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Part winging it, part asking, part knowing what you know.|
Originally Posted by Wing_Leader
Well all of this raises an interesting question (to me anyway). And that is, how do speed runners and Master-of team leaders know who is experienced enough to be able to keep up and who isn't prior to inviting them to the team? Presumably these teams prefer players who know how to handle themselves in these high-challenge scenarios. Since there is no easy way to advertise that you are an expert or that your build is all IOed out (or that the opposite is true), what is the usual recruiting method that maximizes success?
Do players respond with tells saying things like, "Hey I'm a Master-of expert, please invite me", or "I'm a Master-of noob who needs experience, would you take me"? And what sort of response do tells like the latter typically elicit? |
When most Master Of teams form, they actively say it's a MO-run forming, need (this), (this) and (more of this), and it usually pertains to what the team is lacking and will need to get the MO badge, like debuffing, tanking, etc.
And those outside that range of need will be told no, unless they can't find anything that fits the hole in the team. Then you may get in if the team lead is feeling generous and brave enough to take someone that doesn't fill a hole.
As for the response? It'd depend on the team lead. There have been times on normal teams when my Dark Defender was kicked because I was Dark and not Empath. Not for a TF, I mean just normal teaming!
However, usually the team lead will tell you what will need to be done and the team should help you along.
I sit in my zen of not being able to do anything right while simultaniously not being able to do anything wrong. Om. -CuppaJo
It is by caffeine alone that I set my mind in motion. It is by the beans of Java that thoughts acquire speed, the hands acquire shaking, the shaking becomes a warning. It is by caffeine alone that I set my mind in motion.
First of all, Wingy, I like the cut of your jib. Liking your posts and comments in general lately; even whenI don't agree with ya... That said.
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Not even vaguely. It's all perception..|
Originally Posted by Wing_Leader
I guess what I'm wondering is this: has the game become one in which the top tier stuff is necessary to adequately participate in all the end-game content?
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| If so, then it seems to me that the game design needs to find ways to make this doable without such an artificial and unpleasant metagame practice as farming. If not, then why are so many players chasing the top tier stuff as if it was necessary? |
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| To my mind, simply expending effort is not farming. In game terms, doing missions and TFs and Trials (without repeating any of it) should be effort enough; it becomes farming when the only reason you are repeating content over and over and over again is to accumulate rewards in a manner and at a rate not supported by the mechanisms of normal play. |
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| And for the record, my day job doesn't feel like farming. I do not repeat the same tedious task over and over again (or sit in a "room", raking in the rewards, while someone else does all the "work"), and even if I did I would regard that as a miserable commentary on my career choice, not as an unenviable but necessary stage in personal development. |
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I'm sure in some cases it is bragging rights. But I don't think that's the usual motivation. I slot high end stuff because I can. I can afford it. I have lots of alts, and most have tons of merits, and a hero merits. It makes making a new high end build fairly easy. And I'm far from the more extreme case. Some folks do it for bragging, so for avoiding feeling like the lost, "avoidance of death." So want t feel they are doing all they can for the team they are on..|
Originally Posted by Wing_Leader
I'm certainly willing to believe you, but if this stuff isn't strictly necessary, then why are people so gung ho to fill their characters up with them? Is it bragging rights?
If slotting all purples does little more than make it easy to "steamroll" through the content, then what's the point? Non challenges sound about as appealing as insurmountable challenges. On the other hand, if the top tier end-game content is simply too hard to be very much fun without fully slotted top tier IOs and Incarnate powers, then it seems the barrier to entry to that content has perhaps been set too high because it is really only open to those players willing to be maximally hardcore. I remember having lots of fun working out optimal builds when SOs were the norm and HOs were simply "gravy". Then came the Invention System and the game sorta lost me. Everyone kept saying IOs were optional, and so I pretty much ignored the entire system (I am not a fan of crafting systems in general in MMOs). I left COH for a few years and am coming back again with a renewed interest in my all-time favorite MMO. But I'm wondering if I've been left hopelessly behind because it feels like learning, mastering, and then exploiting the crafting/auction system to the degree necessary to "keep up" with the hardcore players is like trying to get an MBA. I don't remember that much post-graduate work necessary to take part in the Hamidon raid back in the day, and that was the pinnacle of COH's end-game content at the time. I'm starting to feel so old... |
The bottom line really is.. Heck yeah, they help. A lot! If you have eh time and cash, why wouldn't you go for them (and be picky about getting the most bang for your buck). But they really, seriously, aren't needed. People mostly chase them to keep up with the jones..
