Dr. Graves hurts my brain...
By
Arcanaville,
Posted on: 2011-09-16 07:52 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
When I took my new Sonic/Time Corruptor through Graves first set of missions I had a very similar reaction to Samuel's. My Corruptor is vane, pompous and arrogant, in spite of not having any tools (ie powers) to back that up very far (And yes, we all know individuals like that in real life). So having words put into the character's mouth that he wouldn't have said, was a bit jarring.
A bit of history; when the Mission Architect was first released I'd created a story arc that I thought wasn't half bad. The BIGGEST complaint I received was that, in some of my narrative, I was telling the players that their toon had "done things" that weren't in character. Unfortunately, the first arc smacks of the same thing I'd done.
In general I think they've done an OK job with things. I just think the dialog tree should have a few more options.
Throwing darts at the board to see if something sticks.....
Come show your resolve and fight my brute!
Tanks: Gauntlet, the streak breaker and you!
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Originally Posted by PapaSlade
Rangle's right....this is fun.
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I lol'ed.|
Originally Posted by Finsplit
Well, a Lust path might endanger that T rating. And a Sloth path might be hard to write -- or is the Sloth path the one where you just run newspapers and tips till you get to 50?
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Just off the top of my head:
wrath: this is the path where you ultimately create a superweapon or cast an uber spell that destroys the world. Your Contacts are a collection of dupes or nihilistic inventors and cultists. Your missions are full of killing off minor heroes, and you conflict with Doctor Vahzilok and Positron. The default 'voice' is that of the ultraviolent thug/sadist.
greed: this is the path where you ultimately hold hostage/horde all of the world's resources, resulting in a dystopia where only you have resources, and those are running down due to the lack of an infrastructure to produce more. Your missions are filled with robberies and capers, your Contacts are corrupt employees, and you contend with the likes of B A Brawler and Black Scorpion. The default voice is that of the amoral mercenary/businessman.
sloth: this path is all about the slavery. You conflict with Ghost Widow and Sister Psyche. Your missions are kidnappings. Your Contacts are fellow mind controllers/brainwashers and the missions are all about deception and mind screw: think the Micheal Douglas movie The Game. The default voice is that of seductive mastermind. Results in a dystopia that appears to be a utopia until you realize that sentience itself has been abolished, and you essentially are utterly alone. The default voice would be that of the elitist.
pride: all glory to me, baby. On this path, you are the cackling, cape-wearing melodramatist, playing it for all that it is worth. You contend with Statesman and Recluse because it's all about face time. You twirl your mustache, monologue, leave helpless foes in deathtraps while you go off do more important things. Your Contacts are genre savvy snarkers and easily impressed innocents. Results in an over-the-top scheme going wrong and destroying the world. The default voice would be the very stereotype of the super villain.
lust: since apparently drugs are allowed in a Teen setting and sex is not, this path is all about the purple haze. Results in a dystopia of a crumbling economy built around the equivalent of opium dens and virtual reality (!). You conflict with Bastion and Aeon. Your Contacts are dealers and bagmen, with the missions dealing with addiction and drug-addled rampages. The default voice would be that of the dangerous seducer.
envy: this is the default path that already exists. It's all about becoming acknowldedged as the most powerful being in the universe.
gluttony: this Path would be all about consuming resources, probably in the name of Science! Possibly on behalf of some insatiable entity (for the magic types). The missions would be dominated by ever greater needs and demands, and a growing sense of desperation over where and how they can be procured. Your Contacts would be suppliers and manufacturers, leading into a dystopia of a world collapsing due to a total lack of the resources you have consumed. You would contend with Scirocco and Manticore.
In other news, the motivations from the old DC PnP game work just fine as paths/voices, too.
Story Arcs I created:
Every Rose: (#17702) Villainous vs Legacy Chain. Forget Arachnos, join the CoT!
Cosplay Madness!: (#3643) Neutral vs Custom Foes. Heroes at a pop culture convention!
Kiss Hello Goodbye: (#156389) Heroic vs Custom Foes. Film Noir/Hardboiled detective adventure!
The problem I have with Graves is that it only allows one type of Villain, and if you're not that type...it still assumes you are.
Had Necromicus met that first machine and been prodded, he would have used his magics to make Dr. Graves fear his pants so bad Grimm would have come running and complaining about the smell. Had he been told his brain has a Mindbomb he would have laughed and challenged Dollface to a staring contest until he died. Then he would have brought himself back to life and recorded the new information in his book, delighted at the discovery of a new method of killing. Dealing with Omnicore he would have threatened to rip her soul out and shred it to bits if she didn't shut up and start killing things, and he would have probably loved Crosscut.
