Dr. Graves hurts my brain...

True... It works for a good introduction for new players...

But the whole point to being a villain has always been the "I DO WHAT I WANT! To HELL with the consequences!"

And having Arachnos come along and go "Prove you are the greatest ever... So long as you OBEY!" is pretty much counter-intuitive of that concept.

Paragon has the character being on his own from the outset. Even when Twinshot brings you into her crew, you're still relatively on your own. When you move beyond the scope of her crew, you're DEFINITELY on your own, working like a freelance detective, with next to no tangible support or apparent notice from the authorities.

But in the Rogue Isles, Big Spider is always watching...

With those eight beady little eyes...

But then... I suppose there are all sorts of ways for a crafty roleplayer to work around that. Indeed, the main story DOES leave you with the "Well, you ARE just a freelancer, after all..." reality. You're a deniable asset, so that helps.

Just... How is a proper mad scientist supposed to get anything done with all of that oppression looming overhead!?

That's a very good way of putting it. The new introduction missions tend to assume that my character is a blank slate which didn't really exist prior to getting caught in that building collapse in Galaxy City, and that I will be building this character up from events that happen to him/her over the course of said character's adventures. Speaking from the perspective of a less customizable, less story-driven RPG, I can see how this might be a safe bet. After all, most Fantasy ones tend to start with you being a peaceful farmer, your village getting murdered and "What kind of hero will you be?"

This has never been the case for me. Ever. At no point have I made a "blank slate" character in City of Heroes who made it past level 10 without being deleted to make room for a much more interesting character with a long, complex backstory. Even if we ignore my whims, it was my impression that even traditional P&P RPG characters came with baggage and backstory. In fact, playing your typical aD&D story, such as Icewind Dale, the game would attempt to auto-generate backstory for my characters, describing their past adventures in vague detail, and explaining why they all ended up in the same tavern at the same time to form their party.

For me, making a blank slate character is functionally impossible due to the process by which I create them. For me, inspiration tends to come from other media. I'll find a character concept that someone else has done that I really like and remember it. I'll roll it around in my head for a few weeks until I have an idea for who this character is, how he came to be, what adventures he lived through and why I think he's cool enough to make. Only once I have a complete, fleshed-out, whole character with backstory, motivation, personality and actual character will I ever consider making said character. In essence, none of my characters will set foot in City of Heroes until they've actually had a lifetime of adventure. Even when they're not direct transplants of old stories I've written, they're still transplants of other complete stories I made up just for said character specifically.

"But Sam" I can hear people saying "you can't expect your eldritch god come to earth to have the power to juggle planets from level one!" Of course not. That's why every character I make has explicit reasons for why his amazing power is limited at the start of the story, even if he had it in full control at the end of his origin story. The reasons vary, but they're usually convincing. A few random examples for no real reason:

Inna is supposed to have as close to "absolute power" as I've ever depicted. She doesn't however, because said power is scattered across the infinite cosmos and it will take a very, very long time before she can reabsorb it.

Stardiver is an indestructible, enormously powerful ancient automaton who feeds on the energy at the cores of stars. So why isn't she enormously powerful now? Well, she recharged from the sun recently, and it takes her a very long time to "cool down" before her systems can resume operating at peak capacity.

Mother Haggan: The woman in question. She never had amazing power to begin with, she was just a very smart, very amoral scientist. It wasn't until she was picked up by the Order that she gained the ability to implant real cybernetics into her body and operate the facilities needed to develop more. It will take time before she can make herself stronger and possible smarter.

I'm not a god-mongering Mary Sue, believe it or not. I'm just fine with my power being limited in the low levels. Hell, seeing that level 40 Storm Elemental at level 16 was actually genuinely very cool (though a unique description for the thing would have been cool). It's not power level that bothers me, it's the game writing my characters for me that I really don't like. And that's precisely what Dr. Graves' arc does - it writes my character for me as something I didn't intend to write.

