Dr. Graves hurts my brain...
By
Arcanaville,
Posted on: 2011-09-16 07:52 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
I've been playing through the arc and I'm in the second one now. Mental Time Bomb, indeed. However, I'm seeing it slight different than most. The first arc was just a one-upmanship contest where my character, who has practiced this particular discipline a lot, blows up a Longbow base as a finale. Nothing too bad about this arc, and having Scirocco turn up at the end, quite literally behind you is a surprise. And yeah, it's an offer you can't refuse, because a "Kill me and you'll need to find another mole" ultimatum will likely result in him doing just that. Don't wager your life against supervillains, it's always a bad plan. Especially those that command a fifth of the army of the nation you're in.
However, being "hired" as Scirocco's mole also gives an out for a lot of the stupidity of your character in the next arc. I have to play along, perhaps going a little over the top, in order for them not to suspect that I'm playing for Arachnos in their game. So Dollface says she planted a mental time bomb. Yeah, right. But the audience demands acting, so... "A mental time bomb?! Oh dear! Whatever will I do?" All the while laughing at them while out of earshot.
It probably helps that my character is a hired blade and/or ninja. So for Scirocco to hire her to play along with the stupidity, well, any spy worth her salt can play dumb. So... "D'uuh, I are idiot who falls for painfully obvious trap!" I hope that the end will let me deliver a nice piece of intel to Scirocco. Spiders pay good money for their jobs, after all, so getting in on Scirocco's good side, at least temporarily is a good thing for business.
Aegis Rose, Forcefield/Energy Defender - Freedom
"Bubble up for safety!"
Dollface makes you believe their is a mental time bomb in your head. She has the the Powers of Super Persuasion. It's similiar to the level 40 blueside arc where Vanessa Devore forces you to stand still and not attack while you and her parlay.
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On the hero side, there is the in-game canon prerequisite that you register as a metahuman and abide by the laws of Paragon City. On the villain side, there was the in-game canon prerequisite that you accept Arachnos help to break out of prison. Its a little different now, in that you now accept that Arachnos is watching over your shoulder more than normal.|
Originally Posted by William_Valence
There are no conditions for new characters. Well, that's not true. The conditions for new characters are selecting origin, AT, primary powerset and first power, secondary powerset and power, costume, Power customization, and name.
There is no requirement for your character to be dumb, there is no requirement for this to be your character's first rodeo, and there is no requirement that you have to tremble whenever Recluse walks by. You can play it however you wan't but your way isn't the only way, and other ways of playing are Viable as well. One of the first things I do when I get to Sharkhead, is Leeroy the first strike I see. And like I said before. It all boils down to the fact that while not everyone will treat my characters like big shots, my characters would still act like they're big shots. Except for in graves, then my characters act like cowardly, stupid henchmen. |
And its interesting you say you can play the game however you want but are forced to act like cowardly stupid henchmen in Graves. I did not picture myself as a cowardly stupid henchman in Graves so that was not mandatory.
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Following the laws is a prerequisite of being a hero not a character requirement that chooses what your character is, for you.|
Originally Posted by Arcanaville
On the hero side, there is the in-game canon prerequisite that you register as a metahuman and abide by the laws of Paragon City. On the villain side, there was the in-game canon prerequisite that you accept Arachnos help to break out of prison. Its a little different now, in that you now accept that Arachnos is watching over your shoulder more than normal.
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As for Villain side, there's always been the ability to write off Arachnos as some big orginization that doesn't really matter, and just happens to give you work through faceless mooks every so often. However, that becomes fairly impossible once the great sand emo pops in and threaten's you for your compliance.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
And its interesting you say you can play the game however you want but are forced to act like cowardly stupid henchmen in Graves. I did not picture myself as a cowardly stupid henchman in Graves so that was not mandatory.
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Cowardly
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Hurry! My head could blow at any moment! Whew! Thanks! I might actually live another day! |
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Of course, you can always decline. If you do, I believe your chances of escaping from this base alive should drop... considerably. -I... see. Alright, Scirocco. I'm in. |
Well, every interaction involving Dollface.