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So sad to see this. Buff over heal in this game, folks. |
Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Not really: I don't even have aid self: recharge doesn't help...
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Not a commentary on Arcana, but more a comment on the game in general that she felt that she should phrase it this way..
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Experience. And your global friend network, and the ability to rank and comment said friends. I often get invites to Mo runs since I often play debuffers. I assume I have a positive comment or That alone has earned me a reputation among my circle of friends. So now when they, or some one connected to them, thinks of doing a Mo, I often get a call.
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Originally Posted by Wing_Leader
Well all of this raises an interesting question (to me anyway). And that is, how do speed runners and Master-of team leaders know who is experienced enough to be able to keep up and who isn't prior to inviting them to the team? Presumably these teams prefer players who know how to handle themselves in these high-challenge scenarios. Since there is no easy way to advertise that you are an expert or that your build is all IOed out (or that the opposite is true), what is the usual recruiting method that maximizes success?
Do players respond with tells saying things like, "Hey I'm a Master-of expert, please invite me", or "I'm a Master-of noob who needs experience, would you take me"? And what sort of response do tells like the latter typically elicit? |
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Too many responses!|
Originally Posted by Madadh
So sad to see this. Buff over heal in this game, folks.
Not a commentary on Arcana, but more a comment on the game in general that she felt that she should phrase it this way.. |
... you're lecturing Arcanaville on the basics?
... you're saying that an En/En blaster has self buffs?
... you're saying that there's something En/En blasters can do to stay alive that works better than Heal Self?
In case that first one seems like I'm putting someone on a pedestal: they named Arcanatime after her for a reason. (I knew it was there in about 2004, but she isolated, calculated and explained it to the rest of us.)
Mini-guides: Force Field Defenders, Blasters, Market Self-Defense, Frankenslotting.
So you think you're a hero, huh.
@Boltcutter in game.
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Huh? What I said was:|
Originally Posted by Madadh
So sad to see this. Buff over heal in this game, folks.
Not a commentary on Arcana, but more a comment on the game in general that she felt that she should phrase it this way.. |
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My main: an energy/energy blaster, I spend billions of inf to crank as much recharge as humanly possible without breaking something badly. Was that to maximize damage? Not really: energy blast has pretty flat DPA so recharge doesn't actually help damage all that much. Was it to give me better survivability? Not really: I don't even have aid self: recharge doesn't help with many things that make me more survivable. So why did I spend all those billions for all-out recharge? 'Cause its fun. |
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It was the first time ever I didn't coin a name for something myself, and people had to call it something. It might have been Werner that first called it that. I would have probably called it the power's effective rooted time, which means Arcanatime was a heartbeat away from being Pert.
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Originally Posted by Fulmens
they named Arcanatime after her for a reason
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*sigh*
I didn't think I was that obscure, but I'll try to clarify....
[QUOTE=Fulmens;3907614]Too many responses!
... you're lecturing Arcanaville on the basics?[QUOTE]
No. Not even slightly. Her turn of phrase made it sound as if it was normal to take said power. She didn't choose to. I wouldn't either. I just found it ironic that in a game that so often touts itself as a non healing game that enough people feel the need for a self heal that she would phrase her comment that way, as if she expected that a sizable portion of the readers would expect her to have taken this power. So, I was concurring with her choice, more than anything, and commenting on the irony that was implied.
