Dr. Graves hurts my brain...
By
Arcanaville,
Posted on: 2011-09-16 07:52 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
Because a) nothing, not even the Archangel Michael posting "Taser, knock it off, you're wrong" is going to change your mind, and b) you didn't bother to read the arc in the first place. I only responded for the potential benefit of spectators.
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No one else who reviewed it thought so.| Why is your thread devoid of characterization or story? |
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| Why does even your explanation for Generic Avenger's motives make little to no sense and certainly aren't explained in the arc itself? |
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| Why did you overload tiny maps with glowies and then select to have them all spawn in the same section of the map? |
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| Why do the Rikti want to attack Boomtown and Steel Canyon? That's never explained. |
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| Why would Malta work with the Rikti in the first place? That's never explained other than a generic 'villains working together' handwave cliche. |
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| Why would Crimson call in Vanguard instead of Longbow, who he has worked for? |
Current Blog Post: "Why I am an Atheist..."
"And I say now these kittens, they do not get trained/As we did in the days when Victoria reigned!" -- T. S. Eliot, "Gus, the Theatre Cat"
I liked Dr Graves arc. As a matter of fact, that's the first time I felt somewhat involved in the story of the game, rather than point and laugh at all of it being so bad and childish in the way it assumes the protagonist is an omnipotent being.
No more godmodding here, nor bland killing a warehouse of glowies before being fed a fanfiction-like wall of text. My character actually acted roughly as she should at this point in her career, with down-to-earth reactions (save for the mind bomb part ; that was a bit too much), and so did the NPCs.
I especially liked the player dialog, as it felt like something that made sense to say in such a situation, at that power level. Laying low by playing dumb, but not so stupid that important people wouldn't want to work with you, slowly making alliances and getting more resources without drawing attention to yourself, would be a big part of surviving somewhere like the Rogue Isles in my opinion, and this arc hit it just right, as opposed to the rest of the game where you generally spend your time doing stuff that should have arbiters play soccer with your head within days.
It took me halfway through it to notice it also acted as a tutorial, as the different locations were woven nicely into the story.
The recurring characters were fun ; even Crosscut, even though the creepy psychopath theme is a bit lame and overdone these days, is pulled off well. I liked that everyone was generally hostile to my character, as they should be, and had motivations of their own rather than being pawns reactive to my actions.
I didn't see either of the twists coming, and in hindsight immediately saw that I should have seen both coming, the clues that I missed or ignored ; that's the best kind of twists, if you ask me.
The ending was especially nice ; neat unique map, fun fight and having Scirocco saving the day for his own purposes was just the cherry on top, wrapping it all up by giving the player character a reward (as Graves says himself) as well as once again, handling the game universe much better than telling the player he's essentially Superman, with threats that are actually threatening.
It all made sense, is how I'd sum it up, and feels more mature than most of the storytelling done outside of Praetoria, which was a nice and unexpected surprise. I hope to see more of that sort of stuff in the future.
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I don't fear criticism, either. But placing my work as an example of "good" when criticising the "bad," myself, usually invokes less criticism per se and more tearing down the opposition. I typically write for fun, not to compete.
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Originally Posted by Venture
I don't fear criticism. It's an important part of improving your skills.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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It's ok to give a poor review to something if you play it for a reason other than to bash it, but it turns out to be bad. If you play something just to bash it, then you prove nothing.|
Originally Posted by Friggin_Taser
So Sam and Venture writing "snarky reviews" of Graves arc doesn't prove a point either? Or is it only okay to snarkily review something if it aligns with your self interest?
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(And yes, I was one of the people who played a bunch of farms just to bash them, so don't even bother pointing that out. Nobody took those reviews seriously either.)
