Dr. Graves hurts my brain...
Okay, now I have to make the companion thread to my "Which story arcs/missions do you find most emotionally engaging?" thread... and this time find out which ones people think just outright SUCK (in terms of writing). Just because I'm sadistically curious to see which ones top the list (and why).
Michelle aka Samuraiko/Dark_Respite |
GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.
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So everytime in this and the TwinShot thread you linked to a Trope as an insult of these arcs, you are now admitting that Not All Tropes Are Bad?
And there was not one point in any of your arcs where I felt like "Oh, this is new and different." This to me means they are cliched and boring and fail their one job of being entertaining. I am willing to re-play them and cite examples of ALL your faults one by one here, though. |
AE is in dire need of the new tech being added to it.
GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.
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Current Badge Hunter: Plot Device (Rad/Thermal/Dark) - 1,268 Xbox Live: Friggin Taser
King of Electricity, Lead Inmate running the Carl and Sons asylum, the "Man" behind the Establishment, Given Honor in Hat Form By Paragon City (Favorite Forum Poster 2006!), Master of Ceremonies of the Fair Use Law podcast
So everytime in this and the TwinShot thread you linked to a Trope as an insult of these arcs, you are now admitting that Not All Tropes Are Bad? |
And there was not one point in any of your arcs where I felt like "Oh, this is new and different." |
I am willing to re-play them and cite examples of ALL your faults one by one here, though. |
Current Blog Post: "Why I am an Atheist..."
"And I say now these kittens, they do not get trained/As we did in the days when Victoria reigned!" -- T. S. Eliot, "Gus, the Theatre Cat"
Which one do you consider your greatest piece of work? I'll do that one first.
Current Badge Hunter: Plot Device (Rad/Thermal/Dark) - 1,268 Xbox Live: Friggin Taser
King of Electricity, Lead Inmate running the Carl and Sons asylum, the "Man" behind the Establishment, Given Honor in Hat Form By Paragon City (Favorite Forum Poster 2006!), Master of Ceremonies of the Fair Use Law podcast
"Splintered Shields". Unfortunately, you can't play it.
"The Christmas We Get" would be second. You can't play that one, either.
Try "Two Households Alike", "Cole In Your Stocking" or "Blowback". "Chains of Blood" is slighting behind those, IMO; it was the first one I wrote and I deliberately played loose and fast with canon. "Why We Fight" is unavailable. "Psychophage" was deliberately written to be bad (and still got good reviews) and to try and kill the player. It will probably be deleted soon to make room for another arc. (No, I'm not paying for more slots until the filter gets fixed, at least; that would be beyond stupid.)
Current Blog Post: "Why I am an Atheist..."
"And I say now these kittens, they do not get trained/As we did in the days when Victoria reigned!" -- T. S. Eliot, "Gus, the Theatre Cat"
Okay, I'm going to go play Blowback right now.
And no, I will be posting my thoughts and opinions on it in this thread. It's not "derailing" the topic anymore than anything else has. You and Sam have already dissected every little nit that could be picked about Dr. Graves arcs, so it's time to jumpstart the thread anyways with a swift change in direction.
Current Badge Hunter: Plot Device (Rad/Thermal/Dark) - 1,268 Xbox Live: Friggin Taser
King of Electricity, Lead Inmate running the Carl and Sons asylum, the "Man" behind the Establishment, Given Honor in Hat Form By Paragon City (Favorite Forum Poster 2006!), Master of Ceremonies of the Fair Use Law podcast
And I'm pre-emptively calling shenanigans on you if you respond to any of my criticisms with "Well my unplayable arcs are better!1111"
Current Badge Hunter: Plot Device (Rad/Thermal/Dark) - 1,268 Xbox Live: Friggin Taser
King of Electricity, Lead Inmate running the Carl and Sons asylum, the "Man" behind the Establishment, Given Honor in Hat Form By Paragon City (Favorite Forum Poster 2006!), Master of Ceremonies of the Fair Use Law podcast
Right off the bat I have an issue with the first text from Crimson, the contact for this arc.
I'm playing as a level 50 incarnated rad/thermal corruptor villain, yet Crimson talks to me like he knows me and we have worked together before. We have not. In fact, the last time I met Crimson, it was me blasting his face off in a Recluse Strike Force. This arc should be labeled hero alignment only.