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I made no comment anywhere that said, or even was intended to hint, at what powers were available to an En/En blaster. But, if I were to comment on En/En blasters, es, the have self buffs available to them. Build Up, Boost Range, Conserve Power, and Power Boost are all self buffs, and all are available to them. You, and others may skip them in your builds, but I can only comment on En/En blasters in general based on what they have available.| ... you're saying that an En/En blaster has self buffs? |
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| ... you're saying that there's something En/En blasters can do to stay alive that works better than Heal Self? |
So, in short, no, in none of the above cases were your guesses on the mark. I do apologize for being unclear.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Huh? What I said was:
I highlighted the specific part you quoted: in context I don't see the problem. It seemed reasonable to me to assume most people would know that if I was talking about survivability for an energy/energy blaster, the most likely power I could have that would directly help survivability that benefits from recharge would be aid self. My Energy/Energy blaster doesn't have any click buffs that help survivability directly, and the only ones she could have are not usually ones people spend a lot of money improving recharge on because they crash - Force of Nature and Surge of Power. |
I followed you just fine. And didn't find anything wrong with what you said. As I attempted to clarify above, I just found your turn of phase ironic. It seemed to me that you expected many of your readers to suspect that you may have taken Aid Self. If you didn't expect that, one wonders why you would address Aid Self and not Provoke or any other pool power that you didn't take for that matter.
And that's what I found ironic. Almost everyone's first comment to new players of this game is, "It isn't about the heals. Healzors aren't needed here." or some other variant on that theme, yet a huge percentage of the player bases seems to think that a self heal is almost a necessity, even with green inspirations so plentiful.
Obviously you don't subscribe to this thinking, and I didn't mean to imply you did. I apologize I wasn't very clear initially.
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Yes.|
Originally Posted by Wing_Leader
Is there still room in this game for casual players who want to experience the max-level content, but who don't want to turn farming into another life's career just to obtain the necessary IOs to be useful on a team nowadays?
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I'm not a casual player, but regardless of how much I'm on, I always play pretty casually.
At this point, I have 11 50s. Only 4 of them are "tricked out". Only 2 of them sport multi-billion inf builds. Only 1 of 'em has all the Incarnate stuff unlocked.
If this seems like a lot, keep in mind that I've been playing the game consistently for as long as it's been around.
Building out a character with spiffy goodies can absolutely be a very gradual and fun process. 'Cuz that's how I do it.
I recommend first trying common IOs.
Then play with "frankenslotting".
Then start getting into sets.
Then start getting into the uber sets.
Take your time with it. There's no rush. And if you don't want to deal with it at all, that's also still a valid option. SOs and inspirations work just fine.
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Because if you know it's a speed run and you're lagging significantly behind (i.e., the rest of the team is already at the AV and you're making your way there v e r y s l o w l y for no apparent reason besides laziness or ineptitude), then that's annoying. Note that this is not the same scenario as someone who going into a speed run stating "I've never done one of these before", they can be excused for being on the slow side.|
Originally Posted by rsclark
If you're napping by the door, then sure, people can get pissed, but what is "rightly so" about getting bothered by someone moving as quickly as they are able to?
And as for not doing speed runs, I would love to see what a non-speed eden looks like. Never seen one. Ran 8 when it was WTF, and not a single one was non-speed. You can get a non-speed ITF because it's so good for farming shards, but much of the game is to the point where if you can't zip past an army of enemies at X8, then you need not apply. I've had people get pissed that I didn't run a speed TF. Apparently "we can take a straight path to the end, but I'm going to attack everything I see" is anathema in the game. Oh, and that last part was on pinnacle and it was formed using pinnbadges and cozmic's. |
Also I never said Pinnacle was devoid of any stupid people (far FAR from it), but grumbling about a TF not being a speed run is not the same as kicking people for not having IOs, which is the point I was making.
"You don't lose levels. You don't have equipment to wear out, repair, or lose, or that anyone can steal from you. About the only thing lighter than debt they could do is have an NPC walk by, point and laugh before you can go to the hospital or base." -Memphis_Bill
We will honor the past, and fight to the last, it will be a good way to die...