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| And snarky review nothing. I wasted an hour playing his arc in earnest. It was bad and he should feel bad. He is the one who said it was better than something someone was paid to write. He was the one who stuck his neck out. If I played the arc and it was actually *gasp* good, I would say so. But it so so isn't. |
Eva Destruction AR/Fire/Munitions Blaster
Darkfire Avenger DM/SD/Body Scrapper
Arc ID#161629 Freaks, Geeks, and Men in Black
Arc ID#431270 Until the End of the World
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Please don't take this as a put-down, but I think you're biassed. Your character fit the very, very, VERY narrow niche of character types the arc is written for, and so you had fun. My character did not fit it at all. Mine was intended to be aggressively intelligent, which the arc doesn't allow for (and which doesn't require super powers), VERY reserved in her mannerisms, to say nothing of polite to an exception, which the arc doesn't permit with the boorish attitude in the dialogues, very precise in her expression and very exacting in her command of the English language, something that the borderline slang and plethora of ellipses in the given dialogue don't permit, and above all dignified in her conduct with everyone and anyone.|
Originally Posted by Nihilii
No more godmodding here, nor bland killing a warehouse of glowies before being fed a fanfiction-like wall of text. My character actually acted roughly as she should at this point in her career, with down-to-earth reactions (save for the mind bomb part ; that was a bit too much), and so did the NPCs.
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I played through the arc with Mother Haggan, my cultist technocrat who serves as technical engineer to an Order of Salvation superficially dedicated to eradicating all evil, but practically and most often seem massacring innocents on suspicion of being tainted by evil. Of all the Order cultists, Haggan is the only one who didn't join the Order through indignity, and as such is immune to insults by virtue of her almost infinite patience and well-skilled in verbal debate by virtue of her wide breadth of knowledge and high intelligence. She is capable of handling both high praise and humble humiliation with the same stoic dignity.
Virtually NOTHING about this character works in this arc. The villain the arc assumes I'm playing is a low-brow, rude, impatient, angry villain all too eager to strike it big, but like Willy Wheeler not really succeeding without the help of a mysterious benefactor, in this case Scirocco. I do not, as a point of fact, have ANY characters that fit the template this arc requires. Had I known it required my villain to be an oaf, I would never have run it, but there are two problems with this particular act of clairvoyance:
1. No other arc in the game - at least that I'm aware of - assumes so much about my character and requires this specific a character for its dialogue to make sense. Some are more railroading and specific than others, but just about ALL of them will work with all characters to some degree. This one doesn't. At all.
2. At no point anywhere in the arc am I given a clear idea of exactly what kind of villain I'm expected to bring to the party - the stuttering kind, it turns out. The only way to know what the arc expects me to bring is to play it, invariably with the WRONG villain, so that I can infer from its style and narrative what it wants me to be, and only AFTER that can I know what to bring. It didn't truly dawn on me just how unlike anything I've ever made my villain had to be in order to make sense, which was far, far, FAR too late.
I'm glad it made sense for your villain to act this way. It didn't for mine. At all. It was, in fact, almost diametrically opposed to what would have made sense for my villain, and the lack of options really cements this to being specific to only one kind of villain anyway. I don't like an arc which puts words in my mouth and doesn't let me choose what those words are, simply because what the writers think is cool almost never seems to match up to what I think is appropriate. Choice is one solution to the problem and NOT NOT NOT putting words in my mouth is another.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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Hey Sam I agree with you.. I did the hero side tutorial on Beta and was very impressed. A long time ago you, me and others made it clear we felt the old tutorial was lacking and they needed to improve. To my amazement they did just what we asked. Heck the thing even gives a sgort course in map reading as you try to locate various buildings on your mini map.
Then on live I created a new villain and decided to see how the villain side stuff compared. About the only thing I can compliment them on is for the first time in going on 6 years I didn't get SICK of fighting nothing but snakes, snakes and more snakes on Mercy. Actually battling Longbow and the RI Police seemed perfect for a brand new villain eager to make a name for herself. And Then i was introduced to Doc Graves. The story line is no where near as interesting as the hero side and the whole "competition" thing just seemed a bit boring. Thankfully, in my case, I really don't need a tutorial so my villains will simply be running sewer trials for the buffs and potential new low level SO enhancers it awards.