Nagoh Shan the Arachnos soldier would have had a hard time playing stupid for the Arbiter considering he's a legendary mercenary hired by Arachnos to act as a large scale force multiplier for Arachnos, and had been given free reign to do whatever he wanted so long as he was strong enough to survive. And if someone told him a mysterious benefacter would kick him out if he shot a person taunting him, he'd have shot the person anyway and dared Graves to do something about it. Then he'd give D-mac and epic high five.
Murphys Military Law
#23. Teamwork is essential; it gives the enemy other people to shoot at.
#46. If you can't remember, the Claymore is pointed towards you.
#54. Killing for peace is like screwing for virginity.
^Except that at this point you are, at most, level 10. You're a nobody. You don't have the magical acumen to make anyone **** his or her pants, at least not in the obvious way.
"Men strunt �r strunt och snus �r snus
om ock i gyllne dosor.
Och rosor i ett sprucket krus
�r st�ndigt alltid rosor."
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So are the other characters in this farce.
| Except that at this point you are, at most, level 10. You're a nobody. |
Current Blog Post: "Why I am an Atheist..."
"And I say now these kittens, they do not get trained/As we did in the days when Victoria reigned!" -- T. S. Eliot, "Gus, the Theatre Cat"
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That's not the way the game works - everyone's a rookie when they start at level 1 |
Originally Posted by William_Valence
a legendary mercenary
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@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
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Yes. And by beating them and outwitting them you take the first step towards earning respect, or fear, however you put it.
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Originally Posted by Venture
So are the other characters in this farce.
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"Men strunt �r strunt och snus �r snus
om ock i gyllne dosor.
Och rosor i ett sprucket krus
�r st�ndigt alltid rosor."
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Everyone might start at level 1, but that doesn't mean anything other than where they stand gameplay-wise.|
Originally Posted by Golden Girl
That's not the way the game works - everyone's a rookie when they start at level 1
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Nagoh Shan is the codename of a mercenary well know in the right circles for making groups able to do things their numbers and resources shouldn't allow. After working for a Drug cartel in Mexico for a period of time, the group thought they would be able to handle things on their own. While he directed them in a way that allowed them to ursurp rival cartel's they had no bussiness going up against, when they stopped using his services they found themselves on the wrong side of quite a few angry rivals and their bonesaws. Not under contract anymore, he was contacted by Arachnos. They offered him a job doing the same thing for them, and he accepted. Starting out he took as much as he felt he could without causing too much attention from people who could cause him trouble. (Some armor and a rifle) as he does work for Arachnos his resources grow and he finds himself capable of dealing with larger threats so he swipes more gear and embeds himself more in the group (He levels up and either takes weapons powers or leadership powers)
Necromicus allowed himself to be arrested, so he could test how death affects people in the Prison. When he decided to leave, he started his second experiment. Testing how the acquisiton of power affects the process of death. And with any of his experiments he always runs the tests himself to see if running the tests has any effect of the process. Limiting himself in what kind of abilities he'd use when killing, defending himself, or running his tests wouldn't prevent him from mentioning his praetorian version's Black medicine and how he'd cut out the little control grave's seems to have over himself, and how his bodyparts would make for a beautiful sign that his Cimmeroran counterpart could place in the front of his mausoleum, or how his Axis american counterpart would love to test her essence ripper on him.
"Your screams would be so beautiful, your pain so exquisite, I think I could enjoy them even through these dimentional walls. Do be sure to tell her if you enjoy yourself, she may be willing to piece your essence back together and let you experience it again."
-Necromicus
Murphys Military Law
#23. Teamwork is essential; it gives the enemy other people to shoot at.
#46. If you can't remember, the Claymore is pointed towards you.
#54. Killing for peace is like screwing for virginity.
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Actually, it does - the content for blue, red and yellow all assumes that everyone is new at level 1, and the missions are written based on that idea.
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Originally Posted by William_Valence
Everyone might start at level 1, but that doesn't mean anything other than where they stand gameplay-wise.
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@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
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And gameplay is an abstraction of your level of power. You're not treated like a big shot because at level 1 you're not. And you don't have the power to back it up... yet.
| Everyone might start at level 1, but that doesn't mean anything other than where they stand gameplay-wise. |
"Men strunt �r strunt och snus �r snus
om ock i gyllne dosor.
Och rosor i ett sprucket krus
�r st�ndigt alltid rosor."
Quite the opposite, redside your broken out of superpowered jail meaning you've had a criminal past.
Blueside your a super called upon to help in a riot senario.
The new tutorials have you using powers before you reach Blue spetrum (spector? cant remember his actual name) meaning while you were caught up in the whole galaxy city thing, you're past is not determined except by you.