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The game isn't about heals, and I used to be one of those people that used to say that. It helped I used to team a lot with an FF controller back in the day. But when talking about blasters specifically, most other options don't exist like click defenses. And I wouldn't consider Provoke to be a survival tool. Its specifically within the context of Blasters that Aid Self becomes less controversial: some like it and some don't, but most would agree its the main build option for building for survivability that doesn't go to range-capping with power pools and inventions.|
Originally Posted by Madadh
I followed you just fine. And didn't find anything wrong with what you said. As I attempted to clarify above, I just found your turn of phase ironic. It seemed to me that you expected many of your readers to suspect that you may have taken Aid Self. If you didn't expect that, one wonders why you would address Aid Self and not Provoke or any other pool power that you didn't take for that matter.
And that's what I found ironic. Almost everyone's first comment to new players of this game is, "It isn't about the heals. Healzors aren't needed here." or some other variant on that theme, yet a huge percentage of the player bases seems to think that a self heal is almost a necessity, even with green inspirations so plentiful. |
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| Obviously you don't subscribe to this thinking, and I didn't mean to imply you did. I apologize I wasn't very clear initially. |
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This reminds me: I don't think I ever mentioned this before. Not only did I not come up with a name for the expression "the net amount of time an attack will take up within a full attack chain due to the limits of the combat clock on the servers" but I also decided not to explicitly coin a name for "the duration of time after the cast time of the power expires when you cannot activate another attack." In the original Arcanatime article I simply called it the "server tailgate interval" which is some old-timey ethernet lingo leaking out there.|
Originally Posted by Arcanaville
It was the first time ever I didn't coin a name for something myself, and people had to call it something. It might have been Werner that first called it that. I would have probably called it the power's effective rooted time, which means Arcanatime was a heartbeat away from being Pert.
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But *that* thing I actually *did* coin a term for, and decided not to use it. Originally, I was going to call it the Server QUantum Induced Delay. However, I then realized the delay was not due to the combat quantum alone, but the interplay between the animation quantum and the combat quantum, so I decided to call it the Server QUantum Induced Beat.
Then I decided I was probably spending too much time having fun with that, and changed it in the article to "tailgate." But you can still see remnants of my discussion of server quantums as a legacy, and its probably why I forgot to go back later and give a simple name to the effective rooted time.
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How are you not a redname Arcanaville? 
NOR-RAD - 50 Rad/Rad/Elec Defender - Nikki Stryker - 50 DM/SR/Weap Scrapper - Iron Marauder - 50 Eng/Eng/Pow Blaster
Lion of Might - 50 SS/Inv/Eng Tanker - Darling Nikkee - 50 (+3) StJ/WP/Eng Brute - Ice Giant Kurg - 36 Ice/Storm Controller
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I think many of us have asked the same question, and I know others have suggested that Paragon Studios hire Arcanaville.|
Originally Posted by Wing_Leader
How are you not a redname Arcanaville?
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I suspect it's something to do with either "not enough money" or "one of those many other intangibles in real life". In which case I personally think they should keep offering more and more money.
"But it wasn't anything some purples and oranges and lots of screaming in fear couldn't handle." -- Werner
30 level 50's: 12 scrappers, 7 other random melee types, 11 blaster/blapper/support squishies, two accounts, and a TON of altitis since 4/28/04
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Considering her stated attitudes about work and corporate profits, it's more remarkable that she's still employed :P
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Originally Posted by Wing_Leader
How are you not a redname Arcanaville?
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"Not enough money" and "don't want to move to Mountain View." Plus, I would probably then be an underling of Black Scorpion, and you just *know* the powers people would pay real money to have me in that situation.|
Originally Posted by Eldorado
I think many of us have asked the same question, and I know others have suggested that Paragon Studios hire Arcanaville.
I suspect it's something to do with either "not enough money" or "one of those many other intangibles in real life". In which case I personally think they should keep offering more and more money. |
There isn't a "clean the whiteboard with your tongue" position on the Live and End Game strike team, but I'm sure something would be arranged.
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The quote was |
Originally Posted by DarkGob
Because if you know it's a speed run and you're lagging significantly behind (i.e., the rest of the team is already at the AV and you're making your way there v e r y s l o w l y for no apparent reason besides laziness or ineptitude), then that's annoying. Note that this is not the same scenario as someone who going into a speed run stating "I've never done one of these before", they can be excused for being on the slow side.