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| Hey, pal. I'm older than I look, ok? Probably older than you, from the looks of it. |
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He is so silly, and a very nice man. And he listens really well, too. Really well. |
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Henchmen
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Arachnos appreciates your cooperation, Now go back to your... coordinater... and instruct him to look at the smoke on the horizon. Word will spread that you were solely responsible for this. You will be contacted in the future with further instructions. And remember, Character... I am personally watching you. I'll keep that in mind... |
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| You faced each of Omnicore's creations and defeated them all. All except for her final creations, that is. Even still... you won, and in the end that's all that matters. |
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| You survived Zephyr's foolish plan of giving his newly acquired minions significant potions of his power... with the help of Arachnos, of course. |
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Originally Posted by warden_del_dios
Dollface makes you believe their is a mental time bomb in your head. She has the the Powers of Super Persuasion. It's similiar to the level 40 blueside arc where Vanessa Devore forces you to stand still and not attack while you and her parlay.
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Murphys Military Law
#23. Teamwork is essential; it gives the enemy other people to shoot at.
#46. If you can't remember, the Claymore is pointed towards you.
#54. Killing for peace is like screwing for virginity.
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Obeying the law is more or less a prerequisite for being a hero, not a requirement for hero-side. If you don't want to obey the law, you become a vigilante or an outright villain. Complaining you can't be a hero AND a wanton lawbreaker is like complaining you can't be a Defender AND do amazing melee damage. If you want to do amazing melee damage, play a class that does this. If you want to disrespect the law, play a Vigilante or a Villain, or a rogue if you're feeling creative.|
Originally Posted by Arcanaville
On the hero side, there is the in-game canon prerequisite that you register as a metahuman and abide by the laws of Paragon City. On the villain side, there was the in-game canon prerequisite that you accept Arachnos help to break out of prison. Its a little different now, in that you now accept that Arachnos is watching over your shoulder more than normal.
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Being a super-villain's stooge is not a prerequisite for being a villain in the same way that respecting the law is for being a hero. In fact, a great many concepts exist in fiction already for whom the defining feature is that they don't serve anyone. You mentioned them yourself. And these are villains who easily fall square in the field of villainy and not in any of the other alignments.
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I honestly don't get why villains must always be seen controlled by someone else, and why the game is seen as impossible to function unless there is "a bigger fish." It's a question of writing and storytelling, and I can say this for a fact: There are better ways to explain a city of villains (if you really had to) than Arachnos.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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"I go my own way, I make my own path, I have complete freedom!"
You are correct that the game currently does not support this for villains. IMO, it has never supported this. It is uncertain whether it can support this, as it's an almost completely different style of MMO design ("sandbox" vs. "theme park", if one uses those terms).
I say again, it's always like this (all the way back to the design phase, where you would start out as a minion in one of a few existing villain groups, plus Arachnos). I'm not seeing any new complaints, really. Why did you expect different now?
My characters at Virtueverse
Faces of the City
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D-Mac and Leonard.|
Originally Posted by Megajoule
"I go my own way, I make my own path, I have complete freedom!"
You are correct that the game currently does not support this for villains. IMO, it has never supported this. It is uncertain whether it can support this, as it's an almost completely different style of MMO design ("sandbox" vs. "theme park", if one uses those terms). I say again, it's always like this (all the way back to the design phase, where you would start out as a minion in one of a few existing villain groups, plus Arachnos). I'm not seeing any new complaints, really. Why did you expect different now? |
Really, there is not much else to add.
Those two arcs are as close to perfect as possible. Mortimer Kal isn't bad, nor is...oh, whatsis name. The Rogue Legacy Chain member.
How is it possible to go from writing gems like them to re-vomited turd like Graves? Really?
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Originally Posted by Zwillinger
GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.
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Originally Posted by Captain_Photon
NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.
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Vincent Ross.
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Originally Posted by Techbot Alpha
nor is...oh, whatsis name. The Rogue Legacy Chain member.
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The Abrams is one of the most effective war machines on the planet. - R. Lee Ermy.