Current Badge Hunter: Plot Device (Rad/Thermal/Dark) - 1,268 Xbox Live: Friggin Taser
King of Electricity, Lead Inmate running the Carl and Sons asylum, the "Man" behind the Establishment, Given Honor in Hat Form By Paragon City (Favorite Forum Poster 2006!), Master of Ceremonies of the Fair Use Law podcast
From this point on, this post alone with be for my critiques, I'll just keep editing it as I go along.
Done with the first mission. The main issues almost every AE arc has are all present. The author has implanted his own creation into an established villain group, effectively finding a way to Mary Sue his own creations for the Malta. The mission itself is not interest. The new villain group are full of Antimatter clones that have the old stand by powers (elec blast/kin? Mixing the most boring part of the Cabal with the most broken part of Tsoo?). And the mission objectives are full of syntax errors. I was told at one point that I had "3 equipment to confiscate."
Edit: And more sloppy syntax errors. "[NPC] Tactical Operative: So, what do you think of the new TItans?"
The first mission could have been interchangeable with any malta themed newspaper mission in the game. I had absolutely no desire to fight the new Malta, so I ended up simply ghosting the objectives. There was no twist or any kind of storytelling to drive me to fight these new "TItans."
Any interaction the character has with Crimson seems to be predicated entirely on the player knowing Crimson's entire backstory. Seems like sloppy characterization in lieu of just making an original character to used an established contact and just reference things that happen in other arcs.
And here's cliched Superhero Story #1, as perfected by Chris Claremont: the villains have brainwashed heroes to fight for them. I hope you liked it all 500 times Chris did it, because there's absolutely nothing new done with this plot device here.
Second mission complete. Standard Steel Canyon outdoor map. No syntax or spelling errors that I caught on first glance, but the story railroads you into aligning yourself with Vanguard soldiers, who Crimson calls in without your consent to fight along with you. If I were a character who found Vanguard as being a bit Fascist and Xenophobic, I'd be pretty pissed that I was forced to cohort with them.
"Indigo has established that the three businesses targetted by the Rikti were definitely giving Malta trouble in their own ways. That's not really important now, though." Oh thanks, Contact. I love being told that the information I found in the last mission isn't important now.
So next mission in the chain is to rescue the brainwashed hero I fought in the last mission. Here is all the characterization I've gotten for her so far: she was brainwashed by Malta. Now she's not. And she was somehow caught by Malta in Oklahoma City? Wow, the world must be pretty horrible since most of the heroes are centered in Rhode Island yet Malta is kidnapping random strays in other states. This hero isn't a character. It's barely a husk of a character. You can't even click on her for any more information or backstory about her. It just tells you she's not brainwashed anymore. Really? I had no idea. And the fact that she's named "Bluehawk Avenger" just completes the overall generic feel of her.
Sample of the stirring dialogue of this arc: "[NPC] Ms. Werner: ohgodohgodohgod!" I know it's not Venture's fault, but this was said by a male NPC. So at least we have some unintentional comedy.
By saving Bluehawk I got a clue entitled "Bluehawk's Story." Maybe this is a chance to provide more characterization and backstory as to why we should care about who she is? Nope. It's a confusing, rambling story about Malta that involves the author abusing the "Malta Names = Numbers" convention. "2-0...the Enigma Silver cell leader...had 6-3 contact the Rikti and set it all up." So I'm facing off against a power so evil it's character is named with random numbers.
And now we've falling back on memes instead of actual storytelling or character dialogue: "6-3 cut her loose?!? That doesn't make sense. Malta never lets their pet supers go...unless it's some kind of trick...nah, this ain't a Nemesis plot."
More unintentional (intentional?) Mary Sue-ing as I zone into the next mission to find the original flavor Malta fighting off against the new Extra Crispy custom version. But since the created characters are so much more awesome (and have better powers) that means I essentially watch the old Malta get slaughtered and the new Mary Sue-Malta stand around over their dead bodies.
What not to do with small tech maps: backlog them with glowie objectives. I just had 3 glowies in one room literally right next to each other. Not that it matters, since 3 of them are body bags, so the writer has used the cheap "dead heroes = important story!" short cut.
And both of the numbered Matla I mentioned earlier were Zeus Titans. Why the hell are Malta letting robots choose to keep hostages, kill them, or let them go?
"This is the body of Alice Kaufmann, one of the supers you were sent to extract. She was a low-grade telepath." Well then. I guess I better be motivated to fight in her honor then because I now know so much more about who she was and why Malta killed her.