�We�re always the good guys. In D&D, we�re lawful good. In City of Heroes we�re the heroes. In Grand Theft Auto we pay the prostitutes promptly and never hit them with a bat.� � Leonard
�Those women are prostitutes? You said they were raising money for stem cell research!� � Sheldon
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That, or something like it, may well be what I end up doing. I think I'll just run with Operative Whatshisface until I hit level five, then ship off to Port Oaks and find work there. Get away from the new content as quickly as possible, as it were.|
Originally Posted by Wicked_Wendy
Thankfully, in my case, I really don't need a tutorial so my villains will simply be running sewer trials for the buffs and potential new low level SO enhancers it awards.
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You know what's funny, though? At the end of Graves' third arc, I told him "This has been a massive waste of my time!" and he said "Has it really? You got a lot more powerful and now you have a patron." Yes, I got a lot more powerful, but no thanks to your shoddy missions devoid of any action and thus devoid of any XP. I got strong doing OTHER stuff, like Veluta Lunata's missions, which brought me three times the experience all three of Graves' arcs combined. And yes, I got an Archnos patron... That I never wanted in the first place. That I have argued AGAINST having since I7 rolled around and told me I had to have a Patron to have a Patron Pool.
I honestly thought we'd gotten past the whole "brownie points with the Spiders" and "good := Longbow, evil := Arachnos" nonsense and the game was heading in a bold new direction. But now. It's the same kowtowing to Recluse and his circus and the same old eagerness to serve Arachnos. You know "How to fix villain-side?" Not like that!
When I read about the new starting content villain-side, people had me convinced that it's far more self-serving than the old one, that I could kill a lot of my contacts and be my own villain. That's precisely what I was told - repeatedly - in the "fix red-side" thread. And yet it's the same old trudge. I've been able to kill a grand total of ONE contact that didn't even bother me all that much and I've had be Arachnos' monkey because big ole Scirocco effectively bullied me into it with threats of violence and implications that if I don't, he'll actually war shoes instead of running around in his pantihose.
I may not be crawling through literal caves hunting literal Snakes for Arachnos, but I'm still crawling through caves hunting snakes for Arachnos. As let-downs go, this one was massive.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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I think the problem you had, and its a problem I think you tend to have with introductory content, is that the devs tend to assume in most of the low level content that whatever your backstory from the perspective of getting to the point of becoming a hero or villain in the game your real adventures mostly start with the beginning of the game. The game doesn't assume you've had decades of adventures and are now taking a vacation in Paragon City or the Rogue Isles. They don't assume you have already decided a trajectory for your character. They assume you're mostly a blank slate, and will adapt to the story line.|
Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
I played through the arc with Mother Haggan, my cultist technocrat who serves as technical engineer to an Order of Salvation superficially dedicated to eradicating all evil, but practically and most often seem massacring innocents on suspicion of being tainted by evil. Of all the Order cultists, Haggan is the only one who didn't join the Order through indignity, and as such is immune to insults by virtue of her almost infinite patience and well-skilled in verbal debate by virtue of her wide breadth of knowledge and high intelligence. She is capable of handling both high praise and humble humiliation with the same stoic dignity.
Virtually NOTHING about this character works in this arc. The villain the arc assumes I'm playing is a low-brow, rude, impatient, angry villain all too eager to strike it big, but like Willy Wheeler not really succeeding without the help of a mysterious benefactor, in this case Scirocco. I do not, as a point of fact, have ANY characters that fit the template this arc requires. Had I known it required my villain to be an oaf, I would never have run it, but there are two problems with this particular act of clairvoyance: |
That's not always a safe assumption, but there's no way to make any other assumption that will work for even a tiny percentage of the players, unless you make the stories themselves be such blank slates there's little story in them.