---

On the whole, I don't agree that story arcs can't be written to not assume who we are as characters and still be good. So long as the arc asks me to do things that make sense from a logical or rational standpoint, assuming we're using the logic and rationale of evil, then that's enough motivation to drive the plot without having to write out my dialogue in ellipsis-laden text. I don't need to be told why I want to do something - that should be up to me to decide. I don't need to be told how I react to something - that should be up to me to decide. I don't need to be told what I said - that, too, should be up to me to decide.

The game's narrative should focus on events - actions and consequences, as Maros puts it - and let US decide why we choose to do what we're told to do, how we react to it and how we go about it. The last thing I want is the game role-playing for me.

Originally Posted by Arcanaville Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.

I think the Praetorian Power arc is probably the closest to this we've ever seen in this game, even if that too assumes I want publicity. A lot of it comes down to the moral choice arcs, I think. There's that word again: Choice.

On the one hand, you have the inexplicably Resistance choice, which is basically "Woah, I'm in trouble here, and I need help to save myself from the Loyalists!" which, really, is a reasonable thing to do. How long CAN you live a lie before your sins catch up to you? On the other hand, there is the POWER choice, which is basically "I'm in trouble? Bah! No-one controls me! The Loyalists want to use me? I would like to see them try!" and that's also a reasonable thing to think, if you were just that confident in your own abilities.

It's that "To hell with your realism! I'm too cool for that!" line of thinking which is sorely missing from both Villain-side AND the end of the Power arc where you have to essentially kiss up to Tyrant as your final moral choice. Even if I shied away from using my own work as examples of how villains can exist within the City of Heroes fictional world without being someone's lackey, I can still point to the Power arcs and go "Like that! More please!" We know this is doable, we know this is awesome, so why couldn't we have had more arcs like that on the actual villain-side?

Originally Posted by Arcanaville Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.

Thats how I felt after playing the arc and much preferred to the existing low level red content. Had we been given the option to fight "that character at the end" I would have been happier though.

I'd have been happier if Scirocco wore shoes, but that's besides the point.

Personally, if I had a choice, I'd choose to work with Kalinda or Mathew Burke. I have very little interest in Arachnos and even less interest in Longbow and no interest at all in their struggle for power. If I had the option to fight Snakes and rob banks instead of being dragged into yet another Arachnos vs. Longbow struggle, I would definitely choose that. Hell, Moongoose was and is my favourite low-level contact. But we can't have instances in the low-level content, so...

As for Graves, I'm not playing that arc again. Ever. Even if just for the hideous dialogue trees. I will not have words put in my mouth without being given a choice in what they are, and if it means avoiding new content, then so be it.

Originally Posted by Arcanaville Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.

Because the Loyalist Power path isn't villainous. It's the Rogue path. The villainous path is the Resistance Crusader path - you know; follow your leader blindly and cause all kinds of death, chaos and destruction, as long as you oppose your world's version of Statesman.

Wait, what? The only way to be villainous is to follow your leader blindly? Are you seriously saying what it sounds like you're saying?

The power arc is only a "rogue" path because City of Heroes decided to be anal about its degrees of villainy. It's not a hero's path, it's not good AND it has the benefit of being the most dignified storyline in probably the entire game, heroes and villains included. You end up crossing a lot of people, you end up putting a lot of people in danger, you end up killing a lot of people for your own ends.

Yes, Power characters end up helping people. So? Should "evil" be defined as "the opposite of good" where how villainous a character is is decided by what a very heroic character would do in any given situation and reverse-calculating what the opposite would be? Do no villains ever in fiction or real life end up inadvertently helping people? Are do no villains gain power and comfort by essentially tricking people into liking them and giving them stuff for free and granting them amazing power? Is that not precisely what Lex Luthor is?