Your level is just a number, you can explain it however you want. Same thing with health and endurance. My tank Floodgates isn't actually super durable, his health is just how much water he currently had keeping him from being hit and defeated. Skillgap is a Martial artist whose health is a representation of where he stands in a fight not how much he's been hurt. People shoot him, he deflects but his tactical stance in the fight is lowered I.E. his health goes down and he's closer to being beat.
All these gameplay features level/health/endurance are explainable however the player wishes for their character. Do it however you want, that doesn't mean I have to do it your way too.
RE: Golden Girl
Murphys Military Law
#23. Teamwork is essential; it gives the enemy other people to shoot at.
#46. If you can't remember, the Claymore is pointed towards you.
#54. Killing for peace is like screwing for virginity.
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Stupid, cowardly, bubbling idiot is not a descriptor for any of my characters. And while, at level 1, Necromicus wouldn't use the power needed to defeat Recluse. That doesn't mean he wouldn't laugh after having his Zombie chuck up all over Recluse's shoes. |
Originally Posted by Arilou
And gameplay is an abstraction of your level of power. You're not treated like a big shot because at level 1 you're not. And you don't have the power to back it up... yet.
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They don't have to treat my characters like big shots, but that doesn't mean my characters won't still act like they are.
Murphys Military Law
#23. Teamwork is essential; it gives the enemy other people to shoot at.
#46. If you can't remember, the Claymore is pointed towards you.
#54. Killing for peace is like screwing for virginity.
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And that's just an excuse for poor writing. There's nothing preventing a writer from writing a level 1 arc that has the player feeling good about himself at the end and that demonstrates the player villain as being somehow special and better than the others of his rank.|
Originally Posted by Arilou
^Except that at this point you are, at most, level 10. You're a nobody.
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They didn't do that. Consciously. Not because they couldn't, not because it doesn't make sense, but because they chose to. And I don't agree with that choice, on account of "my villain is a stooge" being pretty much the running complaint of villain-side complaint since 2005.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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I personally felt pretty good after comprehensibly outwitting and defeating Graves' little goons, which of course was the plan all along *shrugs*.
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Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
And that's just an excuse for poor writing. There's nothing preventing a writer from writing a level 1 arc that has the player feeling good about himself at the end and that demonstrates the player villain as being somehow special and better than the others of his rank.
They didn't do that. Consciously. Not because they couldn't, not because it doesn't make sense, but because they chose to. And I don't agree with that choice, on account of "my villain is a stooge" being pretty much the running complaint of villain-side complaint since 2005. |
"Men strunt �r strunt och snus �r snus
om ock i gyllne dosor.
Och rosor i ett sprucket krus
�r st�ndigt alltid rosor."
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Character concept is subordinate to game rules. Characters in City start as beginners. That happens to not matter in this particular case, but (e.g.) I'd laugh in the face of anyone who tried to RP their level 10 character as anything other than a slightly-experienced rookie.
| Everyone might start at level 1, but that doesn't mean anything other than where they stand gameplay-wise. |
Current Blog Post: "Why I am an Atheist..."
"And I say now these kittens, they do not get trained/As we did in the days when Victoria reigned!" -- T. S. Eliot, "Gus, the Theatre Cat"
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Good thing I'm not that worried about your opinion when it comes to what makes a good/viable story. |
Originally Posted by Venture
Character concept is subordinate to game rules. Characters in City start as beginners. That happens to not matter in this particular case, but (e.g.) I'd laugh in the face of anyone who tried to RP their level 10 character as anything other than a slightly-experienced rookie.
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Level represents current power. Does a level 50 with the "Saved the world" badge become an inexperienced rookie if they Exemp down to do a Synapse, or helping a lower level character with a mission? How about a level 10 being SSKed up to 49? Are they all of a sudden Top tier experienced crime fighters, ignoring the fact that they lose it all the moment they aren't with their mentor anymore?
Security level is a what, specifically what your current power level is. It isn't, however, a why. Explain security levels however you want. Some of my heroes explain it as the ammount of force they're authorized to use against a specific threat. Being given more authority as they gain reputation with officials. Others explain it as the more bland evolution of power as they use abilities and practice. Necromicus' explination is, that he's performing tests on himself and others that require him to limit how much power he uses at a given time. And as I said before, Nagoh Shan's level represents how much equipment he's taken, how many connections he's made, and how much he's integrated himself into Arachnos. Not how experienced he is.
Murphys Military Law
#23. Teamwork is essential; it gives the enemy other people to shoot at.
#46. If you can't remember, the Claymore is pointed towards you.
