outstanding and not many for sale with a frequent sales time stamp on the last 5 sales mean this item is both well supplied and very popular. You should be able to sell near the prices you see in the history, but not a whole lot more. High supply means other sellers may undercut you if you list too high.
A lot of bids outstanding and not many for sale with infrequent sales time stamps means this item is in demand, but doesn't get sold very often. If you get one, you can almost certainly immediately sell for not just the prices in the history, but also something higher. There's no way to know for sure just from the market interface how much higher - that requires some understanding of how popular the item is. My wall of text above has some of those guidelines.
A lot of sales and few outstanding bids with frequent sales time stamps mean this item is in demand, but is probably oversupplied. Everyone who needs one is getting it as soon as they bid. The prices on the history here can be deceptive - people with spare Inf often overpay for these kinds of items just to avoid "bid creeping".
A lot of sales and few outstanding bids with infrequent sales probably means no one wants this item.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
I'll point out the Goat's Rule #1: Anything good with zero available for sale, is priced too low.
To define "good", look at the list Bionic Flea gave out.
To define "Priced too low", look at the last 5 and price a smidge higher than that or if there is one much higher than the rest, aim there.
This rule is virtually never wrong. The very few times are where you're talking about low-level versions of something that is good, but not popular. Like a level 11 basislisk's gaze.
"Hmm, I guess I'm not as omniscient as I thought" -Gavin Runeblade.
I can be found, outside of paragon city here.
Thank you everyone at Paragon and on Virtue. When the lights go out in November, you'll find me on Razor Bunny.
As you can see, there are a few different philosophies of the market and, though it's not obvious,a few different skill levels.
Here are my recommendations:
1) Sell all common [white] recipes to a vendor unless you're planning on crafting it for personal use, like a Plasmatic Taser or jetpack or something.
2) Check "# for sale/buying" for every yellow and orange recipe. If there aren't any buyers and there are a ton for sale, vendor it. If there are a lot more buyers than sellers, it's probably worth selling. I have a bunch of mental shortcuts like "don't bother with yellow mez recipes" but that's probably more complex than you want, starting out.
3) Usually, if it's worth selling it's worth crafting. Check to make sure.
4) The Penny Tray Rule: Figure out how much inf is "like a penny" to you- for me it's about 5000 inf, for some people it's 500 and for some people it's a million. You know those "Take a penny, leave a penny" trays? Don't worry about taking or leaving a few pennies of inf.
5) Everyone who actually sells lists under "last 5" prices and some people get complex trying to figure out how low they can list without actually selling at a lower price. "List low and sell fast" is generally good advice. If it didn't sell after a week? Relist it.
Mini-guides: Force Field Defenders, Blasters, Market Self-Defense, Frankenslotting.
So you think you're a hero, huh.
@Boltcutter in game.
AE farms don't drop purples. Trials are a very poor place to get purples because the kill rate is so low. I like to do the hero tip missions or any level 49+ mission at +0/8. Purples have a drop rate of something on the order of 1/2500 or 1/3000 kills so just kill a lot. anything 49+ can drop them.
if you can get a team of at least 4 players and run hero tip mission at +0/8 and your team as a whole should see 1-3 purples a week... assuming you do 5 hero tips per night and try to kill everything you can. ITF and LGTF are nice for this too but again, try to kill all for the drops.
Thank you so much for all the advice! It is exactly what I'm looking for.
But one thing that still has me scratching my head is this: how does one know if a piece of salvage is "junk"? I mean, short of searching the market UI for each and every piece of salvage there is--which sounds rather tedious and time-consuming to me, but what do I know?
Looking at the benefits--and therefore the likely market value--of a crafted set IO is fairly discernable just from looking at the description text of the recipe. But the description text of any given piece of salvage tells you virtually nothing useful. It seems to me that there is no "quick estimate" heuristic for vendoring vs. selling salvage short of becoming a human database of salvage lore. I'm pretty certain I won't be crafting or marketeering seriously enough to acquire that lore on my own.
I kinda like gameboy's idea of just selling anything that isn't purple for 1 influence (yeah, I know he said everything, not just purples, but I'm hypothesizing a minor variant here). Isn't it mostly true that the amounts in question surrounding non-purple recipes aren't usually worth trying to min-max on the market, particularly if one is not a hardcore marketeer? It feels to me like purples are probably, by and large, worth my time to check out their true market value, compare crafted vs. raw recipe profit potential, and maybe even try to gauge supply and demand forces. But anything less valuable than that probably isn't worth that much effort in the greater scheme of things, right? (Again, speaking from a casual player's point of view).