Q: How do you wreck an Abrams?
A: You crash into another one.
D-Mac, Leonard, and any of the villain arcs by Twoflower.
They are capable of not assuming your motivations or loyalties beyond a few basics, involving meaningful moral options, being fun, featuring classic villain plots, not being insulting, suggesting a sense of self determination despite being simple stories, etc.
A game is not supposed to be some kind of... place where people enjoy themselves!
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I didn't find these arcs to be any different, in any meaningful way, from any other arcs in the game.
| They are capable of not assuming your motivations or loyalties beyond a few basics, involving meaningful moral options, being fun, featuring classic villain plots, not being insulting, suggesting a sense of self determination despite being simple stories, etc. |
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Originally Posted by Venture
I didn't find these arcs to be any different, in any meaningful way, from any other arcs in the game.
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A lot of the old stuff is better than Graves arc from an RP view of the MMORPG.
The machine can take DNA from a robot?
Dollface can do her thing to a ghost? A robot? A golem? A sentient forum post?
Brawling Cactus from a distant planet.
I happen to know Twoflower, and I can state with some authority that his arcs are written with the specific intent to address some of the limitations of official content in this area (among other goals). Even so, they can't cover every possibility. Also, the player doesn't really have any more freedom of choice than the official arcs; it's just better hidden, with the character addressed as a superior rather than a lackey and the initial assumption that the character has chosen to undertake this villainous plan, rather than having it foist upon them.
I'm not familiar with the other two (contacts? authors?) that you mentioned.
My characters at Virtueverse
Faces of the City
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Then you weren't looking hard enough, or you're being intentionally obtuse. Then again, I know you have a history of discounting writing that suggests you're working for yourself when the system still requires contacts, so that's to be expected.|
Originally Posted by Venture
I didn't find these arcs to be any different, in any meaningful way, from any other arcs in the game.
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For those of us who CAN look past the basic game mechanics and stick to just the story the game tells, however, an arc which presents the actions as MY idea and MY plan and MY initiative, even if what that idea and plan and initiative is is still predetermined, are still a HELL of a lot better than missions which present me following someone else's orders.
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Originally Posted by Megajoule
I happen to know Twoflower, and I can state with some authority that his arcs are written with the specific intent to address some of the limitations of official content in this area (among other goals). Even so, they can't cover every possibility. Also, the player doesn't really have any more freedom of choice than the official arcs; it's just better hidden, with the character addressed as a superior rather than a lackey and the initial assumption that the character has chosen to undertake this villainous plan, rather than having it foist upon them.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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They might not cover every possibility, but they DON'T, and here's the important part, FORCE you into a very narrow corridor of possibility like Graves does. In fact, they specifically omit mentioning certain things, which in turn let YOU, the player, fill in all the blanks you want without incident.|
Originally Posted by Megajoule
I happen to know Twoflower, and I can state with some authority that his arcs are written with the specific intent to address some of the limitations of official content in this area (among other goals). Even so, they can't cover every possibility. Also, the player doesn't really have any more freedom of choice than the official arcs; it's just better hidden, with the character addressed as a superior rather than a lackey and the initial assumption that the character has chosen to undertake this villainous plan, rather than having it foist upon them.
I'm not familiar with the other two (contacts? authors?) that you mentioned. |
For example, how the hell could a Robot use a cloning lab? It never says you can't, it never forces you to give DNA samples, so by courtesy of omission you can safely assume that you simply tweak the cloning lab to instead manufacture copied chassis that are programmed as you, the Boss, see fit.
Sometimes omission is safer and more freedom-giving than inclusion. D-Mac and crew manage that balance for the better. Graves does not.
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Originally Posted by Zwillinger
GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.
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Originally Posted by Captain_Photon
NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.
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Something Arcanaville mentioned earlier is niggling at me.