As I zone out: "You found a scathing email from Enigma Silver 2-0, which you have time to read after the shooting stops." Giant combat robots have time to write scathing emails? And three superpowered individuals were just killed, but thankfully I have enough time to read an angry missive from a robot!
From the giant robot's e-mail: "You just demoted yourself to...more collateral damage." You can almost hear Steven Seagal say this in a barely awake monotone, can't you?
So now 6-3 is out to get 2-0 and is on a rampage to get him... but I just defeated him. How is the giant robot not in the Zig? Did I let him go out of the kindness of my heart over the dead bodies of super powered individuals I never had a chance to care about? Why would I let murderous giant robots free? Don't look for an explanation, because it's just more in-game memes and continuity jokes in lieu of actually telling a story: "Enigma Silver 6-3 has been trying to stay on the move, but his old boss 2-0 caught up with his forces in Boomtown. They're just never going to get that place rebuilt at this rate."
"Ja'Dar has suited up to bust heads and chew gum...and he didn't bring any gum." Then why would he suit up to chew gum in the first place? If you are going to steal classic Roddy Piper lines, at least use them right.
Hey, remember the very last mission? Where 6-3 and 2-0 were both Zeus Titans that talked like Zeus Titans do in the already established canon of the game? Well now they are the new Mary Sue-brand Titans and an EB-level Gunslinger in this mission and suddenly are EBs instead of bosses. No explanation giving for their transformation in their bios. And their speech patterns are those of regular humans. No reason given again. Lazy storytelling.
Current Badge Hunter: Plot Device (Rad/Thermal/Dark) - 1,268 Xbox Live: Friggin Taser
King of Electricity, Lead Inmate running the Carl and Sons asylum, the "Man" behind the Establishment, Given Honor in Hat Form By Paragon City (Favorite Forum Poster 2006!), Master of Ceremonies of the Fair Use Law podcast
And I finished the arc by defeating the three bosses I defeated in the other missions already.
Nothing changed. I had no motivation to stop one part of Malta from fighting itself. Characters I never met were killed off-camera for no apparent reason. Characterization seemed to change mission to mission, even so far as the characters being completely different models. What little characterization there was was generic Malta talk you can see in any of the already existing Malta paper missions. The Rikti involvement had no pay off at all.
If this is really "better than Dr. Graves' arc" to you, I don't know what to say. People in glass houses shouldn't throw stones, especially when they are pretending to be an emperor who has no clothes, I guess.
Current Badge Hunter: Plot Device (Rad/Thermal/Dark) - 1,268 Xbox Live: Friggin Taser
King of Electricity, Lead Inmate running the Carl and Sons asylum, the "Man" behind the Establishment, Given Honor in Hat Form By Paragon City (Favorite Forum Poster 2006!), Master of Ceremonies of the Fair Use Law podcast
"You just demoted yourself to...more collateral damage." You can almost hear Steven Seagal say this in a barely awake monotone, can't you?
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After reading your post (and giving the arc a shot myself) I'm going to say that Venture's writing, while working within canon, is not about to trump anything the dev's have done aside from Unai Kemen and Dr. Graves.
My guides:Dark Melee/Dark Armor/Soul Mastery, Illusion Control/Kinetics/Primal Forces Mastery, Electric Armor
"Dark Armor is a complete waste as a tanking set."
Hell, even Dante's garbage "Yeah, let's all to go hell" line at the end of DMC2 was better than that.
After reading your post (and giving the arc a shot myself) I'm going to say that Venture's writing, while working within canon, is not about to trump anything the dev's have done aside from Unai Kemen and Dr. Graves. |
But he so can't. Unless he retcons his own post and tries to claim that Blowback is the arc he wrote to be "intentionally bad."
There's no story at all to it. Why would the Rikti need Malta tech to get past the War Walls in Steel when they already do that anytime they invade that zone? Why should we care about a new character we fight, then rescue, then send to jail? Why would that hero be charged with any crimes if she did it while under mind control? Why did I send the hero to jail and she stayed there but me sending any of the villain group bosses there apparently didn't stick? What the hell was my motivation to keep one half of Malta from killing the other half?
There wasn't any. Venture talks a big game, but when he steps up to the plate he swings and he misses.