#54. Killing for peace is like screwing for virginity.
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Nice, that's not how the game explains it though.
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Originally Posted by William_Valence
Good thing I'm not that worried about your opinion when it comes to what makes a good/viable story.
Level represents current power. Does a level 50 with the "Saved the world" badge become an inexperienced rookie if they Exemp down to do a Synapse, or helping a lower level character with a mission? How about a level 10 being SSKed up to 49? Are they all of a sudden Top tier experienced crime fighters, ignoring the fact that they lose it all the moment they aren't with their mentor anymore? Security level is a what, specifically what your current power level is. It isn't, however, a why. Explain security levels however you want. Some of my heroes explain it as the ammount of force they're authorized to use against a specific threat. Being given more authority as they gain reputation with officials. Others explain it as the more bland evolution of power as they use abilities and practice. Necromicus' explination is, that he's performing tests on himself and others that require him to limit how much power he uses at a given time. And as I said before, Nagoh Shan's level represents how much equipment he's taken, how many connections he's made, and how much he's integrated himself into Arachnos. Not how experienced he is. |
"Men strunt �r strunt och snus �r snus
om ock i gyllne dosor.
Och rosor i ett sprucket krus
�r st�ndigt alltid rosor."
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Your right, but then again the games explanation of: |
Originally Posted by Arilou
Nice, that's not how the game explains it though.
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---OK player, your character will store all accumulated experience. Once your current experience point value breaks a predetermined threashold, you can go to a trainer. A trainer is a special NPC that will generate the power selection UI for or the Enhancement placement UI depending on which level you are. Oh, and the rules are you get one power every other level to 35 then one every three levels except from 47 to 49. Enhancement slots are two per level until level 29 and three per level after that. Level 50 is the cap and you will no longer gain experience, but you will gain double Inf. If you die you will get debt, but only after level 10. Debt takes half of your experience gain to pay off. Oh, and if you log off you get patrol xp which will pay off debt or increase your experience gain.---
Doesn't really work for any of my characters backstories. Curses devs and your Shoehorning ways /e shakes fist!
Murphys Military Law
#23. Teamwork is essential; it gives the enemy other people to shoot at.
#46. If you can't remember, the Claymore is pointed towards you.
#54. Killing for peace is like screwing for virginity.
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I think that depends on how you define "rookie," though. If we're talking strictly power and skill, then sure, I'll buy that. We're supposed to be weak at the start. If you're talking in terms of personal intelligence, though, I don't agree. Not everyone starts a hero's career at 18, so not everyone is "young and inexperienced." Inexperienced in throwing fire out of his hands though he may be, Black Lung still spent 30 years busting his back in coal mines around the world, living in shanty towns and sleeping with one eye open before he dug up that magic rock which gave him super powers. Sure, he's a rookie villain in that he's still trying to keep from setting his own eyebrows on fire, but he's no gullible young fool. You don't lose your last penny and the last of your real teeth getting scammed and not learn a thing or two.|
Originally Posted by Venture
Character concept is subordinate to game rules. Characters in City start as beginners. That happens to not matter in this particular case, but (e.g.) I'd laugh in the face of anyone who tried to RP their level 10 character as anything other than a slightly-experienced rookie.
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And, yes, I did make "Black Lung" up on the spot just to serve as an example. I don't actually have such a character.
My point is that while a game can treat our characters as rookie SUPERS, it shouldn't really treat them as rookie VILLAINS. I mean, look at established canon - Johnny Sonata was, what? 30 by the time he made his deal with the devil? The Magic Man was how old when he got the Magic Watch? Just because our villains may have only recently gained their powers doesn't mean they didn't have a life of crime beforehand. In fact, the old Breakout tutorial pretty much TOLD us we had a life of crime before the game started because we have to have done SOMETHING to end up in the Zig.
And that doesn't account for villains who were actually incredibly powerful in the past, but who subsequently lost their powers. Both the Transmuter and Kara the Scorpion come to mind just off the top of my head.Hell, you know better than I do what sealed evil in a can is, and how one key aspect of these stories is that said evil was incredibly powerful when it was sealed, but how it now takes time before it returns to its full power. That in itself is a great plot to make a villain after - he used to have godlike powers, but now he has no powers at all. But give him time, it'll come back to him.
All of this is to say that while I completely get being beaten by clearly superior foes when I'm level 10, I don't really feel it's as justified to be painted as a stooge just because I'm level 10. For instance, raiding Anti-Matter's lab in Praetoria as level 15 character and having Anti-Matter show up as a level 40 AV to essentially one-shot you is precisely what I would have expected to happen. He's a frikkin' super villain! But having my villain walk up to someone and yell "I have a mental time bomb!" isn't even remotely the same thing.