Easy example: I'm a self-interested villain. I arrive in a small town where a vicious gang is oppressing the local people for protection money. I don't care about that one bit, until the gang leader comes to try and muscle money out of me. I pop his head off his shoulders like a Barbie doll and his gang scatters to the four winds. The whole town is happy and offers to give me supplies on the road ahead. Does that make all the mass graves I filled in in the previous town over any LESS evil?

We're back to the same old root problem - "evil" is badly misunderstood in this game. It's drawn up as the opposite of good, and if good is pleasant, then evil must therefore be unpleasant. Frankly, the entirety of Dr. Graves' storyline, excluding the very end of it (somewhat) is largely unpleasant. In many ways, it feels like someone took the Twinshot arc and made one that's diametrically the opposite, ignoring any of the subtleties of what makes a good villain, and the fact the heroes and villains are more alike than most people think.

Villains should not hail from Saturday morning cartoons where they cackle about how they will "Rul ze vorld!" and hissing like a vampire at a cross every time they accidentally do something even remotely good.

Originally Posted by Arcanaville Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.

This is a comicbook game

And even then, Villains can still do good things by helping out the Heroes on all the co-op content

A villain is a villain is a villain. What kind of villain is only secondary to that main point. Maybe the Power arcs aren't the most disgusting, repugnant kind of evil in the game. Maybe the most entertaining kind of evil ISN'T the most disgusting, repugnant kind. That's my whole point - Praetorian Power arcs prove that you can have a self-serving villain who isn't motivated by the desire to be anyone's lackey and who manages to achieve greatness without being a stooge. I want more arcs like these.

Sure, Power villains don't kick puppies and eat babies. Sure, Power villains don't want to destroy all humans. Sure, Power villains don't salivate at the thought of torturing the weak and defiling the innocent. None of that is integral to a good or a cool villain. The Power arcs prove that. Yet we never seem to get more of them and we never seem to get them villain-side.

Why is it possible for me to be both famous, respected and HAPPY and still be a villain in Praetoria, but once I step into Primal Earth I'm suddenly required to be hated, petty and bitter in order to be a villain? Why can't I be a villain like the Praeotiran Power arcs, but on the Rogue Isles?

Originally Posted by Arcanaville Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.

I think because people who actually like villains don't write story arcs. I'll be honest: I can barely *read* the side switching arcs going towards the villain side anymore. It actually detracts from my fun just how strongly most (not all) of them specifically set out to state categorically just how much I'm "falling" and just how absolutely disgusted I should be with myself.

You know, that's all fine and good, but you shouldn't sell a game called "City of Villains," make most of the story arcs tell the player they should be disgusted with themselves for not slitting their wrists right there at the key board, and then *wonder* why the red side seems less popular than the blue side.

Either they think their playerbase is full of masochists, or illiterates.

I once told Positron I would like to play villains that run the gamut between Magneto and the Joker, not Eric Cartman and the Human Centipede.

They don't even do kicking puppies and eating babies correctly. They don't write (player) villains that eat babies and lick their fingers afterwards. They write villains that eat babies and then have an attack of conscience about it. If I'm going to be a villain, I want to be this villain:



or at least this villain:



or at least, jeez, let me be at least as happy as this one:




Anything but this:

That specific part of it I actually don't mind too much. It makes me hate the Arbiters, and hate Arachnos, and set me up for the eventual moment when I hand Recluse his helmet and tell him to make a move, punk, or leave me the hell alone.

Major Kong isn't a villain!

That's more or less exactly what I've been trying to say. The people who like playing villains and reading stories about villains don't seem to be the same people who actually write the villain stories, and that's a cryin' shame. I've said it time and time again - not many people like playing villain-side because villain-side doesn't want you to like playing it. The entire body of content, bar almost no one single task, is purpose-designed to turn you off playing a villain, beat into your head how much you should hate yourself for what you're doing and depress you into next week. This is not conducive to a good game of any sort.