Current Badge Hunter: Plot Device (Rad/Thermal/Dark) - 1,268 Xbox Live: Friggin Taser
King of Electricity, Lead Inmate running the Carl and Sons asylum, the "Man" behind the Establishment, Given Honor in Hat Form By Paragon City (Favorite Forum Poster 2006!), Master of Ceremonies of the Fair Use Law podcast
I'm now tempted to get Friggin Taser to play my one and only AE arc just to see what he thinks of it...but considering it was made when the AE came out, it's probably borked by now, may have even deleted it (sadface).
Badge Earned: Wing Clipper
A real showstopper!
Dr. Graves didn't get a chance to hurt my brain. This is because I did the hero-side arcs first, and after realizing that whoever wrote them thought that anything Flambeaux had to say might actually interest someone, I haven't bothered to read a single sentence of those endless conversations in any of the tutorial arcs. As far as I'm concerned, they all say "click here for badge."
That said, I agree with Sam and Venture and everybody else who actually thinks people should hold themselves and their work up to a standard, even if it's "just" a video game.
Friggin' Taser, writing snarky reviews "to prove a point" just makes you look like you're writing a snarky review to try to prove a point. It doesn't actually prove a point. Especially when the person whose work you're reviewing has a better handle on the relevant canon than you do.
Eva Destruction AR/Fire/Munitions Blaster
Darkfire Avenger DM/SD/Body Scrapper
Arc ID#161629 Freaks, Geeks, and Men in Black
Arc ID#431270 Until the End of the World
Friggin' Taser, writing snarky reviews "to prove a point" just makes you look like you're writing a snarky review to try to prove a point. It doesn't actually prove a point. Especially when the person whose work you're reviewing has a better handle on the relevant canon than you do.
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And snarky review nothing. I wasted an hour playing his arc in earnest. It was bad and he should feel bad. He is the one who said it was better than something someone was paid to write. He was the one who stuck his neck out. If I played the arc and it was actually *gasp* good, I would say so. But it so so isn't.
When someone is on the forum complaining about bad characterization and publishes an arc that features not only the absence of characterization but almost a black hole that sucks characterization away from already established characters, then maybe his views should be held accountable. And when someone throws a fit anytime the tiniest infraction of canon is introduced yet can't even keep continuity in his own 5 mission arc, then the red flag is raised.
Accountability is a two way street, especially when the gauntlet of "Anything I've written is better than this arc" is thrown.
Current Badge Hunter: Plot Device (Rad/Thermal/Dark) - 1,268 Xbox Live: Friggin Taser
King of Electricity, Lead Inmate running the Carl and Sons asylum, the "Man" behind the Establishment, Given Honor in Hat Form By Paragon City (Favorite Forum Poster 2006!), Master of Ceremonies of the Fair Use Law podcast
And snarky review nothing. I wasted an hour playing his arc in earnest. It was bad and he should feel bad. He is the one who said it was better than something someone was paid to write. He was the one who stuck his neck out. If I played the arc and it was actually *gasp* good, I would say so. But it so so isn't.
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Eva Destruction AR/Fire/Munitions Blaster
Darkfire Avenger DM/SD/Body Scrapper
Arc ID#161629 Freaks, Geeks, and Men in Black
Arc ID#431270 Until the End of the World
Actually, it was better than something someone was paid to write. For one thing, I actually *gasp* fought stuff instead of clicking past long-winded conversation after long-winded conversation. You know, fighting stuff. Like in a video game. Which this is. For another, it didn't assume anything about my character other than 1) I think Malta is bad, which is a safe assumption for anyone with superpowers and half a brain, and 2) I know stuff about the game world, Crimson, and Malta, which is a fairly safe assumption for a high-level character with half a brain.
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Thank you for showing me why you, Sam, and Venture hate these arcs. You want the world to be written as if by Venture: full of mindless power clicking and plot holes. I'm sorry that Dr. Graves dared to present *gasp* characters to you. I'm sure it must just be my snark that's keeping me from seeing that Venture's "Generic Kung Fu Hero From Oklahoma That Exists Only To be Mind Controlled, Rescued, And Jailed" is as great and as deep a character as Crosscut or Dollface.
Current Badge Hunter: Plot Device (Rad/Thermal/Dark) - 1,268 Xbox Live: Friggin Taser
King of Electricity, Lead Inmate running the Carl and Sons asylum, the "Man" behind the Establishment, Given Honor in Hat Form By Paragon City (Favorite Forum Poster 2006!), Master of Ceremonies of the Fair Use Law podcast
The "official" comment thread for "Blowback" can be found here. Interested parties may compare Taser's complaints to those of prior reviewers. Or, of course, play the arc themselves.