A "rookie" villain can be week, that much I get, and that much has never been my complaint. That doesn't mean he's stupid, is all I'm saying.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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The point is that whatever you did it's no longer relevant to anyone in the know, they either don't know or don't care. As far as the rest of the world is concerned you are a rookie.
| My point is that while a game can treat our characters as rookie SUPERS, it shouldn't really treat them as rookie VILLAINS |
"Men strunt �r strunt och snus �r snus
om ock i gyllne dosor.
Och rosor i ett sprucket krus
�r st�ndigt alltid rosor."
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Your whole argument is stupid.|
Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
Nor can I yours. You read barely anything I wrote let alone anything anyone else wrote and you chose to insult me instead. Rather than demean myself repeating what I've already said in some vein attempt at discussion with you when that's clearly not why you came here, busy as you are with character assassination, I'll merely state the following:
The Dr. Graves arc should assume so much about my villain when it has no way of knowing what I'll write, and it should offer more choice in its dialogue trees. |
You're asserting that this pre-written mission script MUST read your mind and be prepared for anything you can throw at it before you start playing.
Go roll some dice, book jockey. Let the DM handle your mary sue, so we don't have to.
It is impossible for a digital game to predict the future and to allow for one possibility for every single potential kind of player. You are not whining about a mission story arc. YOU ARE WHINING ABOUT REALITY.
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Originally Posted by Monkey_King
Just finished the first two arcs for Dr. Graves and...
Good gravy my villain is an idiot. A stupefying, mouth-breathing idiot. Never mind the whole little fish in a big pond bit, it's unbelievable that he'll ever be a scheming mastermind on the same level as Doctor Doom when he's dumber than a bag of hammers. Hurr durr, Dean Yu isn't jerking me around at all, I'll go shoot the Luddites and the obviously fake mind bomb will be disarmed!... |
I suppose I could forgive you for not realizing this, since -of course- Dean Yu may have had some fun with your brain while he was fixing things.
you could have it all
My empire of dirt
I will let you down
I will make you <3
I have a character who... thinks a little differently (he's mad).
He understands Dillo.
The text says he doesn't, I say he does.
I ignore the text and just say "Nah, Havelock doesn't say that, he knows exactly what you *hoorb* mean."
Vaguely irritating to have to do that, but, it doesn't affect me that much.
[url=http://vox-doom.deviantart.com]Take A Gander At This.[/url]
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There's a vast difference between "allowing for every single kind of player" and "allowing for more than one kind of player". The arc has decided that you are stupid, arrogant, and jerkish. |
Originally Posted by Party_Kake
It is impossible for a digital game to predict the future and to allow for one possibility for every single potential kind of player. You are not whining about a mission story arc. YOU ARE WHINING ABOUT REALITY.
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Your character is polite? No you aren't. You're a jerk who'll twist an arm because you want your ego stroked.
Your character is a genius? No you aren't. You're going to blindly follow whatever someone says, no matter how obviously false it is. (Dean Yu never actually does anything to your brain. All he does is translate a Latin phrase.)
It might as well have decided that your character is actually a Gravity/Force Field Controller. It doesn't matter what archetype or powersets you picked, this arc was written for Grav/FFs and nobody else.
We'll always have Paragon.
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If a story is going to provide a voice for the character, it should use the Branching Dialogue tech available and provide options for different types of responses. Or they should stick to accept/Go do whatever contact said type responses.|
Originally Posted by Party_Kake
Your whole argument is stupid.
You're asserting that this pre-written mission script MUST read your mind and be prepared for anything you can throw at it before you start playing. Go roll some dice, book jockey. Let the DM handle your mary sue, so we don't have to. It is impossible for a digital game to predict the future and to allow for one possibility for every single potential kind of player. You are not whining about a mission story arc. YOU ARE WHINING ABOUT REALITY. |
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Originally Posted by Party_Kake
Your character at this point in time has had a time bomb of some sort forcibly inserted into your cranium, and you expect your character's brain not to be affected in any adverse way whatsoever?
I suppose I could forgive you for not realizing this, since -of course- Dean Yu may have had some fun with your brain while he was fixing things. |
The secret password is "Hater's gotta hate"? It's insulting, who's stupid enough to fall for that?
Oh...right
Murphys Military Law
#23. Teamwork is essential; it gives the enemy other people to shoot at.
#46. If you can't remember, the Claymore is pointed towards you.
#54. Killing for peace is like screwing for virginity.
34 heroes,
20 villains, Victory, Justice, Infinity, Virtue, Triumph, Exalted -- some more active than others