When I first found my lefts for playing villains, I realised a simple truth: As long as the game and its story are fun, then I'm perfectly happy to play the bad guy. As long as it doesn't disgust me or beat me over the head with how much I should hate myself, I'm perfectly happy playing the bad guy. All of the times I've wanted to just grab a person by the back of the neck and smash his face through an oak table but refrained as a hero, I could do as a villain. All the times I've had to defend jerkasses I hated but couldn't abandon as a hero, I could as a villain. All the times I had to hold back as a hero, I could let loose as a villain. In essence, where heroes couldn't have fun because they had to be good, villains COULD have fun because they weren't constrained by moral or ethical rules.

In short, if I can stop worrying about morality and ethics - like an actual villain would - then I can enjoy myself regardless of the context. I've played Carmageddon and had tons of fun smearing civilians' body parts all over Max's Junkyard, I've played Prototype and had fun throwing tanks full of people at helicopters full of people, I've played Stubbs the Zombie and had a blast eating people's brains. If the game presents me with a fun experience within which to engage in these activities and DOESN'T make a point to make me feel sorry for doing them, then that game can be fun while playing a villain.

City of Villains - a game named after the act of playing a villain, pretty much - is not that game, and it's a cryin' shame.

Please, Paragon - find someone who enjoys playing villains for fun rather than out of masochism or sadism and have that person write a few arcs. I'd love to run them. Hell, I could write a few arcs where you play a villain AND you end up feeling good about yourself both all the way throughout and after it's all over. They may not be very GOOD, but they'll at least attempt to make people HAPPY for having chosen to be evil, because I'M happy to have chosen to be evil. The more the game tries to ruin my happiness, the less I'll want to make more villains ever again.

This is where I completely lot it! Thank you, I needed that

Originally Posted by Arcanaville Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.

And the subsequent moments he can never mention it again until you talk to him about incarnate powers and you continue to use them as an infrastructure?

The essential charm of a villain is freedom and independence, and they've not comprehended that, and from the latest arcs, still don't comprehend it.

But he's happy!

On the one hand, it makes sense. On the other hand, Arachnos is poorly handled because they serve as the game's backdrop, rather than a step in character progress. Picture this:

You start the game as an Arachnos stooge. All of your contacts insult you, you're always doing everyone's grunt work and things are pretty much as they are now. Then at around level 30 you start getting a little too strong for Arachnos to handle you. You cross the Arbiters, they try to take you down but fail. Arachnos comes after you in force and cut off access to the Quartermasters and Reclimators, but you run an arc which allows you to use scavenged reclimators hidden around the Isles and you can buy enhancements off underground traders. You get into a fight with Arachnos, you blow up something important to them, they hurt you badly, you retreat to heal up. After a while, Recluse and you have a chat. You decide that the petty rivalry has to stop because it's costing both of you too much, and lo and behold, Praetorians are on the horizon. Essentially, you don't bug me, I don't bug you and we all live happily ever after.

This happens at level 30. From then on Arachnos continues to exist as an enemy faction, they continue to rule the Isles, you can even work for them if you want, but you're no longer indebted to them, they have no more power over you and you can actually work to undercut them from there on out. Again, this happens at LEVEL 30, not level 50, and frees up most of your high-level game to be self-serving if you want it to be. Maybe even visit an island that isn't under Arachnos control, why not?

My point is that I really wouldn't mind being a stooge for Arachnos if it led to something, but it really doesn't. A token acknowledgement right at the end of the game is appreciated, but too little too late, and I STILL have to have sucked up to Arachnos and served under their Patrons to get to that point. I want to DEFY Arachnos, not serve them so well I become a liability.

Originally Posted by Arcanaville Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.

Perhaps, but that's not a knock against the intro arc itself, because the intro arc can't address any of that on its own. It does create the *opening* to do that, which is why I don't mind that specific aspect of Graves.

Well, he initiates doomsday, although he's mostly following orders. He's a little too cheery about it, though. Rogue?