Taser's complaints contain the following factual errors:
- The arc is flagged as Heroic alignment.
- None of the mobs in the custom Malta sub-faction are "Anti-Matter" clones. One of them does use the same antenna detail, though.
- Bluehawk Avenger is never described as having been brainwashed. It is made explict that Malta did their usual number on her: they ruined her life and left her nowhere to go but into their service. Even if she were brainwashed, such is also part of Malta's MO per canon.
- The player is not "railroaded" into working with Vanguard. Vanguard troops show up in Act II but operate autonomously. You're simply not allowed to shoot them, just like when you're walking through the RWZ.
- Nowhere in the canon is it established that superheroes are only found in Paragon City and its environs. Quite the contrary.
- Ms. Werner is a female model (verified). I hand-picked all hostage models after we got the memory allotment increase as the "random" option left something to be desired (namely randomness).
- The custom Malta sub-faction is noticably weaker than the standard due to its lack of Sappers and stock Titans. The main faction wins the majority of battle details in acts IV and V.
- Malta Enigma Silver officers 2-0 and 6-3 do not appear in the arc prior to Act V. They are not available to defeat in Act IV.
- The Rikti invasion zone event only takes place during "periods of dimensional instability" (i.e. when the plot demands and/or the devs feel like it). The Rikti can't penetrate the War Walls at will. If they could Paragon City would be gone in hours.
It is my contention that Taser played through the arc as quickly as possible, only scanning the text for typos and potential bon mots he could quote out of context.
Current Blog Post: "Why I am an Atheist..."
"And I say now these kittens, they do not get trained/As we did in the days when Victoria reigned!" -- T. S. Eliot, "Gus, the Theatre Cat"
The "official" comment thread for "Blowback" can be found here. Interested parties may compare Taser's complaints to those of prior reviewers. Or, of course, play the arc themselves.
Taser's complaints contain the following factual errors:
It is my contention that Taser played through the arc as quickly as possible, only scanning the text for typos and potential bon mots he could quote out of context. |
Current Badge Hunter: Plot Device (Rad/Thermal/Dark) - 1,268 Xbox Live: Friggin Taser
King of Electricity, Lead Inmate running the Carl and Sons asylum, the "Man" behind the Establishment, Given Honor in Hat Form By Paragon City (Favorite Forum Poster 2006!), Master of Ceremonies of the Fair Use Law podcast
See, this is why I don't have my own (very old) Architect arcs in my signature and why I don't hold them up as examples of great writing - because they really aren't. About the only time I cite my own work is to prove the point that you CAN have a story arc without a contact that still works just fine within the game's mechanics without putting thoughts in your head.
In short, I hide my arcs because I fear the criticism
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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In short, I hide my arcs because I fear the criticism |
I fear Taser even less.
Current Blog Post: "Why I am an Atheist..."
"And I say now these kittens, they do not get trained/As we did in the days when Victoria reigned!" -- T. S. Eliot, "Gus, the Theatre Cat"
I don't fear criticism. It's an important part of improving your skills.
I fear Taser even less. |
Why is your thread devoid of characterization or story? Why does even your explanation for Generic Avenger's motives make little to no sense and certainly aren't explained in the arc itself? Why did you overload tiny maps with glowies and then select to have them all spawn in the same section of the map?
Why do the Rikti want to attack Boomtown and Steel Canyon? That's never explained. Why would Malta work with the Rikti in the first place? That's never explained other than a generic 'villains working together' handwave cliche. Why would Crimson call in Vanguard instead of Longbow, who he has worked for?
I played the arc normally, even taking extra time to read all bios of the characters and the clues, as well as Crimson's dialogue. It is all full of either cliched action movie lines stolen from other sources, second rate plot devices you would see in a fill-in issue of X-Men if Chris Claremont caught a cold, or handwaved excuses instead of actual storytelling.
As a story, this arc isn't even on par with the official City of Heroes comics when Mr. Troy Hickman ain't writing, let alone Dr. Graves.
But keep defending it. I now know the bar you set for yourself is quite low and your sense of self worth is very inflated.
Current Badge Hunter: Plot Device (Rad/Thermal/Dark) - 1,268 Xbox Live: Friggin Taser
King of Electricity, Lead Inmate running the Carl and Sons asylum, the "Man" behind the Establishment, Given Honor in Hat Form By Paragon City (Favorite Forum Poster 2006!), Master of Ceremonies of the Fair Use Law podcast
@Golden Girl
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