Personally, I don't mind the villain side intro story too much. I think it does a good job of easing people into the game which is its primary purpose. I do think that the mechanical criticism that in trying to string the player along in a step by step tutorial it can introduce things too late relative to just blandly telling me up front is valid. I haven't put enough thought into it to have an opinion on the best way to resolve that, though.
Incidentally, I didn't feel the arc was forcing me into the pigeonhole of being a shallow opportunist myself. I thought it left a door open to being a crafty opportunist interested less in "hitting it big" and more in playing along to expose what was going on. It didn't specifically address whether I was forced into cooperating with Arachnos, or was willing to play along with them as well to keep the game in motion. I did tell them to stuff themselves at the end, the option of which I thought allowed me to assert that I wasn't serving Graves and I wasn't serving Arachnos either, I was just trying to expose what each was up to for my own purposes.
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And it's always been like that - an expereinced hero arriving in the city would never be given a security level of 1 |
Originally Posted by Arcanaville
I think the problem you had, and its a problem I think you tend to have with introductory content, is that the devs tend to assume in most of the low level content that whatever your backstory from the perspective of getting to the point of becoming a hero or villain in the game your real adventures mostly start with the beginning of the game. The game doesn't assume you've had decades of adventures and are now taking a vacation in Paragon City or the Rogue Isles. They don't assume you have already decided a trajectory for your character. They assume you're mostly a blank slate, and will adapt to the story line.
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@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
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My personal take on the mind-bomb was my character was 'playing the role of the hapless hero' and going through the stupid motions to 'foil the plan'.|
Originally Posted by Nihilii
My character actually acted roughly as she should at this point in her career, with down-to-earth reactions (save for the mind bomb part ; that was a bit too much), and so did the NPCs.
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I mean, even after Yu tells you point blank it's nothing *shrug*.
Let's Dance!
Dollface used her superpowers on you to make you believe you had a brain bomb. She has the superpower of super suggestion.
I'm not bothered by the narrative as a whole.
It has elements that work for many kinds of villains. It has a lot of entertaining dialogue and gameplay elements. So what if it's not what my character would say? It's in the flavor of WHAT he would say, at least.
Besides... At this point, you're a newbie! How can you be an ultimate bad-*** without making some mistakes along the way. Whoops, that computer almost killed me... I won't fall for that again! And you don't.
Your character is still learning the ropes as this group strings you along. If that's not how you roleplay your character, then there's nothing this arc has for you, but there's also no reason to whine about this story because you weren't really incorporating it into your canon anyway.
No, I'm bothered with the "Yoke of Arachnos" at the end.
I am getting sick and tired of Arachnos figuring so extremely heavily into the overall game of City of Villains, especially since their depiction is deteriorating more and more with each issue. They're irrelevant to the rest of the world: "Ooh, Arachnos is the Big Time of supervillainy, but they only operate out of these crappy tiny islands and only attack ONE city that is only three hours away!" They're incapable: "Don't worry about the rampant infighting, Villain. It builds character! It also leaves us REALLY WIDE OPEN for security breaches, turning factions against each other and other things you don't want your military doing..." And, according to Prometheus *SPOILERS* Recluse is a coward in the end, not really employing the true full might of his power.
So... We do this arc that dangles a new option in front of our faces... Only to have that get snatched away and Arachnos swoops in to slap that yoke firmly on our necks again.
Because, you know, in comic books, villainy has to have an overall faction, and Hydra and Cobra were taken.
My Stories
Look at that. A full-grown woman pulling off pigtails. Her crazy is off the charts.
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I'm done arguing writing, continuity, or characterization with Venture.|
Originally Posted by Calibre
FT, you're way out of line on this track. Far better to FTB and salvage some dignity, IMO.
Cal |
He showed his hand. If he thinks a horribly written story arc that just slams two villain groups together and apparently explains everything away with movie quotes he mangles and references to in-game memes is a better story than Dr. Graves, I can't help him.