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In particular, it's the bit about in-game canon prerequisites and having to be broken out of jail by Arachnos.| On the hero side, there is the in-game canon prerequisite that you register as a metahuman and abide by the laws of Paragon City. On the villain side, there was the in-game canon prerequisite that you accept Arachnos help to break out of prison. Its a little different now, in that you now accept that Arachnos is watching over your shoulder more than normal. |
Am I the only one who thinks a world where every single player character villain has been liberated from the Zig by Arachnos makes for a rather stale game world?
Maybe it's just the roleplayer in me talking, but not all of my Villains were broken out of the Zig, or were in the Zig to begin with, or were in Galaxy City when the meteors fell.
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Especially as the tutorials are more or less optional. While it's not quite on the level of the Origin of Powers arc, which I more or less ignore IC, there is precedent. How many roleplayers have heroes who got their powers before the whole Statesman/Well business, or have magic that isn't related to Mu or Atlantis?|
Originally Posted by Zortel
Something Arcanaville mentioned earlier is niggling at me.
In particular, it's the bit about in-game canon prerequisites and having to be broken out of jail by Arachnos. Am I the only one who thinks a world where every single player character villain has been liberated from the Zig by Arachnos makes for a rather stale game world? Maybe it's just the roleplayer in me talking, but not all of my Villains were broken out of the Zig, or were in the Zig to begin with, or were in Galaxy City when the meteors fell. |
How many different versions of kheldians are there out there?
Yes, two or three of my new heroes came through the Galaxy incident, but thats because it's a convenient plot point. I can't think of any of my villains that were Zig escapees.
Do not go gentle into that good night.
Rage, rage against the dying of the light.
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Luckily, we can skip the tutorials, so the villain-side villains being broken out of the zig was never a big problem. There's a total of one mention of it in the game when you first speak with Kalinda, telling you she's responsible for why you're not dining on Zig food right now, but that's it. There are a few paper missions that allude to you having spent time with the mission boss in question, but because paper missions opted to use jargon like "you didn't like him in the can," it's a bit more open to interpretation. I'm not sure how pervasive the Galaxy City tutorial is, but I haven't seen it mentioned much at all, so presumably skipping it frees you from that canon requirement.|
Originally Posted by Zortel
Am I the only one who thinks a world where every single player character villain has been liberated from the Zig by Arachnos makes for a rather stale game world? Maybe it's just the roleplayer in me talking, but not all of my Villains were broken out of the Zig, or were in the Zig to begin with, or were in Galaxy City when the meteors fell.
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And I agree with you. A world where all player villains were freed from the Zig is about as goofy as a world where all heroes and villains get their powers from "the Well of the Furies," even if their super powers are hard work or a fast wit. We've bred one bit of nonsense out of the game with the Galaxy City tutorial, maybe by the end of the Incarnate storyline we'll be able to breed the other out, as well, perhaps by finding out Sister Psyche was wrong all along.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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But it's not my idea, my plan or my initiative and no amount of spin will make it so. Which is just part of the litany of sins committed by all four "clone" arcs.| For those of us who CAN look past the basic game mechanics and stick to just the story the game tells, however, an arc which presents the actions as MY idea and MY plan and MY initiative |
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| Am I the only one who thinks a world where every single player character villain has been liberated from the Zig by Arachnos makes for a rather stale game world? |
Current Blog Post: "Why I am an Atheist..."
"And I say now these kittens, they do not get trained/As we did in the days when Victoria reigned!" -- T. S. Eliot, "Gus, the Theatre Cat"
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Maybe not yours, but I'd FAR prefer to have that be mine if it meant the story treated me like the protagonist, rather than like a supporting character. If the story is written well enough to sell the opportunity, then I can bend a little and accept it, so long as it's written as if it were MY idea all along. If my character wouldn't really have such an idea, no harm done - I pick another contact in whose story I can have a more appropriate idea.|
Originally Posted by Venture
But it's not my idea, my plan or my initiative and no amount of spin will make it so.
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This is key to me enjoying my villains - when I'm written as working on my own initiative. I can see past the railroading story when I actually like where it's taking me, and for a villain, "towards my own plans" is always a good destination.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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Can anyone name even one MMO where this "Free Willed Character" is present?