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| incapable of "keeping up" for a speed run (although if you're lagging behind in what was clearly advertised as a speed run, then yeah, people will probably get miffed, and rightfully so) |
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| Also I never said Pinnacle was devoid of any stupid people (far FAR from it), but grumbling about a TF not being a speed run is not the same as kicking people for not having IOs, which is the point I was making. |
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Indeed.|
Originally Posted by rsclark
When you have to specifically announce while recruiting that you aren't zipping invisibly and bulletproof past 90% of the missions, then the game doesn't appear inviting to those not capable of doing that.
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In fact, I wasn't even aware there was such a thing as "speed runs". Imagine the dismay were I to inadvertantly join one, not realizing what is meant by "speed"! Every week I encounter another little bit of culture shock as I learn what is keeping the power gamers occupied these days.
NOR-RAD - 50 Rad/Rad/Elec Defender - Nikki Stryker - 50 DM/SR/Weap Scrapper - Iron Marauder - 50 Eng/Eng/Pow Blaster
Lion of Might - 50 SS/Inv/Eng Tanker - Darling Nikkee - 50 (+3) StJ/WP/Eng Brute - Ice Giant Kurg - 36 Ice/Storm Controller
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Actually, if you find repeating content too many time to be boring, speed runs might add some fun to it, as speed running adds another goal to the TF beyond 'get the Merits/iSalvage'. There's always another second to be shaved off the time if things can be done just that little bit better.
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Originally Posted by Wing_Leader
In fact, I wasn't even aware there was such a thing as "speed runs". Imagine the dismay were I to inadvertantly join one, not realizing what is meant by "speed"! Every week I encounter another little bit of culture shock as I learn what is keeping the power gamers occupied these days.
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Defiant @Grouchybeast
Death is part of my attack chain.
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Okay, I can see that. But to me that just turns TFs into something akin to track & field events. I never liked WoW BattleGrounds because nothing was really at stake in the larger game world; it was basically just a sporting event dressed up to look sort of like meaningful PvP action. Treating missions like a sport--as opposed to a heroic effort to stop supervillainy--is not my cup of tea, though I understand its appeal for others.
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Originally Posted by Grouchybeast
There's always another second to be shaved off the time if things can be done just that little bit better.
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NOR-RAD - 50 Rad/Rad/Elec Defender - Nikki Stryker - 50 DM/SR/Weap Scrapper - Iron Marauder - 50 Eng/Eng/Pow Blaster
Lion of Might - 50 SS/Inv/Eng Tanker - Darling Nikkee - 50 (+3) StJ/WP/Eng Brute - Ice Giant Kurg - 36 Ice/Storm Controller
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Hey! This is a great town to live in! Come out and see it sometime and THEN say you don't want to move to Mountain View, I dare ya! |
Originally Posted by Arcanaville
..."don't want to move to Mountain View."
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Leader of Legion of Valor/Fallen Legion (Victory server)
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StainedGlassScarlet - L50 Spines/Inv Scrapper | Badges: 1,396
Avatar detail taken from full-size piece by Douglas Shuler here
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i love speed runs.... i find them a great adrenaline kicker....... also if the team is good players with worked up builds who know the tactics and have good comunication, the whole process is UBER fun (and safest than normal runs)... lately i don't care at all about the time we finish the tf, as long it is streamrolling fast paced fun...|
Originally Posted by Grouchybeast
Actually, if you find repeating content too many time to be boring, speed runs might add some fun to it, as speed running adds another goal to the TF beyond 'get the Merits/iSalvage'. There's always another second to be shaved off the time if things can be done just that little bit better.
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also i would like to add another reason why ppl do speed runs (exept those that Grouchy mentions).... it is their "available gaming time"... sometimes they have only 30-40 min avalaible... "hey guys can we squeeze a 15-20 min ITF before i go to work?"....
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Mostly we all just wing it.
This. On squishies I've spent better parts of certain missions face planted because there was no point in even trying. The soloists and speed runners did their thing, and we all moved on.
If the speed runners couldn't finish the mish, I assume we would have regrouped and all went together for a regular team type run. But it wasn't needed, so no big deal.