I just know Paragon Studios won't be beating down his door to offer him a mission writer contract anytime soon. There are farm missions that have better storylines than what he considers "Better than Dr. Graves." During his missions, MARTy should trip off and request you play a better AE arc that actually has some semblance of coherent plot.
Every time Venture screams "IT WAS EXPLAINED IN THE ARC," an angel must get its wings. Because I took my time through it and made sure to read every bit of contact dialogue and NPC dialogue and none of what he claims is explained is. Unless he thinks handwaving and cliched storywriting explains it on its own without him stating it.
Current Badge Hunter: Plot Device (Rad/Thermal/Dark) - 1,268 Xbox Live: Friggin Taser
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Except this is not the end, this is the beginning. There's no "again" in an arc intended for the very beginning. Updating the intro arcs so Arachnos doesn't factor into them strongly would make no sense when players would subsequently venture past them into arcs that *are* heavily influenced by Arachnos.
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Originally Posted by Mr_Grey
No, I'm bothered with the "Yoke of Arachnos" at the end.
I am getting sick and tired of Arachnos figuring so extremely heavily into the overall game of City of Villains, especially since their depiction is deteriorating more and more with each issue. They're irrelevant to the rest of the world: "Ooh, Arachnos is the Big Time of supervillainy, but they only operate out of these crappy tiny islands and only attack ONE city that is only three hours away!" They're incapable: "Don't worry about the rampant infighting, Villain. It builds character! It also leaves us REALLY WIDE OPEN for security breaches, turning factions against each other and other things you don't want your military doing..." And, according to Prometheus *SPOILERS* Recluse is a coward in the end, not really employing the true full might of his power. So... We do this arc that dangles a new option in front of our faces... Only to have that get snatched away and Arachnos swoops in to slap that yoke firmly on our necks again. Because, you know, in comic books, villainy has to have an overall faction, and Hydra and Cobra were taken. |
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(Please support the best webcomic about a cosmic universal realignment by impaired angelic interference resulting in identity crisis angst. Or I release the pigmy water thieves.)
Arachnos actually makes a bit of a comeback in I21, after being pushed aside by the loyalists as the main villain group in the past few Issues - but now they're getting up to all kinds of moustache twirling antics in both the low level revamps.
@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
While I've argued with both Sam and Venture about various arcs
I like Roy Coolings, it's not bad
I like the Origin of powers, it's not bad
I like the Incarnate stories, they're not bad
I like Twinshot so far (Though it might just be the Plant/Time that's unrelentingly awesome) *Hoorb*
I had to read through Dr Graves storyline quick and while it seemed, when skimming, like the standard Tourny for limitless power type deal. It just doesn't work. It could be made to work, but as it is I just can't seem to defend it.
Murphys Military Law
#23. Teamwork is essential; it gives the enemy other people to shoot at.
#46. If you can't remember, the Claymore is pointed towards you.
#54. Killing for peace is like screwing for virginity.
Dr. Graves has one of the best lines in the game.
See my signature.
'nuff said.
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That seems like the kind of twirling that'd fit right in with the new moustache enhanced red side stuff |
Originally Posted by Shadow Walk
Dr. Graves has one of the best lines in the game.
See my signature. 'nuff said. |
@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
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Simply put, none of the other people who have commented on the arc had any of the complaints you've had. That's including people who didn't like it. Of course, none of them made multiple errors of fact in their comments, either.| Every time Venture screams "IT WAS EXPLAINED IN THE ARC," an angel must get its wings. Because I took my time through it and made sure to read every bit of contact dialogue and NPC dialogue and none of what he claims is explained is. Unless he thinks handwaving and cliched storywriting explains it on its own without him stating it. |
Now, you did say you would lay bare all of my faults. I have four more playable arcs for you. I'm perfectly prepared to watch you humiliate yourself over those, too.
Current Blog Post: "Why I am an Atheist..."