Every MMO has you beating up on X, doing Y and rescuing Z regardless of who your character is or what their opinions of the world are.
If there was an MMO out there with enough content to allow me to go through the game without ever breaking my character's personality, something the Developers know nothing about, as well as having played a completely unique career to the person standing next to me then I would absolutely love that game. I just don't think it exists except in the minds of crazy people.
If you use the arcs as the literal representation of what your character has done then you run into the problem of every single character having pretty much the same career as you and if I need to point out why it's ridiculous to then say "But all of that was MY idea so it's fine!" then I might give up here.
Story arcs try to tell a story. They can't tell a personal story crafted to suit you because that's simply not possible. It can be a broad, story that leaves a lot of room to interpretation and personal choice but I find these deathly boring. I prefer a focused story with detail in it because I am the kind of person who loves things being explained. Some people prefer the former and more power to them, we have both kinds of arcs.
But asking for arcs that make everyone happy just isn't going to happen. They don't exist.
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No-one's asking for a "personal" story. We're just asking for a story that doesn't have us kowtow to "a bigger fish" all the time. We're asking for a story which paints us as the protagonists, as opposed to some random thug who wandered up to a much more interesting villain who has some dirty work to hand out.|
Originally Posted by Fanservice
Story arcs try to tell a story. They can't tell a personal story crafted to suit you because that's simply not possible.
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It's not a question of game mechanics, it's a question of writing. And every time someone claims "it's not possible," Dean McArthur gains another fan. Evidence exists in plenty for how it IS possible, so claiming it isn't is just an excuse, and not even a very good one.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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Nevertheless, there are conditions on new characters besides "origin, AT, primary powerset and first power, secondary powerset and power, costume, Power customization, and name." What's more, all of those "conditions" are actually essentially free choice, whereas the two I mentioned are not: they are outside of your control.|
Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
Obeying the law is more or less a prerequisite for being a hero, not a requirement for hero-side. If you don't want to obey the law, you become a vigilante or an outright villain. Complaining you can't be a hero AND a wanton lawbreaker is like complaining you can't be a Defender AND do amazing melee damage. If you want to do amazing melee damage, play a class that does this. If you want to disrespect the law, play a Vigilante or a Villain, or a rogue if you're feeling creative.
Being a super-villain's stooge is not a prerequisite for being a villain in the same way that respecting the law is for being a hero. In fact, a great many concepts exist in fiction already for whom the defining feature is that they don't serve anyone. You mentioned them yourself. And these are villains who easily fall square in the field of villainy and not in any of the other alignments. |
And incidentally, obeying the law in general is a prerequisite for being a hero most of the time, but registering metahuman status isn't (unless you think half the Marvel Universe turned villain during Civil War), and the official status of "vigilante" didn't exist until I18. Moreover, you cannot *create* a vigilante which means this basic initial condition is still a limitation on new characters.
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EVE Online.|
Originally Posted by Fanservice
Can anyone name even one MMO where this "Free Willed Character" is present?
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(From what I can tell, most people, given complete freedom in an online game, choose to be utter bastards to each other. YMMV.)
My characters at Virtueverse
Faces of the City
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Vanessa DeVore possesses a centuries-old artifact and her powers are backed up by all her minions. That still doesn't excuse her suddenly getting this ability just because the writer had to ham-hand a conversation with her into the arc on ten minutes' notice, but it's still better than giving something similar to a nobody.|
Originally Posted by warden_de_dios
Dollface makes you believe their is a mental time bomb in your head. She has the the Powers of Super Persuasion. It's similiar to the level 40 blueside arc where Vanessa Devore forces you to stand still and not attack while you and her parlay.
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Besides, something that has always bothered me about giving NPCs "story-based" powers that can't be backed up by mechanics is that PCs will have different levels of resistance that can be backed up by mechanics and are conceptually fitting. Such as psi resistance. This is essentially the psionic equivalent of Reichsmann's "rocks fall, everybody" dies attack.
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As the example went, if I HAVE to agree, then give me a choice to like it, hate it or make fun of it, just off the top of my head.