I mean, I just turned around a single purple enhancement for nearly 720 million. Compared to sales like that, it is hard to get too worked up over a difference of a couple million here and there on the "small stuff", between dumping it on the market for 1 infl and trying to game the market for maximum profit. Please understand that I'm not trying to find the Perfect Marketeering Strategy; merely absorbing everyone's insights and advice to see what feels like it will blend most comfortably with my personal definition of "casual play".
NOR-RAD - 50 Rad/Rad/Elec Defender - Nikki Stryker - 50 DM/SR/Weap Scrapper - Iron Marauder - 50 Eng/Eng/Pow Blaster
Lion of Might - 50 SS/Inv/Eng Tanker - Darling Nikkee - 50 (+3) StJ/WP/Eng Brute - Ice Giant Kurg - 36 Ice/Storm Controller
But one thing that still has me scratching my head is this: how does one know if a piece of salvage is "junk"? I mean, short of searching the market UI
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But anything less valuable than that probably isn't worth that much effort in the greater scheme of things, right? (Again, speaking from a casual player's point of view). |
NOR-RAD - 50 Rad/Rad/Elec Defender - Nikki Stryker - 50 DM/SR/Weap Scrapper - Iron Marauder - 50 Eng/Eng/Pow Blaster
Lion of Might - 50 SS/Inv/Eng Tanker - Darling Nikkee - 50 (+3) StJ/WP/Eng Brute - Ice Giant Kurg - 36 Ice/Storm Controller
I don't know, but off the top of my head, around 50% to 90% of the price of the crafted IO.
Just out of curiosity, what would the recipes for those sets sell for by themselves?
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A fairly tried and true way to make steady, but not amazing money on the market is to find something where there is a large price gap in the recipe and the crafted enhancement. Then you buy the recipe, any salvage you don't have, craft the enhancement, and list that. There are tons of desirable IOs out there where you will clear 5-10M inf doing that, even if you have to buy rare salvage to craft the enhancement. A lot of people value their time way more than their inf, and/or hate crafting so much that they pay sometimes staggering markups for the service of someone crafting an IO for them.
But one thing that still has me scratching my head is this: how does one know if a piece of salvage is "junk"? I mean, short of searching the market UI for each and every piece of salvage there is--which sounds rather tedious and time-consuming to me, but what do I know? |
What I recommend is that you carry them to the market, toss them in, and look at the history that pops up next to them. If the prices you see don't meet your "penny rule" as Fulmens puts it, then that will eventually start to sink in. "Hm, Mathematic Proofs sell for jack." (They do, by the way.)
Finally, everything is subject to change. If some new patch or release introduces a big enough shift in the type or level of salvage or recipe people are producing, or introduces new powersets or ways of slotting, this can dramatically affect supply and/or demand, and all your existing rules of thumb can become invalid. You don't have to pore over the market all the time, but it helps to check its pulse now and then, to make sure you're up on its latest shenanigans.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
It might help to know how salvage is organized. [my brain is going "There really IS a lot of salvage, actually... doesn't seem like it."]
There are three tiers: low (10-25), medium (26-40) and high (41-50). There is slight overlap (20-25 enemies drop low or medium tier salvage, for instance.)
In each tier, you have six tech and six magic of each type. Circle of Thorns drops magic, Rikti drop tech and so forth (a lot of 'em drop mixed types.)
Bottom tier, almost everything is "penny rule"- people just don't craft a lot of level 20 IO's so there's very little demand. There are a few commons that sometimes sell for decent prices.
Middle tier, highly variable. Generally the rares sell for 1 to 2 million, but uncommons and commons can go for 10K or 200K, and it can change from morning to afternoon.
Upper tier, commons are "penny rule". Uncommons are variable. Rares sell for 1-2 million.
Mini-guides: Force Field Defenders, Blasters, Market Self-Defense, Frankenslotting.
So you think you're a hero, huh.
@Boltcutter in game.
So how are casual gamers expected to participate at what has become the new Standards for End Game Play without farming? When I join teams with my old L50s, which pre-date the Incarnate system, I am self-conscious about the fact that I might get booted for being less than half as effective as everyone else who seems to have full sets of "purple" IOs (or whatever), top-tier Incarnate powers, and so on.