"And I say now these kittens, they do not get trained/As we did in the days when Victoria reigned!" -- T. S. Eliot, "Gus, the Theatre Cat"
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Originally Posted by Friggin_Taser
I'm done arguing writing, continuity, or characterization with Venture.
He showed his hand. If he thinks a horribly written story arc that just slams two villain groups together and apparently explains everything away with movie quotes he mangles and references to in-game memes is a better story than Dr. Graves, I can't help him. I just know Paragon Studios won't be beating down his door to offer him a mission writer contract anytime soon. There are farm missions that have better storylines than what he considers "Better than Dr. Graves." During his missions, MARTy should trip off and request you play a better AE arc that actually has some semblance of coherent plot. Every time Venture screams "IT WAS EXPLAINED IN THE ARC," an angel must get its wings. Because I took my time through it and made sure to read every bit of contact dialogue and NPC dialogue and none of what he claims is explained is. Unless he thinks handwaving and cliched storywriting explains it on its own without him stating it. |
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Originally Posted by Venture
Simply put, none of the other people who have commented on the arc had any of the complaints you've had. That's including people who didn't like it. Of course, none of them made multiple errors of fact in their comments, either.
Now, you did say you would lay bare all of my faults. I have four more playable arcs for you. I'm perfectly prepared to watch you humiliate yourself over those, too. |
Taser, I admire your guts for calling out Venture when so many other people seem to be afraid too for some reason, but going "LET'S SEE YOU DO BETTER" is in no way a rational response to the original argument. Now you're just attacking him to try and make him look bad, not trying to refute his original points.
Venture, you're just as bad because you fell for it. Did you honestly think Taser was going to end up liking your arc? No. He's just trying to knock you down a few pegs. Yet for some reason you played right into his hand and now you're in the middle of a shouting match that's going nowhere. As they say elsewhere: "Don't feed the trolls", and you seem incapable of following that rule.
God, you're all like a bunch of 12 year olds who think they're smart because they can quote things and write walls of text! Get down off your high horses, and grow the hell up. Nobody likes your holier than thou attitude.
That goes for you too Eva. And Sam on bad days. Golden Girl...uh...you have a completely different problem.
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Isn't that what the Dr. Graves arcs are all about? |
Originally Posted by Mr_Squid
You're both humiliating yourselves.
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@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
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OF COURSE NOT! I've been on these forums as long as he has, I know exactly what he's like. But as a guy just across the river from me likes to say, there's no such thing as bad publicity. I'll likely get a few plays out of this, no one will care what Taser thinks and I've gotten the better of him in any case, as I knew I would. I've been dealing with his type since 300 baud was all the rage.| Venture, you're just as bad because you fell for it. Did you honestly think Taser was going to end up liking your arc? |
*tosses Squid a brass bolt*
Really now.
Current Blog Post: "Why I am an Atheist..."
"And I say now these kittens, they do not get trained/As we did in the days when Victoria reigned!" -- T. S. Eliot, "Gus, the Theatre Cat"
He's only doing the same thing as you Venture, being overly critical and analyzing every little thing under a microscope.
Everyone has their opinions, then there are those who will just give lip service to those that are popular, you are not the exception.
Just to get it out there, I'm not discounting your ability to write a better story than most, since writing isn't something everybody can be at least somewhat good at.
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She's been mind-wiped? |
Originally Posted by Mr_Squid
Golden Girl...uh...you have a completely different problem.
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(Love the post, btw.)
Michelle
aka
Samuraiko/Dark_Respite
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THE COURSE OF SUPERHERO ROMANCE CONTINUES!
Book I: A Tale of Nerd Flirting! ~*~ Book II: Courtship and Crime Fighting - Chap Nine live!
MA Arcs - 3430: Hell Hath No Fury / 3515: Positron Gets Some / 6600: Dyne of the Times / 351572: For All the Wrong Reasons
378944: Too Clever by Half / 459581: Kill or Cure / 551680: Clerical Errors (NEW!)
Cal