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Relax. Its a game. The only person worrying about this is you. I take many toons to 50 on SO's only and retire them (or delete them). Only my most powerful AT's, or those I think SHOULD play better with IO nudges here and there than they have with SO's, get any investment in the IO system at all. I've T4'd out a handful of my 50's and yes, they also happen to be heavily vested with IO sets as well. But to date, I only have slotted a handful of purples that I earned from drops across my entire lineup of toons.
Some people find steamrolling fun. Some people find a legitimate challenge fun. Some people like both.
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Just last week during my bi-weekly D&D (well, Pathfinder) game, my team came across a single lost damsel in distress. A very beautiful one at that. We all were very happy to help her, and traveled with her to her village to help. Before we got there, we had to set camp.
Turns out the beautiful lady was a Succubus. Our group is level 7 (of 20) and facing something like a demon isn't much of a surprise, but would be taxing without the right equipment. She hit hard, was hard to hit, and worse has DR 10/-, meaning that no matter what we hit her with, 10 points of that damage would be just ignored (unless we had cold iron or holy weaponry....which we didn't). The fight was long, difficult, but OH so much fun!
But there are times where I want to steamroll something. That's when Dynasty Warriors comes in. Even before a character gets half-way to max level or strongest weapons, you can take down HORDES of soldiers with no real threat to you. Swing your spear and kill half a dozen soldiers, swing it again, kill the rest and nearly kill their captain! Heck, in Dynasty Warriors 4, Lu Bu, the biggest strongest guy in the land and That One Boss and is SO POWERFUL he TAUNTS someone they just DIE! Normally, you use the taunt to make the enemies lose their guard, letting you attack them before they can block again. But not Lu Bu. His taunt does that AND causes damage, and when he's strong enough and the enemy is injured, they will simply die on the spot.
There are times where it's gratifying to be able to kill waves upon waves of enemies and come out without even dirt on your armor.
I sit in my zen of not being able to do anything right while simultaniously not being able to do anything wrong. Om. -CuppaJo
It is by caffeine alone that I set my mind in motion. It is by the beans of Java that thoughts acquire speed, the hands acquire shaking, the shaking becomes a warning. It is by caffeine alone that I set my mind in motion.
But one thing that still has me scratching my head is this: how does one know if a piece of salvage is "junk"? I mean, short of searching the market UI for each and every piece of salvage there is--which sounds rather tedious and time-consuming to me, but what do I know?
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Once you make your first few hundred million, I like my strategy: list everything except those few oranges for 1 inf. You might not get top dollar out of it, but you'll clear those market slots quickly, and can use those for more expensive items that might take a day or two to sell.
So how are casual gamers expected to participate at what has become the new Standards for End Game Play without farming? When I join teams with my old L50s, which pre-date the Incarnate system, I am self-conscious about the fact that I might get booted for being less than half as effective as everyone else who seems to have full sets of "purple" IOs (or whatever), top-tier Incarnate powers, and so on.
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Its all in your head. People can't tell you don't have all purples slotted (not that you could even if you wanted to on a any single build). They can pull up your info and look at your set bonus listing, but that's not descriptive enough to tell them everything unless they want to spend a long time and make a spreadsheet out of your info tab.
Relax. Its a game. The only person worrying about this is you. I take many toons to 50 on SO's only and retire them (or delete them). Only my most powerful AT's, or those I think SHOULD play better with IO nudges here and there than they have with SO's, get any investment in the IO system at all. I've T4'd out a handful of my 50's and yes, they also happen to be heavily vested with IO sets as well. But to date, I only have slotted a handful of purples that I earned from drops across my entire lineup of toons. |
The big thing to remember is that purples aren't the be-all, end-all in this game. Yes, they give you great damage. Yes, they give you great recharge, and nice Endurance Recovery bonuses. In the big scheme of things, though, they don't do anything significant for defense, and I always have to suppress a snicker when the purpled-out character next to me faceplants while I just keep tearing through bad guys. Among my 21 level 50's I think I've got four purple sets, scattered across three squishies, and no purples at all on my melee characters -- and I can STILL do a lot of normal content on 4/8 with some of my 2 and 4 billion INF builds, thanks very much. I've done the "old" RWZ scrapper challenge long before Incarnate content arrived (including once with a blaster), I've soloed pylons, all without uberly tricked out builds with five purple sets.
You see a lot of people here on the forums talking about purples because there ARE a lot of min/maxers and people who've been playing the game for years and are looking for the ultimate in builds, or challenges. Inside the War Walls, though, purples really ARE a lot more rare than one might think from the forums.
"But it wasn't anything some purples and oranges and lots of screaming in fear couldn't handle." -- Werner
30 level 50's: 12 scrappers, 7 other random melee types, 11 blaster/blapper/support squishies, two accounts, and a TON of altitis since 4/28/04
Be wary of TFs that advertise as 'speed'. There is a chance that the leader will check your info to see if you can keep up. I have seen players not even invited or kicked off because they didn't have enough set bonuses. 'Master of' runs may be especially picky too.
Before even doing the trials, unlock Alpha so any incarnate xp you earn will apply to Judgement, Lore, etc instead of the Alpha slot.
Expect to repeat trials to collect incarnate parts. The trials are fairly short so you can do 1 or 2 based on your time.
Like other people said, IOs and trials are optional. But if you want the bonuses and incarnate powers, you gotta put in some effort.
NOR-RAD - 50 Rad/Rad/Elec Defender - Nikki Stryker - 50 DM/SR/Weap Scrapper - Iron Marauder - 50 Eng/Eng/Pow Blaster
Lion of Might - 50 SS/Inv/Eng Tanker - Darling Nikkee - 50 (+3) StJ/WP/Eng Brute - Ice Giant Kurg - 36 Ice/Storm Controller
Be wary of TFs that advertise as 'speed'. There is a chance that the leader will check your info to see if you can keep up. I have seen players not even invited or kicked off because they didn't have enough set bonuses. 'Master of' runs may be especially picky too.
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Master runs are a whole different beast, and justifiably so in some cases. It's not as much of an issue these days with Incarnate powers flying around, but if a MoLRSF is forming, currently has 7 people, one of which is not a Mind Dom (or Troller, now), and you're not that, you probably aren't getting in unless the leader takes pity on you, in which case be prepared to fail that Master run.
*The right server is Pinnacle and the right global channel is PinnBadges. FYI.
"You don't lose levels. You don't have equipment to wear out, repair, or lose, or that anyone can steal from you. About the only thing lighter than debt they could do is have an NPC walk by, point and laugh before you can go to the hospital or base." -Memphis_Bill
We will honor the past, and fight to the last, it will be a good way to die...
Um, what is a "Master of" run? And why is a Mind Dom so important to one?
NOR-RAD - 50 Rad/Rad/Elec Defender - Nikki Stryker - 50 DM/SR/Weap Scrapper - Iron Marauder - 50 Eng/Eng/Pow Blaster
Lion of Might - 50 SS/Inv/Eng Tanker - Darling Nikkee - 50 (+3) StJ/WP/Eng Brute - Ice Giant Kurg - 36 Ice/Storm Controller
Um, what is a "Master of" run? And why is a Mind Dom so important to one?
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Since the critical issue of a Master Of run is no one can die, the requirements on each player's skill and build are significantly higher. And each task force has its own strategies for the best way to overcome the most challenging part of the task force most likely to cause death. For example, in the Lord Recluse Strike Force at the end you face a bunch of Heroes (AVs) simultaneously. It is virtually impossible to pull them apart consistently and facing multiple ones simultaneously greatly increases the chances of death. So one way to greatly simplify a Master of LRSF run is to have a perma-dom mind control dominator that can keep the entire group of Heroes permanently asleep, while the rest of the team then engages the Heroes one at a time.
That makes perma-dom mind dominators a common requested specific player for those runs. And since part of the requirement for this tactic is perma domination and that requires a substantial amount of global recharge buff, it requires a dominator that is significantly IOed out.
I should mention, in passing, that a perma-dom mind dominator is one of the cheapest "ultra-high performance" builds you can make, because mez IOs tend to be cheaper than offense or defense ones (Basilisk being the exception) and purple mez sets tend to be far cheaper on average than most purple sets. You're still talking about a circa billion inf build, but compared to what it takes to make a maximal brute farming build or a maximum offense/defense scrapper or a range-capped high offense blaster, its not that expensive in the grand scheme of min/maxing.
I should point out that other than that one mind dom, everything else can be just reasonably good, although one really strong tanker or brute (or lots of defensive buffs) is also very helpful. I actually got MoLRSF on a blaster that wasn't range capped or anything stupidly powerful, and given how that run went I could have easily gone in with an SO build without being a detriment to that team.
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I'm going to contradict this and say that I have never seen people kicked from teams because they didn't have set bonuses, or because they were deemed incapable of "keeping up" for a speed run (although if you're lagging behind in what was clearly advertised as a speed run, then yeah, people will probably get miffed, and rightfully so). Maybe it's different on other servers or if you're joining teams that are just forming through Broadcast, but if you find the right server with the right global channels*, it shouldn't be an issue.
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And as for not doing speed runs, I would love to see what a non-speed eden looks like. Never seen one. Ran 8 when it was WTF, and not a single one was non-speed.
You can get a non-speed ITF because it's so good for farming shards, but much of the game is to the point where if you can't zip past an army of enemies at X8, then you need not apply.
I've had people get pissed that I didn't run a speed TF. Apparently "we can take a straight path to the end, but I'm going to attack everything I see" is anathema in the game.
Oh, and that last part was on pinnacle and it was formed using pinnbadges and cozmic's.
I should point out that other than that one mind dom, everything else can be just reasonably good, although one really strong tanker or brute (or lots of defensive buffs) is also very helpful. I actually got MoLRSF on a blaster that wasn't range capped or anything stupidly powerful, and given how that run went I could have easily gone in with an SO build without being a detriment to that team.
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I agreed to it, and when i got there, discovered it was a "Master Of" run.
I actually forgot that i had about 1/2 my powers actually empty slotted with nothing, and the remaining were half slotted... somehow we managed to have zero deaths... even after accidentally pulling the whole group of heros (Statesman couldnt kill me!).
It was only when people were posting their recepie drops that i chimed in with "I just realised that I did that with half my powers slotted, and we still didnt die"...
Just proves more than anything else, that 95% of what a character does is actually fuelled by the person at the keyboard and not what the character is slotted with.
I'm going to contradict this and say that I have never seen people kicked from teams because they didn't have set bonuses, or because they were deemed incapable of "keeping up" for a speed run (although if you're lagging behind in what was clearly advertised as a speed run, then yeah, people will probably get miffed, and rightfully so). Maybe it's different on other servers or if you're joining teams that are just forming through Broadcast, but if you find the right server with the right global channels*, it shouldn't be an issue.
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Most of the team did what they knew what had to be done and a few stuck with everyone else that wasn't as quick as the real speeders. Just one of those 'unspoken strategies' that just happen as people play.
From my experience, most teams will understand if you're not as quick as the master runners who know exactly what is where and when and help you keep going as fast as you can. More so when you let them know you're not the fastest or strongest but willing to give it your all.
I sit in my zen of not being able to do anything right while simultaniously not being able to do anything wrong. Om. -CuppaJo
It is by caffeine alone that I set my mind in motion. It is by the beans of Java that thoughts acquire speed, the hands acquire shaking, the shaking becomes a warning. It is by caffeine alone that I set my mind in motion.
Well all of this raises an interesting question (to me anyway). And that is, how do speed runners and Master-of team leaders know who is experienced enough to be able to keep up and who isn't prior to inviting them to the team? Presumably these teams prefer players who know how to handle themselves in these high-challenge scenarios. Since there is no easy way to advertise that you are an expert or that your build is all IOed out (or that the opposite is true), what is the usual recruiting method that maximizes success?
Do players respond with tells saying things like, "Hey I'm a Master-of expert, please invite me", or "I'm a Master-of noob who needs experience, would you take me"? And what sort of response do tells like the latter typically elicit?
NOR-RAD - 50 Rad/Rad/Elec Defender - Nikki Stryker - 50 DM/SR/Weap Scrapper - Iron Marauder - 50 Eng/Eng/Pow Blaster
Lion of Might - 50 SS/Inv/Eng Tanker - Darling Nikkee - 50 (+3) StJ/WP/Eng Brute - Ice Giant Kurg - 36 Ice/Storm Controller
My experience has been that alike people tend to gather together. So speed runners tend to know other speed runners. Once a core group forms and they know each other it has been my experience that it doesn't matter who the last few slots go to, unless they are attempting a master run.
The speeders I run with are happy to team with anyone that is willing to try.
50s: Inv/SS PB Emp/Dark Grav/FF DM/Regen TA/A Sonic/Elec MA/Regen Fire/Kin Sonic/Rad Ice/Kin Crab Fire/Cold NW Merc/Dark Emp/Sonic Rad/Psy Emp/Ice WP/DB FA/SM
Overlord of Dream Team and Nightmare Squad
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